Keffer posted:

kp posted:

Time and time again you guys stray off topic. These refugees are smartly guided to which country they can build a future. In Europe, they want to go to Germany, in North America they would like to come to USA. Why is it that Saudi Arabia refuses to accept any refugees??? Beggers are not choosers.

Prashad posted:

Them Turks don't want to hear these riff raff showing up and asking them for lady liberty.

That is totally untrue; have you been to Turkey ? The Turks have been bearing more than their fair share of the burden and Erdogan ought to be commended. I suggest you read and view news from outside of the USA for a while .... if you would like to have a decent idea of what is actually taking place.  

The Turkish man on the street want them out of their country. I had lunch with a bunch of Turks recently. Not one of them wanted these people to stay

In fact they were upset at the benefits they are getting from the Turkish state.

Prashad posted:

Keffer posted:

kp posted:

Time and time again you guys stray off topic. These refugees are smartly guided to which country they can build a future. In Europe, they want to go to Germany, in North America they would like to come to USA. Why is it that Saudi Arabia refuses to accept any refugees??? Beggers are not choosers.

Prashad posted:

Them Turks don't want to hear these riff raff showing up and asking them for lady liberty.

That is totally untrue; have you been to Turkey ? The Turks have been bearing more than their fair share of the burden and Erdogan ought to be commended. I suggest you read and view news from outside of the USA for a while .... if you would like to have a decent idea of what is actually taking place.  

The Turkish man on the street want them out of their country. I had lunch with a bunch of Turks recently. Not one of them wanted these people to stay

In fact they were upset at the benefits they are getting from the Turkish state.

 

Out of interest, where were you having lunch with these Turks? It wasn't on their own home soil. And that is the double standards these Turks have. They want freedom to go and work in any country of their own choice. But they don't want anyone other than Turks to live in their country.

Abu Jihad posted:

.

People risk death to get to a safe place.  Whats your obsession with Saudi, how are they different from what the people are running from.  

Because that proves that to these MUSLIM refugees a safe place isn't in another Muslim country.

Saudi Arabia anoints itself as the center of the Muslim world, and has "Bedouinized" Islam, this being the root cause of Jihadi violence.

Mr.T posted:

 

. And that is the double standards these Turks have. They want freedom to go and work in any country of their own choice. But they don't want anyone other than Turks to live in their country.

Guyanese poured into Barbados, and heaped scorn on Bajans, when they wailed "no more Guyanese or we gun sink!".

Guyanese see Brazilians pouring in, and want to know what are they doing in Guyana.

Moral is that Turks are no different from others!  In fact some of the most xenophobic peoples tend to be from nations with a high degree of emigration.

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

.

People risk death to get to a safe place.  Whats your obsession with Saudi, how are they different from what the people are running from.  

Because that proves that to these MUSLIM refugees a safe place isn't in another Muslim country.

Saudi Arabia anoints itself as the center of the Muslim world, and has "Bedouinized" Islam, this being the root cause of Jihadi violence.

What does has "Bedouinized" Islam mean or entail ?

Keffer posted:

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

.

People risk death to get to a safe place.  Whats your obsession with Saudi, how are they different from what the people are running from.  

Because that proves that to these MUSLIM refugees a safe place isn't in another Muslim country.

Saudi Arabia anoints itself as the center of the Muslim world, and has "Bedouinized" Islam, this being the root cause of Jihadi violence.

What does has "Bedouinized" Islam mean or entail ?

That Wahabi nonsense, and the complete marginalization of females. That was NOT a feature of Egyptian life 40 years ago.

caribny posted:

Keffer posted:

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

.

People risk death to get to a safe place.  Whats your obsession with Saudi, how are they different from what the people are running from.  

Because that proves that to these MUSLIM refugees a safe place isn't in another Muslim country.

Saudi Arabia anoints itself as the center of the Muslim world, and has "Bedouinized" Islam, this being the root cause of Jihadi violence.

What does has "Bedouinized" Islam mean or entail ?

That Wahabi nonsense, and the complete marginalization of females. That was NOT a feature of Egyptian life 40 years ago.

Dude your heart may be in the right place, but your hate is holding you back.  The Syrians are  in the current situation because they wanted freedom and democracy, not to become medieval fascists.

Do you remember the Arab Spring, it was to get away from the nonsense you pointed out so what is your hate about?

The story of Egypt, its now worse than ever because of the betrayal of the arab spring and Saudi interference (must be blamed on the west also), not the other way around (religion).

caribny posted:

Keffer posted:

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

.

People risk death to get to a safe place.  Whats your obsession with Saudi, how are they different from what the people are running from.  

Because that proves that to these MUSLIM refugees a safe place isn't in another Muslim country.

Saudi Arabia anoints itself as the center of the Muslim world, and has "Bedouinized" Islam, this being the root cause of Jihadi violence.

What does has "Bedouinized" Islam mean or entail ?

That Wahabi nonsense, and the complete marginalization of females. That was NOT a feature of Egyptian life 40 years ago.

 Wahabi = Bedouin, eh ? What brilliance; you are priceless !

Abu Jihad posted:

 

Dude your heart may be in the right place, but your hate is holding you back.  The Syrians are  in the current situation because they wanted freedom and democracy, not to become medieval fascists.

Do you remember the Arab Spring, it was to get away from the nonsense you pointed out so what is your hate about?

The story of Egypt, its now worse than ever because of the betrayal of the arab spring and Saudi interference (must be blamed on the west also), not the other way around (religion).

Your response shows the problem that Muslims have.  Denying that your religion has a problem, while fanatics increase define its public image.

Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans are fleeing to Europe, even though Europe doesn't want them, and is becoming increasingly hostile towards them.

Now given this, why do they want to flee to the West, and not to a Muslim nation?

Democracy is a western concept. As we can see its not one which thrives in Muslim lands.

Keffer posted:

.

 Wahabi = Bedouin, eh ? What brilliance; you are priceless !

Why don't you pick up a history book and learn that 100 years ago the Saudis were Bedouin, and have indeed maintain many of their austere beliefs.

The result being that we have a Pakistani female, who was almost killed because she wanted an education.  This in a nation which has had a female head of state.

caribny posted:

Keffer posted:

.

 Wahabi = Bedouin, eh ? What brilliance; you are priceless !

Why don't you pick up a history book and learn that 100 years ago the Saudis were Bedouin, and have indeed maintain many of their austere beliefs.

The result being that we have a Pakistani female, who was almost killed because she wanted an education.  This in a nation which has had a female head of state.

The Arab nation is made up of a number of 'tribes', Bedouins (a nomadic group, being only one of several. That has absolutely nothing to do with their religious school of thought so your attempt to relate one to the other is nothing but sheer stupidity. It is akin to saying Christianity is a British religion. The Wahabis are of a specific school of religious thought so your attempt to link the two is like saying mangoes and pineapples, by virtue of both coming from a specific geographic are the same. Do some reading, nah man !! 

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

 

Dude your heart may be in the right place, but your hate is holding you back.  The Syrians are  in the current situation because they wanted freedom and democracy, not to become medieval fascists.

Do you remember the Arab Spring, it was to get away from the nonsense you pointed out so what is your hate about?

The story of Egypt, its now worse than ever because of the betrayal of the arab spring and Saudi interference (must be blamed on the west also), not the other way around (religion).

Your response shows the problem that Muslims have.  Denying that your religion has a problem, while fanatics increase define its public image.

Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans are fleeing to Europe, even though Europe doesn't want them, and is becoming increasingly hostile towards them.

Now given this, why do they want to flee to the West, and not to a Muslim nation?

Democracy is a western concept. As we can see its not one which thrives in Muslim lands.

Africans are also flocking to Europe, what's the deal there?

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

 

Dude your heart may be in the right place, but your hate is holding you back.  The Syrians are  in the current situation because they wanted freedom and democracy, not to become medieval fascists.

Do you remember the Arab Spring, it was to get away from the nonsense you pointed out so what is your hate about?

The story of Egypt, its now worse than ever because of the betrayal of the arab spring and Saudi interference (must be blamed on the west also), not the other way around (religion).

Your response shows the problem that Muslims have.  Denying that your religion has a problem, while fanatics increase define its public image.

Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans are fleeing to Europe, even though Europe doesn't want them, and is becoming increasingly hostile towards them.

Now given this, why do they want to flee to the West, and not to a Muslim nation?

Democracy is a western concept. As we can see its not one which thrives in Muslim lands.

I disagree with both Carib and Abu here.

Firstly, I don't think that Islam has a problem but I do think that Muslims have many problems which the religion gets blamed for. The sooner Muslims learn to live in the broader society, the sooner they are their religion begin to lose their current image.

Secondly, I disagree with Abu regarding the cause of the current situation in many parts of the Middle East. It is not because they wanted democracy and freedom but because others refused to have them seek it. Had the people there been smarter, they could have learned that it is better to have a piece of the pie rather than destroy the whole pie fighting for all of it. They could have said, "watch how the Americans do it. Let us try to get together and try to do the same for all of us. And if we can't do it alone, let us ask those who know for help". Instead, a conflict had to occur and today many parts of the area is in shambles.

Lastly, unfortunately Saudi is acting more like an overlord rather than the country of Islam's origin. Today, Muslims all over the world dress, talk and act like the Saudis. There can be no positive in that indoctrination because everyone is surrendering their individual identity. Worse yet, to a country that has a horrible record of representing Islam.

Don't give up your religion but the way we act today is giving undue allegiance to the Saudis.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

 

Dude your heart may be in the right place, but your hate is holding you back.  The Syrians are  in the current situation because they wanted freedom and democracy, not to become medieval fascists.

Do you remember the Arab Spring, it was to get away from the nonsense you pointed out so what is your hate about?

The story of Egypt, its now worse than ever because of the betrayal of the arab spring and Saudi interference (must be blamed on the west also), not the other way around (religion).

Your response shows the problem that Muslims have.  Denying that your religion has a problem, while fanatics increase define its public image.

Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans are fleeing to Europe, even though Europe doesn't want them, and is becoming increasingly hostile towards them.

Now given this, why do they want to flee to the West, and not to a Muslim nation?

Democracy is a western concept. As we can see its not one which thrives in Muslim lands.

I disagree with both Carib and Abu here.

Firstly, I don't think that Islam has a problem but I do think that Muslims have many problems which the religion gets blamed for. The sooner Muslims learn to live in the broader society, the sooner they are their religion begin to lose their current image.

Secondly, I disagree with Abu regarding the cause of the current situation in many parts of the Middle East. It is not because they wanted democracy and freedom but because others refused to have them seek it. Had the people there been smarter, they could have learned that it is better to have a piece of the pie rather than destroy the whole pie fighting for all of it. They could have said, "watch how the Americans do it. Let us try to get together and try to do the same for all of us. And if we can't do it alone, let us ask those who know for help". Instead, a conflict had to occur and today many parts of the area is in shambles.

Lastly, unfortunately Saudi is acting more like an overlord rather than the country of Islam's origin. Today, Muslims all over the world dress, talk and act like the Saudis. There can be no positive in that indoctrination because everyone is surrendering their individual identity. Worse yet, to a country that has a horrible record of representing Islam.

Don't give up your religion but the way we act today is giving undue allegiance to the Saudis.

The Syrians were used as pawns and your assertion is in hindsight.  When the west praised the Arab spring, the Syrians responded by peaceful protest, which was met with extreme brutality from Assad.  Can't blame the masses for protesting peacefully.  

Now, blaming religion or Muslims for this outcome is just silly.

i do agree with your other points though.  

Keffer posted:

.. The Wahabis are of a specific school of religious thought.

Yes.  One that is destroying Islam.

Now go ahead and explain away "honor" killings of females.  Civilized people don't behave that way.

Abu Jihad posted:

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

 

Dude your heart may be in the right place, but your hate is holding you back.  The Syrians are  in the current situation because they wanted freedom and democracy, not to become medieval fascists.

Do you remember the Arab Spring, it was to get away from the nonsense you pointed out so what is your hate about?

The story of Egypt, its now worse than ever because of the betrayal of the arab spring and Saudi interference (must be blamed on the west also), not the other way around (religion).

Your response shows the problem that Muslims have.  Denying that your religion has a problem, while fanatics increase define its public image.

Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans are fleeing to Europe, even though Europe doesn't want them, and is becoming increasingly hostile towards them.

Now given this, why do they want to flee to the West, and not to a Muslim nation?

Democracy is a western concept. As we can see its not one which thrives in Muslim lands.

Africans are also flocking to Europe, what's the deal there?

Africans are honest enough to admit that they are fleeing the horrors of their nations.  

You ought to admit that so are Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans, and they don't think that neighboring Muslim nations are much better,

Abu Jihad posted:

.

The Syrians were used as pawns and your assertion is in hindsight.  When the west praised the Arab spring, the Syrians responded by peaceful protest, which was met with extreme brutality from Assad.  Can't blame the masses for protesting peacefully.  

Now, blaming religion or Muslims for this outcome is just silly.

i do agree with your other points though.  

The Arab Spring was about people trying to catch with the rest of the world, instead of having to chose between brutal secular military regimes, or brutal theocracies.

Assad's reaction to peaceful protests indicates why the Arab Spring was needed

You behave as if it was poison.

BTW of what relevance is the Arab Spring to the problems of Islam.  Why not focus on what certain Saudi interests are doing to radicalize the religion.

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

.

The Syrians were used as pawns and your assertion is in hindsight.  When the west praised the Arab spring, the Syrians responded by peaceful protest, which was met with extreme brutality from Assad.  Can't blame the masses for protesting peacefully.  

Now, blaming religion or Muslims for this outcome is just silly.

i do agree with your other points though.  

The Arab Spring was about people trying to catch with the rest of the world, instead of having to chose between brutal secular military regimes, or brutal theocracies.

Assad's reaction to peaceful protests indicates why the Arab Spring was needed

You behave as if it was poison.

BTW of what relevance is the Arab Spring to the problems of Islam.  Why not focus on what certain Saudi interests are doing to radicalize the religion.

This is obviously above your head.

The current refugee (Syrians) crisis is a result of the Arab spring not Islam.  

You are the one equating the issue with Islam.  Explain

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

 

Dude your heart may be in the right place, but your hate is holding you back.  The Syrians are  in the current situation because they wanted freedom and democracy, not to become medieval fascists.

Do you remember the Arab Spring, it was to get away from the nonsense you pointed out so what is your hate about?

The story of Egypt, its now worse than ever because of the betrayal of the arab spring and Saudi interference (must be blamed on the west also), not the other way around (religion).

Your response shows the problem that Muslims have.  Denying that your religion has a problem, while fanatics increase define its public image.

Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans are fleeing to Europe, even though Europe doesn't want them, and is becoming increasingly hostile towards them.

Now given this, why do they want to flee to the West, and not to a Muslim nation?

Democracy is a western concept. As we can see its not one which thrives in Muslim lands.

Africans are also flocking to Europe, what's the deal there?

Africans are honest enough to admit that they are fleeing the horrors of their nations.  

You ought to admit that so are Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans, and they don't think that neighboring Muslim nations are much better,

Go take your Prozac, it's the exact same issue for all involved.  I never said that one case is different from the other.

Its the racist demon in you that is equating it differently.

caribny posted:

Keffer posted:

.. The Wahabis are of a specific school of religious thought.

Yes.  One that is destroying Islam.

Now go ahead and explain away "honor" killings of females.  Civilized people don't behave that way.

Honor killing dates back to ancient Roman times ... many centuries prior to the advent of Islam. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam; if you are suggesting otherwise, please quote the reference from Qur'an. 

Abu Jihad posted:

caribny posted:

..

BTW of what relevance is the Arab Spring to the problems of Islam.  Why not focus on what certain Saudi interests are doing to radicalize the religion.

This is obviously above your head.

The current refugee (Syrians) crisis is a result of the Arab spring not Islam.  

.

Which was exactly my point.  Of what relevance is the Arab Spring?

The point is that Syrians should be fleeing to other Muslim lands, but aren't, when they have a choice.  Europe doesn't want them, or the Iraqis and Afghans.  The refugees are disappointed, and some even outraged.

Why will Muslims want to flee to a continent which has become more and more paranoid about their presence if other Muslim lands offer better refuge?

And Africans are saying upfront. They don't want to stay in Africa for all the obvious reasons, so why are you introducing this. It just furthers the point that Muslims prefer Europe because they see other Muslim lands as hell holes.

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

caribny posted:

..

BTW of what relevance is the Arab Spring to the problems of Islam.  Why not focus on what certain Saudi interests are doing to radicalize the religion.

This is obviously above your head.

The current refugee (Syrians) crisis is a result of the Arab spring not Islam.  

.

Which was exactly my point.  Of what relevance is the Arab Spring?

The point is that Syrians should be fleeing to other Muslim lands, but aren't, when they have a choice.  Europe doesn't want them, or the Iraqis and Afghans.  The refugees are disappointed, and some even outraged.

Why will Muslims want to flee to a continent which has become more and more paranoid about their presence if other Muslim lands offer better refuge?

And Africans are saying upfront. They don't want to stay in Africa for all the obvious reasons, so why are you introducing this. It just furthers the point that Muslims prefer Europe because they see other Muslim lands as hell holes.

I am not sure what is your argument is about, but those flocking to Europe are displaced refugees that are looking for a safe place to seek refuge.  The  majority of the refugees are in Muslim lands (more than 90%).  

Yes, I would probably take Europe over Egypt due to the sheer brutality of the Anglo-Zionist regime that was imposed upon them.  

Now, there are also millions sitting in refugee camps (in Muslim countries), waiting to go back to their previous lives that was brutally disrupted, and have no inclination to migrate any further.  This was one thing that hinders the Canadian government in reaching its goal to take in 25,000 refugees in 12 weeks.  The people did not want to leave because they were hoping to return to their homes.

The Saudi monarchy is not now embarked on a brutal military campaign in Yemen, committing unspeakable crimes against humanity.  Guess, who is proving the arms and logistic support?

The brutality of these governments is the Gasoline and Wahabism is the match to start the fire.

Abu Jihad posted:

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

caribny posted:

..

BTW of what relevance is the Arab Spring to the problems of Islam.  Why not focus on what certain Saudi interests are doing to radicalize the religion.

This is obviously above your head.

The current refugee (Syrians) crisis is a result of the Arab spring not Islam.  

.

Which was exactly my point.  Of what relevance is the Arab Spring?

The point is that Syrians should be fleeing to other Muslim lands, but aren't, when they have a choice.  Europe doesn't want them, or the Iraqis and Afghans.  The refugees are disappointed, and some even outraged.

Why will Muslims want to flee to a continent which has become more and more paranoid about their presence if other Muslim lands offer better refuge?

And Africans are saying upfront. They don't want to stay in Africa for all the obvious reasons, so why are you introducing this. It just furthers the point that Muslims prefer Europe because they see other Muslim lands as hell holes.

I am not sure what is your argument is about, but those flocking to Europe are displaced refugees that are looking for a safe place to seek refuge.  The  majority of the refugees are in Muslim lands (more than 90%).  

Yes, I would probably take Europe over Egypt due to the sheer brutality of the Anglo-Zionist regime that was imposed upon them.  

Now, there are also millions sitting in refugee camps (in Muslim countries), waiting to go back to their previous lives that was brutally disrupted, and have no inclination to migrate any further.  This was one thing that hinders the Canadian government in reaching its goal to take in 25,000 refugees in 12 weeks.  The people did not want to leave because they were hoping to return to their homes.

The Saudi monarchy is not now embarked on a brutal military campaign in Yemen, committing unspeakable crimes against humanity.  Guess, who is proving the arms and logistic support?

The brutality of these governments is the Gasoline and Wahabism is the match to start the fire.

 

The Saudis are no choir boys. Indeed they are the ones on whose backs partially rest the woeful condition of the modern Muslims as mindful heirs of their traditions. They inculcated the habit of Islamic exegesis to be completely lacking a reflective philosophy like we see in Christianity of Judaism.  What they face is their own curse. The House of Islam as it exists today is almost completely absent a vibrant living philosophical culture. It survives on official interpretations of holy writ from the mouths of local muftis so full of their own bullshit that their output as authoritative explanations to theology is anti life. It constrains the human will to a morass of useless rituals and rules that makes life valueless hence the easy taking of it on the promise of better.

Much of the Muslim world currently in flames relies on Islamic exegesis that is also undermined by the deoband tradition. They insist everything western is unIslamic.  Much of the Western suspicions about of Islam  reacts to the anti west vitriol that springs easily from this tradition. It is more a curse to the faith than a rationale for clarity in the belief in God. It is the disease we see currently that infests the minds of those from Al Queda to the Taliban to IS and all the fringe groups that are so intent on killing others not ike them  in the name of Islam. You folks never reflect on this but being of the tradition yourself, centers your argumentation on mindless blaming the West. You need to start looking to the inadequacies of your own basis for religious faith.

Refugees rush north because they want a better life not promised anywhere in the Islamic world. In the Islamic world they have little support from the supposed Zakat traditions and so depend mainly on western benefaction. Try as you may to place the blame on the west but it remains and will remain, a cesspool unless remedied by serious changes on the ground. This begins with the introduction of rationality of Islamic convictions applicable to the modern world and justified by reaching for peace, plurality of religions and respect for others. No more random beheading, persecution of Christians and hyper concern for what is supposed clean and unclean when it contradicts common sense. Women must be a full part of society and Mullahs as law givers should replace a professional and authoritative class of interpreters of the law. A revelatory reading of holy writ should not collapse solely to mullah hermeneutics.

If the Koran is to have a worthy place in the modern world interpretations of it cannot be allowed to be ambushed by unlearned quacks. It is the reason the region is in flames. Value in the sacred text has been degraded in the hands of frauds and a fiendish blood cult entertaining anti west prejudices has risen on nomonological readings of the text. The complete lacking of a legacy of rational philosophical justification in soteriological traditions breeds the fanaticism and the rabid jihadism we see today. It is not the west but traditions in Islam itself that is the consequence of the collapse of civilization in the region

Abu Jihad posted:

.

I am not sure what is your argument is about, but those flocking to Europe are displaced refugees that are looking for a safe place to seek refuge. .

 

 

 

 

 

The bulk of those fleeing to Europe are living in Muslim lands, and wish to leave.   Those in Muslim lands live mainly in refugee camps.  A temporary and unsustainable situation.

The Yemenis themselves blame the Saudis.  The fact that you act as the choir for the Saudis just shows how successful the Saudis have been in brainwashing so many Muslims.  There is so much wrong in how that nation operates.

Islam is in terrible shape. These morons would come here and rant about western interventionism as the cause of these states disintegrating but they refuse to accept the unstable foundation on which these societies are built...peculiar interpretations of Islam competing and fragmenting society because it has no coherent theological structure and that is because it is pedagogical and lacks or prohibits analysis and debates about creed. Wisdom has been replaced by dogmatism and sacred preservation of all life by a blood letting culture.

caribny posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

.

I am not sure what is your argument is about, but those flocking to Europe are displaced refugees that are looking for a safe place to seek refuge. .

 

 

 

 

 

The bulk of those fleeing to Europe are living in Muslim lands, and wish to leave.   Those in Muslim lands live mainly in refugee camps.  A temporary and unsustainable situation.

The Yemenis themselves blame the Saudis.  The fact that you act as the choir for the Saudis just shows how successful the Saudis have been in brainwashing so many Muslims.  There is so much wrong in how that nation operates.

You are obviously a confused being.  Where do you get the notion that I am a Saudi choir boy?

Stormborn posted:

Islam is in terrible shape. These morons would come here and rant about western interventionism as the cause of these states disintegrating but they refuse to accept the unstable foundation on which these societies are built...peculiar interpretations of Islam competing and fragmenting society because it has no coherent theological structure and that is because it is pedagogical and lacks or prohibits analysis and debates about creed. Wisdom has been replaced by dogmatism and sacred preservation of all life by a blood letting culture.

Mostly hogwash.

i winder why you blame Islam for the unprecedented levels of tyranny being perpetuated on the masses in the Muslim lands.  The two of you sound like loyal Trump followers.

Abu Jihad posted:

Stormborn posted:

Islam is in terrible shape. These morons would come here and rant about western interventionism as the cause of these states disintegrating but they refuse to accept the unstable foundation on which these societies are built...peculiar interpretations of Islam competing and fragmenting society because it has no coherent theological structure and that is because it is pedagogical and lacks or prohibits analysis and debates about creed. Wisdom has been replaced by dogmatism and sacred preservation of all life by a blood letting culture.

Mostly hogwash.

i winder why you blame Islam for the unprecedented levels of tyranny being perpetuated on the masses in the Muslim lands.  The two of you sound like loyal Trump followers.

 

Not surprised. You are one of those nutters who said the US bombed the world trade center because they wanted to go into Afghanistan. And there is no damn such as "Muslim lands". People lived there before Islam was invented so how the hell did it become Muslim lands if not by virtue of that religious cleansing strategy of Islam...convert or die! I do not give a damn about Trump.

Stormborn posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

Stormborn posted:

Islam is in terrible shape. These morons would come here and rant about western interventionism as the cause of these states disintegrating but they refuse to accept the unstable foundation on which these societies are built...peculiar interpretations of Islam competing and fragmenting society because it has no coherent theological structure and that is because it is pedagogical and lacks or prohibits analysis and debates about creed. Wisdom has been replaced by dogmatism and sacred preservation of all life by a blood letting culture.

Mostly hogwash.

i winder why you blame Islam for the unprecedented levels of tyranny being perpetuated on the masses in the Muslim lands.  The two of you sound like loyal Trump followers.

 

Not surprised. You are one of those nutters who said the US bombed the world trade center because they wanted to go into Afghanistan. And there is no damn such as "Muslim lands". People lived there before Islam was invented so how the hell did it become Muslim lands if not by virtue of that religious cleansing strategy of Islam...convert or die! I do not give a damn about Trump.

You are no different than him in your bigotry and limited intellect.

The folks in the ME thinks that ISIS is a creation of the west while the folks in the west think that that all Muslims are terrorists.  No room for self analysis or rational discussion.

Iman think yall need some Friday nite 'erb

cain posted:

Iman think yall need some Friday nite 'erb

You supplyin or wah

Abu Jihad posted:

Stormborn posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

Stormborn posted:

Islam is in terrible shape. These morons would come here and rant about western interventionism as the cause of these states disintegrating but they refuse to accept the unstable foundation on which these societies are built...peculiar interpretations of Islam competing and fragmenting society because it has no coherent theological structure and that is because it is pedagogical and lacks or prohibits analysis and debates about creed. Wisdom has been replaced by dogmatism and sacred preservation of all life by a blood letting culture.

Mostly hogwash.

i winder why you blame Islam for the unprecedented levels of tyranny being perpetuated on the masses in the Muslim lands.  The two of you sound like loyal Trump followers.

 

Not surprised. You are one of those nutters who said the US bombed the world trade center because they wanted to go into Afghanistan. And there is no damn such as "Muslim lands". People lived there before Islam was invented so how the hell did it become Muslim lands if not by virtue of that religious cleansing strategy of Islam...convert or die! I do not give a damn about Trump.

You are no different than him in your bigotry and limited intellect.

The folks in the ME thinks that ISIS is a creation of the west while the folks in the west think that that all Muslims are terrorists.  No room for self analysis or rational discussion.

It is not a matter of what the believe. It is what are the facts. Their belief systems, forged on isolationist notions of purity from others in islam and that others are unclean blinds them to the reality that they create the means to their own destruction. There is not modern benefits to this world without the west.

If they like you chose to think that the kind of carnage in the name of some existential treat is to blow up their own sacred places, market places and lay waste their children on some pretense there are moral ends it is not a belief system of the west.

If you think you are bright you should proceed to explain yourself but you cant except to regurgitate the same nonsense that produces their misery. In your mind the west is the fault of all things and if that is self analysis or rational discussion you miss the point as to that these concepts are about. The reality is they cannot help themselves with their completely hopelessness predicated by their complete reliance on those abominable mullahs. Were you or they inculcated in the habit of analysis and inquiry you and they would reject that call to carnage from priests as devilish and not divine wisdom.

cain posted:

What is your opinion on the new laws?  My take is the black man is being put out of business as usual.  All of a sudden its something good, and the white man take over the business and the real profits.

Stormborn posted:

It is not a matter of what the believe. It is what are the facts. Their belief systems, forged on isolationist notions of purity from others in islam and that others are unclean blinds them to the reality that they create the means to their own destruction. There is not modern benefits to this world without the west.

If they like you chose to think that the kind of carnage in the name of some existential treat is to blow up their own sacred places, market places and lay waste their children on some pretense there are moral ends it is not a belief system of the west.

If you think you are bright you should proceed to explain yourself but you cant except to regurgitate the same nonsense that produces their misery. In your mind the west is the fault of all things and if that is self analysis or rational discussion you miss the point as to that these concepts are about. The reality is they cannot help themselves with their completely hopelessness predicated by their complete reliance on those abominable mullahs. Were you or they inculcated in the habit of analysis and inquiry you and they would reject that call to carnage from priests as devilish and not divine wisdom.

 

 

Therein lies the basis of your bigotry.  Where did I condone any of these acts?  

You think that I blindly support Wahabi principles just like you drink the noecon koolaid that the invasion of Iraq and other lands was worth the lies in order to get rid of wicked dictators and it has no bearing on the outcome.  Please watch this clips below

Abu Jihad posted:

Stormborn posted:

It is not a matter of what the believe. It is what are the facts. Their belief systems, forged on isolationist notions of purity from others in islam and that others are unclean blinds them to the reality that they create the means to their own destruction. There is not modern benefits to this world without the west.

If they like you chose to think that the kind of carnage in the name of some existential treat is to blow up their own sacred places, market places and lay waste their children on some pretense there are moral ends it is not a belief system of the west.

If you think you are bright you should proceed to explain yourself but you cant except to regurgitate the same nonsense that produces their misery. In your mind the west is the fault of all things and if that is self analysis or rational discussion you miss the point as to that these concepts are about. The reality is they cannot help themselves with their completely hopelessness predicated by their complete reliance on those abominable mullahs. Were you or they inculcated in the habit of analysis and inquiry you and they would reject that call to carnage from priests as devilish and not divine wisdom.

 

 

Therein lies the basis of your bigotry.  Where did I condone any of these acts?  

You think that I blindly support Wahabi principles just like you drink the noecon koolaid that the invasion of Iraq and other lands was worth the lies in order to get rid of wicked dictators and it has no bearing on the outcome.  Please watch this clips below

 

 

What does the above have to what I said? You possibly never read the damn book. I have.  I can post any page of it just to show you I have it and I read it and it is thoroughly marked as I usually do with my books and know well it has not a damn thing to do with why there is the rise of a blood cult over there intent on cannibalizing itself. 

I never said a damn thing about you accepting or not of wahbism. I said there is no philosophical legacy in Islam inclusive of any of the various expressions of it. I said it is absent  self reflection, is dogmatic and incubates blind loyalty and this breeds the particular class of idiots who blame the world rather than themselves for their problems and t hat they  have contempt for any interrogation of their faith.

Any idiot can harbor prejudices but it takes a wise person to develop a rational philosophical basis for ones belief and the means to it on principles that values life, extol the virtue of preserving life wherever it is found and have firm prohibitions to taking it wantonly. The region is in flames because of easy distortion of what is the basis of the faith and lack of a history of valuing the lives of others. 

Stormborn posted:

The region is in flames because of easy distortion of what is the basis of the faith and lack of a history of valuing the lives of others. 

Exactly my point, your asinine assumption that Wahabism is the reason for the region being in flames while disregarding the policies that causes oppression.

I said that "oppression is the gasoline and Wahabiism is the match to set it alight".

There are multiple elements at play but bigotry has you fixated on one.

What does religion have to do with the US policy in the first place.

Abu Jihad posted:

Stormborn posted:

The region is in flames because of easy distortion of what is the basis of the faith and lack of a history of valuing the lives of others. 

Exactly my point, your asinine assumption that Wahabism is the reason for the region being in flames while disregarding the policies that causes oppression.

I said that "oppression is the gasoline and Wahabiism is the match to set it alight".

There are multiple elements at play but bigotry has you fixated on one.

What does religion have to do with the US policy in the first place.

You are missing my point completely. Whabbism, deobandism etc all emerge because there is no analytic infrastructure in Islam. Intransigence to analysis is more than a combination of ignorance and prejudice but an approach to religion itself.

I am fixated on what drives men to so casually blow up themselves in a market place populated with women and children while screaming the name of god. No good religious theology can incubate such a blood cult and be deemed sound. We see the degree of disrespect for life in the region and the supposed religious necessity that drives them to embrace a vitriolic hate for all things western and therefore suspect a diseased meme in the culture and that is what I address.

As I said without the west there can be no health care for them no secure food supply and no prospect for technological advancement. It is an abject disgrace that eh general message to the entire population is that the west is unprincipled, amoral, decadent, irredeemably corrupt and anti them.

I agree that we must find other means to redress political realities in the region except war but it appears that these are not people amenable to dialogue. I would not advise dialog with ISIS. I hope they are dead soon. The same goes for Boko Haram, Al Shabab Al Queda and to a lesser extent the Taliban. Western powers did not create them however you may may want to believe it.

Stormborn posted:

You are missing my point completely. Whabbism, deobandism etc all emerge because there is no analytic infrastructure in Islam. I\

It was never in place throughout the entire 1400 years plus, why do you need it now.  

All the chemotherapy in the world will not cure cancer.

Maybe you should read some Reza Aslan or Karen Armstrong "Fields of Blood.  She eloquently shows that the current situation is not a new phenomena. 

This don't mean that I think that your other points are not relevant.