One must compare and contrast similar things to penetrate beyond the veil to understanding what they are. When we have societies so close to each other( composed of similar peoples)  and so dissimilar in it's cultural  and politics the curious mind would want to know. It is not a caring for caring sake but a caring to arrive at a cathartic moment. Comparing and contrasting here is therapy for our sick society

We need to get out of this stalemate where we fight low level race wars constantly. We can only do that with a new constitution optimized to eliminate the competition for the office of the Presidency as an ethnic based prize and opportunity to loot the state unchecked

Yes WE DO BUT we cannot achieve that when you have one Group stating that they will NEVER accept " COOLIE RULE", Target Indians when there is a protest, incite destruction, molestation and other things against Indians. When was the last time a Group of Indians targeted AfroGuyanese, beat them, rob them, molest them and worst????

I think you need to read up on the literature on conflict transformation. That is what everyone say...it is the reason the conflict exist in the first place.

The proponents are trapped into ceaseless emotional harangue instead of discussion and each have a profound sense of alienation from the other side for many "sacred" reasons. They talk at each other rather than to each other.They have essentially forgotten the needs based methodologies necessary to lift up up the community. They miss basic needs arguments and distract themselves with formulating the best negative characterization of the other. Resonance is accomplished only when people air their views with mediation. It is why the three party status is helpful for us

We have no hope remedial intervention in our society from outside. It is why we on the outside talk and advocate. The international community do not care about us except for reasons of hegemony or exploitation. We have to seek remediation among ourselves. It is no easy lift but we have to boot strap ourselves.

Look I have stated FACTS, if you don't agree or simply don't like it, that is fine. The point is you need two to tangle. All I am saying is use the history and recent incidents to go forward. We cannot just have one side bear all the burden.

Pavi, maybe you did not understand what I  seek of thee.

1. Suspend momentarily you political beliefs
2. Look at the ethnic binary voting patten in Guyana - Indians in the most part for for the party that Indians dominate and Afro-Guyanese likewise
3. See the support for a mixed-ethnic party in general but not at the polls
4. Ask yourself if this is not a disincentive for good governance.

Simple! And stop asking questions that are beneath you like if anyone is kissing Benschop's ass!

Look, I don't know how much you are on the Board, but I have always said that people will VOTE for a Party they can TRUST, a Party that can show Progress. I cannot say because the figures show a certain pattern that it is because of Race. However, I agree with you that the RACIAL DIVIDE in Guyana is NOT helpful and concrete actions are needed to eliminate the DISTRST and DISUNITY. No divided Country has ever prospered. The problem with Guyanese is that they are NOT matured enough to be divided at Politics BUT be united as builders of Guyana. Look at the US, half for Dems and half for Rep but no one will ever go against this GREAT Nation.

Great, we're getting somewhere with this. Stay with me for a little.

You said "I have always said that people will VOTE for a Party they can TRUST, a Party that can show Progress. I cannot say because the figures show a certain pattern that it is because of Race."

My follow-up question is why is it that Indians trust the PPP in so much and Afro-Guyanese so little and vioce versa for the PNC?

For Indians, it is because of 28 years of brutality and DISCRIMINATION. I cannot answer for AfroGuyanese.

Six moh years fuh mek them black ppl pay because dem hurt abbe feelings from 1968 to 1992

This ethnic pattern is real, I  do admit. No matter how much Indo-Guyanese may rail against the corruption and graft and incompetence, they will in the most part put an "X" next to the Cup. The Afro-Guyanese population either stay home (disaffection with the PNC in addition to what they see as exclusion in nation building perpetrated by the PPP), or voted along ethnic lines (though they only have a two-decades old track record to judge the PNC.

Also real is the yearning for a viable 3rd party that combines both major ethnicities (and binary means two major groups, Pavi). The AFC has had some success, but PPP supporters see their gains in a zero-sum game as taking away largely from the PPP - thus the acrimony with AFC supporters.

The question is can the AFC take more away from the PNC base while chipping away at disaffected Indo-PPP supporters, and finally corralling the soon-to-be sizable swing class of mixed ethnic voters.

As we all take as a basic premise that governance can be greatly improved and with it the nation's economic fortunes, clinging to the one you trust is indeed a big hurdle. A transcendent figure can maybe help, and I always thought that this was Moses Nagamootoo's strength. Both Trotman and Ramjattan were novices and Norton was not too far removed from the PNC epicenter. Granger has so far been tepid in a remake of the PNC to attract non-ethnic voting, and the AFC remains a work-in-progress.

If the constituents decided they want the re-elect the PPP in office for a second term, then who are you to tell them differently? Answer the question before making yourself a fool. Your personal vendetta is not even a distraction to no one.

You druggie and others are proof that Indians are racist.  You aren't doing Indians any good. 

Luckily more and more Indians are beginning to understand two things.  One is that being locked to the PPP allows that arrogant, incompetent and corrupt party to use them to grab power, and than ignore them afterwards. Secondly they understand that the number ONE problem that Guyana has is its tradition of ethnic paranoia which has meant that Guyana has wasted 60 years being run by incompetent and corrupt people, resulting in a brain drain which has been very helpful to islands like St Lucia and Antigua where some of our best staff their schools and hospitals. 

FACT: Under the PNC the onus was on blacks,  That's why Eusi, David Hinds and Walter Rodney came forward and cried out against PNC racism against Indians.  It was clear that an African elite totally dominated Guyana, and attempted to justify their behavior by catering to African ethnic paranoia, even though in the process they also destroyed Africans.

Later on when there were racist attacks against Indians again people like Hinds, Kwayana, and aso Andaiye spoke out loudly against it.

Now that the PPP behaves the same way towards blacks as the PNC did towards Indians in the 70s you scream your paranoid nonsense.  Don't you understand that your paranoid rants only deepen the African paranoia and therefore Does NOT solve the problem for either Indians nor blacks?

And yes there is sufficient bigotry in BOTH populations for any debate as to which group is more racist to look quite silly.  They both have been racist, and they both have suffered the consequences of it.

And please don't tell me that you are serious about AFC Indians soup licking blacks when we have blacks like Sam Hinds, Roger Luncheon and others engaging in the same and worse, sometimes resulting in death or injury of blacks.  That Kwame batty what ever his name is, who has on several occasions used his car as a weapon ONLY against blacks.

Clearly most Surinamers liked the connection to Holland.  Clearly the Dutch gov't was tired of it so bribed the then Suriname gov't with a massive aid package to go their merry way.  Clearly Surinamers, with an eye to Guyana, had apprehensions of what an independent Suriname would be like (and subsequent events justified their fears).  Clearly the Dutch didn't care, as they definitely didn't do anything, other than cut off aid, when Bouterse went on his rampage.

What Caribbean people need to understand is that most of these "rich" nations consider us a financial burden with our small and impoverished populations, not lucrative markets for their exporters.  The Dutch wanted Suriname gone, just as the British wish that we would stop forcing them to buy our sugar, which they can obtain more cheaply elsewhere.

The only Europeans who had a problem with independence in recent times were the French.  To be quite honest if put at a referendum, I have a suspicion that in 1965 a majority of Guyanese would have probably voted against independence.  The British didn't care what we wanted.  They wanted us gone, just as the Dutch wanted Suriname gone, precisely for the SAME reasons why the Surinamers wanted to stay.

You have ties to Suriname, you have stated a number of times.  While they certainly have their problems, and while (I am made to understand) their ethnic identities are even stronger than what we have in Guyana, they seem to have reduced the ethnic competition for power, and the paranoia which that creates.

Your views?  Is it that it isn't just African vs. Indian, but its Creole, vs. Indian vs. Maroon, vs. Javanese and these all cancel each other out, forcing them to cooperate?  I am aware that most of their parties are ethnically based, but none of them can ever win, with some superficial support from outside their core base, as happens with the PPP in Guyana and with the PNM and UNC/COP in T&T.

He was talking to Nerhu not u

For Africans it is 26 years of PPP rule (1957-1964, and 1992 until now) which they feel as been ethnically exclusionary and has resulted in widespread discrimination at all levels.

The point is that as of now the PPP holds the cards so must make the first move.  The WPA served this role in the late 70s and in the 80s where many Africans moved away from the PNC, and also openly condemned its racist treatment of Indians.  They also worked in broad coalitions to sensitize the world about what Burnham was doing, eventually forcing free and fair elections.

Its a slap in the face of these people that the PPP has turned out to be as ethnically focused and ethnically exclusionary as the PNC was under Burnham's rule, and indeed both David Hinds and Eusi Kwayana, who literally took blows for their struggle, have said exactly that.

Africans need to see Indians fighting for ethnic equality and fair treatment the same way as so many Africans did during the Burnham dictatorship.

Indeed even Trotman left the PNC in part because of its refusal to admit to its failings, and the role that it has played in fostering our ethnic paranoia.

He was beginning to raise some interesting points which is why I am asking him for his views on Suriname, which is probably even MORE ethnically polarized than we are, and with a history of abusive and corrupt gov'ts but less stuck in the morass of ethnic paranoia.

http://www.sportingnews.com/so...eadid=SOC/Twi/SNMain

This very short video (26 s.) is not about Guyana nor about this particular topic. But it is about racism. This guy's pain is evident and I can feel it. Racism hurts!

How can we be so racially minded as a People of Guyana when in many cases the people who have taught us, nursed us and prepared our food are of other ethnicities. Racists are just plain stupid.

We have to move beyond the past, beyond what blacks and indians did to each other and stop holding onto that as reasons for continued hatred and division. When we hold on to that we are feeding those politicians who thrive on ethnic support. Guyana will never move forward if the People remain ethnically divided. It's time we all become sentient beings.

My wife is from Suriname and I visit there every year since 2004, and while I can't say that I'm well versed to comment on their society, I can say this. The Indo-Surinamese retained more of their Indian-ness and yes, have stronger ethnic identities.

I have not been around much Afro-Surinamese, but the Maroons are a separate body from the coastal Afro-Surinamese. The Indonesian have their own ethnic identities also.

Yes, you are right about their ethnic voting as well, and so there always have to be alliances to form the government. Such alliances are most often bonded by graft and largesse, and the VHP party (the Indian party) always get the short end of the stick. You see the Indonesians (mostly Muslims) are not necessarily bed-fellows with the mostly hindustani VHP.

There is a distrust there too, especially after the violent rule of Boutersie in the early 80s. BTW his government was close to the PPP then as it is now.

I see. So its not that Suriname has a better system of governance since 2000 (we know that in the 80=90s it was way worse than Guyana was in the 80s, which was our low point).  Its also not that they have better inter ethnic relations, or less paranoia.

Its simply that the two non Christian Asian groups (Indians and Javanese) and the two black groups (Creoles and Maroons) are as divided in between themselves, as they are from the other side.

I have heard that much of the coalitions are based on bribery, but I guess that is to be expected.  Even in the US congressional votes are often fueled by giving people pork, to entice them to vote on more substantial issues.

Maybe when a large Brazilian Guyanese population emerges and allies itself with the Amerindians we will divide into three, rather than two, and so will not be able to harm each other as much.

With due respect to you I don't think that Guyana has the issue of the blatant bigotry that Italy has, though if I were Amerindian, I might think differently.

I think that if a Guyanese of either major race expresses the extreme bigotry to the other major race that this Afro Italian guy faced, even people from his own race would condemn him.  We have t0o many cross ethnic ties for the bigotry to be as deep.  This means that too many people can easily put themselves in the position of the other race when bigotry appears so blatant and cruel.  I cite as an example of the 90s when there were racial attacks against Indians.  Many Africans, at great risk to themselves, rescued these people.  Similar actions by Indians would be taken if an African was endangered.

So its not bigotry which fosters our ethnic paranoia.  Which isn't to say that it doesn't exist, but its not the core problem.

Our issue is at a more institutional level.  When one of the major groups is in power it uses its clout to attempt to exclude the other group from social, economic, and political opportunity.

Having said that I think that we coastal Guyanese need to examine within ourselves about how we treat Amerindians.  The easy hurling of the worst racial epithets to danyael, because he self identifies as being part Amerindian, allows filthy attitudes to emerge.  This because Amerindians are seen as defenseless so we can get away with it.  Many of us need to be brutally honest about what we communicate when we talk about "buck and people".  I hope that term is archaic and that I am dating myself as a middle aged Guyanese who left 30 years ago.

Your ill informed assessment of the political situation in Suriname is laughable to say the least. 

Suriname does have a better system of governance. They even rewrote the constitution more than once since 1975 in order to iron out sticking points that were shown to be unfair or draconian. Guyana has been ruled under the Burnham constitution since independence, even though it is peppered with numerous inequalities that are designed to enrich the ruling party and absolve them from legal address. The period between 1980 and the late 90's was marred by the military dictatorship under Bouterse. But once a civilian government was re-elected the country quickly got back onto its feet.

The population is not divided along racial lines as you are attempting to imply. People don't insult each other racially, unlike in Guyana. Neither is there any division along religious lines. The mosque and synagogue share the same land and car park. The former catholic bishop comes from a family that are Baptist. And inter-religious marriages have been part of the landscape.

The difference between the Marrons and the descendants of the emancipated blacks go back to the days of slavery. If you need a full lecture on the origins of it, just ask me and I shall educate you in it. I got the highest ever marks at college for my research in that subject.

So stop fabricating history and racial tensions in and about a country that you know next to nothing about.

Sure, Suriname has the best govt drug money can buy. Without the oil they would be worse than Haiti. 

T, that mosque is an Ahmadiya church and is considered on the periphery of mainstream Sunni Islam. In fact you may say it's heretic.

The Synagogue is hardly used. They are next to each other and not on the same land.

I wouldn't go saying there is kumbaya racial harmony there either, and you have the same dominance in the private economy and trade. It's the State entities that you may have some diversity. Their system of governance may be more transparent, yes, and racial division may not be public, but it is just underneath a calm surface. Their quality of life doesn't have the wide disparity as Guyana's and so it is kept under wraps.

Guyana should pass a legislation for all Indo-Guyanese of every class to adopt a Black man in Guyana for the suffering they've endured by the hands of all Indians. If you're an Indian who is begging to feed your children, you must obey the law to adopt a Black man and spoon feed him/her just like your own children.

Isn't this what the heading of the thread is calling for?

See no evidence that if Suriname had the demographics of Guyana they would not be stuck in the same morass.  I asserted, and Kari didnt deny, that the more complex ethnic mix in Suriname has played a role in blunting the tensions there as no one group can even consider dominating.

Indeed Kari, who is definitely not a racist, claims that despite visiting Suriname every year for the last 9 years, he has had very limited exposure to black Surinamers.  Its hardly likely that a professional living in Guyana wouldnt have exposure to a broad cross section of people. So it does appear that each ethnic group in Suriname lives more within their space than is the case in Guyana.

The Asians are divided between themselves as are the Africans.  So this means that no ethnic group accounts for more than 27%.

Compare that to Guyana where Indians are around 45% of the voters so the PPP needs only to bribe 10% of the remainder to win elections. IMPOSSIBLE in Suriname.

Dont know why you continue to rant about the Creole/Maroon tensions when I especially made no effort to determine the root causes of it.  I suspect that it is more contemporary than you imagine it to be.  Normal people dont carry hatred from 200 years ago unless there are more contemporary reasons to bolster this.

Creole Surinamers no doubt feel that they are better than Maroons, as they are an urban, much more literate group,  and think that the Maroons are primitive bushdwellers, some walking around semi naked.  Maroons no doubt blame much of their plight on the Creole dominated civil service ignoring interior dwellers.

So no need to go all the way back to the 17th century when those Maroons probably saw the slaves as people who were too self hating to trust.  Creoles are not as contemptous of the African aspects of their Creole culture than they used to be (they have preserved much more of it than have blacks in Guyana). And Maroons no longer unanimously agree that isolating themselves from the rest of the country is a good idea.

With due respect to you I really dont think that racial rants are a daily occurrence in Guyana.  More like silent suspicion which Kari reports is definitely visible in Suriname.  In Guyana Africans and Indians mistrust each other and both feel superior to teh Amerindian.

In Suriname Creoles and Indians do not trust each other, but it will not have as serious implications given that the Creole/Mixed, and the Indian population together aren't even 60% of the population.

Apparently there are other layers of distrust, with the Indians apparently thinking that the Javanese sell out to the Creole/Mixed, and the Maroons and the Amerindians feeling ignored by all.  The Maroons being more boisterous in their views (recent attacks on Brazilian and Chinese immigrants).

So maybe they revised their constitution, but day to day governance depends on assembling cross ethnic coalitions (most parties in Suriname have an ethnic base, even if each ethnic group has more than one of these) is managed through patronage and bribes.  I read this, and didnt mention this on GNI.  Kari confirmed it. 

Boutersie apparently won the most votes, but couldnt govern without a coalition.  He was best able to assemble a coalition based on a raft of patronage based promises to certain smaller parties.

You do know that Boutersie was the same man who plunged Suriname into disaster TWICE.  His son is allegedly in the same criminal enterprise that his father is accused of being involved in.  The fact thatsufficient Surinamers gave a criminal enough votes to allow him to assemble a winning coalition speaks much of that nation.

Indeed a video that I saw of the closi9ng ceremonies for Cariftesta reminded me of the Mass Games of North Korea.  Its been a long time that any Caribbean leader, other than your buddy Fidel Castro, receives endless praises outside of political party events.

Really I suspect that the main advantage that Suriname has is that each race is less able to do damage than is the case in Guyana, because no ethnic group can govern without some degree of cross ethnic support.  So the ethnic tensions don't rise to the levels of paranoia as they do in Guyana.  Creoles and Indians in Suriname can't hurt each other to the degree that blacks and Indians in Guyana can.

People are ebing perfectly clear. YOu are the one who wishes to think that only the perspectives of Indians needs to be considered.

The rest of us (except our resident racists you, rev, skeldonman, basemanl, and druggie) Blame BOTH sides and think that the views of BOTH sides ought to be factored in.  That is a definition of a dialogue.

So dont think that blacks want charity from Indians now any more than Indians wanted charity from blacks 40 years ago.  FAIRNESS, efficient, effective and transparent gov't and the respect for the talents and contributions of ALL Guyanese is all that ALL Guyanese should expect.

How is it that we're related bhai?

My point was simply that we try to see the real and perceived grievances of Blacks under the current system of Government and come to a reasonable conclusion regarding the governance of a modern democratic multiethnic state with liberal institutions.

P.S....One day soon the sides will be reversed when Indians become a minority race in Guyana. So we better reorganize the State now while we still have a chance before the Black racists match the PPP deed fuh deed. Demographics is destiny! And you all are on the wrong side of history.

They unfortunate thing is it can happen in the next election cycle. If the AFC poaches some 8 percent, black turnout is high the PPP can end up in with enough deficit in seats for the PNC forming the government. There will be no incentive for them to give up hard won access to the state resources by reforming anything. And they will extract a penalty on those crooks in office for their thievery. If they are also smart they will give the AFC some ministries to keep them in line.

I cannot for the life of me understand why even the most hardened Indo racist cannot see that we (Indians) are only marking time and are destined to lose Guyana. Our sole claim to the State is numbers. That's it. And we're a shrinking population. We should be preparing for minority status by granting extraordinary and entrenched Constitutional guarantees for ethnic minorities now rather wait for the inevitable reckoning which will fall on deaf ears. The PNC will not be a peaceful and generous mood when they regain power.

You are right because if danyael's scenario holds and the PNC gathers the most vote, say 45%, they then become a minority gov't and will be every bit as vengeful and as stubborn as the PPP now is. AND they will have to reward their supporters, the most rabid of whom will show little patience for "racial tolerance", much as was the case I 1992.   AND there are still unrepentant Burnhamites thirsting for the power that they think is theirs by right, though they remain quiet because nobody once to deal with them.

So the PPP and its supporters, and Indians at large need to deal with this problem NOW.  When they do so I am sure that right thinking blacks will join them, knowing that an unending revolving chair of ethnic power grabs and revenge benefits no one.

DUMB AND DUMBER.

Don't be racist, when the PNC regain power they will be reporting to Indian businessmen, just as the Barbadian govt report to White businessmen. The PNC under Hoyte showed that they could be pro business, I don't believe they will revert to the old Burnham destructive ways. In fact it might be better to have a Black govt as they have in the past been more corrupt but ask for less bribes.  Indians too smart for their own good, they demand too much bribes. More importantly they will straighten the Lindeners without fear of riots and crack down on criminals without the fear of protests. 

You dream Sir! You dream. Money is money but power is power. In the Third World money bows to state power