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FM
Former Member
I hate to have to bring you a bit on-board here my man, but you have to understand the Indo perspective. I don't want to play the race card as it's not beneficial for anyone but the PPP. This was not a planned letter so please forgive and structural, grammatical or other imperfections.

Anyway, let me explain some thoughts and feelings from the heart. Understand, the average Indian over say 35 have a great fear of the PNC at the helm of power. You have to understand what occured pre-1992 and continued until 2006. The issue of PNC racist brutality against Indians (especially men) went from top, to the security forces, all the way to the man in the street. I cannot even begin to tell you the fear and hatred which was conjured up when we saw with our own eyes the brutality against our own and there was nothing we could do. Not only did we experience and witness street brutality, but we had even more fear when we turned to the security forces for help and representation.

I can give you a few examples which close friends/relatives or myself were witness to. These are few examples, but it represents a microcosm of our experience under the PNC:

1. In Vreed-En-Hoop, 1979 an Indian guy punched an Afro who tried to grab his gold chain. About six of his Afro choke-and-rob brothers pounced on the Indo guy, beat him till he was down, the police came, the Afro guy told the police he was attacked, the police asked no questions but instead proceeded to beat the Indo guy on the ground with his baton, then proceeded to arrest him as a trouble maker.

2. On Sheriff Street, two Indian guys had an accident with an Afro-driven auto. A group of Hammie goons from Camp Town was hanging out and proceeded to beat the Indian guys, both of whom were injured from the accident. The police stood by.

3. An uncle of mine had a close call with his auto on Sheriff Street with an Afro-driven car, both vehicles came to a stop, no accident. The Afro guy jumped out and punched my uncle in the face breaking his glasses and just drove off as if it’s business as usual. And BTW the Afro guy was wrong as he tried to overtake even though my uncle had his turn signal on.

4. I also saw first-hand the abuses occurring at Timehri airport against Indians, especially male. I saw on old guy objected at the abuse and humiliation just to have several police officers pounced on him, beat him, dragged him into a separate building and continued to beat him. The son tried to intervene just to have several police officers rushed and beat him also. His wife and daughters were all left to cry outside.

Between 1992 and 2006 Afros continued with their acts of impunity. It is noteworthy that a guy called Waddel could openly call for violence against Indians, where the Buxton FFs could openly exhort their 2 for 1 policy, where Buxtonians were allowed to roam and Indians kill at will. A philosophy where the PNC leadership felt free to taunt their majority Afro supporters to embrace “slo-faya mo-faya. A mindset where, not so long ago, Fineman saw it fit to slaughter Indians with extreme prejudice over his missing girlfriend. These days cannot be allowed to return and, unfortunately, the average Indian see the PPP as their only safety net against such a recurrence.

My man, I don’t wish to bore you but this is what’s in the psyche of Indians and why they feel so strongly. 19 years may have passed since the PNC rule ended but much of these abuses are as fresh and raw as yesterday. So when you say Indians don’t give anyone else a chance like the Afros are willing to, well understand the thinking and risk many Indians see when they imagine a PNC power structure returning to power. We were not even allowed to eat properly without a PNC card to get “scarce” items from the KSI. Indians were abused in every facet of life all the way to the point of leaving Timehri airport. Our greatest relief was to know the plane we were on entered T&T airspace, only then were we free from a lifetime of abuse.

Between institutional racism, goons, police racism, street racism, plain bullies, life for the average Indian was unbearable, humiliating and fearful. We existed in an apartheid society which offered no apologies and knew little limits.

I would however, like to add that there were many decent Afros who did not subscribe to the doings of the core majority and the PNC. Many would prefer to see a different Guyana but fell victim to herd mentality and survival of the fittest as the pie got smaller and smaller or themselves became victims. Many of us can attest to afros who paid a price for standing up for justice.

On the other hand, I do not subscribe to the philosophy of retribution as two wrongs never make it right. Many of us hear the voice of Nigel Hughs and do feel the pain of feeling powerless and almost dispossessed. His voice and emotions brought back the emotions many of us Indians felt under the PNC. The big question, how do we make it right for all under one nation. This is the thrust of the AFC, a task made difficult given the few examples of what the PNC and their constituency did for so many years.

As you see, I have not even attempted to refer to the 60’s.

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quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
I hate to have to bring you a bit on-board here my man, but you have to understand the Indo perspective. .



Funny teh Indo perspective. They will vote for a party that now includes many of the violently racist blacks who you describe. Answer that please.



Now write about "Behind the African psyche". I am sicked and tired of clannish people like you implying that the needs and concerns of one group should be given priority over the other.

BOTh of the major groups have issues about the other and this is reflected in a dysfunctional political system where a failed and corrupt criminal group will most likely win the election.

Many older blacks can tell you all the wrongs that the PPP did to blacks in the 1960s, inclusive of savage attacks by the PYO goon squad. But clannish you dont care. This PPP "governance" set the stage for distrust of the PPP by blacks that we see up to today.

Yes we were told that we were paranoid when we believed that "Indian rule" meant the TOTAL exclusion of blacks from being involved in running the country. Since 1992 we have seen that this isnt paranoia. This is REALITY.

So yes this is why we turned a blind eye to Burnham (even though eventually we suffered for this) because we felt that Indo rule, and our exclusion would surely result...Yes we see this today.

This is why there is a resurgence of pride in Burnham among many middled aged and older blacks. Even though many of them have conveniently forgotten that they fled Burnham, not Cheddi or Jagdeo.

Deny this as you want but this will guarantee the very undeserving APNU of a base 25%...this without doing any campaigning. Even David Hinds, who was brutalized by Burnham's goons, almost killed, now has gone in that direction.

Yes dysfunction given the history of the PNC. But just as insecurity leads most Indos to cling to the PPP many of the mid and older blacks will cling to the PNC.

Other Africans, especially the youths, have checked out of the system. Check their paltry turnouts. They have given up. No longer do the see the political system as being relevant to helping them acheive their goals.

How can the PPP be defeated if one group clings desperatey to them, and the other has lost hope that the political system will deliver and so have given up on voting?

The AFC has done NOTHING to address this problem.


Its as important for you to figure out why Africans/mixed voters will not vote as it is to figure out why the Indians cling so desperately to the PPP...and most likely will do so again...even if in SLIGHTLY lower numbers, despite wholesale incorporatiion of black exPNC goons within that party.

So continue to cite all the "wrongs" of the African. Yes portray us as teh UNIQUELY guilty race. Then ask yourself why the very Indian face of the AFC over the last year or two will cost you some African votes. This while you all babble about the "Indian perspective" refuse to acknowledge the "African perspective" and that get orgasms about supposed inroads into the PPP vote, while your party us failing to interest the African vote...evidence by the PPP getting more out to see them in Kitty than you all did.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:

The big question, how do we make it right for all under one nation.


Again .. simple yet profound ..

PROGRESSIVE members of the PPP/C, PNCR, AFC and those who are frustrated with the current system to join together where the OBJECTIVES is to govern for the PEOPLE without politicians seeking personal securities/gains.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:

This is the thrust of the AFC, a task made difficult given the few examples of what the PNC and their constituency did for so many years.


While there are a few dedicated members of the AFC, the organization has strayed from the objectives of a NEW approach with the emphasis on the BENEFITS, first and foremost, to Guyanese.

The FEW circumspect members of the AFC need to rid the party of numerous "hangers-on" and move forward with a fresh mandate for the 2016 election.
FM
@Caribj, I hear you and as I said, personally I see and appreciate the pain in Nigel Hugh's voice. I do not agree with the behavior, just reflecting the emotion and fears of many on the other side. Convincing the less educated to cling to those fears is an easy task for the PPP and plays into their hands. Redux referred to it as PPP battam house politics, unfortunately, it is their politics. Baseman is one who promotes losening this bind in which we find ourselves. I can tell you, there are many Indians who want out of the current rot, who are tired and frustrated at the PPP and their games, who want to see something new, but not a return to the PNC days. Baseman want to see a new era in Guyana, one free of the yolk of PPP/PNC politics. However, we have the hearts and mind to deal with and this we are doing. We have to find the way to bring the flock along without them feeling exposed to the wolves.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
Convincing the less educated to cling to those fears is an easy task for the PPP and plays into their hands. .


The similarly uneducated African has decided not to vote. He has reconciled himself to the fact that in Guyana "collie pan tap" and there is nothing that he can do. Either leave or deal with it.


The AFC made a huge tactical error by ignoring this vote as it CORRECTLY tried to get the rural Indian vote. It needed to woo BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY.


Let me tell you this. Summer brings many visits by Guyanese. NOT ONE AfroGuyanese that I met gave the AFC a slimmiest chance of winning. Despite their laments about Granger their sympathies mainly lay with him...or they just didnt care. Kept on asking about the AFC. Kept on getting thes every bored responses. More a less along the lines of "they are making noise out there but we dont know how well they will do". Maybe Trotman being back in the race and Nigel Huges being more visible might shift some opinions but thats how it was in August.


The problem with the AFC is that they are a middle class party which is very ignorant of the African working class (Holder and her insults about minibus drivers as an example). They didnt understand that they are viewed with the ssme skepticism among the African working class as they were among rural Indians. I told them they were being called the "redman and potagee" party. I was told this by people IN GUYANA.


The African grass roots have lost faith that the political system can be fair. They have felt let down by BOTH the PNC and the AFC which failed to protect him against the PPP. he now feels that its his actions and his alone which matter. Not voting for any party.

And note that, especially in rural villages, the PPP might get more black votes than you think. Folks got to live and like they say "if you cant beat them you have to join them". The smattering of young black faces in the PPP crowds look quite happy with what ever they think they are getting from the PPP. They will settle for a little milk.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
Convincing the less educated to cling to those fears is an easy task for the PPP and plays into their hands. .


The similarly uneducated African has decided not to vote. He has reconciled himself to the fact that in Guyana "collie pan tap" and there is nothing that he can do. Either leave or deal with it.


The AFC made a huge tactical error by ignoring this vote as it CORRECTLY tried to get the rural Indian vote. It needed to woo BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY.


Let me tell you this. Summer brings many visits by Guyanese. NOT ONE AfroGuyanese that I met gave the AFC a slimmiest chance of winning. Despite their laments about Granger their sympathies mainly lay with him...or they just didnt care. Kept on asking about the AFC. Kept on getting thes every bored responses. More a less along the lines of "they are making noise out there but we dont know how well they will do". Maybe Trotman being back in the race and Nigel Huges being more visible might shift some opinions but thats how it was in August.


The problem with the AFC is that they are a middle class party which is very ignorant of the African working class (Holder and her insults about minibus drivers as an example). They didnt understand that they are viewed with the ssme skepticism among the African working class as they were among rural Indians. I told them they were being called the "redman and potagee" party. I was told this by people IN GUYANA.


The African grass roots have lost faith that the political system can be fair. They have felt let down by BOTH the PNC and the AFC which failed to protect him against the PPP. he now feels that its his actions and his alone which matter. Not voting for any party.

And note that, especially in rural villages, the PPP might get more black votes than you think. Folks got to live and like they say "if you cant beat them you have to join them". The smattering of young black faces in the PPP crowds look quite happy with what ever they think they are getting from the PPP. They will settle for a little milk.
I do not see where they neglect to focus on increasing their vote count. They however are discerning to know 20% or so will be hardened PNC voters. They have to garner the blended community and steal a bit from the PPP. Stealing them from the PNC would mean little since it is clear they will not win. It is to stop the PPP from a simple majority and co-opting complete power. If they do that the PNC suddenly becomes players as well and Africans can be re-enfranchised. There has never been a moment in history where Guyana can truly enter an era of deliberative democracy as now.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by D2:
I do not see where they neglect to focus on increasing their vote count. They however are discerning to know 20% or so will be hardened PNC voters. They have to garner the blended community and steal a bit from the PPP. Stealing them from the PNC would mean little since it is clear they will not win. It is to stop the PPP from a simple majority and co-opting complete power. If they do that the PNC suddenly becomes players as well and Africans can be re-enfranchised. There has never been a moment in history where Guyana can truly enter an era of deliberative democracy as now.


Lets make it simple even some AFC supporters now admit that teh PPP is assured of 40% of the votes. Meaning with Indians at around 45% of the registered voters it is expected taht they will keep almost 90%. Neither the Amerindian nor the African/mixed is assured.

So if 60% of those who actually show up to vote are Indians the PPP wins based upon that ratio. Largesse suggests that they will pick up some African/mixed and Amerindian votes.

A minority PPP govt will only occur if there is high turnout by non Indians who vote some combination of AFC, APNU and UF.

Ignoring 55% of the vote was plain folly. But I think they have realized this now.

You ought to know that the PNC is crumbling and their supporters have no where to go. Many will simply NOT VOTE.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
@Caribj, I hear you and as I said, personally I see and appreciate the pain in Nigel Hugh's voice. I do not agree with the behavior, just reflecting the emotion and fears of many on the other side. Convincing the less educated to cling to those fears is an easy task for the PPP and plays into their hands. Redux referred to it as PPP battam house politics, unfortunately, it is their politics. Baseman is one who promotes losening this bind in which we find ourselves. I can tell you, there are many Indians who want out of the current rot, who are tired and frustrated at the PPP and their games, who want to see something new, but not a return to the PNC days. Baseman want to see a new era in Guyana, one free of the yolk of PPP/PNC politics. However, we have the hearts and mind to deal with and this we are doing. We have to find the way to bring the flock along without them feeling exposed to the wolves.

Baseman, it is dishonest on every level FOR ANYONE to pretend that voting for the AFC (in 2011??!) could/will bring back "PNC days."

This is the tactic of those who are consciously trying to hold back change. If you credential this kind of reasoning, then you are part of the problem not the solution . . . simple
FM
quote:
Originally posted by redux:
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
@Caribj, I hear you and as I said, personally I see and appreciate the pain in Nigel Hugh's voice. I do not agree with the behavior, just reflecting the emotion and fears of many on the other side. Convincing the less educated to cling to those fears is an easy task for the PPP and plays into their hands. Redux referred to it as PPP battam house politics, unfortunately, it is their politics. Baseman is one who promotes losening this bind in which we find ourselves. I can tell you, there are many Indians who want out of the current rot, who are tired and frustrated at the PPP and their games, who want to see something new, but not a return to the PNC days. Baseman want to see a new era in Guyana, one free of the yolk of PPP/PNC politics. However, we have the hearts and mind to deal with and this we are doing. We have to find the way to bring the flock along without them feeling exposed to the wolves.

Baseman, it is dishonest on every level FOR ANYONE to pretend that voting for the AFC (in 2011??!) could/will bring back "PNC days."

This is the tactic of those who are consciously trying to hold back change. If you credential this kind of reasoning, then you are part of the problem not the solution . . . simple


he is not credentialling it. He is just saying it is a fact of life.

Deal with people from where they are..not from where you wish them to be. Thats is how elections are won.

The PPP understands this. The AFc doesnt.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by redux:
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
@Caribj, I hear you and as I said, personally I see and appreciate the pain in Nigel Hugh's voice. I do not agree with the behavior, just reflecting the emotion and fears of many on the other side. Convincing the less educated to cling to those fears is an easy task for the PPP and plays into their hands. Redux referred to it as PPP battam house politics, unfortunately, it is their politics. Baseman is one who promotes losening this bind in which we find ourselves. I can tell you, there are many Indians who want out of the current rot, who are tired and frustrated at the PPP and their games, who want to see something new, but not a return to the PNC days. Baseman want to see a new era in Guyana, one free of the yolk of PPP/PNC politics. However, we have the hearts and mind to deal with and this we are doing. We have to find the way to bring the flock along without them feeling exposed to the wolves.

Baseman, it is dishonest on every level FOR ANYONE to pretend that voting for the AFC (in 2011??!) could/will bring back "PNC days."

This is the tactic of those who are consciously trying to hold back change. If you credential this kind of reasoning, then you are part of the problem not the solution . . . simple


he is not credentialling it. He is just saying it is a fact of life.

Deal with people from where they are..not from where you wish them to be. Thats is how elections are won.

The PPP understands this. The AFc doesnt.

Sorry, this bit is a naked piece of race (war) propaganda masquerading as dispassionate reporting of a lament, hopeful; . . . most definitely not "the Indo perspective."

It is axiomatic that effective propaganda must be based on more than a modicum of truth - the more truth, the better. Read the piece carefully.

The fact that the AFC presence destroys the PNC/PPP zero sum duality is barely mentioned; the PNC is presented as looming and potent, even as it withers and its most dangerous henchmen are welcomed into the PPP.

I have a low tolerance for this kind of stuff, and will make a lot of enemies here. Don't bloody care.
FM
quote:
Our greatest relief was to know the plane we were on entered T&T airspace, only then were we free from a lifetime of abuse.




I thought T&T was run by the "racist" Eric Williams aka Burnham Brother in law?
FM
quote:
Originally posted by redux:
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
@Caribj, I hear you and as I said, personally I see and appreciate the pain in Nigel Hugh's voice. I do not agree with the behavior, just reflecting the emotion and fears of many on the other side. Convincing the less educated to cling to those fears is an easy task for the PPP and plays into their hands. Redux referred to it as PPP battam house politics, unfortunately, it is their politics. Baseman is one who promotes losening this bind in which we find ourselves. I can tell you, there are many Indians who want out of the current rot, who are tired and frustrated at the PPP and their games, who want to see something new, but not a return to the PNC days. Baseman want to see a new era in Guyana, one free of the yolk of PPP/PNC politics. However, we have the hearts and mind to deal with and this we are doing. We have to find the way to bring the flock along without them feeling exposed to the wolves.

Baseman, it is dishonest on every level FOR ANYONE to pretend that voting for the AFC (in 2011??!) could/will bring back "PNC days."

This is the tactic of those who are consciously trying to hold back change. If you credential this kind of reasoning, then you are part of the problem not the solution . . . simple

Don't shoot the messenger, get into the heads of those PPP diehards who continue to suffer immensely under the PPP but still see it fit to vote PPP. I try to understand why my Indo brothers behave they way they do towards to the PPP. This fact cannot be swept under the rug, we are not talking 1960's. Baseman was never an admirer of the PPP so I try to be objective and see the it for what it's worth.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
Convincing the less educated to cling to those fears is an easy task for the PPP and plays into their hands. .


The similarly uneducated African has decided not to vote. He has reconciled himself to the fact that in Guyana "collie pan tap" and there is nothing that he can do. Either leave or deal with it.


The AFC made a huge tactical error by ignoring this vote as it CORRECTLY tried to get the rural Indian vote. It needed to woo BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY.


Let me tell you this. Summer brings many visits by Guyanese. NOT ONE AfroGuyanese that I met gave the AFC a slimmiest chance of winning. Despite their laments about Granger their sympathies mainly lay with him...or they just didnt care. Kept on asking about the AFC. Kept on getting thes every bored responses. More a less along the lines of "they are making noise out there but we dont know how well they will do". Maybe Trotman being back in the race and Nigel Huges being more visible might shift some opinions but thats how it was in August.


The problem with the AFC is that they are a middle class party which is very ignorant of the African working class (Holder and her insults about minibus drivers as an example). They didnt understand that they are viewed with the ssme skepticism among the African working class as they were among rural Indians. I told them they were being called the "redman and potagee" party. I was told this by people IN GUYANA.


The African grass roots have lost faith that the political system can be fair. They have felt let down by BOTH the PNC and the AFC which failed to protect him against the PPP. he now feels that its his actions and his alone which matter. Not voting for any party.

And note that, especially in rural villages, the PPP might get more black votes than you think. Folks got to live and like they say "if you cant beat them you have to join them". The smattering of young black faces in the PPP crowds look quite happy with what ever they think they are getting from the PPP. They will settle for a little milk.

Caribj, the AFC did not neglect anywhere but it was an issue of resource allocation. If we cannot make headway into the PPP constituency, we will achieve nothing. But I do take your point, we need to hold onto what we acomplished in 2006.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by D2:
I do not see where they neglect to focus on increasing their vote count. They however are discerning to know 20% or so will be hardened PNC voters. They have to garner the blended community and steal a bit from the PPP. Stealing them from the PNC would mean little since it is clear they will not win. It is to stop the PPP from a simple majority and co-opting complete power. If they do that the PNC suddenly becomes players as well and Africans can be re-enfranchised. There has never been a moment in history where Guyana can truly enter an era of deliberative democracy as now.


Lets make it simple even some AFC supporters now admit that teh PPP is assured of 40% of the votes. Meaning with Indians at around 45% of the registered voters it is expected taht they will keep almost 90%. Neither the Amerindian nor the African/mixed is assured.

So if 60% of those who actually show up to vote are Indians the PPP wins based upon that ratio. Largesse suggests that they will pick up some African/mixed and Amerindian votes.

A minority PPP govt will only occur if there is high turnout by non Indians who vote some combination of AFC, APNU and UF.

Ignoring 55% of the vote was plain folly. But I think they have realized this now.

You ought to know that the PNC is crumbling and their supporters have no where to go. Many will simply NOT VOTE.


Both the PNC and the PPP are crumbling you just refuse to accept that because it plays into your whole racist anti indo agenda......i dig you old man i see you hiding behind the walls.
J
quote:
Originally posted by Eric's_Revenge:
quote:
Our greatest relief was to know the plane we were on entered T&T airspace, only then were we free from a lifetime of abuse.


I thought T&T was run by the "racist" Eric Williams aka Burnham Brother in law?

I would never classify any problematic race relations in T&T the same as Guyana. I always found T&T to be alot more tolerant and civilized, a society where people waited in line for the bus while in Guyana was survival of the fittest. T&T has a much more mature political leadership on all sidesand this is reflected in the broader society.

Guyana, on the other hand, has developed a culture of goonism and bullyism going back to the 60's and over the subsequesnt decades. This cultural DNA now transends race and creed in Guyana, where one could hardly have a decent and balanced conversation with each other without, before too long, the uncouth goonishness rises to the surface.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by redux:
The fact that the AFC presence destroys the PNC/PPP zero sum .


redux you can engage in your childish naivaety all you want but most Guyanese have a belief system that rewards are handed out based on race and that people of some races have more access to resources than people of others, based upon which one is in power.

The fact that the AFC saw fit to single out the Indo vote for focus meant that they too understand that most Guyanese see life through racial lenses. GR reports it was deliberate for reasons that he explained.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
[
I would never classify any problematic race relations in T&T the same as Guyana. .


Trinidad does have racial issues, maybe more skin color based than race.

Eric knows full well a red man like him can enter certain places that his black friends will be denied entry.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by redux:
The fact that the AFC presence destroys the PNC/PPP zero sum .


redux you can engage in your childish naivaety all you want but most Guyanese have a belief system that rewards are handed out based on race and that people of some races have more access to resources than people of others, based upon which one is in power.

The fact that the AFC saw fit to single out the Indo vote for focus meant that they too understand that most Guyanese see life through racial lenses. GR reports it was deliberate for reasons that he explained.

No, you read it thru your own race prism. The AFC needed to focus effort in the area where we need to build on appeal. As you even said, it needs to attract support in the PPP constituencies while retaining those inroads already made, thus the push. It's an issue of resource allocation why you see us visibility in these areas and not all over at once. The PPP has immensely more resources at it's disposal, so we need to be selective and smart how we expend.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
]
No, you read it thru your own race prism. The AFC needed to focus effort in the area where we need to build on appeal. As you even said, it needs to attract support in the PPP constituencies while retaining those inroads already made, thus the push. It's an issue of resource allocation why you see us visibility in these areas and not all over at once. The PPP has immensely more resources at it's disposal, so we need to be selective and smart how we expend.


OK I see.

1. Ignore the black vote even though the mere 20% they got earned them 8% of the votes.

2. Focus on the Indo vote when even now TK and others admit that most will stay with the PPP.

Sure fire way to ensure an AFC victory.

FYI 80% of the blacks/mixed who voted in 2006 DID NOT SUPPORT the4 AFC. So why do you AFC types think that you could have afforded to ignore this bloc, even while you knew that a crumbling PNC meant that many would probably refuse to vote, unless told why they should.

And yes the PPP resource base might well be why they get more black votes than you all do, because you forgot the black vote existed. You better be sure that much of the recent PPP largesse is focused on AfroGuyanese. Not because they care about them...its a bribe to people who feel ignored.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
]
No, you read it thru your own race prism. The AFC needed to focus effort in the area where we need to build on appeal. As you even said, it needs to attract support in the PPP constituencies while retaining those inroads already made, thus the push. It's an issue of resource allocation why you see us visibility in these areas and not all over at once. The PPP has immensely more resources at it's disposal, so we need to be selective and smart how we expend.


OK I see.

1. Ignore the black vote even though the mere 20% they got earned them 8% of the votes.

2. Focus on the Indo vote when even now TK and others admit that most will stay with the PPP.

Sure fire way to ensure an AFC victory.

FYI 80% of the blacks/mixed who voted in 2006 DID NOT SUPPORT the4 AFC. So why do you AFC types think that you could have afforded to ignore this bloc, even while you knew that a crumbling PNC meant that many would probably refuse to vote, unless told why they should.

And yes the PPP resource base might well be why they get more black votes than you all do, because you forgot the black vote existed. You better be sure that much of the recent PPP largesse is focused on AfroGuyanese. Not because they care about them...its a bribe to people who feel ignored.

Did I say or imply that? Please learn to read, or improve your comprehension skills. BTW, Dr VW Charles has just come on the AFC side.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
As you even said, it needs to attract support in the PPP constituencies while retaining those inroads already made,.


This is your mistake.

1. How do you know the AFC retains their 2006 votes. They got those votes ONCE. We are not talking about historic voting patterns.

2. Why does a party which says it has the acapability to run Guyana have to chose between wherther it pursues a rural strategy based on winning over Indians, or an urban startegy based on EXPANDING the base which it got in 2006. Good sense suggests BOTH.

Your strategy will at best give the AFC 20% of the votes, a far cry from winning...and with a crumbling PNC maybe getting less than 30% of the votes, a PPP victory will be assured.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
]
Did I say or imply that? .


VW Charles carries no juice any more. Dont think he brings any votes.

Believe me the PNC guys running to the PPP will bring more votes as they convey the sense that the PPP is bound to win so you better come over to get the crumbs they will give you, against the "losers" who will ahve nothing to offer.

You implied and stated that a focus on Indian votes was necessary. You implied that the AFC has African/mixed votes to retain. It does not. It got 20% of the votes from this bloc which gave it a scanty 8% of the total. If this bloc stays away as just about every one expects even if it gets 20% again it will fair quite poorly.
FM
I wonder how many of hang you on the streets, or mix with the money brokers. if you guys think this election have anything to do with race or what happen in the 60,70,or 80 between blacks or indian you can forget it,This election is all about power and money, You know who is pulling the strings the drugdealers, the hustlers,the dealers have to get the ppp back into power at all cost and i mean all cost.if there is a risk that the ppp will lose this election ,people will die and they will not be kill by the simple indians and blacks but by the dealers talk haft and left haft
W
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by D2:
I do not see where they neglect to focus on increasing their vote count. They however are discerning to know 20% or so will be hardened PNC voters. They have to garner the blended community and steal a bit from the PPP. Stealing them from the PNC would mean little since it is clear they will not win. It is to stop the PPP from a simple majority and co-opting complete power. If they do that the PNC suddenly becomes players as well and Africans can be re-enfranchised. There has never been a moment in history where Guyana can truly enter an era of deliberative democracy as now.


Lets make it simple even some AFC supporters now admit that teh PPP is assured of 40% of the votes. Meaning with Indians at around 45% of the registered voters it is expected taht they will keep almost 90%. Neither the Amerindian nor the African/mixed is assured.

So if 60% of those who actually show up to vote are Indians the PPP wins based upon that ratio. Largesse suggests that they will pick up some African/mixed and Amerindian votes.

A minority PPP govt will only occur if there is high turnout by non Indians who vote some combination of AFC, APNU and UF.

Ignoring 55% of the vote was plain folly. But I think they have realized this now.

You ought to know that the PNC is crumbling and their supporters have no where to go. Many will simply NOT VOTE.
I do not have the trend data of national turnout or rural to urban turnout. If the population has not heard of the AFC and do not know the PPP is autocratic and there is need to change at this point, that is not the AFC's fault. It is their own fault and sorry to say they will get the usual mediocre service in return.

Further, the PPP uses state resources and entertainment lure and are rolling in cash from their personal loot stash and returns on patronage. The do indeed have an advantage. However, one cannot say that the spending of limited resources on people who ought to know their disadvantages of not voting to their communities ( as they are disproportionately affected) then you need to ease up on suggestions of AFC oversight or neglect.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by warrior:
if there is a risk that the ppp will lose this election ,people will die and they will not be kill by the simple indians and blacks but by the dealers talk haft and left haft


I am perfectly aware of this. Indeed they have recruited the PNC goons who will help them. This is why many will not vote...nothing to gain by doing so...and being ignored by the AFC until the last minute ensures this will happen.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by warrior:
there is no race issuses in guyana only the poor and the ppp crime family


Now you have me laughing. Every word out of AfroGuyanese is "collie this and collie that", basically Indians have everything and they have nothing.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by warrior:
there is no race issuses in guyana only the poor and the ppp crime family


Now you have me laughing. Every word out of AfroGuyanese is "collie this and collie that", basically Indians have everything and they have nothing.
bullshit i have lots of black friends i never hear that crap, maybe you should get out of that bottom house meeting and start mixing with all guyanese
W
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by warrior:
there is no race issuses in guyana only the poor and the ppp crime family


Now you have me laughing. Every word out of AfroGuyanese is "collie this and collie that", basically Indians have everything and they have nothing.

Caribj, with all due respect, such bottom feeding brings you nothing. Back in 1980 I ran into a visiting Afro-American with his Afro-Guyanese wife on Robb street who boldly commented that he saw Indians, Chinese and Putagee owning everything, how come blacks are so shut out? Revisit your logic and arguement bai.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by D2:
I do not have the trend data of national turnout or rural to urban turnout. If the population has not heard of the AFC and do not know the PPP is autocratic and there is need to change at this point, that is not the AFC's fault. It is their own fault and sorry to say they will get the usual mediocre service in return.

Further, the PPP uses state resources and entertainment lure and are rolling in cash from their personal loot stash and returns on patronage. The do indeed have an advantage. However, one cannot say that the spending of limited resources on people who ought to know their disadvantages of not voting to their communities ( as they are disproportionately affected) then you need to ease up on suggestions of AFC oversight or neglect.


The AFC needs to prove to the population that they have the capacity to implement the changes that they claim to have. They need to communicate that, not only will they SAY that they will be inclusive, but they will also be inclusive. The AFc has to communicate that they are likely to win, or at least do well enough to be a power player in a hopefully diminished PPP. If not then their talk becomes mere rhetoric.

The AFC is entitled to nothing, and if Guyanese stay away from the polls it will be because none of the parties instilled in them a sense of trust. Parties have to earn their votes.

The AFC was fully aware that the PPP had the advantage of incumbency (use of tax dollars and superior ability to raise funds from the rich)in attracting crowds through entertianment. They have the ability to win sufficient "cross over" Amerindian and African v otes by dropping largesse just before the elections to ensure victory.

The AFC knew this and should have planned for this, so crying about this now shows poor planning on their part.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by baseman:
Caribj, with all due respect, such bottom feeding brings you nothing. Back in 1980 I ran into a visiting Afro-American with his Afro-Guyanese wife on Robb street who boldly commented that he saw Indians, Chinese and Putagee owning everything, how come blacks are so shut out? Revisit your logic and arguement bai.


Back in 1980 the economy was state owned so to say that blacks were locked out of the economy would have been pure nonsense. How big was our private sector then. Of course blacks had an almost total monopoly on decision making within the then dominant public sector.

If you cant see teh difference in the role of AfroGuyanese in 1980 vs 2011 you must truly be blind. An Englishman viisting Guyana noted that it was one of the few countries outside of Africa where blacks were discriminating against others rather than being discriminated against, as they were even in places like Jamaica and Barbados at the time.

Are you really suggesting that in 1980 for blacks in Guyana to cry out against discrimination from Indians would have been something that should not have been met with laughter?

Of course your AA friends saw Guyana through US lenses, a private sector led economy where the govt functions as the hand maiden of the coroporate sector. Guyana was clearly not that in 1980. The private sector eked out an existence in little corners of the economy and was easily victimized. An African controlled political elite called the shots and all had to bend to their will. You know this baseman.

And yes in 2011 AfroGuyanese do feel shut out, much as grass roots Indians felt in 1980...and if your AFC doesnt understand this they have few votes to get from them.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by warrior:
bullshit i have lots of black friends i never hear that crap,e


Maybe they just dont tell you this. Ever thought of that?

As of now Roger Luncheon is being made to look like a jackass because he has no response to obvious proof of PPP racism against blacks.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by D2:
I do not have the trend data of national turnout or rural to urban turnout. If the population has not heard of the AFC and do not know the PPP is autocratic and there is need to change at this point, that is not the AFC's fault. It is their own fault and sorry to say they will get the usual mediocre service in return.

Further, the PPP uses state resources and entertainment lure and are rolling in cash from their personal loot stash and returns on patronage. The do indeed have an advantage. However, one cannot say that the spending of limited resources on people who ought to know their disadvantages of not voting to their communities ( as they are disproportionately affected) then you need to ease up on suggestions of AFC oversight or neglect.


The AFC needs to prove to the population that they have the capacity to implement the changes that they claim to have. They need to communicate that, not only will they SAY that they will be inclusive, but they will also be inclusive. The AFc has to communicate that they are likely to win, or at least do well enough to be a power player in a hopefully diminished PPP. If not then their talk becomes mere rhetoric.

The AFC is entitled to nothing, and if Guyanese stay away from the polls it will be because none of the parties instilled in them a sense of trust. Parties have to earn their votes.

The AFC was fully aware that the PPP had the advantage of incumbency (use of tax dollars and superior ability to raise funds from the rich)in attracting crowds through entertainment. They have the ability to win sufficient "cross over" Amerindian and African v otes by dropping largesse just before the elections to ensure victory.

The AFC knew this and should have planned for this, so crying about this now shows poor planning on their part.
You are beginning to sound like these PPP fools. The only imperative of an opposition party confronting an incumbent is to point to their errors and say what they will do different. Credibility here is not a about proof but by example and inference. It is about the reasonableness of the offering. Rhetoric here is an apt tool.

There is never a view that their or that party is entitled. At least democratic precepts do not accede to such a proposition. It is easy to say one should have planned this or that from the sidelines. They are in the trenches and I am sure had they access to unlimited resources they would have accessed it. Unfortunately, they must cull pennies from among the ranks of the dispossessed and penniless so they rely heavily on their sweat equity.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by warrior:
bullshit i have lots of black friends i never hear that crap,e


Maybe they just dont tell you this. Ever thought of that?

As of now Roger Luncheon is being made to look like a jackass because he has no response to obvious proof of PPP racism against blacks.
you right ppp racism those not translate in the whole country racism.the other 80% of the people is trying earn a living
W
quote:
Originally posted by warrior:
quote:
Originally posted by caribj:
quote:
Originally posted by warrior:
bullshit i have lots of black friends i never hear that crap,e


Maybe they just dont tell you this. Ever thought of that?

As of now Roger Luncheon is being made to look like a jackass because he has no response to obvious proof of PPP racism against blacks.
you right ppp racism those not translate in the whole country racism.the other 80% of the people is trying earn a living


funny. Why would the PPP display racism if it wasnt embedded within the psyche of their supporters? And I will pose the same question for the PNC, which was surely as aggressively racist towards Indians in its time.

Cheddi and Burnham were friends to the end. The racism they encouraged/tolerated, or how ever you wish to call it, was a reflection of what they saw among Guyanese and was done to ensure they would keep their support bases.

Indians and Africans fear each other, dont expect each other to be fair, and so engage in racist acts against each other. Neither the PPP nor the PNC caused that. They merely feast off it. If Guyanese didnt want it that would have ended long ago.


So warrior blacks today feel the sting of Indo racism against them just as Indians of the 1970s and 80s felt the sting of Afro racism against them.

To deny this is to fool yourself.

Also note that the "nonracist" AFC only got 8% of the votes last time. Most Guyanese supported ther traditional race based parties. We will see what will happen this time. But most seem to think a PPP victory is certain as their supporters cant seem to risk loss of ethnic hegemony even though they know the PPP is just plain bad. "Ahbe pan tap" is a powerful feeling.
FM
One thing I must say about Jagdeo. Unlike the Jagans he does not have time to go around kissing people tails. He does not have the time to go to enemy opponents houses to eat grill cheese sandwishes. His thinking is very similar to George W Bush. "It is either you are for me or against me" If you are for me then you are my friend if you are against me then you are my enemy. So if you are going to shower me with bullets then expect me to shower you with bullets also.

Unlike the Jagans, Jagdeo has sent a clear message to the racists, bigots and criminals. "This Sunny Liston will hit you to next week if you mess with innocent people".

That is the man's greatest achievement. I prefer that approach instead of some philosophy speech on "Working class achievements and struggles against the establishment" from the Jagans.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
One thing I must say about Jagdeo. Unlike the Jagans he does not have time to go around kissing people tails. He does not have the time to go to enemy opponents houses to eat grill cheese sandwishes. His thinking is very similar to George W Bush. "It is either you are for me or against me" If you are for me then you are my friend if you are against me then you are my enemy. So if you are going to shower me with bullets then expect me to shower you with bullets also.

Unlike to Jagans, Jagdeo has sent a clear message to the racists, bigots and criminals. "This Sunny Liston will hit you to next week if you mess with innocent people".

That is the man's greatest achievement. I prefer that approach instead of some philosophy speach on working class achievements and struggles against the establishment from the Jagans.
His greatest achievement to date is to lie to the Guyanese public that he had a wife, to lock the lady out of his marriage bed one week after the marriage and to deny her proper support. Your main charge is your wife. He did all of that and yet faced us like he did nothing and insisted it is a personal matter. And all the kings men and sycophants fell into line. If you mistreat your wife the rest is irrelevant.
FM
This is the kind of things that happen when the government is too lopsided. One of the worse crimes was when peoples' vehicles were impounded for having flour in them. It is understandable that the country couldn't afford to import flour but that shouldn't make it a contrabanned product. Products should be banned only if they are dangerous. Other things should only be scarce or unavailable. Many of those who lost their vehicles relied solely on those vehicles for their livelihood.

Guyana needs to change their election process to something regional with parliamentary representation tied to regional population. This will go a far way to balancing the voting process in parliament.
FM

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