Kari posted:

. So basically debt write-offs played a role in two Administrations (Cheddi and Jagdeo) while both the Burnham and Hoyte regimes had to make painful reforms without such benefit - like currency devaluations and restrictive government spending (that affected importation).

Oh Lord.  Now you are going to be criticized for being a Burnham stooge. 

How dare you claim that the PPP weren't magicians who rescued Guyana, and turned it into a wealthy nation on par with Barbados and the Bahamas!

Kari posted:

Nehru posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

Kari posted:

I worked with Hoyte on foreign trade and investment and from what I saw and interacted with him he was one of the liberal minds at that level along with Winston Murray, Pat Matthews and Carl Greenidge.

Indeed, Desmond Hoyte was one of the liberal minds during those days.

As the Specialist Hydropower Engineer, I have had direct interactions with him when undertaking the hydroelectric power projects for Guyana and the meetings and discussions we have had were always cordial in manner.

Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Mussilini, Ian Smith and BW Botha were all very cordial.

Nehru, you're devaluing a discussion whose ideas and comments you're not familiar with. As much as Hoyte's late career was marked in opposition by "mo fiah slo fiah" you have to know that he was not all-in on the stuff that went down in he Burnham years. You're a little over the top with the Hitler/Mussolini thing....that's why people here don't take you seriously. While overall Hoyte is tainted with undemocratic associations, he was a man of decency and non-socialist views of the economy. Don't forget he had the shoot-to-kill of those beat-down-the-door bandits order when he took over and he privatized a lot of sectors that Burnham had under State control. 

Hoyte's later actions and activities, as noted in your comments, were questionable and unacceptable.

When he became president, had Hoyte pursued the approach taken by Cheddi Jagan and Forbes Burnham to form a united government, issues would be much different and for the better today.

Drugb posted:

 

You are giving Jagdeo too much credit. Did he also destroy the sugar industry in the rest of the Caribbean? The sugar industry was already on its way out, he only delayed the inevitable and followed bad investment ideas from Booker Tate. This laissse faire import strategy is called capitalism which we have in the US. Indeed you have Jagdeo stuck in your craw, maybe if you drink a glass of water it will flush him out. 

The other Caribbean countries saw the writing on the wall and either miniaturized their industries (Jamaica and Barbados) or shut them down entirely (Trinidad and St Kitts). 

Jagdeo screaming that he knows every thing, took the EU $, which were meant to transition Guyana into other economic sectors, and ploughed it into sugar.  He then tossed out Bookers,  and replaced them with square pegs, pretty much a Burnham move.

Bookers might well have had an ability to execute, as costs were lower.  But filled with Jagdeo's cronies costs at GySICKO soared, and there was rampant inefficiency and corruption.

So now we have GuySICKO, US$400 million in debt, despite getting US$500 million in bailouts.  In reality GuySICKO is ONE BILLION dollars in debt.  An economy of the size of Guyana CANNOT sustain this.

Daily we hear about Burnham he is DEAD, 31 years AGO!. Yet you guys get a heart attack when we talk about Jagdeo.  The man is ACTIVE in Guyana politics and so is every bit relevant to any discussion of Guyana.

And yes the laissez faire Jagdeo economy destroyed our manufacturing sector, with cheap imports.  This is what a super mall economy does. Other CAPITALIST nations encourage their manufacturing sectors to develop!

Demerara_Guy posted:

 

When he became president, had Hoyte pursued the approach taken by Cheddi Jagan and Forbes Burnham to form a united government, issues would be much different and for the better today.

Jagan and Burnham...two communists.  Jagdeo and Harmon...two thieves.  This is  what a united government would create.

I don't like it, and neither should you.

caribny posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

When he became president, had Hoyte pursued the approach taken by Cheddi Jagan and Forbes Burnham to form a united government, issues would be much different and for the better today.

Jagan and Burnham...two communists.  Jagdeo and Harmon...two thieves.  This is  what a united government would create.

I don't like it, and neither should you.

1. A merger of the PROGRESSIVE groups within the PPP and PNC, specifically with the foremost goal and interest on the development of Guyana, would be beneficial for the country.

2. Should such merger materialize, indeed, there will be a number of groups within both the PPP and PNC who will leave the respective parties.

3. Those who leave both parties would either become a group, be in separate groups, perhaps leave politics, etc..

Demerara_Guy posted:

 

1. A merger of the PROGRESSIVE groups within the PPP and PNC, specifically with the foremost goal and interest on the development of Guyana, would be beneficial for the country.

2..

And who are these "progressive people"? Jagdeo? Because he certainly doesn't seem interested in stepping down.

caribny posted:

Drugb posted:

 

You are giving Jagdeo too much credit. Did he also destroy the sugar industry in the rest of the Caribbean? The sugar industry was already on its way out, he only delayed the inevitable and followed bad investment ideas from Booker Tate. This laissse faire import strategy is called capitalism which we have in the US. Indeed you have Jagdeo stuck in your craw, maybe if you drink a glass of water it will flush him out. 

The other Caribbean countries saw the writing on the wall and either miniaturized their industries (Jamaica and Barbados) or shut them down entirely (Trinidad and St Kitts). 

Jagdeo screaming that he knows every thing, took the EU $, which were meant to transition Guyana into other economic sectors, and ploughed it into sugar.  He then tossed out Bookers,  and replaced them with square pegs, pretty much a Burnham move.

Bookers might well have had an ability to execute, as costs were lower.  But filled with Jagdeo's cronies costs at GySICKO soared, and there was rampant inefficiency and corruption.

So now we have GuySICKO, US$400 million in debt, despite getting US$500 million in bailouts.  In reality GuySICKO is ONE BILLION dollars in debt.  An economy of the size of Guyana CANNOT sustain this.

Daily we hear about Burnham he is DEAD, 31 years AGO!. Yet you guys get a heart attack when we talk about Jagdeo.  The man is ACTIVE in Guyana politics and so is every bit relevant to any discussion of Guyana.

And yes the laissez faire Jagdeo economy destroyed our manufacturing sector, with cheap imports.  This is what a super mall economy does. Other CAPITALIST nations encourage their manufacturing sectors to develop!

Only you talk about Burnham everyday, maybe you are his granddaughter.  Propping up a dead industry is an exercise in futility. Jagdeo did err , but we see today that Granger et al continue to do the same. 

Drugb posted:

 

Only you talk about Burnham everyday, . 

So why was Guyana the poorest English speaking Caribbean nation in 2014.  Worst educational performance.  Highest levels of child labor. Highest maternity and infant mortality rates.  Lowest life expectancy rate. Lowest internet connectivity. Lowest access to indoor plumbing. Lowest per capita income.

23 years of PPP rule.  Respond without saying anything about Burnham!

caribny posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

1. A merger of the PROGRESSIVE groups within the PPP and PNC, specifically with the foremost goal and interest on the development of Guyana, would be beneficial for the country.

2..

And who are these "progressive people"? Jagdeo? Because he certainly doesn't seem interested in stepping down.

Take the time to understand the issues and know them.

Demerara_Guy posted:

caribny posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

1. A merger of the PROGRESSIVE groups within the PPP and PNC, specifically with the foremost goal and interest on the development of Guyana, would be beneficial for the country.

2..

And who are these "progressive people"? Jagdeo? Because he certainly doesn't seem interested in stepping down.

Take the time to understand the issues and know them.

I see. Cannot answer a basic question.  Jagdeo thinks that he owns the PPP. He is NOT going any where.  So is he progressive, as divisive as he is?   Because until you address that issue you aren't going any where.

caribny posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

caribny posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

1. A merger of the PROGRESSIVE groups within the PPP and PNC, specifically with the foremost goal and interest on the development of Guyana, would be beneficial for the country.

2..

And who are these "progressive people"? Jagdeo? Because he certainly doesn't seem interested in stepping down.

Take the time to understand the issues and know them.

I see. Cannot answer a basic question.  Jagdeo thinks that he owns the PPP. He is NOT going any where.  So is he progressive, as divisive as he is?   Because until you address that issue you aren't going any where.

If Jagdeo ever met up with you he might bitch slap you. You are too obsessive with him. 

caribny posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

caribny posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

1. A merger of the PROGRESSIVE groups within the PPP and PNC, specifically with the foremost goal and interest on the development of Guyana, would be beneficial for the country.

2..

And who are these "progressive people"? Jagdeo? Because he certainly doesn't seem interested in stepping down.

Take the time to understand the issues and know them.

I see. Cannot answer a basic question.  Jagdeo thinks that he owns the PPP. He is NOT going any where.  So is he progressive, as divisive as he is?   Because until you address that issue you aren't going any where.

You asked the question ...

[[Quote]]

And who are these "progressive people"?

[[UnQuote]]

Soooooo, it appears that you do not know the issues.

caribny posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

caribny posted:

Demerara_Guy posted:

1. A merger of the PROGRESSIVE groups within the PPP and PNC, specifically with the foremost goal and interest on the development of Guyana, would be beneficial for the country.

2..

And who are these "progressive people"? Jagdeo? Because he certainly doesn't seem interested in stepping down.

Take the time to understand the issues and know them.

I see. Cannot answer a basic question.  Jagdeo thinks that he owns the PPP. He is NOT going any where.  So is he progressive, as divisive as he is?   Because until you address that issue you aren't going any where.

Really .. so in your mind and wild imagination, you have control over me?        

caribny posted:

Drugb posted:

 

Only you talk about Burnham everyday, . 

So why was Guyana the poorest English speaking Caribbean nation in 2014.  Worst educational performance.  Highest levels of child labor. Highest maternity and infant mortality rates.  Lowest life expectancy rate. Lowest internet connectivity. Lowest access to indoor plumbing. Lowest per capita income.

23 years of PPP rule.  Respond without saying anything about Burnham!

Lies, king liar. None of these allegations are true. Today they might be true under Jackass Granger. 

skeldon_man posted:

 

If Jagdeo ever met up with you he might bitch slap you. You are too obsessive with him. 

he will bitch slap himself for the huge moral decay that he caused to befall Guyana.  Roger Khan and the others. Para militias. Ministers getting killed by these same people.  All under Jagdeo's watch.

When you all PPP folks get rid of him then I will stop talking. Once he remains a force I will continue to talk about him.  I mean US$200 is all one needs to get a man killed.  This is the Phantoms which Jagdeo encouraged.

Drugb posted:

caribny posted:

Drugb posted:

 

Only you talk about Burnham everyday, . 

So why was Guyana the poorest English speaking Caribbean nation in 2014.  Worst educational performance.  Highest levels of child labor. Highest maternity and infant mortality rates.  Lowest life expectancy rate. Lowest internet connectivity. Lowest access to indoor plumbing. Lowest per capita income.

23 years of PPP rule.  Respond without saying anything about Burnham!

Lies, king liar. None of these allegations are true. Today they might be true under Jackass Granger. 

These are not allegations they are facts based on data that was available around 2014.  Only Haiti has a lower HDI then Guyana.

Here is druggie ignorance. If Guyana gets the same HDI score in 2016 as it got in 2014 it will blame Granger.  Druggie will scream that its Granger's fault that the PPP didn't perform.  Even though they had massive debt write-off and didn't have to curb expenditures the way that other governments had to.  Even though Guyana had access to debt at concessional terms that even Dominica was too "rich" to get.

caribny posted:

Drugb posted:

caribny posted:

Drugb posted:

 

Only you talk about Burnham everyday, . 

So why was Guyana the poorest English speaking Caribbean nation in 2014.  Worst educational performance.  Highest levels of child labor. Highest maternity and infant mortality rates.  Lowest life expectancy rate. Lowest internet connectivity. Lowest access to indoor plumbing. Lowest per capita income.

23 years of PPP rule.  Respond without saying anything about Burnham!

Lies, king liar. None of these allegations are true. Today they might be true under Jackass Granger. 

These are not allegations they are facts based on data that was available around 2014.  Only Haiti has a lower HDI then Guyana.

Here is druggie ignorance. If Guyana gets the same HDI score in 2016 as it got in 2014 it will blame Granger.  Druggie will scream that its Granger's fault that the PPP didn't perform.  Even though they had massive debt write-off and didn't have to curb expenditures the way that other governments had to.  Even though Guyana had access to debt at concessional terms that even Dominica was too "rich" to get.

King liar, the Guyana's economy was listed as the 2nd fastest growing in the Caribbean in 2014.

Guyana  fastest growing economy in Caribbean -Opposition cares more about power than development-President  

April 11, 2015

I  wonder how much of the 2014 GDP growth was due to the gold earnings - a good portion of which was the price deltas.

I wonder when we will grow up and look at the economy as something that is transformed and elevated rather than numbers due to a factor of price changes.

Let us get into the mindset that if the average skill level of the Guyanese worker were 75% of Trinidad's Guyana would have made some progress. Skill level means jobs more advanced than menial labor with no thinking involved. With an increased skill level (think education) you will read a book to your child instead of drinking daroo. With a better educated citizenry (and I'm not just talking literacy like reading and writing) life becomes less cheap and thus the wrong words don't mean a cutlass chop. Institutions become more meaningful and infrastructure is better protected. There is more respect all around. That........is economic progress. Measure those metrics from 2001 to 2015 and see whether Guyana made any progress. This Coalition looks clueless too as it engages in CARIBNY's famed abee-pan-tap-therefore-do-as-the-PPP.

Druggie you keep on showing what an idiot you are.  Now go back and look at the GDP PER CAPITA.  THAT is a measure of Guyana's poverty.  All the growth rate shows is that it grew faster, but it remains POOR!

Druggie economics isn't your forte, neither is the world of finance. Stick to what you know and that is calling Roger Khan a hero for "saving" Guyana, as you used to do when the PPP was in power.

Kari posted:

. This Coalition looks clueless too as it engages in CARIBNY's famed abee-pan-tap-therefore-do-as-the-PPP.

 

Now is Shamir Ally an incompetent BLACK man who is a square peg in a round hole?  Does this apply to Riyad Insanally?  Or to Bayney Karan in China?  Or Clarissa Riehl to Canada.  Incompetent blacks?

And where is the proof that the PPP was supposed to provide about this Indian eradication plan. We were told that Granger was even more ethnic exclusionary in his treatment of Indians than was Burnham.

There are 7 diplomatic positions which are important to Guyana.  USA, Canada, UK, EU, China, Venezuela and Brazil. THREE are Indians.

Now compare this with the PPP under Jagdeo?  How many Africans?

I find you to be quite cheeky, but as they say "I done peep your card". AFC Indians aren't running the show so now you suddenly care about meritocracy.

Drugb posted:

.

The slowest-growing economy? It was Barbados, with a projected growth of just 0.5 percent this year.

The report said it cut its regional growth forecast for Latin America and the Caribbean to 2.2 percent, down from its April estimate of 2.7 percent.

See below for the full list of projections for the Caribbean this year.

News

 

2015 Per capita income. Barbados $16,000 GDP per capita.  Tiny little St Kitts Nevis also $16,000.  Antigua $14,000. Suriname $9,000. Even impoverished Dominica and St Vincent, $7,000.    Guyana $4,000.

2014 Human Development Index ranking.  Barbados and Antigua were ranked 57 and 58. St Kitts Nevis was ranked 77.  Dominica 94 and St Vincent 97. Suriname 103. Guyana 124.

Access to indoor plumbing.  Barbados 98%.  St Kitts Nevis 92%. Antigua 85%. St Vincent 80%. Dominica 68%. Guyana and Suriname tied at 66% 

Belize, another large mainland nation has 80% of its population with access to indoor plumbing.

Druggie. I provide statistics.  You provide screams and then when you furnish statistics you provide the wrong ones. So Haiti also had an above average growth rate.  That should tell you something. The Barbadian economy can shrink by 20% and they will still be better off than Guyanese.

No wonder when one considers that 15,000 Guyanese live in Barbados, 15,000 in Antigua, 25,000 in Trinidad, and thousands more in islands like Grenada, St Lucia St Maarten, St Kitts Nevis, Anguilla and Tortola.

Now how many Islanders live in Guyana. Those working at the CARICOM Secretariat, a few more married to Guyanese, and some ageing Bajans and St Lucians who migrated to Guyana decades ago.

caribny posted: 

2015 Per capita income. Barbados $16,000 GDP per capita.  Tiny little St Kitts Nevis also $16,000.  Antigua $14,000. Suriname $9,000. Even impoverished Dominica and St Vincent, $7,000.    Guyana $4,000.

2014 Human Development Index ranking.  Barbados and Antigua were ranked 57 and 58. St Kitts Nevis was ranked 77.  Dominica 94 and St Vincent 97. Suriname 103. Guyana 124.

Access to indoor plumbing.  Barbados 98%.  St Kitts Nevis 92%. Antigua 85%. St Vincent 80%. Dominica 68%. Guyana and Suriname tied at 66% 

Belize, another large mainland nation has 80% of its population with access to indoor plumbing.

Druggie. I provide statistics.  You provide screams and then when you furnish statistics you provide the wrong ones. So Haiti also had an above average growth rate.  That should tell you something. The Barbadian economy can shrink by 20% and they will still be better off than Guyanese.

No wonder when one considers that 15,000 Guyanese live in Barbados, 15,000 in Antigua, 25,000 in Trinidad, and thousands more in islands like Grenada, St Lucia St Maarten, St Kitts Nevis, Anguilla and Tortola.

Now how many Islanders live in Guyana. Those working at the CARICOM Secretariat, a few more married to Guyanese, and some ageing Bajans and St Lucians who migrated to Guyana decades ago.

Blah blah blah.  The fact is that Guyana was improving under the PPP despite all your ranting and ravings. Now go get some more talking points from Granger on how he is fixing the ills of the country. 

Drugb posted:

.

---

Blah blah blah.  The fact is that Guyana was improving under the PPP despite all your ranting and ravings. Now go get some more talking points from Granger on how he is fixing the ills of the country. 

So did other countries.  Countries progress over time even Haiti.

So get it into your head.  Guyana remains LAST and 23 years of PPP rule did NOT change that/ WHY?  Why are we BEHIND St Vincent?

Drugb posted:

caribny posted: 

2015 Per capita income. Barbados $16,000 GDP per capita.  Tiny little St Kitts Nevis also $16,000.  Antigua $14,000. Suriname $9,000. Even impoverished Dominica and St Vincent, $7,000.    Guyana $4,000.

2014 Human Development Index ranking.  Barbados and Antigua were ranked 57 and 58. St Kitts Nevis was ranked 77.  Dominica 94 and St Vincent 97. Suriname 103. Guyana 124.

Access to indoor plumbing.  Barbados 98%.  St Kitts Nevis 92%. Antigua 85%. St Vincent 80%. Dominica 68%. Guyana and Suriname tied at 66% 

Belize, another large mainland nation has 80% of its population with access to indoor plumbing.

Druggie. I provide statistics.  You provide screams and then when you furnish statistics you provide the wrong ones. So Haiti also had an above average growth rate.  That should tell you something. The Barbadian economy can shrink by 20% and they will still be better off than Guyanese.

No wonder when one considers that 15,000 Guyanese live in Barbados, 15,000 in Antigua, 25,000 in Trinidad, and thousands more in islands like Grenada, St Lucia St Maarten, St Kitts Nevis, Anguilla and Tortola.

Now how many Islanders live in Guyana. Those working at the CARICOM Secretariat, a few more married to Guyanese, and some ageing Bajans and St Lucians who migrated to Guyana decades ago.

---

Blah blah blah.  The fact is that Guyana was improving under the PPP despite all your ranting and ravings. Now go get some more talking points from Granger on how he is fixing the ills of the country. 

That's some intelligent response. Now go back to to that unintelligent bubble you inhabit.

Interesting how Carib avoids comparing economic statistics from 1992 with those of today. He finds excitement in comparing economic statistics with our sister Caribbean states. He never spoke about the deep ditch the PNC put Guyana in and the many years it took for this country to recover.  

caribny posted:

Drugb posted:

.

---

Blah blah blah.  The fact is that Guyana was improving under the PPP despite all your ranting and ravings. Now go get some more talking points from Granger on how he is fixing the ills of the country. 

So did other countries.  Countries progress over time even Haiti.

So get it into your head.  Guyana remains LAST and 23 years of PPP rule did NOT change that/ WHY?  Why are we BEHIND St Vincent?

Guyana`s numbers are skewed by the large rural population which depends on subsistance, living off the land. The Amerindians are one example of people who by virtue of culture live a simple life in far flung areas.  The Islands have the tourist industry that props up earnings. Now ketch sense and come again.

People in the beautiful Caribbean consider themselves lucky to be living in a place that nature blessed. It's brings in people and people bring in money. It's that simple.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

Interesting how Carib avoids comparing economic statistics from 1992 with those of today. He finds excitement in comparing economic statistics with our sister Caribbean states. He never spoke about the deep ditch the PNC put Guyana in and the many years it took for this country to recover.  

BillyB, the narrative about the PNC destroying internal trade (think KSI and the party card) and taking on two sectors, sugar and bauxite, that would be doomed in a few short years is well established. There is also the observation that the PNC projects like MMA and lenient import tariffs from fellow CARICOM Trinidad helped the rice industry which is dominated by a few large producers (Kayman Sankar et al) but mostly have a lot of small farmers. The marketing and the corruption though did not help.

There is also the narrative that the PPP since taking office sought to transform the economy and had a lot of foreign investment dollars pour in (mostly from expats and remigrants) under a liberalized Cheddi. But that all came crashing, firstly under the instability (provoked by an enraged PNC) under Janet and then the floodgates opened under Jagdeo for the vave of narco violence, underground economy and subculture.

We've also had a little more than a year of AFC floatsam in a meandering flow.

So all Caribny is saying is to acknowledge that no numbers can show Guyana progressed under the PPP other than the short-lived Cheddi (no longer a socialist by then) regime.

He's showing a qualitative understanding of the numbers and you're just being ideological. Now you know why the nation cannot nudge itself forward. You're just like another abee-pan-tapper.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

Interesting how Carib avoids comparing economic statistics from 1992

When one looks at Guyana's relative position nothing has changed. We came LAST then and ARE STILL LAST!  Tens of thousands of economic refugees which flooded the Caribbean since 1992 are testimony to the fact that the PPP really has nothing tobrag about.

I will not even get into the debate that were the PPP in power their performance would have been EXACTLY LIKE Burnham as party paramountcy, ethnic exclusion, and communism were core approaches to BOTH.

Kari posted:

.

So all Caribny is saying is to acknowledge that no numbers can show Guyana progressed under the PPP other than the short-lived Cheddi (no longer a socialist by then) regime.

 

The three periods of sustainable growth were

1. 1964 to 1971 due to bauxite industry was expansion, sugar holding its own, and massive investment in public infrastructure like massive road building, rural electrification and water, and the MMA project. Maybe the UF held back some of Burnham's communist tendencies, which surfaced sooner after they were dumped.

2.  Hoyte introducing economic reforms which boosted private sector activity, foreign investment, and reduced the degree to which the gov't impaired economic activity.

3.  This rolled right into the third era with Cheddi, forced by Hoyte to accept a liberalized economy, also boosted the rice industry which was left in the doldrums by the PPP.  There was also massive public spending to repair the neglect to the infrastructure, this funded by dollars that previously had to be used for debt service.

Jagdeo is like Giuliani.  Just as 9/11 rescued the latter from being known as a divisive and angry man, universally hated by most NYers, gold prices created the myth among the PPP frauds that Jagdeo knows anything about economics. 

Just as the sugar price increases in the mid 70s gave Burnham the illusion that his policies were working when Guyana experienced a mini commodity fuel boom.  This led to him squandering this on failed state enterprises.  Jagdeo similarly benefitted from a gold price boom. He squandered money on GuySICKO and on corruption at levels that Guyana had NEVER seen before. 

What saved Guyana is that Jagdeo was NOT able to do to the entire economy that Burnham did to Guyana, as by then most of the economy was in private hands.  But when we see the sector that Jagdeo was most involved, sugar, we see DISASTER.  GuySICKO $400 million in debt, despite $500 million in bailouts.  And in fact this was beginning to impact as national debt began to increase.

Cheddi wasn't "forced". Look at the involvement of Asgar Ali and the Carter Center. IF Manley became a latter day liberal leader, why deny Cheddi the same when they both changed course on economics?

I'm glad you acknowledge that the 1974 - 76 years were marked by a commodities boom in prices that was fool's gold to Burnham that led to him buying two Brooklyn bridges - Bookers and Demba.