The image of Indians in Guyana is that he has one foot out de door in case of a crisis...

Ramharaks frustrations stems from the fact that he has a false narrative about who is the indian and what are their cultural prerogatives.

He sees a homogeneous entity with a unitary path and a singular purpose ( conserving "Indian" identity) but miss the fact the Indian are themselves a plural culture with internal identities separate and apart and each competing for political space.

He also fails to acknowledge that the core group of Hindus are not particularly receptive to Hindutva and cannot be regimented into a Guyanese RSS militancy by supposed articulation of sacred traditions.

They know that whatever is sacred to them is what they forged in Guyana. The Bharat Mata they left was not a salutary cradle to their emergence as humans but was a brutal step mother touting  Brahmanism ass sacred  creed and the laws of Manu the whip and the source of the deep wounds on  on their soul making sure they remain as dirt.

Amerindians have no kinship in struggle or in identity or in culture to Indians. Amerindians receive the similar level if not more of contempt from Indians as any. Their position at the bottom rung of the Guyanese social ladder is not on account of being in alliance with one or the other dominant groups. They are there because of a complete failure of other groups to recognize their natural patrimony and that they have cultural relevance.

I also do not see black people seeking Afrocentric militancy as their dominant position to sue for political recognition. The monochromatic view he has of our political reality is seeded in the manner and mode of his own emergence as a "hindu activist". It is artificial and as fictive as his view of what ails us.

1.  Creole Guyanese (African, mixed and Portuguese) do not define their ethnic identity outside of a "Guyanese" context.  They also see themselves as part of a Caribbean creole culture, with all the multi cultural aspects that this embraces.

2.  Creole culture is celebrated by them as it is a creation of the many peoples who live in the Caribbean and/or who embrace a primarily Caribbean identity.  It is not regarded as a singular culture, but as a composite of Africa, Europe, Asia, and the indigenous cultures of the Americas.  Do not tell a Jamaican that curry goat isnt Jamaican.

3. Indocentrics like this man reject creole cultural as being mongrelized and degenerate.  They do NOT embrace a multicultural vision of Guyana, where there are numerous pathways for the various ethnicities to embrace each other, to identify with one another, and to even absorb aspects of each culture as it suits their needs.   

Locating themselves out of this cultural continuum, they then wail when they are seen as interlopers, clannish, racist, unpatriotic, and not to be trusted. 

4.  There are also foolish as an Indo Carib creole culture does exist. Indo Caribbean people are easily recognized as being a Caribbean peoples as their almost 200 years existence in the Caribbean means that they have contributed to what being Caribbean is about, and similarly have absorbed cultures, styles and values from the other drivers of Caribbean identity.

Indocentrics like this man scream that those Indo Carib people who recognize this fact are "self hating", "love blackman", or are participating in "Indian genocide". India of 2015 isnt the India of 1838, so why do these folks wish to pretend that Indo Caribbean people have remain untransformed even after almost 170 years away from India?

THIS is the reason why people like him are seen as racist.

1. They locate their Indian identity OUTSIDE of a national construct.

2. They locate their Indian identity as superior to that of the more creolised groups, with myths of hard work, etc., even as Indians are the POOREST group of indentures, and maybe not much better off than are the much abused, and stigmatized descendants of slaves.

3. Whereas as the African intellectual talked much about African abuse of non Africans, as they spoke of the abuse of Africans by non African groups, the Indian "intellectuals" instead construct a myth of the weak and much abused Indian, and refuse to engage in conversations about the role that Indians THEMSELVES have played constructing this ethnic tension that exists in Trinidad, Suriname and ESPECIALLY Guyana.

We are still waiting for the Indian intellectual who can speak about the full gamut of the role of the Indian in our ethnic tensions as Africans like Eusi, Andaiye, David Hinds, and Walter Rodney have done for the Afro Guyanese. ALL of them condemned African racism, even as all of them also condemned the racism directed towards Africans.

The mere fact that Guyanese of African descent cannot even agree as to what they should be called, or in fact who is African/Black/Negro/Afro, indicates a very weak and varied ethnic identity.

I will argue that what ever Afro centered identity which exists among blacks in Guyana, is in reaction to perceived threats from what they see asa highly mobilized and powerful ethnic group whose main intent is to push them into the Atlantic Ocean.

Evidence of this is that in islands like Grenada, St V and Jamaica there is almost no tension between the descendants of slaves and of indentures.  In fact tensions are higher between self identified blacks and self identified people of mixed ancestry, due to the colonial legacy of the skin color heirarchies.

Any way this topic will be ignored, even as some posters here continue with their Indo KKK hehavior. 

Others who claim not to share this belief will shy away like a cockroach when the light is suddenly turned on.

So there will not be any intelligent discussion of this issue. It isnt that Indian intellectuals do not exist.  It is that proper discussion isnt allowed by the Indo KKK hindutva element, who will condemn those who do not share their world view as being "self hating Indians" or neemakarams.

I can speculate why these topics about the nature of group formation, identity and ethnicity are a bust here. Most people just do not care. Ramharak and Ravi are on their own. They only have dunces like Ugli, Cobra and Basedrum in their cheering section. Plus they do not have the necessary cultural vocabulary to know what he is talking about

The reason why they avoid discussion of the topic is that their entire moral validation, and that includes the socalled moderates like VVP, Kari, VishMahabir, is based on the mythology of the "innocent Indian abused by the savage black".

If there is the type of discussion that Eusi, David Hinds, Andaiye and Walter Rodney engaged in, then Indians will be reduced to being no better than Africans. Equally culpable for the ethnic morass and the political dead zone which has been the result of this.

Much easier to use code language to blame blacks.

Ravi DeV enters the game.....

Challenges facing Indian Guyanese community cannot be disjunctured from those facing other groups

this banna would have us believe that the Diwali imbroglio represents a retreat by "Indian" intellectuals from issues "germane to their "physical existence"

pandit daughta losing out in a political power play is now, for Indo-Guyanese, EXISTENTIAL! . . . [on so many freakin levels] huh?

this is the wet shit not-so-sly demagogues like Bayto Ramharack end up squeezing when they overreach . . . crawling around, sniffing out any platform (no matter how flimsy) to vend their ignoble political wares

itinerant 'intellectual' scampman . . . thoroughly engaged in authorship of installment ethnic poison being brewed up for Guyana in the bowels of barat's tiefman Sanata complex

disgusting and stink

No serious analysis of how PPP destroyed the economic and social fabric of the masses of Indos. As usual blame PNC and blackman.

Is it any wonder Guyana has sooo many problems. Just reading all the tripe in response to Batoram's comments. The man is correct in his comments. He did not blame anyone, just a general commentary he made.

Every ethnic group in Guyana is completely lost, it is evident in their quality of living. Just a few elites who controls the thought processes of their ethnic groups. 

The idea of the melting pot is not achievable. For that to happen, their must be trust. Just reading the shyte on here against Indianess is unbelievable.

Prejudices against Indoes even by Guyanese Indians. 

instead of pouting like a lil gurl and calling for a pity party, why don't u deconstruct my "tripe" suh we all can see how Bayto smart nah?

I see nothing wrong in Bato's letter. Try very hard to be sympathetic to Indians. You will be insightful. 

instead of pouting like a lil gurl and calling for a pity party, why don't u deconstruct my "tripe" suh we all can see how Bayto smart nah?

i've posted my insight . . . let's see yours

I do not read anywhere in his letter where he blames the black man.

The words read, I found nothing wrong. I suspect some here have read more than what is written-they have it read with a bias. Knowing the man's history.

I never bother to read that letter until about an hour ago. Simply, because I suspect it will not bring economic progress to all the PEOPLES of Guyana. 

u 'critiqued' my post with a blast of hot air

still waiting for the substance

Write like a smart fella. Ur rambling reminds of my days taunting my school buddies.

u got nothing eh?

keep clutching at your privates . . . it barely covers your nakedness

my job here is done

I see the man reading the Forum. He is mad at what I said about Gampat 

I sometimes go out (x)and forget to sign off, come back hours later and find I am still logged on.

Why would you see anything wrong when it carries the same implications of "black man bad, Indians saintly" that you do.

Clearly Guyana has a problem, mainly that of ethnic distrust.  It has corrupts all else in Guyana.  You and Bayto refuse to admit the Indian role in this, so clearly by implication, blacks get 100% of the blame.

Until there is an intelligent analysis of the Indian attitude towards ethnicity, nationality, and towards other ethnic groups, and the role that Indians played in creating this ethnic morass there will be NO progress.

Indeed African intellectuals have discussed much of the African issues, and do NOT place 100% of the blame on Indians.  Nigel Hughes and David Hinds have said much on this.

It is implied. Read the letter carefully.  It has to be made clear that the PPP has damaged Indo social and economic well being in Guyana. They did some good, but there are more negatives. Under Burnham and Hoyte have you heard of cocaine abuse in rural Indo villages? For all the issues with this new govt, they are going after the pushers. It accounts for the temporary slow down. The payoff will be long-term.

This is not as cut and dry as you would like it to appear. There is a 'timing' element to Guyana and cocaine activities. 

local country people do not yet grasp they have a junkie problem. They think this thing is like taking a drink here and there. They do not know how terrible that addiction is or how far these young people will go to get their fix. Much of the rise in crime is due to the increasing value of drugs due to the increased surveillance

In fact I think that many of the Berbice pirates are crack heads.  They have that glazed look like the many who we see roaming the streets of US cities.

There are real problems emerging within many Indian families as they become more urbanized, and their poverty, relative to others, more apparent.  As family networks become weaker there are fewer supports for that Indo family which fears a good thrashing every time the husband/father arrives home drunk (or high), bringing home no $$$ with him.  No surprise increased social pathologies among Indians, even as some pretend that they are immune from that.

The ‘original identity’ is lost for many

When my people came to the colony, they had an immigration number. On the immigration card, distinguishable marks were recorded and the caste along with the nearest police station.

Abu Bakr, being a Muslim must know his forefathers back in Africa who were Muslims considered themselves enlightened. And were not inhabited in enslaving the infidels they invaded in the many villages throughout the African continent.

Abu Bakr, should b reminded, Africa is an old culture. Just like India, And both are tribal societies.

Why is the caste system so demonized when in Africa, some tribes just kill the less respected ones.

These disussions get us no where. Too much free time Abu Bakr has. 

What nonsense are you writing.  There is no such thing as "African" culture.  There are the cultures of the wide varieties of ethnicities which exist between what we now know as Senegal and what we now know as Angola.  This is the breadth of origin of the enslaved peoples who were brought to the Americans.

In addition, generations of life in a multi cultural environment have transformed all of us from what our ancestors were. We have changed, and so have the lands from which we originated India of 1860 is not the India of 2015.  Indo Guyanese are also very different from their Asian counterparts.  Evidence of this is the fact that, despite large numbers of both groups living in close proximity to each other in NYC, they have virtually nothing in common.

Its the racist purist that terms "creolization" to be a negative factor, wiping out cultures. Indeed most people will view Trinidad, Guyana, and Suriname to be culturally rich. 

Not only because they are multi ethnic, and therefore multi culture, but the entire creolization process means that each ethnic group is exposed to a broader range of cultural possibilities, as they become exposed to other cultures.  Each person is able to operate on a continuum of various cultures, based on context.  Each person is also able to combine the various cultures in ways that suit him.

Take Trinidad.  Where else in the world would one find parang soca chutney.  This being a combination of an Afro Hispanic, an Afro creole, and an Indo creole cultural expression.   It brings together the traditions of Spain, Africa (as it manifests in the Spanish and English speaking Caribbean), and India.

Too bad racists like you think that this is wrong. Oddly enough this is fascinating to many from India.  I am sure we can remember the Indo soca music produced by that Asian Indian couple in the 80s.

And the practice of casteism is ILLEGAL in India, even if still socially recognized.

Dear Editor,

This is my final response to Abu Bakr on this issue. Mr Bakr seems to be more concerned with splitting hairs. If deciphering and navigating through his play on words is not enough of an exercise in teleology, one that lacks a specific focus, his confession to having a flair “to exaggerate, deform, etc, for effect” gives us an insight into the most legitimate rationale for his missives.

We would like to believe that our contributions address and highlight some of our more pressing national problems, and in our developing political entity, there are many to consider: social cohesion, corruption, crime, narco-trafficking, suicide, human development the list goes on. Mr Bakr is free to pontificate and philosophize about the Indian identity. Trying to situate who we are, be it Indians, Africans and Guyanese, from whence we came, and to what we are evolving, does not bring us any closer to addressing the current problems we face in this country.

Notwithstanding the inconsistency in his own analysis, he is asking far too much. We are not blessed with a crystal ball to guide our imagination far into the distant future regarding the next “level of ethnicity”, or the previous one, whether that identity is based on “ethnic or national” conceptions. The real question is: to what end and what does it matter? The focus should be on the here and now.

Since the establishment of the modern political state in Europe, more than two hundred years ago, leaders have sought to wrestle with the question of what constitutes a nation, an entity we now know to be an association of people with shared, but equal political rights, and an allegiance to national symbols, political institutions and procedures. The values that shape our nationality continue to do so, even when we have occasion to question those values over the course of time.

One cannot, however, ignore the fact that people who occupy the same political space within such a state, particularly in a multi-ethnic state like ours, share a common heritage, experience, ancestry, and set of values that are shaped within the community and by forces ‘external’ to their communities. Again, with the passage of time, cultural transformations do take place.

The duality is at work here also, and it cannot be ignored, even when others may tell us otherwise, or more so, define it for us, or dictate what those values should and ought to be. It is never a question of “original identity”. Mr Bakr wants us to ignore that historical experience simply because we have embarked on a journey of examining these values as we move towards the goal of nation-building. Missing in his consideration, is the question of the Amerindians and their contribution to the national culture, as well as their place in our society. Ravi Dev, in his uninvited comments, has addressed some of the other issues he has raised.

I would leave this final thought with Mr Bakr. As Guyanese, we have an obligation to continue to engineer a nation in which we can all coexist within the political state we share. Africans, Indians, Amerindians do not have to give up their cultural attributes, however defined, for the other. Social cohesion is a work in progress.

This is far too conspicuous in our society. Mr Bakr need not worry; “intellectualizing” the issues that define us will not diminish this process, it can only strengthen us as a people.

Yours faithfully,
Baytoram Ramharack

Why is it politically incorrect to speak about racism against Indians in the Caribbean?  Is it unpatriotic or immoral to do so? Tell us why you think Indians should remain tacit on issues that affect them as group.

You are missing the whole bloody discussion by your one track thinking as usual

Whoever calls him/herself an Indian is an Indian

Who is demanding of Bayto that ANY ONE give up their multi cultural identity.  Folks simply ask that the diversity of these identities be recognized, that he admits that each ethnicity isnt a nation state on to its self, and the very multicultural identity of Guyana suggests that there is tremendous diversity within each ethnic group.

If he believes that there is this monolithic Indian "nation" sharing geographic space with a monolithic African "nation", and a monolithic Amerindian "nation", he fools himself. 

In fact each one of these ethnic groups has had to make major adjustments to fit into the Guyana that we know today.  In addition each ethnic group has had to adjust to the presence, and to engage other ethnic groups. Given that 20% now self identify as mixed, and that this is the fastest growing segment, I will suggest that the boundaries are becoming increasing blurred.

If Bayto thinks that this is the "destruction" of Indian cultural identity he can moan all he wishes.  That horse galloped out of the stable long ago.

When I spoke of PPP/Indo elite racism against Africans, you screamed and considered it a treasonous act.

Pity that you lack the intellectual depth to understand that I have no more obligation to respect you than you have to respect me, and you CANNOT demand that I respect you if you arent willing to extend the same courtesies to me.

Contrary to what you think Indians are NOT special people in Guyana whose needs should be prioritized over others.

Who is the ‘Indian intellectual’?

 Points to note.

1. Racist accusations by Indians who purport that they represent the views  of the community. SILENCE by that community, which implies that either they agree, or are not bothered.

2. When a group of African engaged in racism a group of Africans loudly condemned it. They were NOT seen as Uncle Toms, and ALL of these enjoy strong reputations among Africans.

So we see a completely different reaction from Indians and Africans.

When some Indians engage in racism SILENCE from Indians....either they agree/or they aren't offended.  What is quite evident is that the few Indians who do speak out are condemned as self hating.

When some Africans engage in racism LOUD condemnations from African leaders.  They are NOT condemned as self hating Uncle Toms. 

BTW Ravi Dev was loud in ridiculing creole culture as a bastardized culture created by the Europeans.