Gilbakka posted:

Bibi Haniffa posted:

So you mean to say you are not a Brooklynite?

Honorary Brooklynite. Like Honorary Doctorate. 

Massa - there is no such thing as Honorary Brooklynite.  You have to barn and grow near Flatbush Avenue to earn your stripes!!!!!!

caribny posted:

VVP posted:

 

Never had problem at UG with Afro class mates.  We used to socialize heavily...meaning drink rum at the rum shops on UG road 

I am sure that you have decent arrangements with those who you work with. That doesn't mean that you consider yourself an American, or they consider you to be one either.  Or at least some one who is American in the same way that they consider themselves to be.

The issue is that Afro and Indo Guyanese have an opinion of each other as a group.  Afro Guyanese see Indians as being "racial" and clannish, and not a group which can be trusted.  This doesn't mean that they don't have Indians friends or associates  who they trust.  Its the Indian who they don't know.

I am willing to bet that Indians have a narrative about Afros indicating levels of distrust.

I can imagine that a white American will claim that he gets on well with the blacks at work. I don't think that any sane and honest person will claim that black and white Americans, as a group, trust each other.

I don't disagree that Afro Guyanese see Indians as clannish and Indians see Africans as hostile.  That's the nature of the beast based on stereotyping.  This does not mean that large sections cannot work together and that they automatically distrust each other.  I think at the professional level there could be complete harmony and trust.

I think that I am always highly respected and trusted by my bosses in USA who are/were all whites.  However, when it comes to promotion of a white vs a non-white the white tend to get promotion first...that's my experience.  

I have never sucked up for a promotion and did as well as I could do.  I cannot go further unless my boss gets promoted or retires because I am at a point in the pyramid where there is only one person above me in my line of work.

The bottom line is that you can build trust by working hard.  I don't think there is a genetic mistrust built into human beings.  You have to work to build trust.

VVP posted:

caribny posted:

VVP posted:

 

Never had problem at UG with Afro class mates.  We used to socialize heavily...meaning drink rum at the rum shops on UG road 

I am sure that you have decent arrangements with those who you work with. That doesn't mean that you consider yourself an American, or they consider you to be one either.  Or at least some one who is American in the same way that they consider themselves to be.

The issue is that Afro and Indo Guyanese have an opinion of each other as a group.  Afro Guyanese see Indians as being "racial" and clannish, and not a group which can be trusted.  This doesn't mean that they don't have Indians friends or associates  who they trust.  Its the Indian who they don't know.

I am willing to bet that Indians have a narrative about Afros indicating levels of distrust.

I can imagine that a white American will claim that he gets on well with the blacks at work. I don't think that any sane and honest person will claim that black and white Americans, as a group, trust each other.

I don't disagree that Afro Guyanese see Indians as clannish and Indians see Africans as hostile.  That's the nature of the beast based on stereotyping.  This does not mean that large sections cannot work together and that they automatically distrust each other.  I think at the professional level there could be complete harmony and trust.

I think that I am always highly respected and trusted by my bosses in USA who are/were all whites.  However, when it comes to promotion of a white vs a non-white the white tend to get promotion first...that's my experience.  

I have never sucked up for a promotion and did as well as I could do.  I cannot go further unless my boss gets promoted or retires because I am at a point in the pyramid where there is only one person above me in my line of work.  Beyond my boss everyone serves at the pleasure of the governor and I am NOT going to be one of them.

The bottom line is that you can build trust by working hard.  I don't think there is a genetic mistrust built into human beings.  You have to work to build trust.

In all fairness,

This is the most informative and eye opening discussion that I have ever seen on GNI. It opens up and reveals the issue of race through the eyes of both Indos and Afros.

The biggest question now is how can we apply what we have learnt in order to start building bridges with each other ?

On the whole, Carib has brought up a lot of valid points, I do not agree with everything but I can live with most of what he has stated.

This now leads to my question, should Guyana not have a Truth Commission like they did in South Africa to heal old wounds that are like a massive sore for Afros and Indos ?

Please chime in and please let us keep this discussion civil.

Yuji, ending the racial divide in Guyana is not a priority for PPP nor PNC. Both parties depend heavily on their racial stronghold to win elections. This is a historical fact. Why do you think Granger is taking care of Lindeners and other black dominated areas? Jagdeo is very likable by most blacks in Guyana, but look what happen in Sophia when Granger walk through the area, despite what Jadgeo has done for Sophia. Coolie and Jagdeo never seem to exist. 

VVP posted:

seignet posted:

VVP posted:

GTAngler posted:

caribny posted:

Django posted:

 

We don't trust each other and one can see this right here in NYC where black and Indian Guyanese have almost nothing to do with each other.  We don't live under Granger or Jagdeo and yet ethnic mistrust still dominates, to the point where this is highly noticeable even to non Caribbean people.

Speak fuh yuhself cuz. My Guyanese friends are just that, Guyanese. There are quite a few Guyanese working where I work both Indo and Afro and I have yet to see any sort of clannishness or the like. And I am speaking about people from recent college graduates to people close to retirement. I suppose it's all about how you feel and how you treat people. If you think someone is different or inferior or however else you may envision them, then you're very likely to see that sentiment reciprocated.  

Never had a problem with Afro Guyanese over here.  I have met many in social and working environment and they have all been helpful.  The distrust between races were created by politics.  Prior to the 1960s there was not that much distrust.

 

I disagree.

Indians rarely socialize with Blacks, perhaps bcz what was implied about their backwardness. ie in the early days of vacating the logies

Do not forget, Black people in BG were highly socialized and uppity, even the lowly ones. And many young Indians in the 40's and 60's who mingled outside of the logie communities picked many sociable traits from Black people.

Never had problem at UG with Afro class mates.  We used to socialize heavily...meaning drink rum at the rum shops on UG road 

Neither did I. I attended a Technical School that drew 20 students throughout the county of Berbice each year since 1957. There were a limited number of Black students, we all got along well. We were 15 years old, suh there was no drinking. Bookers ran a very disciplined school.

Even though we all got along, there were differences. Attitudes will say alot.

Racism did not start out with Forbes and Cheddie. Intoterance was always in the society, be it blacks against blacks. As noted by the Georgetown group of Marcus Garvey followers. The Portuguese had there part in the intolerance schemes in BG as well. The League of Colored People had there part in it too. I would suspect they knew the challenge of the East Indian in the colony, even by mere numbers they were going to pose a threat. That is why Carter chastise Forbes for teaming up with the Jagans. On that account, history proved the exhange of discussions.

Why then are we bewildered that Guyana is reeked with racial and religious differences to the point of hate and domination.

Every Primer, Prime Minister and President had with them a number of Afro and Indo elites. They appear not to be racist.

I read somewhere, an excellent leader makes decisions for seven generations. That is nation building. Guyana HAS NEVER had such a man or woman.

The country needs a visionary. By his actions, citizen will have hope. 

Racism will always exist in Guyana, but with a good life, prejudices will be less botherrsome.

VVP posted:

.

I don't disagree that Afro Guyanese see Indians as clannish and Indians see Africans as hostile.  

 

 However, when it comes to promotion of a white vs a non-white the white tend to get promotion first...that's my experience.  

.

This is why there is ethnic distrust in Guyana.   This is why this distrust is probably higher in the professional circles than among the working class.

Africans fear that Indo clannishness means that an Indo boss, or an Indo dominated government will mean that they will be excluded, or marginalized.  I remember seeing a company located in the G/T area where the manager was an Indian. In announcing almost 30 new hires fewer than 5 were non Indian.  I wondered how in the G/T area such a low % of black new employees was possible.

I am not Indian so will not opine as to why Indians don't like/fear Afro leadership. I do know for a fact that this extends to NYC as I know of some Guyanese groups, led by Afro Guyanese, more specifically Afro Guyanese women, which have bent over backwards to attract Indians, and have failed. So they have given up.  The few Indians who come along being the type who are derided here on GNI as "Cuffy lovers", "Congo Lovers". "neemakaram", etc.

Ethnic tension in Guyana is institutional, not social. While I can imagine some Indo and Afro neighbors might be initially suspicious of each other, normally over time they get on, and may even become friends.  It is the perception that institutions dominated by one group cannot be fair to the other that leads to the problem.  Institutions are almost always dominated by the upper echelons of a group.

Carib, I just asked for you on another thread. You will live a long time!

Go to the Haitian thread.

Cobra posted:

? Jagdeo is very likable by most blacks in Guyana,

And what evidence do you have? He goes some where and a few people shake his hand?  Well Indians shake Granger's hands and used to hug up Burnham too.  People respond in a certain way when a powerful person is within their midst, but that doesn't mean that they like them.

The PPP fools themselves with this nonsense that blacks like them and every election they discover otherwise, so they then wail about "dem blackman ungrateful".

seignet posted:

The Portuguese had there part in the intolerance schemes in BG as well. The League of Colored People had there part in it too. I would suspect they knew the challenge of the East Indian in the colony, even by mere numbers they were going to pose a threat.

As is usual with the Indo KKK every one is blamed for racism other than Indians.

I will suggest to you that plans by certain Indian elites in the early 20th century of fostering more immigration by Indian indentures, with the goal of turning British Guiana into "an Indian colony," wasn't going to reassure other groups.  And in fact it led to an ethnic race with "colored" groups then demanding more immigration from the Caribbean to prevent non Indians from being outnumbered.  THAT was the beginning of our Indo vs. Afro/mixed competition in Guyana.

If Brazilians walked into Guyana and then declared that they will want more Brazilians in so that Guyana could then become a de facto part of Brazil I am willing to be that you will become alarmed, and justifiably so.

cain posted:

Racial strife could end when they put those such as yourselves in quarantine for the rest of your lives.

Unfortunately this is not such a practical solution and we'll just have to wait for these racist ole Cretins to succumb and hopefully they haven't infected their young with their dreadful disease.

Bibi Haniffa posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Bibi Haniffa posted:

So you mean to say you are not a Brooklynite?

Honorary Brooklynite. Like Honorary Doctorate. 

Massa - there is no such thing as Honorary Brooklynite.  You have to barn and grow near Flatbush Avenue to earn your stripes!!!!!!

Missy, lemme tell yuh someting hey. Gilbakka has many genuine friends in Brooklyn. And he is assured of VIP welcome anytime he decides to visit Brooklyn. And furthermore, lemme talk me mind: me nah like Richmond Hill, period.

Mars posted:

cain posted:

Racial strife could end when they put those such as yourselves in quarantine for the rest of your lives.

Unfortunately this is not such a practical solution and we'll just have to wait for these racist ole Cretins to succumb andhopefully they haven't infected their young with their dreadful disease.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the young have already been infected with "their dreadful disease". As God above me, Mars, the way the 2015 election campaign was proceeding in Guyana I never expected the PPP to perform so well at the polls. Old and young Indians closed ranks at the crucial moment, thanks to the timely intervention of Ramharack, Ravi Dev, Ryhaan Shah, the Swami etc. One more thing: Jagan knew his electoral base was the Indo community but never did he say openly that the PPP is a coolie people party, as Rohee did just before the elections. That statement helped to rally the herd.

caribny posted:

VVP posted:

.

I don't disagree that Afro Guyanese see Indians as clannish and Indians see Africans as hostile.  

 

 However, when it comes to promotion of a white vs a non-white the white tend to get promotion first...that's my experience.  

.

 

Ethnic tension in Guyana is institutional, not social. 

I think you are saying that ethic tension is driven by races-based politics, which I agree with.

I do hope and genuinely believe that a totally inclusive political party can be formed in Guyana to erase the race-based politics.  In fact, I hope that a party can be formed of technocrats whose only interest is to lay the foundation for future generations and get out and in the process develop an inclusive POLITICAL party to carry on.  Is this a dream?

I believe that technocrats who have "been there done that" would not see political positions in Guyana as positions of power and prestige as the current flock do.

caribny posted:

seignet posted:

The Portuguese had there part in the intolerance schemes in BG as well. The League of Colored People had there part in it too. I would suspect they knew the challenge of the East Indian in the colony, even by mere numbers they were going to pose a threat.

As is usual with the Indo KKK every one is blamed for racism other than Indians.

I will suggest to you that plans by certain Indian elites in the early 20th century of fostering more immigration by Indian indentures, with the goal of turning British Guiana into "an Indian colony," wasn't going to reassure other groups.  And in fact it led to an ethnic race with "colored" groups then demanding more immigration from the Caribbean to prevent non Indians from being outnumbered.  THAT was the beginning of our Indo vs. Afro/mixed competition in Guyana.

If Brazilians walked into Guyana and then declared that they will want more Brazilians in so that Guyana could then become a de facto part of Brazil I am willing to be that you will become alarmed, and justifiably so.

To be specific, the Luckhoos wanted to bring in more indentures into the colony. I do not believe it was their intentions to marginalized the Amerindians, the Negroes or the Coloreds. The Portuguese and Chinese were a small portion of the population and there were no Douglas or mixtures of Chinese and Portuguese. There were a sizeable number of Buffiandahs.

FRom among the peoples living in the colony, it was the Coloreds, mainly eurocentric and educated were really concerned over the plan. Ofcourse, they had great influence in the colony. They scuttled the plan. By then, it was too late, the indentureds were a great number. The Coloreds used their influence to secure benefits for their group. Later, the British Guiana East Indian Association would imitate the efforts of the Coloreds, moving up the Colonial Ladder. Now, there were Coloreds and East Indians from BG being patronized by the Crown. And there began a silent animosity.

Unfortunately, poorer class Guyanese would feel the perils of that era.    

Even when old cretchens die, Racism will always exist in Guyana and elsewhere. Another two isms are Militarism and Consumerism. Those three affects the poorer classes of people all over the world.

Gilbakka posted:

Mars posted:

cain posted:

Racial strife could end when they put those such as yourselves in quarantine for the rest of your lives.

Unfortunately this is not such a practical solution and we'll just have to wait for these racist ole Cretins to succumb andhopefully they haven't infected their young with their dreadful disease.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the young have already been infected with "their dreadful disease". As God above me, Mars, the way the 2015 election campaign was proceeding in Guyana I never expected the PPP to perform so well at the polls. Old and young Indians closed ranks at the crucial moment, thanks to the timely intervention of Ramharack, Ravi Dev, Ryhaan Shah, the Swami etc. One more thing: Jagan knew his electoral base was the Indo community but never did he say openly that the PPP is a coolie people party, as Rohee did just before the elections. That statement helped to rally the herd.

Gil,

You can do a lot better than this. Blacks voted PNC as much as Indos voted PPP at the last general election. I can further add that some Indians were open minded enough to give the PNC a try and we all know the end result today.

Why identify that Indos vote PPP alone and intentionally ignore that blacks voted 99 percent PNC at the last election ?

We need to first acknowledge that the issue of race based voting in Guyana with both blacks and Indos. This is not exclusive to Indos only.

Please don't get sucked in by the Afrocentrics like Mars who see every Indo who speak out against racism as racists. How come Afros who speak out against discrimination are not seen as racists ?

Why the double standard ?

There is a different and unacceptable standard by used by Afrocentrics like Mars.  

They DO NOT want to see racial unity in Guyana and constantly poke the eyes of Indos and use bullying tactics as a method to diminish racial unity in Guyana by labelling Indos who speak out as racists.

Please try again.

yuji22 posted:

 

 

Gil,

 

Please don't get sucked in by the Afrocentrics like Mars who see every Indo who speak out against racism as racists. How come Afros who speak out against discrimination are not seen as racists ?

Why the double standard ?

There is a different and unacceptable standard by used by Afrocentrics like Mars.  

 

I'll let Mars respond to this one. Mars Afrocentric? Please consult your mental health specialist again.

yuji22 posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Mars posted:

cain posted:

Racial strife could end when they put those such as yourselves in quarantine for the rest of your lives.

Unfortunately this is not such a practical solution and we'll just have to wait for these racist ole Cretins to succumb andhopefully they haven't infected their young with their dreadful disease.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the young have already been infected with "their dreadful disease". As God above me, Mars, the way the 2015 election campaign was proceeding in Guyana I never expected the PPP to perform so well at the polls. Old and young Indians closed ranks at the crucial moment, thanks to the timely intervention of Ramharack, Ravi Dev, Ryhaan Shah, the Swami etc. One more thing: Jagan knew his electoral base was the Indo community but never did he say openly that the PPP is a coolie people party, as Rohee did just before the elections. That statement helped to rally the herd.

Gil,

You can do a lot better than this. Blacks voted PNC as much as Indos voted PPP at the last general election. I can further add that some Indians were open minded enough to give the PNC a try and we all know the end result today.

Why identify that Indos vote PPP alone and intentionally ignore that blacks voted 99 percent PNC at the last election ?

We need to first acknowledge that the issue of race based voting in Guyana with both blacks and Indos. This is not exclusive to Indos only.

Please don't get sucked in by the Afrocentrics like Mars who see every Indo who speak out against racism as racists. How come Afros who speak out against discrimination are not seen as racists ?

Why the double standard ?

There is a different and unacceptable standard by used by Afrocentrics like Mars.  

They DO NOT want to see racial unity in Guyana and constantly poke the eyes of Indos and use bullying tactics as a method to diminish racial unity in Guyana by labelling Indos who speak out as racists.

Please try again.

You're sofa king stupid, it ain't funny. Am I Black and Afrocentric? You have to make up all kinds of shit which is obviously ludicrous to anyone who knows me. How can a vile racist like you even dare to mention racial unity? Have you no bloody shame?

Gilbakka posted:

yuji22 posted:

 

 

Gil,

 

Please don't get sucked in by the Afrocentrics like Mars who see every Indo who speak out against racism as racists. How come Afros who speak out against discrimination are not seen as racists ?

Why the double standard ?

There is a different and unacceptable standard by used by Afrocentrics like Mars.  

 

I'll let Mars respond to this one. Mars Afrocentric? Please consult your mental health specialist again.

He needs to go back to BMH for additional treatment

Gilbakka posted:

.As God above me, Mars, the way the 2015 election campaign was proceeding in Guyana I never expected the PPP to perform so well at the polls..

Guyanese use two strategies as they seek t avoid discussions of race.

1.  "Is de palitishun to blame. WE does get on except during elections". Said with a straight face even after the AFC tried to campaign in 2006 and in 2011 as a non race based party, and was thoroughly rejected by Guyanese who exercised their democratic rights to vote for the same ones who they blame.

2.  "Is only de ol' people racial. We does mix, and gat fren of all races". Yet with a very young voting base and a very high voter turn out 2015 turned out to be the same ethnic census that every election has been since 1957. 

If young Guyanese were non racial Jagdeo wouldn't be the racist charlatan that he is, as he was born after the 60s in a relatively diverse part of Guyana, and was expected to be better when he assumed the presidency.  Jagdeo wasn't even 40 when he became president.  He turned out to be far more racist, and exploitative of racial angst then his mentor Cheddi Jagan who was considerably older.