Granted that Dr Kean Gibson said unflattering things about Indians in the past, does that ipso facto invalidate the contents of her letter that Django posted here? I think not. 

I applaud Dr Gibson for speaking out. Here is a coalition supporter, moreso a black woman, openly criticizing black Joe Harmon and the APNU+AFC. She is warning about a return of the "PNC era". She is reminding the government that voters put them in power because they had campaigned on certain principles but they seem to forget those same principles now. What is wrong with that?

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Who the hell is Max Wallerson?

Mitwah posted:

How did this topic go off track? The question is whether Harmon is corrupt or not.

With so many people from all directions accusing this guy of major corruption I think we should name him "Corruption-Growth Hormone". 

Gilbakka posted:

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Gilly, there is usually a moment in any statement when it may lose its credibility. That came when you added your last question.

ksazma posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Gilly, there is usually a moment in any statement when it may lose its credibility. That came when you added your last question.

"How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

What is wrong with the question Kaz, is it because none of the PPP apologists are capable of admitting to this?

cain posted:

ksazma posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Gilly, there is usually a moment in any statement when it may lose its credibility. That came when you added your last question.

"How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

What is wrong with the question Kaz, is it because none of the PPP apologists are capable of admitting to this?

All about expectation. This government while campaigning did not promise to be better than the PPP, they promise not be corruption free. Gilly as their supporter expected that from them and because he is an honorable person should hold them to their promise. It has been regurgitated here many time that PPP supporters are lacking in character and morals. Inserting the question here again diminished any perceived criticism he had of the current government.

ksazma posted:

Who the hell is Max Wallerson?

"Who the hell" and "KSAZMA -SMOOTH OPERATOR" don't gel.

Gilbakka posted:

ksazma posted:

Who the hell is Max Wallerson?

"Who the hell" and "KSAZMA -SMOOTH OPERATOR" don't gel.

"Who the hell" was just a play on words bai. It does not connote what you suggest.

Gilbakka posted:

Granted that Dr Kean Gibson said unflattering things about Indians in the past, does that ipso facto invalidate the contents of her letter that Django posted here? I think not. 

I applaud Dr Gibson for speaking out. Here is a coalition supporter, moreso a black woman, openly criticizing black Joe Harmon and the APNU+AFC. She is warning about a return of the "PNC era". She is reminding the government that voters put them in power because they had campaigned on certain principles but they seem to forget those same principles now. What is wrong with that?

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

I did not read returned to a PNC era.

ksazma posted:

Gilbakka posted:

ksazma posted:

Who the hell is Max Wallerson?

"Who the hell" and "KSAZMA -SMOOTH OPERATOR" don't gel.

"Who the hell" was just a play on words bai. It does not connote what you suggest.

Why does Gilbakka break his own rules? He had resolved never to argue with an Islamic scholar like ksazma because it will go on and on and on. So, I accept your explanation, Kaz, and now over to you for the last word.

Gilbakka posted:

Why does Gilbakka break his own rules? He had resolved never to argue with an Islamic scholar like ksazma because it will go on and on and on. So, I accept your explanation, Kaz, and now over to you for the last word.

Thanks for so kindly giving me the last word Gilly. As unwarranted as this comment "How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions?" was so was this one "an Islamic scholar like ksazma".

Gilbakka posted:

Granted that Dr Kean Gibson said unflattering things about Indians in the past, does that ipso facto invalidate the contents of her letter that Django posted here? I think not. 

I applaud Dr Gibson for speaking out. Here is a coalition supporter, moreso a black woman, openly criticizing black Joe Harmon and the APNU+AFC. She is warning about a return of the "PNC era". She is reminding the government that voters put them in power because they had campaigned on certain principles but they seem to forget those same principles now. What is wrong with that?

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Yes, it is true that not many were critical of the PPP when they were in office and suspected of doing things they should not have done.

However, we also have to be wary of wolves in sheep's clothing. Kean Gibson has done a tremendous disservice to all Indians by her/his silly accusations...effectively arguing that Indians discriminate against Afros solely based on our embrace of the caste system, when little or no evidence existed for this. Gibson's argument, and I am reading the book now, simply contributed to the conflict. What was more disturbing was the fact that she published it in the form of a mini book, and she/he is a professor who is in a position to shape and mold young minds and who, by virtue of her position of authority is given much credence for her work as a university professor.   Her book says she has a linguistic background, so what makes her an authority on Indian caste system?

I would compare this kind of thinking to Hitler and Mein Kampf (My Struggle) where Hitler's book was also published in a democracy (Weimar Republic). Hitler blamed the Jews for everything that was wrong with Germany. Gibson is a pseudo-intellectual and an Indian hater. 

So, the answer to your question is this: Yes, Gibson has a right to critique. But, given her background and writing, she is not critical of major policy issues with this government, she is addressing a minor issue. My point is, Gibson will not likely argue that this government has overstepped its bounds when it does. So in a democracy, ideas should flourish. But you cant scold others for raising (or even dismiss) Gibson's missive and credibility. A democracy allows for this also.. 

Charging the Indian population in Guyana of caste discrimination raises alot of questions.  Caste discrimination is Indians against Indians. Gibson's charge of caste discrimination is Indians discriminating against Africans and indicting the PPP along with it. Are all Indians high caste Brahmins who see Blacks as all Shudras???  That is certainly not the case.  Most Indians in Guyana wonders about what a caste society is like and constantly question and debate it. Hindus in the Caribbean cannot understand why would another Indian look down and heap scorn another Indian person no matter what their status is in society.  I have never heard of a case where a Hindu Brahmin pundit refused to go to Chammar's house or logie to perform a religious function such as jhandi or katha. Would it be fair to say that Blacks in the West practices tribal discrimination as it is most African countries?

Gilbakka posted:

How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Have you lost your marbles old chap? Look around you, all the Indian members of the AFC were PPP supporters who openly criticized the party leaders and actions. Ramjattan, Nagamootoo and Ralph Ramkarran.

A 

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

Charging the Indian population in Guyana of caste discrimination raises alot of questions.  Caste discrimination is Indians against Indians. Gibson's charge of caste discrimination is Indians discriminating against Africans and indicting the PPP along with it. Are all Indians high caste Brahmins who see Blacks as all Shudras???  That is certainly not the case.  Most Indians in Guyana wonders about what a caste society is like and constantly question and debate it. Hindus in the Caribbean cannot understand why would another Indian look down and heap scorn another Indian person no matter what their status is in society.  I have never heard of a case where a Hindu Brahmin pundit refused to go to Chammar's house or logie to perform a religious function such as jhandi or katha. Would it be fair to say that Blacks in the West practices tribal discrimination as it is most African countries?

That is one of the reasons why I always say

The East Indian people of Guyana are a nation we are our own nation

comparing us to India Indians where an Indian would kill another Indian because of his caste or religion is not what we are about.

VishMahabir posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Granted that Dr Kean Gibson said unflattering things about Indians in the past, does that ipso facto invalidate the contents of her letter that Django posted here? I think not. 

I applaud Dr Gibson for speaking out. Here is a coalition supporter, moreso a black woman, openly criticizing black Joe Harmon and the APNU+AFC. She is warning about a return of the "PNC era". She is reminding the government that voters put them in power because they had campaigned on certain principles but they seem to forget those same principles now. What is wrong with that?

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Yes, it is true that not many were critical of the PPP when they were in office and suspected of doing things they should not have done.

However, we also have to be wary of wolves in sheep's clothing. Kean Gibson has done a tremendous disservice to all Indians by her/his silly accusations...effectively arguing that Indians discriminate against Afros solely based on our embrace of the caste system, when little or no evidence existed for this. Gibson's argument, and I am reading the book now, simply contributed to the conflict. What was more disturbing was the fact that she published it in the form of a mini book, and she/he is a professor who is in a position to shape and mold young minds and who, by virtue of her position of authority is given much credence for her work as a university professor.   Her book says she has a linguistic background, so what makes her an authority on Indian caste system?

I would compare this kind of thinking to Hitler and Mein Kampf (My Struggle) where Hitler's book was also published in a democracy (Weimar Republic). Hitler blamed the Jews for everything that was wrong with Germany. Gibson is a pseudo-intellectual and an Indian hater. 

So, the answer to your question is this: Yes, Gibson has a right to critique. But, given her background and writing, she is not critical of major policy issues with this government, she is addressing a minor issue. My point is, Gibson will not likely argue that this government has overstepped its bounds when it does. So in a democracy, ideas should flourish. But you cant scold others for raising (or even dismiss) Gibson's missive and credibility. A democracy allows for this also.. 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Vish. I appreciate it.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

I have never heard of a case where a Hindu Brahmin pundit refused to go to Chammar's house or logie to perform a religious function such as jhandi or katha. 

Billy bhai, India's caste system was not created by its gods but by powerful people. It was meant to organize society by a system of division of labor. So, it was/is not a Chammar's duty to perform a religious function like jhandi or katha. A Chammar has to ask a Brahmin/pandit to perform that service, and once the pandit is available he must go to the Chammar's house or logie where the function will take place. A Brahmin's duty is not confined to a temple; it includes rendering religious services in palaces and mansions of kings/rulers, and the homes of Chatrees/soldiers and Chammars too. A Brahmin may not socialize with a Chammar but his duty is to serve Chammars.

Eh EH the racist Kean G got a conscience all of a sudden.  This world is full of magic.

Gilbakka posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

I have never heard of a case where a Hindu Brahmin pundit refused to go to Chammar's house or logie to perform a religious function such as jhandi or katha. 

Billy bhai, India's caste system was not created by its gods but by powerful people. It was meant to organize society by a system of division of labor. So, it was/is not a Chammar's duty to perform a religious function like jhandi or katha. A Chammar has to ask a Brahmin/pandit to perform that service, and once the pandit is available he must go to the Chammar's house or logie where the function will take place. A Brahmin's duty is not confined to a temple; it includes rendering religious services in palaces and mansions of kings/rulers, and the homes of Chatrees/soldiers and Chammars too. A Brahmin may not socialize with a Chammar but his duty is to serve Chammars.

Bhai, people create gods and all his powers and expressions of powers and the duties and obligations of the believers to acknowledge and respect that power.

It is people that created the horrible caste system and justified it on theology. The Brahmins who are supposed to be the teachers they sought refuge in its parasitic benefits.

We can rationalize t he origins, discount the Smriti texts vs Sruti texts and claim the whole system does not represent "true" hinduism but it exists; it is pervasive; it is cruel; it is defended; it is reality. Yes it is people build and the curse of india.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

Mitwah posted:

How did this topic go off track? The question is whether Harmon is corrupt or not.

With so many people from all directions accusing this guy of major corruption I think we should name him "Corruption-Growth Hormone". 

Most people who are accusing him of an infraction does not label the infraction corruption because he has robbed the state in any way. They called it corruption because he is being seduced per a known Chinese playbook into corrupt practices.

None of you who so much want to call him lots of names had not a damn thing to say when the PPP succumbed to the same lures and actually had the con job run on them by the Chinese with the state being the loser and they becoming rich in the process.

Ask Mars to post the brochure of promises and ownership that this company celebrated was theirs to have in Guyana. They even had the coterie of PPP politicians who were in their pockets proudly emblazoned on the front page. It was directed to Chinese investors telling them Guyana was for the taking...visa easy, land and access there and ready.

Drugb posted:

Gilbakka posted:

How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Have you lost your marbles old chap? Look around you, all the Indian members of the AFC were PPP supporters who openly criticized the party leaders and actions. Ramjattan, Nagamootoo and Ralph Ramkarran.

Oi man stop playing de ass and try using the soft noodles between your ears no matter how much it hurts to do so. 

Those Indian members you mention are not aligned to the PPP party they are EX PPP who wants nothing to do with them because of their evil doings.

Again, who are the PPP supporters that criticized them when they did wrong? None, got that, they figured it was "abie time now" at the trough.

Gilbakka posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

I have never heard of a case where a Hindu Brahmin pundit refused to go to Chammar's house or logie to perform a religious function such as jhandi or katha. 

Billy bhai, India's caste system was not created by its gods but by powerful people. It was meant to organize society by a system of division of labor. So, it was/is not a Chammar's duty to perform a religious function like jhandi or katha. A Chammar has to ask a Brahmin/pandit to perform that service, and once the pandit is available he must go to the Chammar's house or logie where the function will take place. A Brahmin's duty is not confined to a temple; it includes rendering religious services in palaces and mansions of kings/rulers, and the homes of Chatrees/soldiers and Chammars too. A Brahmin may not socialize with a Chammar but his duty is to serve Chammars.

Gilbakka,

There is a hierarchy in every society, including the English where the Royalty sits at the top and the undeserving poor at the bottom.  What baffled the English was how a poor Brahmin was considered higher than a Rajah. American Indian societies are matriarchal. They have women as the head of the tribe. 

VishMahabir posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Granted that Dr Kean Gibson said unflattering things about Indians in the past, does that ipso facto invalidate the contents of her letter that Django posted here? I think not. 

I applaud Dr Gibson for speaking out. Here is a coalition supporter, moreso a black woman, openly criticizing black Joe Harmon and the APNU+AFC. She is warning about a return of the "PNC era". She is reminding the government that voters put them in power because they had campaigned on certain principles but they seem to forget those same principles now. What is wrong with that?

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Yes, it is true that not many were critical of the PPP when they were in office and suspected of doing things they should not have done.

However, we also have to be wary of wolves in sheep's clothing. Kean Gibson has done a tremendous disservice to all Indians by her/his silly accusations...effectively arguing that Indians discriminate against Afros solely based on our embrace of the caste system, when little or no evidence existed for this. Gibson's argument, and I am reading the book now, simply contributed to the conflict. What was more disturbing was the fact that she published it in the form of a mini book, and she/he is a professor who is in a position to shape and mold young minds and who, by virtue of her position of authority is given much credence for her work as a university professor.   Her book says she has a linguistic background, so what makes her an authority on Indian caste system?

I would compare this kind of thinking to Hitler and Mein Kampf (My Struggle) where Hitler's book was also published in a democracy (Weimar Republic). Hitler blamed the Jews for everything that was wrong with Germany. Gibson is a pseudo-intellectual and an Indian hater. 

So, the answer to your question is this: Yes, Gibson has a right to critique. But, given her background and writing, she is not critical of major policy issues with this government, she is addressing a minor issue. My point is, Gibson will not likely argue that this government has overstepped its bounds when it does. So in a democracy, ideas should flourish. But you cant scold others for raising (or even dismiss) Gibson's missive and credibility. A democracy allows for this also.. 

Dr Gibson has done nothing to Indian. She is doing like Ravi did in his essay on the Etiology of violence, providing an explanation for our ethnic divide and our ethnic animosity.

I will not go into her work because I am sure none of you have even read it and it is more a pamphlet than a book.  Here you are waxing about Mein Kampf and taking the usual trajectory of dismissing on defaming rather than actually offering penetrating arguments against the thesis.

Be responsible, read the damn book and then come back with some honest response rather than the usual vomit.

By the way, I do not agree with her premise no less than I agreed with Ravi Dev and both took the tract of looking at the ethnic group and making broad based generalizations about compulsions and inclinations. Both are thought provoking and represent a degree of shallowness as scholarship but one should not extrapolate nonsense not included or even broached by the texts.

ian posted:

 

These bloody skunks APNU/PNC rigged the election. 

 

So APNU AFC rigged the election when the PPP was in power, but didn't rig the LGE when they were in power.

Does it not dawn on you that if APNU AFC were riggers they would have done what the PNC did in 1973, and claim victory on the Corentyne Coast?

Face it.  In May 2015 the people spoke and the PPP LOST.

In March 2016 the people spoke and all the PPP accomplished was "consolidating the East Indian support base" while they lost ground every where else!

Gilbakka posted:

Granted that Dr Kean Gibson said unflattering things about Indians in the past, does that ipso facto invalidate the contents of her letter that Django posted here? I think not. 

I applaud Dr Gibson for speaking out. Here is a coalition supporter, moreso a black woman, openly criticizing black Joe Harmon and the APNU+AFC. She is warning about a return of the "PNC era". She is reminding the government that voters put them in power because they had campaigned on certain principles but they seem to forget those same principles now. What is wrong with that?

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

APNU supporters are openly critical of APNU leadership.

Where is similar criticism of the PPP by people other than Ramkarran?

ksazma posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Fact is, many coalition supporters are openly criticizing the government, not sparing President Granger down to certain public servants. in a democracy this is a good and healthy thing. How many PPP supporters openly criticize that party's leaders and actions? 

Gilly, there is usually a moment in any statement when it may lose its credibility. That came when you added your last question.

It is perfectly relevant to ask why does Jagdeo get away with screaming his incoherent rants, and fooling people that the PPP is in a strong position.

FACT. Jagdeo has openly codified the PPP as an ethnic party which seeks to consolidate its ethnic support base, while openly admitting that it ignored other groups in the past LGE.

FACT.  This same ethnic base is dwindling, and is not monolithic.

FACT.  With such a strategy the only hope for a PPP victory in 2020 is if the APNU AFC turn out to be a bunch of bumbling and corrupt idiots.

So how come we don't see criticism of the PPPs leadership from its support base?

Why when people query about this they then get attacked, as you now seek to intimidate Gilly into not posing that question?