Show me what you consider to be "vile and foul behaviour".

Yugi22 if you must mention my handle and comment on my posts, then it's incumbent that you post your comments specific to my posts. That is, hit the "quote" button to my posts and then make your comments.

Anyway, I observe your trolling and you seem to be picking a fight with me. Unlike you, I can take it. If you really want to have a fight with me then start a thread and let's go. 

Touchy touchy, I see that you loveBurnham so much and think that he is abig hero and so feel hurt when any one tells the TRUTH.

Even your examples show who Burnham liked.  Lazy and corrupt people who were totally incompetent, behaved like little hitlers and were too busy drinking and impregnating little girls to be doing their jobs.  How many of them did he fire.  And look how many competent black professionals literally had to flee Guyana for their lives.  Many settling in the Caribbean where their skills and intellect were much admired.

Chief the black middle class FLED under Burnham.  These being the very people who would have most benefitted if he was really helping blacks to overcome their disastrous history, as they certainly had the skills, education and work ethic to apply themselves to the opportunities available.

But who did Burnham like.  RABBI WASHINGTON!!!!

Maybe you are an Indian so you did not know the fear that INDEPENDENT minded blacks had.  If you didnt jump when Burnham said jump, he sent some YSM idiot to go deal with you, screaming that "comrade you have a colonial mentaility".  There were many senior civil servants who were TERRIFIED of their messengers who were big YSM people (thats how they got their jobs).  What an incentive to offer.  Be unambitious and lazy and disinterested in improving one's self but onky having an interest in screaming about the Kabaka.  And thats helping blacks???

Yes Chief thats what blacks need to think Burnham for.  Do nothing all day but carry news and get a home in one of Burnham's housing schemes.

Black people inherited a culture from slavery which fostered consumerism and not investing and planning for the future.  Clearly people who were chattel and had no control over their lives had no ability to plan ahead.

After slavery ended blacks moved to become farmers and small business people.  Indeed many blacks were property owners and by the 1920 40% of those allowed to0 vote were black, in line with their share of the population.  If you were landless you couldnt vote.

Despite this blacks in the colonial era encountered difficulties ESPECIALLY in Guyana and Trinidad.  The kids of the farmers became teachers, nurses, etc, looking for xecure employment and developing disrespect for farming and small business ownership.  Why.  Because that is how blacks became middle class in colonial Guyana.  The ones who remained farmers mostly remained poor.

This is unlike islands like Grenada, Jamaica and even Barbados, where a viable black business/farmer class began to emerge.  

Many a middle aged black person can tell you of older relatives looking at them  with concern if they aspired to be anything else other than a doctor, lawyer, teacher, nurse, civil servant.  Their experiences taught them that blacks were bound to fail if they tried anything else.

.Did Burnham build on the limited success of the farmers in Buxton and the other villages, who held on, despite all the problems that they suffered at the hands of Bookers, etc?  NO!

Did Burnham try to encourage and assist our AfroGuyanese tradesmen (who were renowned all over the Caribbean for their skills) to develop businesses, rather than remaining employees or petty traders?  NO!!!

So who are the contractors in Guyana today when 50 years ago blacks had a virtual monopoly on the trades?

If he wanted to help blacks he would have helped them emerge from their fear of risk, bring them back to the 1840s when they aspired to be INDEPENDENT people, not tied to govt and other low risk jobs.  HE DID NOT.  What was bad about blacks, that we inherited under slavery ande in the colonial era when the planters were determined that we fail, he made WORSE, because Burnham wanted to ensure control by making blacks feel TOTALLY DEPENDENT on him.

If Guyana had the black small business/farming class that Jamaica had there is no way that blacks would have fallen for his foolishness.

Sorry Chief BURNHAM DESTROYED AFROGUYANESE and if you knew the history of these people, which you do not, and if you were not so mired in your devotion to Burnham you would know this.

Also thank God that Cheddi didnt continue to rule after 1964.  With his socialist nonsense you would have seen Indians reduced to the same dependency that blacks were reduced to by the colonial rulers and then by Burnham.  He would have told the children of rice farmers to go learn Marxist nonsense in Moscow and get a civil service job.

As an AfroGuyanese I have NOTHING to be graeful to the KING KONG for.  Every thing that Walter Rodney said about Burnham was true.  Ask yourself whether pan Africanists like Eusi, Rodney, or David Hinds would have become anti PNC if the PNC was help blacks.  NO!!!!!!

CaribJ

With every thing that you have written, you are still to prove that blacks were not favored over other races under Burnham.  That is my point plain and simple, blacks were favored over other races and they did not make good use of it!!

You ignored and fail to adress the points I made about all the free houses and cars 9among many other things) that was handed to them by Burnham.

Why did you think Burnham placed round pegs in square holes? He did that because he wanted his party folks to get jobs and you are not a dunce, you are fully aware who made up 95% of his party.

Now to adress some of the other issues that you raised. You being a blackman does not mean that you know black history more than a non black, that is wishful thinking.

The intelectual blacks remained quiet when Burnham started with his madness because many of thier kith and kin benefitted from party paracmountcy policies. Similarly that all the black Carribean leaders remained quiet to the atrocities  of the Burnham regime except to the Barbados Prime Minister. When Burnham declared himself King after the rigged referendum then a few of them start bolting to greener pastures. Your are correct to name Eusi Kwayana and only one other person who was opposed to Burnham, for that it what is was, just a handful and I repeat just a handful of blacks were vocal against Burnham atrocities of the early 70's. 

The exodus of profesional  blacks and all other nationalities started under Burnham but increased  increased significantly under the PPP and in the 90's. Reason being Guyana could not and still up to this day, compete with higher  wages that Carribean countries offer to teachers, nurses and other professionals.

CaribJ you are preaching to the choir for I am convinced that Jagan would have done worse that Burnham when it come to his Communist masters.

Finally let me make this point, blacks are hard working just like any other race. They have the same ambitions and aspirations as other Guyanese and that is very visible with the prosperity of Afro Guyanese here in North America and other places they settled at. That is not the contention and never will it be in my books.

My contention is, during the early days of the  PNC REGIME they failed to speak out  because of the milk,  more importanly, they spilled the milk that was  handed to them by The Kabaka.

1.  Many Caribbean heads spoke out against Burnham.  The PM of Dominica did.  Errol Barrow did.  He said that he is not like Burnham so if the Bajans do not want him he will leave.  As did others.

Many of them were trying to get the CARICOM Secretariat taken out of Guyana.

Now did they do this loudly?  Well do they criticize the PPP loudly today even though they have no respect for them?

Guyanese were roundly harrassed all over the Caribbean in the 70s and called stupid and docile because of what they saw us allowing Burnham to do.

Dont know where you got that idea that the Caribbean supported Burnham.  Indeed Eric Williams had the utmost contempt for him.  Burnham's only friend was Eric Gairy.

2.  I guess you never heard the saying that it is better to teach a man how to fish as he will eat every day, than to give him fish.  Given teh history of blacks in Guyana Burnham needed to teach them how to fish.  He needed to tell them that they couldnt remain a dependent people.  That they needed to build on their skills.

Burnham did NOT.  Square pegs in round holes.  Since when does rewarding the incompetent help.  Not only does it provide a disincentive for people to excel, but when these incompetents mess up they do serious damage, and EVERY ONE suiffered, most so those most dependent on the govt when it becomes unable to hand out goodies to unproductive people.

So the black middle class started to leave after 1973.  As I told you many Caribbean regional institutions were very heavily staffed by Guyanese, almost all of them black.

How did that help blacks?  What Burnham taught them was thatr all you had to do is be a party hack, and you will get every thing.  No need to work. No need to seek an education.  No need to upgrade one's skills.

Burnham's legacy?  Before him blacks respected education and dominated the skilled trades.  You know full well what the current condition of blacks is,this being a legacy of giving out fish to the lazy and abusing those blacks who refused to bend to his will. 

So now there is the PPP which hates blacks, but blacks remained dependent on govt, thanks to Burnham.  The PPP is quite happy with this.  A cowed population, terrified of losing their jobs so they shoot down and kill their own if ordered to do so.

 3.  By the time the PPP came in the black middle class had already left.  This is why Hoyte had to play footsie with Indians, and being called Desi Persaud, because there were few competent blacks left, most having fled by 1990.

So if these blacks, most of whom fled under Burnham, are doing so well, not only in teh USA, but are the back bone of most of the regional institutions why the failure under Burnham.

Because Burnham chased out these productive people and hung out with Rabbi Washington, Lumumba and the other thugs who have now fled to the PPP.  AfroGuyanese villages are like black inner cities in the USA.  They suffer because of black flight (the most talented blacks fleeing), in the case of Guyana, thanks to Fat Boy.

There is not one good thing that I can say about Burnham, except that he saved Guyana from becoming Cuba by keeping Cheddi out until the world changed and he had to ditch communism.

More nonsense!! You are one contradictory guy! Am I reading your racist rant correct?  "By the time the PPP came in the black middle class had already left.  This is why Hoyte had to play footsie with Indians".

1. So you are saying  the black middle class is better to use  before   Indians and  Portuguese  in the same category.

You see how you can expose your racist self.

Now let me educate you, both Forbes Burnham and Desmond Hoyte utilized  and surrounded themselves with the best Indian brains. Forbes had a master who wrote the dictator constitution that the PPP is making use of today. It was written by Sir SHridath Raphal. In addition there was a string of legal brains from The Luckhoos to Cammie Ramsaroop , Sase Naraine, and Dr SHahbudeen, just to name a few . These were not ordinary men Ramphal moved on became Commonwealth Secratary gENERAL whilst Dr SHAHABUDEEN BECAME A WORLD COURT JUDGE.

Burnham also had a few mixed and Portuguese folks in his inner circle  who served in the field of culture and business. You want to hear inside story well let me tell you.It was an  open secret at Congress place, (and Forbes used to cuss their  ass) that the Government Corporations that was headed by Indians were doing much better than when headed by blacks. You ever heard of Yusi Persaud?  Burnham tried with his people and when he was nearing the end he knew that they failed him. He also knew that there would be some ungrateful blacks like yourself. In your heart you were happy that a black man was ruling  but yet you turn around and cuss the man. As of this day you are still annoyed that there is not a black man as President, you do not care if he belongs to the racist PPP BUT AS LONG AS HE IS A BLACK MAN.

As for President Desmond Hoyte he got rid of all the  square pegs that was there because of party paramountcy.  Hoyte barricaded himself with the top of the crop Indian businessmen and attorneys. hOYTE HAD FROM SAWMILL TYCOON tOOLSIE pERSAUD TO aTTORNEY jAILLAL kISSOON, JUST TO NAME A FEW. hence the  rapid progress of turning around the economy in such a short time from 1985 to 1992.. Hoyte started to clean house of party people( today the PPP did worse and  refilled the house with their party boys)  before he succumbed to the inevitable free and fair elections of 1992.

So stop your racist  bull crap, that because black middle class migrated that is why Hoyte turned to Indians.

Carib, you are a congenital liar. You picked the of the wrong Heads of State to foist your lies here. Let's take the PM of Dominica Eugenia Charles. When asked to comment about the rigged elections in Guyana she said, " A rigged election is better then no elections at all." As for Errol Barrow he was one of Burnham's closest friends and he uttered not a single word of criticism against Burnham. 'As did others' means other Heads of State also criticised Burnham while he was in power. Please tell us who they were. Look how he is going to wiggle!  

Chief your love for Burnham is preventing you from seeing CaribNY's points.  For African Guyanese these points are very troubling indeed.  If we look we can clearly see that Indian economic power grew under Burnham. It grew to such an extent that Indian families like the Kissons, Beharrys and the Persauds dominated entire economic sectors of Guyanese economy at the time of Burnham's death. That economic power only grew even more with Hoyte as these Indian families expanded into other sectors and started buying up state monopolies.. For the majority of African Guyanese there were no African Kissons, Beharrys and Persauds families just a bunch of wage earners depending on the goodwill of their bosses at the end of the month.  If I were an African Guyanese I would also be pissed out of my mind.

I have my issues with Chief, but on this, especially the highlighted, I agree 100%.  I always said, I wished we (Indians) had an "Indian" Burnham.  The closest we came thus far is the honorable Bharat Jagdeo however, I don't think he could match Burnham.

Blacks like Caribj cuss Burnham, but that man tried his best with Afros just to be let down time and time again.  Had Burnham done half for Indians as he did for Blacks, Guyana might have been a better place.

Baseman here is where we part company. Guyana does not need a Burnham nor a  Jagdeo, we need a leader who can be there for the benefit of every Guyanese. Both Burnham and Jagdeo legacy of taking care of their own is poor leadership.

Your mentality is "awee time now" and that is a vicious cycle my friend.

My reason to get involve with Carib J is not about which race is better. In my heart of hearts and I pray that Guyanese can see beyond race when it comes to electing a Gov't.

True, but we ain't gatt dat.  The one we had CBJ was more a Commie nut.  Put it this way, as they say, "wenn yuh ain's gatt mammy, yuh nurse granny".  Under an "Indian Burnham", Guyana will flourish and rising tides lift all ships.  So, until Jesus Christ or Guyana's Mandela or Gandhi comes, we take the lesser of the "evils" on offer.

I agree with Baseman and the Chief.  There is a very large group of middle class Afros in Guyana and the Caribbean that have some serious hate for Burnham.  They hate him so much that they cannot possibly hate him any more.  I don't know what more Burnham could have done to help Afros in Guyana.  The man had free education from primary to University.  He had land to the peasant programs where anyone who is poor and wanted to be a farmer can get a plot of leased land to farm.

If Burnham wanted he could have played an opportunistic disguised puppet yes man role with Cheddie and Janet Jagan and bid his time in  pampered luxury as others did and eventually succeed them as he was clearly the recognized deputy leader of the PPP party but he did not.  Like the Chief said rightly or wrongly he stood up for his policies.  I simply do not know what more Burnham could have done to help Afros in Guyana and for that matter Afros internationally.  For example, it was Burnham who allowed some ANC members to use Guyana Diplomatic Passports to travel internationally. 

Recently I heard a Pan Africanist say that Burnham enslaved Afros in Guyana in a type of modern slavery.  For christ sake man I do not know what more that Burnham could have done to help Afros.   

They hate Burnham, because under the Burnham rule, they cannot point to the "Indian".  However, now there is the "Indian" boogie man in the PPP.

That is why I love Trinidad and Tobago. Pan Africans are there but they are not allowed to thrive.

Trinis are Trinis and do not vote race.

u most certainly cannot be serious

Dead serious!! Iam not saying that racial tensions do not exist but I am saying for the most part Trinis vote for issues and not race.

A good example is the current Prime Minister Kamla Bissesar. She could not have won without carrying Tobago, and who do you think live in Tobago, Blacks.

When will Guyanese Indians vote for a black candidate?

the overload of battam house ignorance, deeply seated racism, racist wish fulfillment and wishful thinking on this thread is deeply depressing

all this . . . masquerading as 'historical analysis' by big men who really should 'know' better

They certainly do however, Guyana and Trini have different histories and as such the national psyche is different.  With the numerical advantage, Afros in Trini never needed rigging and the military to preserve themselves in power.  This also means, some have no fear is switching and letting an Indian rule from time to time.

In Guyana, like everywhere else, Afros want power and without the numerical advantage, they are willing to do anything to achieve that.  For this reason they turn to violence and intimidation of the Indian masses to get their way.  In other words, if you "c00l1es" don't let us rule, we will loot, burn, rape, murder and plunder and make life unbearable.  The Trini Indians, like the vast majority of Indians everywhere, don't carry that mind-set, so Trini remained a relative peaceful place, politically speaking.

You are correct on one thing, the racial divide in Guyana is depressing. By not admitting that it was practiced by Burnham  and more so today it is more blatant under the PPP , YOU ARE contributing to the problem in Guyana.

I see you fail to respond to my comments about  Trinis not voting along racial lines.

The Afros practice racism forcing the Indians to reciprocate.

Nonsense!!! So where does it end?

This is the PPP line and they continue to feed that to their supporters. In the mean time Guyanese are leaving and the country suffers.

Decipher my previous post, then come back with some thoughts.

2 things:

(i) your 1st paragraph has NOTHING to do with anything I have written; and

(ii) let's just agree to disagree on Trinidad & Tobago politics . . . i really have no time for opportunistic, simple-minded 'analyses'

this must be the perfect thread for u . . . set-ups all ova de place with opportunities galore fuh wash yuh mouth on de blackman demon

heaven fuh u bai . . . keep on doing what u do so well

Redux,

Bottom line

1.  the there is a major racial problem that exists in Guyana. Screaming  like Carib J that blacks were not given preference by Burnham is totally inaccurate.

2 You  like CaribJ is annoyed when the facts stare you directly in your face hence you deemed it as being incorrect.

3. Because of what happened under the pnc AND bURNHAM, Today men like Baseman and others are justifying the actions of the PPP.

4. REMEMBER THOSE ' wHO FORGETS THE PAST IS CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT"

5. You are probably ashamed of what the PNC DID so when it is repeated you want to say it is incorrect.

Absolutely not.  Could you refute my claims with credible and grounded facts and scenarios.

Don't skip my post, address it then talk Guyana "scenario" rather than beating up on the PPP and Guyana's Indian majority.

Blacks did benefit unfairly under Burnham, but I don't believe it was because of his policies but rather the misuse of those policies by the people under him. The same way that the PPP is being accused of misusing policies to benefit friends and family. 

=========

Chief: "Screaming like Carib J that blacks were not given preference by Burnham is totally inaccurate."

========= 

hmmm . . . is that where u go when u have nothing . . . making stuff up about me because I point out your nonsense and poorly concealed racism?

LYING is not argument Chief; u apparently need to learn that; and u don't know me, so I suggest u quit guessing what i am or am not "ashamed" of. That way you (like baseman) will avoid making an even more complete jackass of yourself

Redux,

As you correctly stated I do not know you and rarely do I follow your posts.

My one beef is that you are claiming that I am being racist for pointing out that blacks did had an advantage over other races during the Burnham era.

u rite bai . . . how could I (anyone) "refute" this:

========

baseman [paraphrasing blackman]: "if you "c00l1es" don't let us rule, we will loot, burn, rape, murder and plunder and make life unbearable."

========

no "credible and grounded facts and scenarios" exist to rebut such 'eloquence'

 probably find that phrase in his Bible.

u know full well that I made no such claim . . . i actually agree that Afro-Guyanese were 'privileged' in Burnham's socialist setup . . . making up the base of his 'vanguard party' and all

so try again dude . . . that's not it

To a point you are right.  But the method of the top-bass to hold power did not escape the masses.  Tone at the top becomes the guiding principle.

Chiefsta, wah happen, my post to hot to handle?

I think I have had my say on this issue and let's move on.

Cain your topic took several twists and turns, vintage GNI.

Hahaha....YOU chicken sh1t.  Address me Trini-Guyana point nah.  You know the truth and running under a rock....loser.

I HAVE MADE MY POINTS NO NEED TO ' GOTHAY DHALL"

Not "GOTHAY DHALL", you are a CHICKEN SH!T.  Address my post.  You like to cuss PPP and Indians like me and when you are presented with irrefutable evidence you run and scurry for cover like a rat.