Will Saudi women break chains of male guardianship?

For three weeks now, the hashtag #StopEnslavingSaudiWomen has been active on social media. The newly established feminist association Saudi Women Against Marginalization, which took to Twitter in June, launched this hashtag. Meanwhile, the issue of ending male guardianship over women in Saudi Arabia remains highly controversial.

Saudi women are not just calling for the end of male guardianship in marriage contracts or the transfer of guardianship from one abusive husband or oppressive father to another better man who could be a brother or uncle, like it was for women a few years ago in some Saudi courts.

In fact, women are calling for dropping all forms of supervision and control from brothers, fathers or grandfathers as guardianship limits women’s freedom and willpower.

Saudi blogger and writer Hams Sonosi is one of the main advocates of this cause. On Aug. 11, she tweeted that the campaign to end male guardianship has achieved huge success on social media, although it has not led to a change of laws. She asked Saudi women to hold on to this legal and social demand.

Subsequently, the opposing hashtag #SaudiWomenProudofGuardianship appeared. Academic Amerah Saeidi is one of the main opponents to ending male guardianship. On July 30, she tweeted that the injustice of some guardians toward their proteges should be dealt with through legal solutions, not by dropping Sharia laws.

The nuclear male guardianship system is connected to the larger guardianship system of the ruler or king that is mentioned in the Saudi Constitution under Chapter 3 titled “Constituents of Saudi society.” This is where the problem lies. Article 9 of Chapter 3 states, “The family is the nucleus of Saudi society. Its members shall be brought up imbued with the Islamic Creed, which calls for obedience to God, His Messenger and those of the nation who are charged with authority; for the respect and enforcement of law and order; and for love of the motherland and taking pride in its glorious history.”

There seems to be a clear reference in the above article to the principle of loyalty and obedience to rulers or guardians, whether in the family, society or ruling institution — and those rulers or guardians are males. Saudi women’s obedience to their male guardians within their families is part of their obedience to the absolute guardian of the state who is the ruler or king, as per the Quranic verse An-Nisa:59: “O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.”

Religious institutions in Saudi Arabia have often resorted to this verse as a warning to anyone who opposes the will of the guardian authority, either through demonstrations or in public comments. The Council of Senior Scholars had issued a statement in this regard on March 7, 2011. The verse was used to arrest Saudi citizens who had participated in the protests in Jeddah, in western Saudi Arabia, against the financial corruption and poor infrastructure after floods swept through the city in January 2011.

Saudi women calling for an end to the social and legal male guardianship are also facing constraints from the Salafi religious institution. The latter helped the holders of absolute guardianship, i.e., Saudi kings, to rule and expand their authority since the time of the Diriyah agreement between politician Mohammad bin Saud and cleric Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab in 1744, who gave religious justifications for their military and political decisions. The Salafi institution believes that ending male guardianship violates religion. In this context, Sheikh Saud al-Shureem, a university professor and imam of the Great Mosque of Mecca, tweeted July 30 that demanding an end to male guardianship violates Sharia. Thousands of followers liked his tweet and supported it.

For his part, Abdullah al-Hamed, one of the key founders of the Saudi Civil and Political Rights Association, had tweeted on Nov. 30, 2012, that the people are their own guardians and the king is their representative, which means that the absolute guardianship of the king must be dropped. He also called for establishing a constitutional monarchy, whereby the people rule through their elected deputies. Due to his stance, Hamed was arrested on the grounds of defying the absolute guardian (the king) and sentenced to 11 years in prison in March 2013.

It is true that Saudi women were granted some rights in 2009, such as the right to occupy certain state positions, when late Saudi King Abdullah bin Abdul-Aziz appointed Norah al-Faiz as the deputy minister of education and decided in September 2011 that women should join the Shura Council. He also allowed women to choose the profession they want — such as accountants and vendors in shops selling food, perfumes, cosmetics and phones — without the approval of their guardian.

However, Saudi women still suffer many social violations within their families, mainly from their male guardians, whether their husbands, fathers or brothers. These violations include physical assault, preventing them from getting married so that the guardian can continue to take the women’s salary if she is employed, or taking over their inheritance in case of the father’s death. Women are also given a hard time when visiting governmental departments if they are not accompanied by a male figure. Other violations in the workplace include sexual harassment and extortion from their bosses.

To add to the hardships women in Saudi Arabia face, the Saudi General Directorate of Passports (Jawazat) announced July 26 that a Saudi woman cannot travel abroad without her husband’s permission, even if she is traveling with her father. Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world where Saudi women are not allowed to drive.

As per Article 44 of the Saudi Basic Law of Governance, under Chapter 6 titled “Authorities of the State,” the king shall be the point of reference for the judicial authority, the executive authority and the regulatory authority. Accordingly, the king alone can change women’s rights situations in the kingdom within weeks, despite expected objection from religious authorities in Saudi Arabia. The king usually takes his decisions based on the economic and political interest of the rule in the kingdom and abroad, without taking into consideration the stance of the Salafi religious institution. For instance, in June 2013, a royal decree was issued to set Saturday as an official day off to serve the kingdom’s economic interests, despite the disapproval of several members of the Council of Senior Scholars, such as Sheikh Saleh al-Fawzan who objected to this decision, as he considers Saturday to be a day off for Jews.

Another example showing that the king can take decisions single-handedly is the appointment of women to the Shura Council despite the objection of the Council of Senior Scholars. On Sept. 30, 2011, Sheikh Saleh al-Luhaidan denied any consultation with or approval from the council in appointing women to the Shura Council.

Regarding the future of Saudi women, a Human Rights Watch report published on July 16 stated, “As long as Saudi Arabia maintains the male guardianship system in some way, it will remain in breach of its rights commitments and will not be able to fulfill the economic Saudi Vision 2030.”

In response to this report, a female member of the Saudi Shura Council told Al-Monitor on condition of anonymity, “You will soon see women in all fields of work in Saudi Arabia. They will also be able to drive cars. Saudi women have faith in the rule of Prince Mohammed bin Salman, because his political ambition will help them reach their demands.”

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/puls...p.html#ixzz4I4MxtEnM

Bhai, the people gat them tradition and culture and they are proud of it. You dont have to follow them but no one is stopping people who wish to follow.

RiffRaff posted:

Will Saudi women break chains of male guardianship?

For three weeks now, the hashtag #StopEnslavingSaudiWomen has been active

Religious institutions in Saudi Arabia have often resorted to this verse as a warning to anyone who opposes the will of the guardian authority, either through demonstrations or in public comments. The Council of Senior Scholars had issued a statement in this regard on March 7, 2011. The verse was used to arrest Saudi citizens who had participated in the protests in Jeddah, in western Saudi Arabia, against the financial corruption and poor infrastructure after floods swept through the city in January 2011.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/puls...p.html#ixzz4I4MxtEnM

Now will Kari, Ksaz, and Chief cease screaming that there aren't those, other than ISIS, who are peddling their interpretation of the Koran to punish those Muslims who want to live in the 21st century?

I suggest that these gentlemen all watch Fareed Zakaria's documentary "Why they hate us".  It shows that this Saudi thinking forms the basis of the various lunatic Jihadist activities and that there is a deliberate plot by these entities to target vulnerable people.

It will be of benefit to Islam if a movement to counter that of the Wahhabis was developed to remove the damage that this group has done to the image of Islam.

Nehru posted:

Bhai, the people gat them tradition and culture and they are proud of it. You dont have to follow them but no one is stopping people who wish to follow.

Actually, lots of women in Saudi Arabia don't like this tradition...and are not proud of it

Tradition was one of the excuses used for slavery....not all traditions are good

The men have been brainwashing women but lots of the women are getting smart

RiffRaff posted:

Nehru posted:

Bhai, the people gat them tradition and culture and they are proud of it. You dont have to follow them but no one is stopping people who wish to follow.

Actually, lots of women in Saudi Arabia don't like this tradition...and are not proud of it

Tradition was one of the excuses used for slavery....not all traditions are good

The men have been brainwashing women but lots of the women are getting smart

The Saudis claim that it is Allah, and not mere tradition, that is responsible for their treatment of women.

They are using this verse...

“O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you."

ANyone (men) can put himself in authority (even a dictator), and claim this....

This is an example of how people can bend the Quran to suit their needs...

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end. - 4:59

Now here is the entire verse, it tells a different story. Obedience is not a blank check. The very first word that Muhammad heard is "READ". I am beginning to think that Muslims don't read as Muhammad was commanded to do. If they did, they would not fall victims to these wicked people. The leaders in the Middle don't represent Islam and that verse proves it.

RiffRaff posted:

They are using this verse...

“O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you."

ANyone (men) can put himself in authority (even a dictator), and claim this....

This is an example of how people can bend the Quran to suit their needs...

Quote all the Koran as you wish but powerful forces in Saudi Arabia are using it as they wish, and the rest of you are too scared of them to do anything.

So you pretend as if the problem is just ISIS.

caribny posted:

RiffRaff posted:

They are using this verse...

“O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you."

ANyone (men) can put himself in authority (even a dictator), and claim this....

This is an example of how people can bend the Quran to suit their needs...

Quote all the Koran as you wish but powerful forces in Saudi Arabia are using it as they wish, and the rest of you are too scared of them to do anything.

So you pretend as if the problem is just ISIS.

Please, The US is propping up the Saudis...don't blame other Muslims for their nonsense

RiffRaff posted:

 

Please, The US is propping up the Saudis...don't blame other Muslims for their nonsense

And since when does that prevent Muslims for speaking out against Saudi Arabia?  You all have lots to say about Israel, which receives even MORE USA support, and is a good deal more deadly against those that they perceive to be a threat.

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....guess you view violence as speaking out, because you only pay attention when there are bombings

How come when the other religions do similiar things the Anti Muslim crew looks the other way.

DO not  confuse customs and religion

RiffRaff posted:

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....guess you view violence as speaking out, because you only pay attention when there are bombings

If they are so against them, why the huge crowds each year when they do their annual pilgrimage and crush each other to death?

They should be staying away from those devils, yes?

RiffRaff posted:

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....

Yet you go to Mecca on your annual pilgrim and use Arabic in your mosques.  Your religion is built around Arab culture. 

You all can do better.  But as Fareed Zakaria reminds you all that the vast majority of people killed by jihadis are other Muslims, so Muslims have a more vested interest in shutting down institutions which peddle 13th C hatred of the 21st C than any one else.

Pointblank posted:

How come when the other religions

Please name priests and others who advocate that women should remain chattel, that honor killing is appropriate punishment for rape or premarital sex, or that killing in a Holy War in 2016 is to be honored.

There are Muslim clerics who advocate this, and yet they continue to be Muslim clerics, running madrasahs in Pakistan and other places.

cain posted:

RiffRaff posted:

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....guess you view violence as speaking out, because you only pay attention when there are bombings

If they are so against them, why the huge crowds each year when they do their annual pilgrimage and crush each other to death?

They should be staying away from those devils, yes?

Don't forget when they toss stones at each other with deaths recorded almost every year.  Now the Filipinos might whip themselves to injury but its only themselves who they harm. 

caribny posted:

cain posted:

RiffRaff posted:

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....guess you view violence as speaking out, because you only pay attention when there are bombings

If they are so against them, why the huge crowds each year when they do their annual pilgrimage and crush each other to death?

They should be staying away from those devils, yes?

Don't forget when they toss stones at each other with deaths recorded almost every year.  Now the Filipinos might whip themselves to injury but its only themselves who they harm. 

Is this a display of ignorance or willful mischief? Muslins don't toss stones at each other during their hajj ritual.

cain posted:

RiffRaff posted:

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....guess you view violence as speaking out, because you only pay attention when there are bombings

If they are so against them, why the huge crowds each year when they do their annual pilgrimage and crush each other to death?

They should be staying away from those devils, yes?

Muslims have been observing the pilgrimage even when Saudi Arabia was a piss poor country. They know how to keep each separate. They wouldn't stop observing the pilgrimage just because Saudi Arabia is wicked and they shouldn't.

cain posted:

RiffRaff posted:

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....guess you view violence as speaking out, because you only pay attention when there are bombings

If they are so against them, why the huge crowds each year when they do their annual pilgrimage and crush each other to death?

They should be staying away from those devils, yes?

Banna, Pilgrimage is not done for the benefit of the Saudis....

RiffRaff posted:

caribny posted:

RiffRaff posted:

They are using this verse...

“O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you."

ANyone (men) can put himself in authority (even a dictator), and claim this....

This is an example of how people can bend the Quran to suit their needs...

Quote all the Koran as you wish but powerful forces in Saudi Arabia are using it as they wish, and the rest of you are too scared of them to do anything.

So you pretend as if the problem is just ISIS.

Please, The US is propping up the Saudis...don't blame other Muslims for their nonsense

Yeah yuh right, blame the US for this nonsense.

caribny posted:

RiffRaff posted:

Will Saudi women break chains of male guardianship?

For three weeks now, the hashtag #StopEnslavingSaudiWomen has been active

Religious institutions in Saudi Arabia have often resorted to this verse as a warning to anyone who opposes the will of the guardian authority, either through demonstrations or in public comments. The Council of Senior Scholars had issued a statement in this regard on March 7, 2011. The verse was used to arrest Saudi citizens who had participated in the protests in Jeddah, in western Saudi Arabia, against the financial corruption and poor infrastructure after floods swept through the city in January 2011.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/puls...p.html#ixzz4I4MxtEnM

Now will Kari, Ksaz, and Chief cease screaming that there aren't those, other than ISIS, who are peddling their interpretation of the Koran to punish those Muslims who want to live in the 21st century?

I suggest that these gentlemen all watch Fareed Zakaria's documentary "Why they hate us".  It shows that this Saudi thinking forms the basis of the various lunatic Jihadist activities and that there is a deliberate plot by these entities to target vulnerable people.

It will be of benefit to Islam if a movement to counter that of the Wahhabis was developed to remove the damage that this group has done to the image of Islam.

I think Guyanese who are muslims should accept the things written in the Book assembled by the Arabs, the koran. By doubting and denying what is written does not mean the written words are not evidenced. As Guyanese, they would have excellent reasoning and know what to adhere to from the koran. The jihadist express their interpretations in a hostile manner. 

RiffRaff posted:

cain posted:

RiffRaff posted:

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....guess you view violence as speaking out, because you only pay attention when there are bombings

If they are so against them, why the huge crowds each year when they do their annual pilgrimage and crush each other to death?

They should be staying away from those devils, yes?

Banna, Pilgrimage is not done for the benefit of the Saudis....

If I along with my family visited someone's home to pray knowing full well they backed thieves,murderers etc, I wouldn't be heading there to do my praying.

ksazma posted:

. They wouldn't stop observing the pilgrimage just because Saudi Arabia is wicked and they shouldn't.

Do you use Arabic script? Are the prayers in your Mosque in Arabic?

I assume that the answer is always no and Arabic is never used.   That the languages used is always that of the local population, English in Guyana and the USA.

After all Islam has nothing to do with the Arab world.

cain posted:

RiffRaff posted:

cain posted:

RiffRaff posted:

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....guess you view violence as speaking out, because you only pay attention when there are bombings

If they are so against them, why the huge crowds each year when they do their annual pilgrimage and crush each other to death?

They should be staying away from those devils, yes?

Banna, Pilgrimage is not done for the benefit of the Saudis....

If I along with my family visited someone's home to pray knowing full well they backed thieves,murderers etc, I wouldn't be heading there to do my praying.

WHich Govt in the world don't back thieves or murderers?

caribny posted:

ksazma posted:

. They wouldn't stop observing the pilgrimage just because Saudi Arabia is wicked and they shouldn't.

Do you use Arabic script? Are the prayers in your Mosque in Arabic?

I assume that the answer is always no and Arabic is never used.   That the languages used is always that of the local population, English in Guyana and the USA.

After all Islam has nothing to do with the Arab world.

The Arabic Qur'an is not the property of the current Saudi government. It is the property of any Muslim who wishes to own it. No Muslim is going to replace the Arabic Qur'an with a translated version of it. Islam has everything to do with the Arabic Qur'an but not necessarily the Arab world.

ksazma posted:

. Islam has everything to do with the Arabic Qur'an but not necessarily the Arab world.

If the Koran is in only Arabic no wonder so many, who aren't fluent in Arabic (the version that the Koran is written in), can be so easily brainwashed by those who exploit their ignorance of it.  No wonder so many don't understand it.  They don't because they don't speak or understand Arabic, so they learn by rote and cannot intelligently discuss it.

So given that the Koran is in Arabic, and that apparently its sacriledge to translate it into languages spoken by Muslims, most of whom aren't Arabs, why the surprise that aspects of Arab tribal is promoted as TRUE Islam? Because by insisting that the Koran and Islam be conducted in Arab makes it a de facto Arab religion, therefore making it easy for Saudi elements to hijack the religion for their own purposes, and to punish those Muslims who don't adhere to their dogma.

The Koran should be accessible to Muslims in the language that they have competency so that they can understand it and engage in intelligent debate about what it means.  Now it is like Bollywood songs belted out by Indo Caribbean people who don't know Hindi and so are singing lyrics by rote..

RiffRaff posted:

cain posted:

RiffRaff posted:

cain posted:

RiffRaff posted:

If you were listening, you would hear Muslims speak out about Saudis.....guess you view violence as speaking out, because you only pay attention when there are bombings

If they are so against them, why the huge crowds each year when they do their annual pilgrimage and crush each other to death?

They should be staying away from those devils, yes?

Banna, Pilgrimage is not done for the benefit of the Saudis....

If I along with my family visited someone's home to pray knowing full well they backed thieves,murderers etc, I wouldn't be heading there to do my praying.

WHich Govt in the world don't back thieves or murderers?

Ah sittin here tinkin how fo cuus yo rass without gettin ban. Give me a word I could use nuh?

caribny posted:

ksazma posted:

. Islam has everything to do with the Arabic Qur'an but not necessarily the Arab world.

If the Koran is in only Arabic no wonder so many, who aren't fluent in Arabic (the version that the Koran is written in), can be so easily brainwashed by those who exploit their ignorance of it.  No wonder so many don't understand it.  They don't because they don't speak or understand Arabic, so they learn by rote and cannot intelligently discuss it.

So given that the Koran is in Arabic, and that apparently its sacriledge to translate it into languages spoken by Muslims, most of whom aren't Arabs, why the surprise that aspects of Arab tribal is promoted as TRUE Islam? Because by insisting that the Koran and Islam be conducted in Arab makes it a de facto Arab religion, therefore making it easy for Saudi elements to hijack the religion for their own purposes, and to punish those Muslims who don't adhere to their dogma.

The Koran should be accessible to Muslims in the language that they have competency so that they can understand it and engage in intelligent debate about what it means.  Now it is like Bollywood songs belted out by Indo Caribbean people who don't know Hindi and so are singing lyrics by rote..

Unfortunately for you here, your argument lacks foundation. The Arabic Qur'an is to Muslims what Christ is to Christians. Try removing Christ from Christians and see what you have. Secondly, the Qur'an has been adequately translated into many different languages where it's meaning is accessible to virtually anyone who wishes to know what it means. Thirdly, it is those familiar with Arabic who are bastardizing it while the vast majority of the world's Muslim population is living its meaning every day. I am afraid your lack of knowledge of what inspires most Muslins is vastly wanting. 

Btw  Carib, if you wish to know how Muslims engage with Christians in intelligent debate check out YouTube. There are many debates between Muslims and Christians about Islam, Christianity, the Bible and Qur'an, Jesus and Muhammad to list a few. Let your conscience be your guide when you view them.