yuji22 posted:

Rammo was a political dunce. Jagdeo on the other hand, is a very intelligent politician.

He is a "Burnhamite" look how quick he shield himself with the illegal 1980 Constitution,now he wants to run the again.

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

Rammo was a political dunce. Jagdeo on the other hand, is a very intelligent politician.

He is a "Burnhamite" look how quick he shield himself with the illegal 1980 Constitution,now he wants to run the again.

Yes, but the AFC/PNC too has no interest in changing it. 

yuji22 posted:

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

Rammo was a political dunce. Jagdeo on the other hand, is a very intelligent politician.

He is a "Burnhamite" look how quick he shield himself with the illegal 1980 Constitution,now he wants to run the again.

Yes, but the AFC/PNC too has no interest in changing it. 

Both party not interested,the people need to protest.

Presidential Powers should be limited.

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

Rammo was a political dunce. Jagdeo on the other hand, is a very intelligent politician.

He is a "Burnhamite" look how quick he shield himself with the illegal 1980 Constitution,now he wants to run the again.

Yes, but the AFC/PNC too has no interest in changing it. 

Both party not interested,the people need to protest.

Presidential Powers should be limited.

I have to agree but until it is changed, it can be taken advantage of. That's politics.

The ball is now in the AFC/PNC court. They made a very big deal about while in opposition and have suddenly gone silent and appear to have forgotten about this issue.

yuji22 posted: The ball is now in the AFC/PNC court. They made a very big deal about while in opposition and have suddenly gone silent and appear to have forgotten about this issue.

Absolutely. One of the main planks in the APNU+AFC Manifesto was Constitutional Reform, especially as it relates to excessive powers of the President. Those crooks conned us. Wha me must call dem? Katahar? Gaddaha? Filth heads? There is no title in the GNI vocabulary to fit those deceitful people.

As for the PPP, even Jagan was unwilling to amend the Constitution and reduce presidential powers. Disappointing, to say the least.

Gilbakka posted:

As for the PPP, even Jagan was unwilling to amend the Constitution and reduce presidential powers. Disappointing, to say the least.

I don't think he was unwilling...he just didn't see a need for it given his honesty and caring.  However, there is a reason why a person's historical significance is not written the day he/she dies. Jagan was very popular and well liked the day he died.  However, it turns out that he was a very poor leader and is a reason why we are in the situation we are in today.

The lack of constitutional reform and putting square pegs in round holes during his term mark his mediocre presidency.  He was a great, honest, knowledgeable man but a very poor leader.

Hey D2 - Please see if you could dig up the thread on Leadership also.  Too bad we lost these discussions if we did.

Guyana should revert to the 1966 Independence Constitution.

March 30, 2017 Source

Dear Editor,

I read that the Carter Center and the University of Guyana will host a symposium on constitutional reform on Friday, March 31. It is my opinion that proportional representation (PR) and the list system have harmed race relations and the democratic process in Guyana by enabling racial mobilization and party dictatorship. The consequences have been ethnic division, a farce of a parliament, and a mockery of coalition politics.

Under our electoral system voters do not directly elect their members of parliament (MP). Rather we vote for a list of candidates that are fielded by the political parties and the political parties through the List of Representatives select the MPs. In reality the political bosses select the MPs. The MPs are not accountable to local constituencies but rather to the party. In Parliament the MP is not allowed to vote according to conscience but must toe the party line or risk being fired by the party. This most certainly is not parliamentary democracy but party dictatorship.

Coupled with party dictatorship is racial mobilization. If we look at our political history we will see that since PR was introduced in December 1964 it made it much easier for the main parties to engage in electoral mobilization along racial lines, so much so that today in 2017 we have entrenched racial blocs supporting both parties. There is no need for the parties to have good programmes and appeal to reason. It is much easier to appeal to race by subtle and sometimes crude language. There is no need for a candidate to work house to house in seeking the votes of all, irrespective of ethnicity as was the case when we had first past the post (FPTP) prior to 1964.

Post-1964 found that both major parties had embraced Socialist ideology which naturally inculcated dictatorship instincts in their leadership. Such dictatorial instincts spilled over to the Parliament where they literally opposed each other. No matter what the PNC proposed the PPP opposed and vice versa. There was never compromise. It was always about the majority party getting its way. The only time the PPP and PNC found common ground was to pass the Recall Bill which gave them legal ownership of the parliamentary seats and the power to fire dissenting MPs! It also effectively turned Parliament into a farce. All of this because of the list system.

The list system has essentially made a mockery of post-independence coalition politics, as coalitions must be formed before elections and they must also put up a common list with the List Represen-tative selecting the MPs. It means that no one party owns a seat or seats. A party cannot leave the coalition with its seats. If a party walks away the seats remain with the coalition. In such an arrangement the smaller parties are rendered impotent, unless they control the List Representa-tive, which would be most unlikely. So smaller parties must accept the dictates of the larger ones. In Guyana a coalition government simply cannot be brought down by a junior partner. This is totally different from real parliamentary democracies that adhere to the Westminster constitutions under which they all got at Independence.

All the functioning parliamentary democracies such as India, Barbados, Jamaica, and Trinidad and Tobago have one thing in common: They all kept the Westminster type constitutions that they got from the British. So my first recommendation is for Guyana to revert to the 1966 Independence Constitution, but I know the main parties would not do so.

My other recommendations are as follows: replace PR with FPTP thereby ending the list system; repeal the Recall Bill thereby enabling MPs to vote according to conscience; scrap the rule that disallows post-election coalitions thereby permitting post-election coalitions with every party having their own seats.

Yours faithfully,

Malcolm Harripaul

Gilbakka posted:

yuji22 posted: The ball is now in the AFC/PNC court. They made a very big deal about while in opposition and have suddenly gone silent and appear to have forgotten about this issue.

Absolutely. One of the main planks in the APNU+AFC Manifesto was Constitutional Reform, especially as it relates to excessive powers of the President. Those crooks conned us. Wha me must call dem? Katahar? Gaddaha? Filth heads? There is no title in the GNI vocabulary to fit those deceitful people.

As for the PPP, even Jagan was unwilling to amend the Constitution and reduce presidential powers. Disappointing, to say the least.

So why the AFC is no longer talking about constitutional reforms?  They seem to be in the role of dancing for the PNC instead of the PNC dancing for them.

yuji22 posted:

I have proven something in this post which proves my point that Guyana should make it mandatory to have race relations at all levels of the education system.

 

Guyanese aren't ignorant of each other.  And aside from a minority of Indo KKK racists like you, they don't hate one another either.

Now YOU need to be educated to the fact that blacks aren't lazy, criminal or useless and that it isn't the height of disgrace if a member of your family marries a suitable person who happens to be black. 

YOU need to be educated to the fact that racism has been practiced by both groups when they have power, and that both groups, and others have suffered.

YOU need to understand that Indians face criminal assault, not only from blacks, but increasingly from Indians as well.

Solution.

1. We need to listen to each other. If blacks tell you that Jagdeo is a racist and the PPP discriminated against blacks then you ought to listen. 

You never see me arguing with you about the racism of the PNC during the Burnham era. If the majority of Indians claim that they faced racism then they did. The fact that a small % enriched themselves with black market activities which arose when Burnham destroyed the economy is not relevant.

2.We need to identify ethnically based barriers to social and economic integration because this is what bothers people in 2017. They couldn't care less about the early 60s, or even the Burnham era.  Its those of us who migrated who still do.

3. We need to have a discussion about what Guyana is and understand that it is a multi ethnic, multi cultural and multi religious. We need to understand that not only is there this diversity but that most Guyanese incorporate elements of this WITHIN their daily lives. 

So those who debase creole culture and scream for India need to stop being ridiculous. India no longer sees you as one of them.  We all exist within various continuums of a diverse creolized culture, and we manifest this as we see relevant.  Changing depending on context.

4.  Guyanese need to cease to expect politicians to control their lives. It is up to civic society (trade unions, youth groups, business groups, civic groups like the Jaycees, religious groups, etc.) to mobilize the population and to communicate with the politicians their expectations of them. 

T&T is also diverse as Guyana and yet the sort of nonsense that Burnham, Jagdeo and now Harmon get up to would NEVER be allowed in that country, because the politicians know that civic society in T&T will NOT tolerate that.

Under Kamla one of her ministers refused to listen to a CAL cabin attendant who told him to turn off his cell phone. He "accidentally" brushed her breasts.  He was fired.

Under Jagdeo/Ramotar a minister pistol whips some one, another drives drunk and hits some one and yet another has a son who sexually assaulted some one, and then bribed a cop to cover this up. NOTHING happened!

I suggest that you stop worshipping a racist Jagdeo when the 29% of the population which is African and the 20% of the population which is mixed (many of these mixed identified individuals are people who you would call black) say he was a racist when he was in power. If almost half of the population see him as an ogre then clearly he is NOT the solution.

yuji22 posted:

 solution.

Bhai

I politely disagree. The PNC has damaged race relations to a point where the country is even more polarized and the level of mistrust is at an all time high.

 

 

 

This is why there will  be ethnic mistrust in Guyana. So caught up in your "Indian Narrative" that you fail to understand that other narratives exist.

As to the PPP reaching out to blacks. Well they had 23 years to do so but instead engaged in the same rampant racism that you accuse the PNC of practicing. 

You want to divide the black vote to get Indian dominance, now that Indians are a declining population. What does that have to do with solving the problem?

You know what might change the situation. Let the PPP select is its leader a black man who enjoys popularity among blacks. Nigel Hughes as the PPP presidential candidate will be a game changer.

Django posted:

Guyana should revert to the 1966 Independence Constitution.

March 30, 2017 Source

 

Coupled with party dictatorship is racial mobilization. If we look at our political history we will see that since PR was introduced in December 1964 it made it much easier for the main parties to engage in electoral mobilization along racial lines,

Malcolm Harripaul

While I agree that MPs serving at the pleasure of the party and not of the voters is a fast fire way to dictatorship he mustn't pretend that ethnic voting only began in 1964. It was a feature of the elections in 1956 and in 1961 as well.

The solution cannot be political. It is a healthier civic environment where Guyanese at large, and not just the politicians, deal with the issue of ethnic mistrust which will lead to a healthier political environment.

Guyanese must stop fooling themselves that the fact that they tolerate each other on a daily basis means that all is well and that its only the politicians who create the problem. We vote for our monster because we fear what will happen to us if the other monster is in charge.

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

caribny posted:

Django posted:

Guyana should revert to the 1966 Independence Constitution.

March 30, 2017 Source

 

Coupled with party dictatorship is racial mobilization. If we look at our political history we will see that since PR was introduced in December 1964 it made it much easier for the main parties to engage in electoral mobilization along racial lines,

Malcolm Harripaul

While I agree that MPs serving at the pleasure of the party and not of the voters is a fast fire way to dictatorship he mustn't pretend that ethnic voting only began in 1964. It was a feature of the elections in 1956 and in 1961 as well.

The solution cannot be political. It is a healthier civic environment where Guyanese at large, and not just the politicians, deal with the issue of ethnic mistrust which will lead to a healthier political environment.

Guyanese must stop fooling themselves that the fact that they tolerate each other on a daily basis means that all is well and that its only the politicians who create the problem. We vote for our monster because we fear what will happen to us if the other monster is in charge.

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese. There are quite a few Guyanese working where I work both Indo and Afro and I have yet to see any sort of clannishness or the like. And I am speaking about people from recent college graduates to people close to retirement. I suppose it's all about how you feel and how you treat people. If you think someone is different or inferior or however else you may envision them, then you're very likely to see that sentiment reciprocated.  

GTAngler posted:

 

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese.

Where do Indians live? Where do black Guyanese live? What associations do they have where there are equally involved?

It is an accepted fact that in NYC Indo and Afro Guyanese have little to do with each other.

I look forward to your lists of all of the Guyanese associations where involvement is at least 60:40.

What you purport to be your experience is irrelevant when there are at least 200k Guyanese living in NYC.

In fact on GNI we all know who is Indian and who isn't, even though we don't know each other, and not every one identifies who they are upfront.

Irrelevant, probably. The norm, also probably. I'll wager it's more that the few here out of that 200,000. By the way, a few of the younger Guyanese here were born in the US and when we converse among ourselves you couldn't tell. Two of Afro descent and one of Indo.  I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you why we ended up in Queens. The relatives we came to lived in Queens and when we moved to an apartment, a family friend knew someone, another Guyanese who had a building in Queens with reasonable rent. It was either Queens or a building in Far Rockaway. We knew nobody there so here we are. Lot of the old man's friends and colleagues lived in Brooklyn and he organized several club competitions between social clubs there and here in Queens. People will move where they feel the most comfortable and where it's also economically feasible.

GTAngler posted:

Irrelevant, probably. The norm, also probably..

The norm is that even in Queens Afro and Indo Guyanese live in different neighborhoods, move in different social circles and don't miss each other.

Face it. We don't trust each other, nor do we see each other as one people.

Not saying you're entirely wrong. There are those elements which have held on to that historical racial bias and in some cases, religious bigotry. It prevails mostly among the older generation. I specifically mentioned those three here because that's what I am hoping for the future. Unless we have some level of compromise and cooperation, we aren't going anywhere.

GTAngler posted:

caribny posted:

Django posted:

 

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese. There are quite a few Guyanese working where I work both Indo and Afro and I have yet to see any sort of clannishness or the like. And I am speaking about people from recent college graduates to people close to retirement. I suppose it's all about how you feel and how you treat people. If you think someone is different or inferior or however else you may envision them, then you're very likely to see that sentiment reciprocated.  

Never had a problem with Afro Guyanese over here.  I have met many in social and working environment and they have all been helpful.  The distrust between races were created by politics.  Prior to the 1960s there was not that much distrust.

caribny posted:

GTAngler posted:

Irrelevant, probably. The norm, also probably..

The norm is that even in Queens Afro and Indo Guyanese live in different neighborhoods, move in different social circles and don't miss each other.

Face it. We don't trust each other, nor do we see each other as one people.

You don't have to live together to trust each other.  I have a friend in Guyana who hires mainly blacks from the other village and they have great relationships.

I lived among blacks in Barr St and never a problem.  In fact, the problems I had were mainly with Indians.

It is the uninformed that allow themselves to be caught in the race-based political trap.

Thank you.

VVP posted:

caribny posted:

GTAngler posted:

Irrelevant, probably. The norm, also probably..

The norm is that even in Queens Afro and Indo Guyanese live in different neighborhoods, move in different social circles and don't miss each other.

Face it. We don't trust each other, nor do we see each other as one people.

You don't have to live together to trust each other.  I have a friend in Guyana who hires mainly blacks from the other village and they have great relationships.

I lived among blacks in Barr St and never a problem.  In fact, the problems I had were mainly with Indians.

It is the uninformed that allow themselves to be caught in the race-based political trap.

Same here VVP,we can shake hand.