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FM
Former Member

Arguments vary as APNU, AG challenge validity of No Confidence proceedings

New Amsterdam resident Compton Reid, left, and attorney Robert Corbin in the High Court [News Room photo] 

Attorneys for Joseph Harmon, General Secretary of the Coalition APNU and the Attorney General Basil Williams submitted conflicting arguments before the Chief Justice (ag), Roxane George-Wiltshire Thursday.

The Chief Justice was hearing oral submissions on a case brought by New Amsterdam resident Compton Reid, which effectively challenges the validity of the No Confidence vote.

Reid moved to the High Court seeking orders to set aside the No Confidence vote of December 21 on the grounds that the vote of Charrandass Persaud was invalid because he is a citizen both of Guyana and Canada.

In oral arguments before the Chief Justice Mr Persaud’s Attorney, Sanjeev Datadin, argued for the Court to strike out the application.

Attorney for Mr Reid, Senior Counsel Neil Boston, said that Persaud did not qualify to be in the National Assembly because, according to Article 155 (1) of the Constitution, “by virtue of his own act” acknowledged allegiance and adherence to a foreign power, namely Canada.

Boston argued that Persaud became a citizen of Canada in 1998, renewed his passport three times and used his Canadian passport to travel in and out of Guyana.

Therefore, he contended that Persaud’s vote has to be deemed invalid. In such a case, he said there were only 32 valid votes in favour of the motion and 32 votes against. Once there is an equal number of votes in the House, any action is not carried.

Boston, therefore, argued that when the Speaker announced that the motion had been carried, he was acting in contravention of the Constitution, since Article 106 (6) of the Constitution requires a majority vote for a No Confidence motion to be passed.

Boston further argued that because Persaud was on a list of the Coalition APNU+AFC, there is no such thing as a conscience vote; he claimed that Persaud was duty bound to vote for the party which placed him in the House.

Boston concluded that the proceedings of the House were valid until the “Yes” vote of Persaud.

He argued that “it is a notional thing” which says that automatically when he voted, Persaud ceased to a Member of Parliament.

The arguments of Boston were adopted by Mayo Roberston, attorney for the Attorney General Basil Williams.

Attorney for APNU General Secretary Roysdale Forde, however, had a different argument on the validity of proceedings in the House.

He agreed that if Mr Persaud is disqualified from being a member of the National Assembly, then not just his No Confidence vote but all the votes he made in the three and a half years he sat in the House should also be null and void.

He agreed too that if Persaud is disqualified from being a Member of the House on the basis of his dual citizenship, then that would also affect others in the National Assembly who also hold dual citizenship.

The Chief Justice alerted Attorney Forde to the fact that the consequences of her decision would have a ripple effect, and Forde acknowledged this.

Persaud’s Attorney, Sanjeev Datadin argued that since the action brought by Mr Reid specifically challenges the legality of the presence of Mr Persaud in the National Assembly, what must be considered is the specific constitutional provisions that allow for challenging the election of a Member to the House.

He argued that questions regarding the qualification of any member of the National Assembly can only be done in the manner prescribed by Article 163 of the Constitution, namely, the National Assembly (Validity of Elections) Act and the accompanying rules.

That Act, he said, provides for any challenge to be done by way of an elections petition and this was not done.

In any case, the time for presenting such a petition to the Court is the subject of Section 5 of the said Act, which states “an election petition shall be presented within twenty-eight days after the results of the election” are published.

Therefore, Datadin argued that since over three and a half years have passed, the election of Persaud cannot now be questioned.

He said the only action that can be taken if Persaud was deemed to be disqualified from the House is for the Attorney General to fine him $50 for every day he sat in the House.

Further, he argued that Persaud is no longer a Member of the National Assembly, having been recalled on January 3 and the proceedings were filed in the Court on January 4. Therefore, he said there was no “live” issue to be debated.

In addition, Datadin argued that Persaud was an active member of the House when the vote was taken since his party did not recall him nor did he seek to no longer be a member of the House.

Even if the dual citizenship arguments were proven true and Persaud’s vote was deemed null and void, Datadin argued that the constitution preserves the proceedings.

As to the remedy, Datadin said Persaud can be prevented, in the future, from sitting in the House as a dual citizen, but the court cannot unwind the actions of Parliament.

Anil Nandlall, Attorney for Opposition Leader Bharrat Jagdeo, argued that the case should never have been taken to the court and that the Application by Reid was making a mockery of the Court.

He submitted to the Court similar arguments by Datadin on what should happen if Persaud’s election to the National Assembly is validated.

He noted that Article 165(2) of the Constitution provides an “omnibus provision” to validate any proceedings in the National Assembly in which a person not entitled to be present at or participate in, does so.

Article 165(2) of the Constitution states: “The Assembly may act notwithstanding any vacancy in its membership (including any vacancy not filled when the Assembly first meets after the commencement of this Constitution or after any dissolution of Parliament) and the presence or participation of any person not entitled to be present at or to participate in the proceedings of the Assembly shall not invalidate those proceedings.”

As such, Nandlall forcefully submitted that nowhere in the Constitution is there a provision which expressly or by implication stipulate that a consequence of a determination that a candidate was ineligible for election to the National Assembly is that his participation was ineffectual and unlawful.

If this were the case, he said then all the spending of the five national budgets passed with Persaud’s vote would have all been unlawful.

“The framers of the Constitution appreciated that the result of such a consequence would be disastrous.

“It would undermine the rule of law and bring about chaos and public disorder.

“The consequences of a determination that all votes cast by an ineligible member are invalid was fully appreciated by the framers of the Constitution who not only saved their validity by Article 165(2) but prescribed that such challenges should be made within the time prescribed and form set out in the National Assembly (Validity of Elections) Act, (namely 28 dates),” Nandlall stated.

https://newsroom.gy/2019/01/24...fidence-proceedings/

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Nehru posted:

PNC dummies and their equivalent GNI filth heads. Laad ah mercy, stupid as stupid gets!!!!!

Jagdeo was given ill advise by Anil Nandlall when Granger appointed (fit and proper) Justice Patterson as Chairman of Gecom. That was according to the constitution by the same judge. Since the coalition took office, understanding the constitution has become a challenge for many legal minds of Guyana. Constitutions were written in ways to be interpreted differently. Since we do not have a constitutional scholar, we have to rely heavily on the supreme court to decide. The fate of the PPP is a 50/50 chance. 

FM
Prince posted:
Nehru posted:

PNC dummies and their equivalent GNI filth heads. Laad ah mercy, stupid as stupid gets!!!!!

Jagdeo was given ill advise by Anil Nandlall when Granger appointed (fit and proper) Justice Patterson as Chairman of Gecom. That was according to the constitution by the same judge. Since the coalition took office, understanding the constitution has become a challenge for many legal minds of Guyana. Constitutions were written in ways to be interpreted differently. Since we do not have a constitutional scholar, we have to rely heavily on the supreme court to decide. The fate of the PPP is a 50/50 chance. 

You want to tell GNI that no one in the world can decipher Guyana's constitution? I don't think it's is written in Aramaic.

FM
skeldon_man posted:

he claimed that Persaud was duty bound to vote for the party which placed him in the House.

Look story hey!!! Looks like Massa days are back.

His argument runs contrary to the spirit of the constitution. If one is duty-bound to his/her party, then why does the constitution have clauses covering NCVs and the consequences. This means you can never have an NCV, except a general election. 

Dem bannas in all sorts of contortions!  Fuss was 33 muss equal 34 fuh 33 matter, then dual citizen vote don’t count, now dem seh constitution talking wid forked tongue!

FM
Baseman posted:
skeldon_man posted:

he claimed that Persaud was duty bound to vote for the party which placed him in the House.

Look story hey!!! Looks like Massa days are back.

His argument runs contrary to the spirit of the constitution. If one is duty-bound to his/her party, then why does the constitution have clauses covering NCVs and the consequences. This means you can never have an NCV, except a general election. 

Dem bannas in all sorts of contortions!  Fuss was 33 muss equal 34 fuh 33 matter, then dual citizen vote don’t count, now dem seh constitution talking wid forked tongue!

It seems like that "duty bound" statement is like one coming from China's Communist Party or refer back to the days of slavery.

FM
Baseman posted:
skeldon_man posted:

he claimed that Persaud was duty bound to vote for the party which placed him in the House.

Look story hey!!! Looks like Massa days are back.

His argument runs contrary to the spirit of the constitution. If one is duty-bound to his/her party, then why does the constitution have clauses covering NCVs and the consequences. This means you can never have an NCV, except a general election. 

Dem bannas in all sorts of contortions!  Fuss was 33 muss equal 34 fuh 33 matter, then dual citizen vote don’t count, now dem seh constitution talking wid forked tongue!

The "No Confidence Motion" article was added to the Constitution by the PPP, that article should have been more precise. The 1980 Constitution is a documented that  is not very clear, when an article is challenged, one can go from one article to another to determine the out come.

When the No Confidence Motion was brought  against the PPP by the AFC. Anil Nandlall was asked in a television interview, what happens if the motion is passed, he said the Government stays and hold Election in 90 days. He said nothing about Government resigns.

Django
Django posted:
Baseman posted:
skeldon_man posted:

he claimed that Persaud was duty bound to vote for the party which placed him in the House.

Look story hey!!! Looks like Massa days are back.

His argument runs contrary to the spirit of the constitution. If one is duty-bound to his/her party, then why does the constitution have clauses covering NCVs and the consequences. This means you can never have an NCV, except a general election. 

Dem bannas in all sorts of contortions!  Fuss was 33 muss equal 34 fuh 33 matter, then dual citizen vote don’t count, now dem seh constitution talking wid forked tongue!

The "No Confidence Motion" article was added to the Constitution by the PPP, that article should have been more precise. The 1980 Constitution is a documented that  is not very clear, when an article is challenged, one can go from one article to another to determine the out come.

When the No Confidence Motion was brought  against the PPP by the AFC. Anil Nandlall was asked in a television interview, what happens if the motion is passed, he said the Government stays and hold Election in 90 days. He said nothing about Government resigns.

I don't think he meant that they stay and conduct business as normal. They did not do that. The constitution says resign and stay until the next election. Means no business as normal. A resignation means no power.

FM
skeldon_man posted:
Django posted:
Baseman posted:
skeldon_man posted:

he claimed that Persaud was duty bound to vote for the party which placed him in the House.

Look story hey!!! Looks like Massa days are back.

His argument runs contrary to the spirit of the constitution. If one is duty-bound to his/her party, then why does the constitution have clauses covering NCVs and the consequences. This means you can never have an NCV, except a general election. 

Dem bannas in all sorts of contortions!  Fuss was 33 muss equal 34 fuh 33 matter, then dual citizen vote don’t count, now dem seh constitution talking wid forked tongue!

The "No Confidence Motion" article was added to the Constitution by the PPP, that article should have been more precise. The 1980 Constitution is a documented that  is not very clear, when an article is challenged, one can go from one article to another to determine the out come.

When the No Confidence Motion was brought  against the PPP by the AFC. Anil Nandlall was asked in a television interview, what happens if the motion is passed, he said the Government stays and hold Election in 90 days. He said nothing about Government resigns.

I don't think he meant that they stay and conduct business as normal. They did not do that. The constitution says resign and stay until the next election. Means no business as normal. A resignation means no power.

There was no NCV when the motion handed to Parliament. Ramouthar  used his Presidential power and prorogue Parliament, to stay in government, finally he buckled and 2015 Elections were held.

At that time i don't  think  he understand the article, that was his short answer, he could have explained in more detail. I can post the interview, don't think it matters currently.

Django
Last edited by Django
skeldon_man posted:
Django posted:
Baseman posted:
skeldon_man posted:

he claimed that Persaud was duty bound to vote for the party which placed him in the House.

Look story hey!!! Looks like Massa days are back.

His argument runs contrary to the spirit of the constitution. If one is duty-bound to his/her party, then why does the constitution have clauses covering NCVs and the consequences. This means you can never have an NCV, except a general election. 

Dem bannas in all sorts of contortions!  Fuss was 33 muss equal 34 fuh 33 matter, then dual citizen vote don’t count, now dem seh constitution talking wid forked tongue!

The "No Confidence Motion" article was added to the Constitution by the PPP, that article should have been more precise. The 1980 Constitution is a documented that  is not very clear, when an article is challenged, one can go from one article to another to determine the out come.

When the No Confidence Motion was brought  against the PPP by the AFC. Anil Nandlall was asked in a television interview, what happens if the motion is passed, he said the Government stays and hold Election in 90 days. He said nothing about Government resigns.

I don't think he meant that they stay and conduct business as normal. They did not do that. The constitution says resign and stay until the next election. Means no business as normal. A resignation means no power.

Exactly, that’s what Anil meant, and BJ relate this to Granger at their meeting. 

Every law abiding professionals in Guyana and internationally share the same sentiment. 

@Django: 

No Government can add to the constitution any amendments without  a 2/3 majority- that means they have to get the support from the opposition. 

FM
Dave posted:
skeldon_man posted:
 

I don't think he meant that they stay and conduct business as normal. They did not do that. The constitution says resign and stay until the next election. Means no business as normal. A resignation means no power.

Exactly, that’s what Anil meant, and BJ relate this to Granger at their meeting. 

Every law abiding professionals in Guyana and internationally share the same sentiment. 

@Django: 

No Government can add to the constitution any amendments without  a 2/3 majority- that means they have to get the support from the opposition. 

You are missing what is discussed, my post is about the AFC NCM

Oww budday, don't you think i know that ?

What will the other side do if they see some loophole ?

Django
Last edited by Django
Django posted:
Dave posted:
skeldon_man posted:
 

I don't think he meant that they stay and conduct business as normal. They did not do that. The constitution says resign and stay until the next election. Means no business as normal. A resignation means no power.

Exactly, that’s what Anil meant, and BJ relate this to Granger at their meeting. 

Every law abiding professionals in Guyana and internationally share the same sentiment. 

@Django: 

No Government can add to the constitution any amendments without  a 2/3 majority- that means they have to get the support from the opposition. 

You are missing what is discussed, the post is about the AFC NCM

Oww budday, don't you think i know that ?

What will the other side do if they see some loophole ?

Ok sir 

any update on AFC PM . 

FM
Django posted:
Baseman posted:

His argument runs contrary to the spirit of the constitution. If one is duty-bound to his/her party, then why does the constitution have clauses covering NCVs and the consequences. This means you can never have an NCV, except a general election. 

Dem bannas in all sorts of contortions!  Fuss was 33 muss equal 34 fuh 33 matter, then dual citizen vote don’t count, now dem seh constitution talking wid forked tongue!

The "No Confidence Motion" article was added to the Constitution by the PPP, that article should have been more precise. The 1980 Constitution is a documented that  is not very clear, when an article is challenged, one can go from one article to another to determine the out come.

When the No Confidence Motion was brought  against the PPP by the AFC. Anil Nandlall was asked in a television interview, what happens if the motion is passed, he said the Government stays and hold Election in 90 days. He said nothing about Government resigns.

The trouble is that the Coalition isn't even prepared to do what Nandlall suggests the PPP would do.  A third of that timeframe has gone by with no action toward that from the government. I wonder if old man Patterson would have turned back up to work had that photo of him out and about not disclosed. 

FM

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