ksazma posted:

the host stated that the Bible is filled with stories of people sinning and because of these sins, they are not in a position to gain God's favors (or something like that). My question is why is God so arrogant that He will consider Himself to pristine that His own creation are considered with so much disdain by Him. If God is such a perfect creator, how did He end up creating such a creature that even Him cannot reconcile with.

Answer: This is a two part question. The first part is "Why is God so arrogant", the answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God's knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means "all-knowing.", Scripture references: Job 37:16; Psalm 139:2-4, 147:5; Proverbs 5:21; Isaiah 46:9-10; and 1 John 3:19-20 leave no doubt that God's knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives of those verses mention above "perfect in knowledge"; "his understanding has no limit"; "he knows everything" it is clear that God's knowledge is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He "make known" to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So, did God know that man were going to sin? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not. If God's knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God's nature means He cannot be God, for God's very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes.

We have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So, if God knew that man would sin, yet He created man anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God's sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have mention
thus far.

Now we must be careful to note that man falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted man to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God's overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case, or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

Moving on to the second part of the question, "reconcile", as you alluded too below, when Christ died on the cross, He satisfied God's judgment and made it possible for God's enemies, us, to find peace with Him. Our "reconciliation" to God, then, involves the exercise of His grace and the forgiveness of our sin. We were in a state of condemnation because of our sins, but we are now forgiven. We were at war with God, but now have the peace that transcends all understanding (Philippians 4:7).

So to make His initial screw-up right, He sent His son to die for those sins. Since it was Him who screwed up His creation, why didn't He come Himself to die for those sins that were committed because He screwed up His perfect creation? And even after His son's blood was shed, sins continued to occur which proves that even His decision to send His son to die was a mistake. Lots of mistakes from one who is supposed to be so perfect.

Why didn't God just do like any other reasonable person and say. I did not create a perfect creation and since it is not of their own fault, I will forgive them and continue to do so since I made the ultimate error? Being one who knows all things, He should have already known that sending His son to die will not remove sins one bit as we see today, there are even more people committing sins than when He sent His son.

Question: Before I answer your questions above talk to me about the attributes of the God you serve.

I think that this whole Biblical concept about sins is nonsense.

By the way, why how do you did Satan come about. I cant remember. 

Amral posted:

By the way, why how do you did Satan come about. I cant remember. 

If I am reading your question correct you are asking, "How Satan came about"? Correct? If so, Satan was created as a holy angel. Isaiah 14:12 possibly gives Satan's pre-fall name as Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:12-14 describes Satan as having been created a cherub, apparently the highest created angel. He became arrogant in his beauty and status and decided he wanted to sit on a throne above that of God (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:15; 1 Timothy 3:6). Satan's pride led to his fall. Notice the many "I will" statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Because of his sin, God permanently removed Satan from his exalted position and role. 

Yes thats what i meant Keith, thanks.

God then should have destroyed Lucifer instead of casting him out. 

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Amral posted:

Yes thats what i meant Keith, thanks.

God then should have destroyed Lucifer instead of casting him out. 

See. Amral displays much better knowledge and judgment than that God.

ksazma posted:

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Yes no one knows the truth. Is there really a heaven and hell. Nothing was ever proven. The holy books, whether it is the Bible, the Koran or the Vedas, how can we really believe them.

Looking at research, many things have been proven about the creation of the universe through actual scientific facts. 

Angels rock!

Oi Kaz, if Satan means...one who opposes (opposition) BJ gotta be the Satan being spoken of.

ksazma posted:

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

Answer: God omniscient but yet choose to go forth with His creation, is that not, as you put it "God's arrogance"?

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

Answer: I am not going to bored you by sounding repetitious. There was a discussion about free will and also about the purpose of the sacrifice, look it up it should answer your statement above. 

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Answer: I agree with the statement in bold. People have different ideas about heaven. Many have no understanding of God at all, but still like to think of heaven as the "better place" where we all go when we die. Ideas about heaven are often no more than vague hopes, on par with "maybe I'll win the lottery some day." Most people don't give heaven much thought until they attend a funeral or a loved one dies. It is popular to refer to heaven as the place where "the good people go." And of course, everyone they know and love is included in the category of "good people."

The people who go to heaven are all alike in one way, they are sinners who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). They have recognized their need for a Savior and humbly accepted God's offer of forgiveness. They have repented of their old ways of living and set their course to follow Christ (Mark 8:34; John 15:14). They have not attempted to earn God's forgiveness but have served him gladly from grateful hearts (Psalm 100:2). The kind of faith that saves a soul is one that transforms a life (James 2:26; 1 John 3:9-10) and rests fully on the grace of God.


Any chance I can get you to tell me about the attributes of the God you serve?

In the link below Dr. Stanley discusses the sovereignty of God and the implications His authority has on creation and our relationship with Him. Acknowledging God’s sovereign nature is vital for believers to serve Him wholeheartedly and to accomplish His purposes with confidence.

If you’ve ever found yourself questioning the limits of God’s power or the wisdom of His decisions, this message will provide a sound biblical basis for faith and trust in our omnipotent, omniscient Father. Source:-Intouch Ministries.

This was right on time. Is was aired today on Intouch Ministries.  

The Sovereignty of God

Charles Stanley is one Minister I have high respect for. I have watched him on TV a few times.

Keith posted:

ksazma posted:

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

Answer: God omniscient but yet choose to go forth with His creation, is that not, as you put it "God's arrogance"?

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

Answer: I am not going to bored you by sounding repetitious. There was a discussion about free will and also about the purpose of the sacrifice, look it up it should answer your statement above. 

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Answer: I agree with the statement in bold. People have different ideas about heaven. Many have no understanding of God at all, but still like to think of heaven as the "better place" where we all go when we die. Ideas about heaven are often no more than vague hopes, on par with "maybe I'll win the lottery some day." Most people don't give heaven much thought until they attend a funeral or a loved one dies. It is popular to refer to heaven as the place where "the good people go." And of course, everyone they know and love is included in the category of "good people."

The people who go to heaven are all alike in one way, they are sinners who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). They have recognized their need for a Savior and humbly accepted God's offer of forgiveness. They have repented of their old ways of living and set their course to follow Christ (Mark 8:34; John 15:14). They have not attempted to earn God's forgiveness but have served him gladly from grateful hearts (Psalm 100:2). The kind of faith that saves a soul is one that transforms a life (James 2:26; 1 John 3:9-10) and rests fully on the grace of God.


Any chance I can get you to tell me about the attributes of the God you serve?

I prefer not to add any distraction to the discussion of how the Bible address sins and how to remove then and if that method has worked or not. Me pointing to what I serve would only distract from that.

Coming back to the comment made by the person on Moody Radio, they suggested that in order for people to be relieved of the burden of sin, God sent his son to die. The trouble is that there is no evidence that Jesus dying on the cross has relieved anyone of the burden of any sins and there is even more evidence that much more sins are being committed if one considers the vast increase of the world's population alone. In fact, even the Bible talks of Peter disobeying Jesus just after Jesus died so even when the incident was still fresh, the burden of sins was still rampant.

This idea of blood needing to be shed for one to be relieved of sins is a fallacy of the preaching of the Bible. It was wrongfully believed that blood can wash away sins and if God sent his son to shed his blood to wash away sins, then God too either propagated it or fell for the fallacy that blood can wash away sins. All evidence have shown that people sin all the time and there are no easy way to be relieved of those sins. It is no different than any other aspect of life. One is bound to sleep in the bed they make. If one wants a better bed to sleep in, one needs to get off their ass and work for that bed and as they progress on their journey, so does the progress of that bed. Now God still has the power of forgiveness and the ability to offer that bed but it is a cheap proposition that someone can just get that bed for just asking. Lots of people are too comfortable just asking for things without even giving the thought that they should make some effort to do so. Sitting in a church singing the praises of God day and night only satisfy God's ego but does not do anything for the person singing those praises as any lazy person can do that.

If God wants to forgive someone for their sins, He or She can do so by just doing so. They don't need to continue the misguided charade that some Jewish people from Moses' time or maybe even before came up with that blood is needed to wash away sins. As mentioned above, all evidence has shown that Jesus blood did nothing to wash away sins and only act as another example of how people think that they can solve issues through shedding blood.

Amral showed much more wisdom than God when he suggested that God could have just burned Lucifer. Doing that would have kept sin out of the world and would have even kept Jesus from having his blood shed.

I am not interested in fancy talk of preachers and politicians. In my opinion, they are all con artists.

All I am asking of you is to share with me the attributes of the God you serve. Could you do that?

Amral posted:

Charles Stanley is one Minister I have high respect for. I have watched him on TV a few times.

In my view he is the best pastor I came across thus far. I like his style of teaching, clarity and the points/steps he would layout within his messages. 

ksazma posted:

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Hebrews tells the whole story. The writer Paul, explains it all. It appears as fantasy, but that is how supernatural things are. 

seignet posted:

ksazma posted:

The question is not about the level of God's knowledge, it is about how someone so supposedly knowledgeable yet so arrogant that he cannot find a method for forgiving them without seeking the shedding of someone's blood. But the kicker is although he sent his son to be butchered instead of coming putting himself up to be butchered instead, the world today has even more sins than when his son was butchered. From all evidence, this so called perfectly knowledgeable being miscalculated once again.

The sad truth is that people don't show that they are at any more peace with God after he sent his son to be slaughtered. If God is so forgiving, why couldn't he just use all that knowledge he supposedly has and forgive people for their sins instead of carrying the charade that he has been carrying on with.

I hear people all the time say that when they die they will meet up with their other family members in heaven. That is a pipe dream and a con job because no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The reality is that no one even know if any heaven exist. Some of those people who think they are going to heaven have lived what seems to be less than good lives on this earth yet their families think they will be going to heaven.

Hebrews tells the whole story. The writer Paul, explains it all. It appears as fantasy, but that is how supernatural things are. 

Bai Siggy, then that supernatural thing lacks common sense. 

Keith posted:

All I am asking of you is to share with me the attributes of the God you serve. Could you do that?

Currently, I am not sure I serve any God. That said, it is still irrelevant to my argument regarding the snippet from Moody Radio.

ksazma posted:

Keith posted:

All I am asking of you is to share with me the attributes of the God you serve. Could you do that?

Currently, I am not sure I serve any God. That said, it is still irrelevant to my argument regarding the snippet from Moody Radio.

Did you not mention before you are a Muslim? The question I have asked is relevant in regards to your snippet, I await your answer.

If a perfect God made man, then man must be perfect, and in that perfection there can be no such thing as sin. Therefore, either the concept of God or the concept of sin is crap.

Man was not created sinful by nature. God created man entirely holy and sinless. Our sinful condition is not the result of God’s creative work, but is a historical consequence of our abuse of free will. To say that God should have created us "for the most part holy and not sinful" fails to do justice to the true freedom and consequences of free will.

Keith posted:

Man was not created sinful by nature. God created man entirely holy and sinless. Our sinful condition is not the result of God’s creative work, but is a historical consequence of our abuse of free will. To say that God should have created us "for the most part holy and not sinful" fails to do justice to the true freedom and consequences of free will.

Encompassing "sins" in that free will is paradoxical because perfection cannot "sin".

antabanta posted:

If a perfect God made man, then man must be perfect, and in that perfection there can be no such thing as sin. Therefore, either the concept of God or the concept of sin is crap.

You assumption on man must be perfect because he was created by a perfect God is wrong. Again God created us and give us a free will and urge us to... "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48, NIV.

The scriptures stated that God created man in His image. It clearly wasn’t referring to physical image because God doesn’t have boobs and since Eve was created by God’s own hands, her boobs must be perfect. I think it has more to do with qualities. Therefore, if man’s qualities image God’s, it would be impossible for man to sin since God cannot sin. But obviously man is primed to sin so he cannot be in God’s image.

We see many instances in the scriptures where God doesn’t seem as perfect as claimed. We see Him yelling out in the wilderness asking Moses where he is when He is supposed to be all knowing. We see Him subscribing to the faulty inclination and subsequent learning from them that it was not a good idea to subscribe. We see Jesus who is supposed to be just as perfect and all knowing preaching incessantly that Judas will be with him in heaven only to give up on that idea after he realized that Judas had betrayed him. Is like Trump bragging about hiring the best people only to refer to then as never trumpers after he realizes that they are not going to help him with his illegalities anymore. Seems like God is no more perfect than Trump. 😀

The reality is God never created a perfect man nor did he create man in his image. Man was created from clay which is not even as strong as mud.

Keith posted:

antabanta posted:

If a perfect God made man, then man must be perfect, and in that perfection there can be no such thing as sin. Therefore, either the concept of God or the concept of sin is crap.

You assumption on man must be perfect because he was created by a perfect God is wrong. Again God created us and give us a free will and urge us to... "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48, NIV.

My assumption??? The idea of a gray-bearded old white man sitting somewhere up in the sky who created the everything in our world is your assumption. Not mine. I find the idea abhorrent. But to humor you, why is my "assumption" wrong? Is God not perfect?

Accordingly, humanity is unique among all God’s creations, having both a material body and an immaterial soul/spirit.

Having the "image" or "likeness" of God means, in the simplest terms, that we were made to resemble God. Adam did not resemble God in the sense of God’s having flesh and blood. Scripture says that "God is spirit" (John 4:24) and therefore exists without a body. However, Adam’s body did mirror the life of God insofar as it was created in perfect health and was not subject to death.

The image of God (Latin: imago dei) refers to the immaterial part of humanity. It sets human beings apart from the animal world, fits them for the dominion God intended them to have over the earth (Genesis 1:28), and enables them to commune with their Maker. It is a likeness mentally, morally, and socially.

Mentally, humanity was created as a rational, volitional agent. In other words, human beings can reason and choose. This is a reflection of God’s intellect and freedom. Anytime someone invents a machine, writes a book, paints a landscape, enjoys a symphony, calculates a sum, or names a pet, he or she is proclaiming the fact that we are made in God’s image.

Morally, humanity was created in righteousness and perfect innocence, a reflection of God’s holiness. God saw all He had made (humanity included) and called it "very good" (Genesis 1:31). Our conscience or "moral compass" is a vestige of that original state. Whenever someone writes a law, recoils from evil, praises good behavior, or feels guilty, he or she is confirming the fact that we are made in God’s own image.

Socially, humanity was created for fellowship. This reflects God's triune nature and His love. In Eden, humanity’s primary relationship was with God (Genesis 3:8 implies fellowship with God), and God made the first woman because "it is not good for the man to be alone" (Genesis 2:18). Every time someone marries, makes a friend, hugs a child, or attends church, he or she is demonstrating the fact that we are made in the likeness of God.

Part of being made in God’s image is that Adam had the capacity to make free choices. Although they were given a righteous nature, Adam and Eve made an evil choice to rebel against their Creator. In so doing, they marred the image of God within themselves, and passed that damaged likeness on to all of their descendants (Romans 5:12). Today, we still bear the image of God (James 3:9), but we also bear the scars of sin. Mentally, morally, socially, and physically, we show the effects of sin.

The good news is that when God redeems an individual, He begins to restore the original image of God, creating a "new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness" (Ephesians 4:24). That redemption is only available by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior from the sin that separates us from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through Christ, we are made new creations in the likeness of God (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Also see: "What It Means to Be “Made in the Image of God”

Keith posted:

Accordingly, humanity is unique among all God’s creations, having both a material body and an immaterial soul/spirit.

I only read the first two lines. Its purpose is to boost your ego and justify atrocities committed against other life forms.

Exactly my point Keith barring my colorful descriptions of things. Likeness was not about physical state but rather immaterial precepts (mentally, morally, socially, etc.). Therefore, that likeness cannot sin and suffer death because God cannot sin and die.

Regarding sin, if death is because of sin, why do birds and animals die when they don't sin?

In my humble opinion, I don't think human were ever intended to not die. I think that God created human just as He did every other creatures. To have life and experience death. Sin has nothing to do with it. I do think people are born without sin. I also don't think that Jesus' death did anything to reduce, remove or eliminate sin.

But then again, I am not sure how much I believe all the things that the scriptures claim.

Animals, with all creation, are certainly affected by sin. But do animals themselves sin, or is sin a strictly human practice? According to the Bible, sin is a transgression of the law. It is rebellion against God in thought, word, or deed (1 John 3:4). Animals did not rebel against God; man did.

When God created the world, sin did not exist (Genesis 1:31). Sin entered the world through the rebellious choice of one man, Adam (Genesis 3:11; Romans 5:12). Because of that disobedience, the world was cursed and has groaned under the weight of that curse ever since (Genesis 3:17–19; Romans 8:21–22). Some of the repercussions of man’s fall were that the ground grew thorns (Genesis 3:18), pain became part of life (Genesis 3:16), and physical death became a reality (Genesis 3:19). The animal world is subject to the curse, not because of their own sin, but because sin by its nature has widespread repercussions. As part of the curse of man’s sin, animals turned upon mankind and each other, many surviving only through violence and bloodshed.

Animals do not sin. They are incapable of sin because they were not created as independent moral agents. For an act to be sinful, there must be the violation of an indisputable law. Sin does not begin with the act; it originates in a soul that has the law of God written upon it (Romans 2:15; James 1:14). Human beings are created in the image of God with an everlasting soul (Genesis 1:27). Animals are not. When God created Adam, He "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7). That living soul contains a conscience—an innate knowledge of right and wrong—and the ability to make moral choices apart from the survival instinct. We humans have the ability to choose obedience to God’s moral law, but we choose to follow our own inclinations instead (Genesis 8:21; Isaiah 53:6). Animals do not have an immortal soul created in God’s image. Although they can choose obedience, it is usually due to external motivators such as treats and training. Animals do not have the law of God imprinted upon their hearts and therefore cannot transgress it.

 After the flood, God established a new order of human existence (Genesis 9:8–17). He made a covenant with Noah that included the prohibition against murder, based upon the truth that mankind was created in His own image. Genesis 9:5–6, says, "And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind" (emphasis added). Animals that killed humans were to be killed, not as a punishment for sin but because they had destroyed the image of God. This principle is carried through in the Mosaic Law (Exodus 21:28).

 God did not require such accounting for a person shedding animal blood; in fact, God required animal sacrifices as a sign of repentance for ancient Israel (Numbers 6:14; Leviticus 9:2). Throughout history, God has established the pattern that, wherever there is sin, He makes provision for that sin—a means by which man can be made right with Him again (Genesis 3:21). Romans 5:20 says, "But where sin increased, grace increased all the more." Wherever sin exists, God provides a way for forgiveness. Jesus Christ came to earth as a man in order to be the sacrifice for mankind’s sin so that we could be made right with God (Philippians 2:5–11; 1 Timothy 2:5). No such provision has been made on behalf of animals, signifying, again, that they do not possess immortal souls, they have no moral law written upon their hearts, and they do not bear the responsibility of sin. Animals cannot sin against God, and thus they require no means of forgiveness from God.

 Animals do not sin. When a tomcat "sleeps around," it is not sinning, for the moral laws of God do not apply to cats. When a black widow spider kills and eats its mate, it is not guilty of murder, for murder can only be committed by and against a free moral agent, created in God’s image. Mankind is obligated to keep the law of God, which was specifically given to him, and he alone bears the responsibility for the law’s transgression. When Adam fell, he dragged the animal world down with him, and "the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it" (Romans 8:20). All creation now "waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed," because "the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay" when, in God’s good time, the curse is reversed (Romans 8:19, 21; cf. Revelation 22:3).

A perfect God cannot possibly create something that would "sin". Even so, did God in his omniscient and infinite wisdom not have foreknowledge that man would "sin" and does he not already know how many, who, when, and where would "sin"? If so, did he then merely create the world and our exist for the sole purpose of populating hell which he would already have known prior to creation would be filled quickly because of his rules and regulations?

antabanta posted:

A perfect God cannot possibly create something that would "sin". Even so, did God in his omniscient and infinite wisdom not have foreknowledge that man would "sin" and does he not already know how many, who, when, and where would "sin"? If so, did he then merely create the world and our exist for the sole purpose of populating hell which he would already have known prior to creation would be filled quickly because of his rules and regulations?

This is exactly my argument regarding the message that was being conveyed on Moody Radio. Because I listen with a critical attitude, I can recognize the erroneous narrative whereas believers will not. They are too swayed by the message to ask critical questions. It just seem like God was not too aware of what he had created, how it will turn out or what to do when things get out of control.

Either that of the dark reality you just painted where the all knowing God created us (seems like for fun and games) all to fill hell. Jesus being killed some 2000 years ago has done nothing to stop, slow down or eliminate sin proving again that God sent Jesus to die in vain.

Keith posted:

Animals, with all creation, are certainly affected by sin. But do animals themselves sin, or is sin a strictly human practice? According to the Bible, sin is a transgression of the law. It is rebellion against God in thought, word, or deed (1 John 3:4). Animals did not rebel against God; man did.

When God created the world, sin did not exist (Genesis 1:31). Sin entered the world through the rebellious choice of one man, Adam (Genesis 3:11; Romans 5:12). Because of that disobedience, the world was cursed and has groaned under the weight of that curse ever since (Genesis 3:17–19; Romans 8:21–22). Some of the repercussions of man’s fall were that the ground grew thorns (Genesis 3:18), pain became part of life (Genesis 3:16), and physical death became a reality (Genesis 3:19). The animal world is subject to the curse, not because of their own sin, but because sin by its nature has widespread repercussions. As part of the curse of man’s sin, animals turned upon mankind and each other, many surviving only through violence and bloodshed.

Animals do not sin. They are incapable of sin because they were not created as independent moral agents. For an act to be sinful, there must be the violation of an indisputable law. Sin does not begin with the act; it originates in a soul that has the law of God written upon it (Romans 2:15; James 1:14). Human beings are created in the image of God with an everlasting soul (Genesis 1:27). Animals are not. When God created Adam, He "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7). That living soul contains a conscience—an innate knowledge of right and wrong—and the ability to make moral choices apart from the survival instinct. We humans have the ability to choose obedience to God’s moral law, but we choose to follow our own inclinations instead (Genesis 8:21; Isaiah 53:6). Animals do not have an immortal soul created in God’s image. Although they can choose obedience, it is usually due to external motivators such as treats and training. Animals do not have the law of God imprinted upon their hearts and therefore cannot transgress it.

 After the flood, God established a new order of human existence (Genesis 9:8–17). He made a covenant with Noah that included the prohibition against murder, based upon the truth that mankind was created in His own image. Genesis 9:5–6, says, "And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind" (emphasis added). Animals that killed humans were to be killed, not as a punishment for sin but because they had destroyed the image of God. This principle is carried through in the Mosaic Law (Exodus 21:28).

 God did not require such accounting for a person shedding animal blood; in fact, God required animal sacrifices as a sign of repentance for ancient Israel (Numbers 6:14; Leviticus 9:2). Throughout history, God has established the pattern that, wherever there is sin, He makes provision for that sin—a means by which man can be made right with Him again (Genesis 3:21). Romans 5:20 says, "But where sin increased, grace increased all the more." Wherever sin exists, God provides a way for forgiveness. Jesus Christ came to earth as a man in order to be the sacrifice for mankind’s sin so that we could be made right with God (Philippians 2:5–11; 1 Timothy 2:5). No such provision has been made on behalf of animals, signifying, again, that they do not possess immortal souls, they have no moral law written upon their hearts, and they do not bear the responsibility of sin. Animals cannot sin against God, and thus they require no means of forgiveness from God.

 Animals do not sin. When a tomcat "sleeps around," it is not sinning, for the moral laws of God do not apply to cats. When a black widow spider kills and eats its mate, it is not guilty of murder, for murder can only be committed by and against a free moral agent, created in God’s image. Mankind is obligated to keep the law of God, which was specifically given to him, and he alone bears the responsibility for the law’s transgression. When Adam fell, he dragged the animal world down with him, and "the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it" (Romans 8:20). All creation now "waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed," because "the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay" when, in God’s good time, the curse is reversed (Romans 8:19, 21; cf. Revelation 22:3).

However, it still does not explain why a sinless animals would have to die if death came about because of sin. The wages of sin is death. If God did create man and beast, He did not create them to live forever and sin is not the reason that death is experienced since animals don't sin.

ksazma posted:

 

However, it still does not explain why a sinless animals would have to die if death came about because of sin. The wages of sin is death. If God did create man and beast, He did not create them to live forever and sin is not the reason that death is experienced since animals don't sin.

Did you over read what I sated above concerning the animals? Not surprised anyway. I like highlighted statement above, could you finish the statement in it's entirety?

ksazma posted:

antabanta posted:

A perfect God cannot possibly create something that would "sin". Even so, did God in his omniscient and infinite wisdom not have foreknowledge that man would "sin" and does he not already know how many, who, when, and where would "sin"? If so, did he then merely create the world and our exist for the sole purpose of populating hell which he would already have known prior to creation would be filled quickly because of his rules and regulations?

This is exactly my argument regarding the message that was being conveyed on Moody Radio. Because I listen with a critical attitude, I can recognize the erroneous narrative whereas believers will not. They are too swayed by the message to ask critical questions. It just seem like God was not too aware of what he had created, how it will turn out or what to do when things get out of control.

Either that of the dark reality you just painted where the all knowing God created us (seems like for fun and games) all to fill hell. Jesus being killed some 2000 years ago has done nothing to stop, slow down or eliminate sin proving again that God sent Jesus to die in vain.

Looks like the point cannot be rebutted.

Keith posted:

ksazma posted:

 

However, it still does not explain why a sinless animals would have to die if death came about because of sin. The wages of sin is death. If God did create man and beast, He did not create them to live forever and sin is not the reason that death is experienced since animals don't sin.

Did you over read what I sated above concerning the animals? Not surprised anyway. I like highlighted statement above, could you finish the statement in it's entirety?

I did and I still stand by my argument that since animals don't sin, they shouldn't suffer death. Unless you are suggesting that God is unfairly punishing them for the sins of man or you are suggesting that they are created only for our use or abuse. That is why I don't agree that everyone is burdened with sin because of A SINGLE action of Adam and Eve. But I can relent some when you make the argument that eventually all human will sin so they need to experience death. But since there are absolutely no chance of animals sinning, I maintain that it is a huge mistake that they should also experience death since death is the wages of sin.

I am not interested in the preaching because I am fully aware that preachers are not only trained on the contents of the scripture but also how to deliver them for maximum results. The audience gets swayed by the style and lose track of the substance. Preaching is supposed to be inspirational and influential. "All scriptures are by inspiration and are profitable for ……." But while those preachers will preach that all scriptures are by inspiration, they too will tell you that not all scriptures are by inspiration. They instead that some scriptures are by false prophets and imposters. "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life …." Interestingly we can witness the wages of man but the gifts may be no more than pie in the sky as no one has experienced it and able to tell about it.

I am more concerned with what we see and from all evidence, God's actions in many ways seem to be far less certain than those of man. We can depend on man's promises far more than we can God as God has never proven that He can be relied on.

antabanta posted:

ksazma posted:

antabanta posted:

A perfect God cannot possibly create something that would "sin". Even so, did God in his omniscient and infinite wisdom not have foreknowledge that man would "sin" and does he not already know how many, who, when, and where would "sin"? If so, did he then merely create the world and our exist for the sole purpose of populating hell which he would already have known prior to creation would be filled quickly because of his rules and regulations?

This is exactly my argument regarding the message that was being conveyed on Moody Radio. Because I listen with a critical attitude, I can recognize the erroneous narrative whereas believers will not. They are too swayed by the message to ask critical questions. It just seem like God was not too aware of what he had created, how it will turn out or what to do when things get out of control.

Either that of the dark reality you just painted where the all knowing God created us (seems like for fun and games) all to fill hell. Jesus being killed some 2000 years ago has done nothing to stop, slow down or eliminate sin proving again that God sent Jesus to die in vain.

Looks like the point cannot be rebutted.

Brother Keith is conditioned to approach things through his Christian experience but I am asking about the real things we see, feel, live.

Just to reiterate. According to the scriptures, God give everlasting life while man’s actions causes death. Since we have many examples of deaths but zero example of everlasting life, then man must have real power while God doesn’t.

You may have closed your eyes while reading this paragraph at first so here it is again.

"When God created the world, sin did not exist (Genesis 1:31). Sin entered the world through the rebellious choice of one man, Adam (Genesis 3:11; Romans 5:12). Because of that disobedience, the world was cursed and has groaned under the weight of that curse ever since (Genesis 3:17–19; Romans 8:21–22). Some of the repercussions of man’s fall were that the ground grew thorns (Genesis 3:18), pain became part of life (Genesis 3:16), and physical death became a reality (Genesis 3:19). The animal world is subject to the curse, not because of their own sin, but because sin by its nature has widespread repercussions. As part of the curse of man’s sin, animals turned upon mankind and each other, many surviving only through violence and bloodshed."

The same argument you are making for animals lets throw in plants in the mix. Tell me why the trees and flowers have to die? They didn't sin.

ksazma posted:

Just to reiterate. According to the scriptures, God give everlasting life while man’s actions causes death. Since we have many examples of deaths but zero example of everlasting life, then man must have real power while God doesn’t.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Our sin separates us from God, the creator and sustainer of life. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life" (John 14:6). God is known as the great "I AM." Life is in God. So, when we sin and become separated from God, we become separated from true life. Sin does not necessarily result in physical death right away, rather, it is referring to spiritual death. Christ died so we don't have to face the ultimate penalty of sin, "eternal separation from God".

Think of a child and a parent. When a child disobeys, the relationship with his parent is strained. The parent still loves the child and still has the child’s best interest at heart. The child never stops belonging to the parent. However, the child may experience some consequences: mistrust, discipline, a sense of guilt, and the like. The relationship is ultimately restored, but generally pain comes first.

So it is with us and God. When we rebel against God’s rule in our lives, we rebel against the Life, and therefore experience "death" (a brokenness resulting in pain). When we return to God, we are also restored to spiritual life communion with God, a sense of purpose, righteousness, freedom, etc.