Django posted:

skeldon_man posted:

yuji22 posted:

Tola recommended that we digitalize and scan our ancestors documents. That is very important. I did that plus I scanned our passports that we came from Guyana with. These will be important documents that future generations will need and cherish.

It is so important that we keep our history and records intact.

I also recommend that you trace back your family origin to India. I cannot describe the excitement of meeting my ancestors family from India. 

You have your old Guyana passport? I barely got some old photos when I left Guyana.

I have mine and my ID card,lost my NIS card.

You should try to get copies. It is best to save them for future Generations.

D2 posted:

Django posted:

Found out my Great Great Maternal Grandparents were an Aboriginal Tribe of India.

Most Guyanese are tribals...from more than 20 tribes

So what happened to the Bhojpuries, Bengalies and Biharies-you consider them to be tribes? Those were considered to be people from the plains.

The Dhangurs were hills people, perhaps considered as Tribals. Many went to Assam and Ceylon to pick tea, some to Mauritius. By time the of British Guiana, the Dhangurs were not recruitable. 

However, famines drove those of the plains to Calcutta, from where they sought the way out.

seignet posted:

D2 posted:

Django posted:

Found out my Great Great Maternal Grandparents were an Aboriginal Tribe of India.

Most Guyanese are tribals...from more than 20 tribes

So what happened to the Bhojpuries, Bengalies and Biharies-you consider them to be tribes? Those were considered to be people from the plains.

The Dhangurs were hills people, perhaps considered as Tribals. Many went to Assam and Ceylon to pick tea, some to Mauritius. By time the of British Guiana, the Dhangurs were not recruitable. 

However, famines drove those of the plains to Calcutta, from where they sought the way out.

D2 does speak from his rear sometimes.

yuji22 posted:

skeldon_man posted:

yuji22 posted:

Listen Antie Ronan,

Too bad for you if you can’t trace your ancestry. 

He is from the Mandinka Warrior Tribe, the same place as Kunta Kinte.

That clown wants to rain on other people’s parade. He is envious that Indos are proud of and are tracing back their ancestry. 

Looks like he is stuck hence his anger. 

No he wants to find out why Indians are much worse off than their fellow indentures, the Chinese and Portuguese and struggle to do better than those who were kidnapped and then stripped of their culture.

Your attempts to denigrate black people (as usual) are noted but I would look in the mirror to see why you think that you are superior.

Ai carib. Stop your eye pass and lies. I NEVER stated or think that Indos are superior. Bai, you never saw that Ronan was the one denigrating Indos.

God created everyone equally and we are equal in his eyes. No single person or race is superior. 

Na start your lies now.

I hold my fire as I now carry my Idol Marley Avatar. One Love.

yuji22 posted:

seignet posted:

D2 posted:

Django posted:

Found out my Great Great Maternal Grandparents were an Aboriginal Tribe of India.

Most Guyanese are tribals...from more than 20 tribes

So what happened to the Bhojpuries, Bengalies and Biharies-you consider them to be tribes? Those were considered to be people from the plains.

The Dhangurs were hills people, perhaps considered as Tribals. Many went to Assam and Ceylon to pick tea, some to Mauritius. By time the of British Guiana, the Dhangurs were not recruitable. 

However, famines drove those of the plains to Calcutta, from where they sought the way out.

D2 does speak from his rear sometimes.

Alyuh two should browse the digital illustration of the people of Hindustan,that was taken in 1808.Check the link posted.

It's history,found it very heart warming,proud that my ancestors was Aboriginals from Benares.

yuji22 posted:

Ai carib. Stop your eye pass and lies. I NEVER stated or think that Indos are superior. Bai, you never saw that Ronan was the one denigrating Indos.

God created everyone equally and we are equal in his eyes. No single person or race is superior. 

Na start your lies now.

I hold my fire as I now carry my Idol Marley Avatar. One Love.

So why should blacks be envious of Indians then and this is the rant that we hear frequently from you and the rest of your kin?

Afro Guyanese are very proud of who we are.  Like other blacks throughout the Americas we rebuilt our identities and have evolved into a very resilient people. And like it or not it is this culture that was developed which facilitated the ability for Indians to assimilate into and interact with the rest of Guyana.

Case in point. What language/dialect do most Indians speak?  Answer, not Hindi or Bhojpuri, except in limited situations.  Nor do they sound like Englishmen.  And most don't even speak standard English in most situations.  Go over to Suriname which vernacular do they speak when they want to interact with the larger society,  Srnan or Suriname Hindi?

Yes its this very creole culture developed by blacks throughout the Caribbean which facilitates interactions between the various groups.

So cease with your implication that we don't know who we are or that we must be envious of Indians.

I can tell you this. Whatever you are you aren't an Asian Indian.

@Django and @Former Member

Re: National ID & NIS Cards

Although I emigrated 22 years ago I can still recite my 6-digit ID number and my 7-digit NIS card number by heart. The physical cards are in my suitcase which I haven't touched for years.

BTW yuji, why did you remove the PPP flag from your avatar? I thought you would have kept it until LGE voting day.

Gilbakka posted:

@Django and @Former Member

Re: National ID & NIS Cards

Although I emigrated 22 years ago I can still recite my 6-digit ID number and my 7-digit NIS card number by heart. The physical cards are in my suitcase which I haven't touched for years.

BTW yuji, why did you remove the PPP flag from your avatar? I thought you would have kept it until LGE voting day.

Yuh still sharp bhai don't remember mine.

Gilbakka posted:

@Django and @Former Member

Re: National ID & NIS Cards

Although I emigrated 22 years ago I can still recite my 6-digit ID number and my 7-digit NIS card number by heart. The physical cards are in my suitcase which I haven't touched for years.

BTW yuji, why did you remove the PPP flag from your avatar? I thought you would have kept it until LGE voting day.

Bai, I man celebrating my four year fight to legalize weed in support of my Vegetarian Rasta Brothers using my idol Bob Marley Avatar. 

Gilbakka posted:

@Django and @Former Member

Re: National ID & NIS Cards

Although I emigrated 22 years ago I can still recite my 6-digit ID number and my 7-digit NIS card number by heart. The physical cards are in my suitcase which I haven't touched for years.

BTW yuji, why did you remove the PPP flag from your avatar? I thought you would have kept it until LGE voting day.

I think he is contemplating jumping ship, be careful he can sprain his ankle.

Django posted:

yuji22 posted:

seignet posted:

D2 posted:

Django posted:

Found out my Great Great Maternal Grandparents were an Aboriginal Tribe of India.

Most Guyanese are tribals...from more than 20 tribes

So what happened to the Bhojpuries, Bengalies and Biharies-you consider them to be tribes? Those were considered to be people from the plains.

The Dhangurs were hills people, perhaps considered as Tribals. Many went to Assam and Ceylon to pick tea, some to Mauritius. By time the of British Guiana, the Dhangurs were not recruitable. 

However, famines drove those of the plains to Calcutta, from where they sought the way out.

D2 does speak from his rear sometimes.

Alyuh two should browse the digital illustration of the people of Hindustan,that was taken in 1808.Check the link posted.

It's history,found it very heart warming,proud that my ancestors was Aboriginals from Benares.

Hills people were Tribes and not Hindus, uneducated. People from the Plains were castes and Hindus. Tribes people worked for White Indigo planters and returned to the Hills after the planting and harvesting. After the decline of indigo they harvested tea and moved away from hills.

In 1838, Guyana would have Indians after Fiji and Mauritius. To think, all those ppl were Tribes would not be plausible. Just look at the old photographs, see how dem dress.

seignet posted:

In 1838, Guyana would have Indians after Fiji and Mauritius. To think, all those ppl were Tribes would not be plausible. Just look at the old photographs, see how dem dress.

Not all some may have been recruited,the name listed as caste on my GGF and Family records,is not any that is known.I inquired from some folks there was no answer,they never heard of it.

kp posted:

Gilbakka posted:

@Django and @Former Member

Re: National ID & NIS Cards

Although I emigrated 22 years ago I can still recite my 6-digit ID number and my 7-digit NIS card number by heart. The physical cards are in my suitcase which I haven't touched for years.

BTW yuji, why did you remove the PPP flag from your avatar? I thought you would have kept it until LGE voting day.

I think he is contemplating jumping ship, be careful he can sprain his ankle.

Bai, when you addicted to weed you can jump away from your own self, much less from a party.

Ow Bhaya, I never touched a  cigarette much less weed. I would rather jump into the Atlantic rather than jumping the PPP ship. I might cover my coffin with a PPP flag when I depart this material world. 

I going to ask them to put a PNC flag inside the coffin so I can burn e rass wid me body when I depart. That will bring a lot of comfort to me.

Django posted:

Leonora posted:

Tola posted:

yuji22 posted:

Quote by Tola:

"In the 1960s when photographs were taken in Guyana of everyday activities for fun, little did we realize that we were documenting the lifestyle of a people, whose ancestors came from India. Now Indian museums are interested in displaying these photographs, in specific rooms for different countries. "

You were recording history.

In may ways these who took pictures were documenting the history of a people, because  that lifestyle  did not exist any  more.   

The only photo I have of my father's parents is around 1935 on the land they were granted after working 5 years on the nearby estate. Grandpa was tall, slender, fair, elegant; in the pic he's wearing a suit, tie and hat. They were Brahmins in UP and he came to Guyana when he was a teenager; his wife, from Calcutta, was born in the ship while coming over. I'm working on my family tree, it's very exciting, and I'm using Gaiutra Bahadur's well-documented book as a guide to trace my roots. 

You can do that by getting some documents,a birth certificate of your grandfather,and head to the Guyana Archives.

My next research is finding info on my Grandmother apparently she was born in British Guiana,and Great Grandmother came from India in 1874,I have my grandmother first husband immigrant document,he came from Azamgarh India in 1901.

What passport existed before the Guyana passport ? I was going to make a comment, but it would show my age as 54. 

Also, regarding the Guyana archives. I could not obtain ledger and ship log information [1909 - 1912]  about my mother who was born in 1909. Because I was told the ledgers were still at the registrar's office. But my father born in 1900, was available.

An email address for the archives exists, to find out whether the ledgers/ship's log  are available for your ancestors, before heading to Guyana. Unless you like a 21 year old..................El Dorado.    

Django posted:

seignet posted:

In 1838, Guyana would have Indians after Fiji and Mauritius. To think, all those ppl were Tribes would not be plausible. Just look at the old photographs, see how dem dress.

Not all some may have been recruited,the name listed as caste on my GGF and Family records,is not any that is known.I inquired from some folks there was no answer,they never heard of it.

From what I have read, Hills ppl or Tribal ppl were not Hindus and as such had no caste. They had their own forms of worship and relationships within their tribes.

caribny posted:

yuji22 posted:

Ai carib. Stop your eye pass and lies. I NEVER stated or think that Indos are superior. Bai, you never saw that Ronan was the one denigrating Indos.

God created everyone equally and we are equal in his eyes. No single person or race is superior. 

Na start your lies now.

I hold my fire as I now carry my Idol Marley Avatar. One Love.

So why should blacks be envious of Indians then and this is the rant that we hear frequently from you and the rest of your kin?

Afro Guyanese are very proud of who we are.  Like other blacks throughout the Americas we rebuilt our identities and have evolved into a very resilient people. And like it or not it is this culture that was developed which facilitated the ability for Indians to assimilate into and interact with the rest of Guyana.

Case in point. What language/dialect do most Indians speak?  Answer, not Hindi or Bhojpuri, except in limited situations.  Nor do they sound like Englishmen.  And most don't even speak standard English in most situations.  Go over to Suriname which vernacular do they speak when they want to interact with the larger society,  Srnan or Suriname Hindi?

Yes its this very creole culture developed by blacks throughout the Caribbean which facilitates interactions between the various groups.

So cease with your implication that we don't know who we are or that we must be envious of Indians.

I can tell you this. Whatever you are you aren't an Asian Indian.

On that 3 months journey from India, our ppl developed a culture too. They found ways to communicate with one other considering their varying languages. 

seignet posted:

Django posted:

seignet posted:

In 1838, Guyana would have Indians after Fiji and Mauritius. To think, all those ppl were Tribes would not be plausible. Just look at the old photographs, see how dem dress.

Not all some may have been recruited,the name listed as caste on my GGF and Family records,is not any that is known.I inquired from some folks there was no answer,they never heard of it.

From what I have read, Hills ppl or Tribal ppl were not Hindus and as such had no caste. They had their own forms of worship and relationships within their tribes.

 

You are on to something,

Currently the Aryan and Dravidian Invasion are debunked.

Here is an article from 1981.

click to read more ABORIGINAL GROUPS IN INDIA

" The English called them aborigines, and this concept was readily accepted by the average, educated Indian who traces his own ancestry to the Aryan and Dravidian invaders of the subcontinent and this concept was readily accepted by the average, educated Indian who traces his own ancestry to the Aryan and Dravidian invaders of the subcontinent.

Most Indians consider the tribal communities, which live in isolated and self-contained groups, as wholly distinct from them culturally and ethnically. In fact, the people of India are highly mixed racially, and the aborigines too participated in the process of miscegenation and acculturation.

But when the caste system developed and rigidified, that process slowed down and eventually came to a halt. In the scheme of the caste system the aborigines are considered a distant part of the body politic - not complete outsiders, but certainly on the far fringes - to be treated, however, with sympathetic toleration.

In more recent times there have been three distinct attitudes toward the scheduled tribes. The British government tended to leave them alone, partly because administration of the wild border areas was difficult and unrewarding, and partly because, though bearing "the white man's burden," many of the administrators also held the belief that the "noble savage", was better and happier than they and best left alone."

Sigenet,

Just found a book on google "Notes on the North-Western Provinces of India" 

You can read for free.

Here a little synopsis

"My ancestors  [ not named can be found in book,page 43] a famous tribe sprung from the Cheeros occupied the country before the Rajpoots,they became a lost tribe,it further said in Ghazipore the Rajpoots  were once their slaves,when their masters were drunk at a feast,the Rajpoots fell upon them killing some,enslaving the rest and dividing the country."

Gilbakka posted:

The first batch of Indian immigrants were mostly so-called "hill coolies", ie tribals on the fringe of mainstream society. According to some descriptions, they had no religion --- no Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jain or Hindu. But according to Guyanese Dwarka Nath, the first two immigrants who disembarked the ship in Guyana were named Rama & Khan. Which suggests Hindu & Muslim. Perhaps they were selected to step on land first because they were from the small mainstream section?

The traders did not give a damn about propriety so I doubt they would stage any disembarking for any historical commemorative reasons. 

Here is a summary of a ship's log someone ( maybe Ramond chickory) posted here some years ago.

Analysis of sample data taken from two ships’ logs of the Indentured records revealed the following snapshots of some of the individuals who boarded the ships bound for Guyana. Upon registration, the Indentured laborers were assigned two identification numbers – (1) a depot number; and (2) a number in the ship’s register.

a) SS Ganges: sailed from Calcutta in the latter half of 1909
The records for twenty-nine (29) laborers were extracted from this log. Of these 29 individuals – 21 were males and eight (8) females, including one husband and wife (Autar – age 19; and Banyadi – age 18; depot numbers 1159 and 1158 respectively) and a married female - the record of her husband was not extracted, (the male/female ratio was close to 3:1). Among this group, there were six (6) children, 4 boys and 2 girls, ages range from one (1) to nine (9) years old. Of the 23 adults, the majority were in their early 20s – 13 of whom were between the ages of 20 to 24 years old; three were in their late 20s (i.e., 26; 27 and 28); and four were teenagers -- two 18-years old and two 19 years old. Also, almost all of these adults were very short, with only five of them reaching between the height of 5’ 6½” to 5’ 9½” and the other 18 reaching from 4’ 11” to 5’ 5”.

The majority in this sample group were Muslims, totaling eight (8) one of whom was a Pathan - Abdulla Khan, age 21, depot number 889, from Allahabad. There were four Ahirs (herders); three chamars; one Thakur (landowner); one Brahmin and a mix from these other castes – Dom, Jat, Kachhi, Kewat, Kahar, Koiri, Kunbi and Musahar. (NOTE: the musahars were field laborers whose wages were paid in cash or in kind according to the traditional custom in the villages – in other words one can conclude that the Indians by nature of the work in their new “homeland” were musahars in the true meaning of the word). With the exception of five of the six kids all of the adults suffered from scars on various parts of the body (the questions that first came to my mind when I noticed this trend was -- is this an indication of some ritual of passage into adulthood or were these as a result of “tribal” warfare?).

Finally, these 29 individuals came from the following villages -- 7 from Cawnpur; 5 from Gorakhpur; 3 from Gonda; 2 from Delhi; 2 from Basti and one each from – Agra, Alipur, Bahraich, Barabanki, Benares, Bitapur, Fyzabad, Jaipur, Kheri and Lucknow.

b) The Bruce: sailed from Calcutta in the latter half of 1889
In this case, thirty-one (31) names were culled from The Bruce’s log. Of these records, 23 were males and eight (8) were females (the male/female ratio was close to 4:1). In this group, there were two children, both female ages two and 10. Again only two persons were married - one male (Lilla, age 22, height 5’ 2”, wife’s name Chamni, Caste Kumhar, from the district of Gaya, depot number 3271, number 24 in ship’s register); and one female (Kunti, age 30, height 4’ 10½”, husband’s name Mangru, Caste Kurmi, from the district of Basti, depot number 3386, number 713 in ship’s register). The records for their wife and husband respectively, were not extracted. In this group of 29 adults - five were 18 years old; seventeen were in their early 20s; three in their late 20s; and four were 30 years old. The height for four of the adults were not stated, and the height for the other 25 adults range from 4’ 5” to 5’ 7½” the majority of them on the shorter side.

The caste for two persons were not recorded - that of Sewtohul, age 30 from the district of Shahabad, depot number 3806, number 7 in ship’s register; and Shiwdar, age 20 from the district of Barabani and whose next of kin was stated as Ahmad Hossain (which is a Muslim name and does not mesh with Shiwdar this is probably a case of a child from one of the Hindu caste who was raised in a Muslim household). Of the remaining laborers, four were Muslims, four were Kurmi, three were Koiri, three were Ahir; three were Thakur; two were Mali, and the rest were from the following castes - Gararee, Kachhi, Karan, Khandoo, Kumhar, Kunbi, Lodha, Mallah, Musahar, and Pasee. Just like the laborers on the SS Ganges, 21 of the adults on The Bruce also displayed scars on various parts of their body (back, palm, belly, elbow, forehead, arm, calf, cheek, eye, finger, foot, knee, shoulder, thigh, lip, shin, and chest). Also, six of the adults displayed signs of having suffered from either smallpox or chicken pox.

NOTE: The weight of the laborers were not stated in either of the ships’ log. From some of the old pictures of the Indentures they were all small built and I can picture them toiling in the hot sun cutting sugarcane … no easy task for such “weak” people according to some people’s definition.

Django posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Django posted:

alena06 posted:

Anyone tried the Ancestry DNA thingie? 😀 My daughter did it and it was right on the money.

Found mines via Immigrants Records from the Guyana Archives,could not figure out the caste,found it today.

Django,

These pictures look like members of the Australian aborigines or the New Zealand Maori people.

Why are they referred to as aboriginal? Is this a European construct like the names they attributed to the "scheduled caste" of Indian.?

Do you know if any of the indentured Indians were referred to as aboriginals in the immigration records in Guyana?

On my ancestors Immigrants records,the name listed as Caste is not of a known type,my GGF was born in 1836.

I have been trying to figure this out for a while,i tried google and gave up,today i cracked it.I can declare it,too much haters on this site,so i will refrain from doing so.

Why do you worry about what others say? 99 percent of us are from dalit dom meaning we our fore parents were castless. They were referenced by work category or jats. 

yuji22 posted:

@ Gil

Thanks for the info. 

I traced back and visited my ancestors and man, I come from a group of hard core Brahmanas. My ancestors were from what is now called Haryana and they chanted mantras they same unique way that my family does. I even conducted DNA tests to confirm our ancestry. 

This smashed the BS theory that Brahmanas were so called Boat Brahmanas. I do not disagree that it may be true in most cases but I can confirm that I come from a group of Hard Core and very tough Brahmanas.

You needed to also substantiate pedigree confirmation by doing an IQ test. Around seventy and you would solidly  certify the authenticity of ancestral heritage

yuji22 posted:

skeldon_man posted:

yuji22 posted:

Listen Antie Ronan,

Too bad for you if you can’t trace your ancestry. 

He is from the Mandinka Warrior Tribe, the same place as Kunta Kinte.

That clown wants to rain on other people’s parade. He is envious that Indos are proud of and are tracing back their ancestry. 

Looks like he is stuck hence his anger. 

dummy...he is laughing at your pretentiousness. There is nothing to envy at at what is today a perfunctory task as DNA is now 99 dollars a hit. 

seignet posted:

D2 posted:

Django posted:

Found out my Great Great Maternal Grandparents were an Aboriginal Tribe of India.

Most Guyanese are tribals...from more than 20 tribes

So what happened to the Bhojpuries, Bengalies and Biharies-you consider them to be tribes? Those were considered to be people from the plains.

The Dhangurs were hills people, perhaps considered as Tribals. Many went to Assam and Ceylon to pick tea, some to Mauritius. By time the of British Guiana, the Dhangurs were not recruitable. 

However, famines drove those of the plains to Calcutta, from where they sought the way out.

India consider all accross the  middle of the country tribal regions. Technically, all of us are tribals because the word only has meaning when assigned to people of a historical region sharing a cultural identity. If you can name a group you most likely have a tribe. Bhojpuries is an umbrella term for tribal speaking the same dialect. THe same with the other terms you used. 

Danghurs are a tribal people sent the Mauritius. Gladstone correspondence has a letter mentioning them as the kinds of people that they want in Guyana. As he said, without religion, culture or wants beyond daily desired for eating and sleeping and procreating. Actually he said proper people to be enslaved.

yuji22 posted:

seignet posted:

D2 posted:

Django posted:

Found out my Great Great Maternal Grandparents were an Aboriginal Tribe of India.

Most Guyanese are tribals...from more than 20 tribes

So what happened to the Bhojpuries, Bengalies and Biharies-you consider them to be tribes? Those were considered to be people from the plains.

The Dhangurs were hills people, perhaps considered as Tribals. Many went to Assam and Ceylon to pick tea, some to Mauritius. By time the of British Guiana, the Dhangurs were not recruitable. 

However, famines drove those of the plains to Calcutta, from where they sought the way out.

D2 does speak from his rear sometimes.

forgiven, you had nothing to contribute as usual...that baseline IQ of 70 always gets in the way of your good sense. 

yuji22 posted:

Ai carib. Stop your eye pass and lies. I NEVER stated or think that Indos are superior. Bai, you never saw that Ronan was the one denigrating Indos.

God created everyone equally and we are equal in his eyes. No single person or race is superior. 

Na start your lies now.

I hold my fire as I now carry my Idol Marley Avatar. One Love.

Five Pinocchioes per sentence above. Beating your idol trump at his game.

caribny posted:

yuji22 posted:

Ai carib. Stop your eye pass and lies. I NEVER stated or think that Indos are superior. Bai, you never saw that Ronan was the one denigrating Indos.

God created everyone equally and we are equal in his eyes. No single person or race is superior. 

Na start your lies now.

I hold my fire as I now carry my Idol Marley Avatar. One Love.

So why should blacks be envious of Indians then and this is the rant that we hear frequently from you and the rest of your kin?

Afro Guyanese are very proud of who we are.  Like other blacks throughout the Americas we rebuilt our identities and have evolved into a very resilient people. And like it or not it is this culture that was developed which facilitated the ability for Indians to assimilate into and interact with the rest of Guyana.

Case in point. What language/dialect do most Indians speak?  Answer, not Hindi or Bhojpuri, except in limited situations.  Nor do they sound like Englishmen.  And most don't even speak standard English in most situations.  Go over to Suriname which vernacular do they speak when they want to interact with the larger society,  Srnan or Suriname Hindi?

Yes its this very creole culture developed by blacks throughout the Caribbean which facilitates interactions between the various groups.

So cease with your implication that we don't know who we are or that we must be envious of Indians.

I can tell you this. Whatever you are you aren't an Asian Indian.

Cultural formation is not a consequence of complete annihilation of one culture for another. Rather, the two ( or more) progenitor cultures are the one extinguished as what is integral to communication and interaction of the group emerges from the interstices of their convergence. The process is called hybridization. 

Creolization is natural. It is not inherited or given. It is created by children and maintained buy children. Adults do not create language. Language change occurs in the young as they create new words, displaced consonants or consciously or unconsciously participate in vowel drift.  Africans do not own creole culture. They happen to need a creole first given they were the first to need a communication medium in the new world. 

D2 posted:

 

Why do you worry about what others say? 99 percent of us are from dalit dom meaning we our fore parents were castless. They were referenced by work category or jats. 

That's modern day categorization.

You mentioned earlier about tribes,earlier the people were all tribal.The Aborigines were the masters,the Bhur were the majority from Northern India to Bengal,unfortunately they were over taken by the Rajpoots and Brahmins,they became a lost tribe.Their existence mentioned in the Rig Veda.

Further reading

Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland

https://play.google.com/books/...hl=en&pg=GBS.PP7

My great grandfather L. Singh was 25 years old when he embarked the "Newcastle" in 1881. His Certificate of Immigration says "Chutree" as caste. The district he hailed from was located in western Uttar Pradesh but after India's independence the State borders were redrawn and that district now lies in Rajahstan.

Rajpoots/Rajputs were chatrees/Kshatriyas, the soldiery caste. Looking at those pictures in Django's links, showing dem chatree bhai wid round shield & fighting stick, dhoti & skinny legs, I got mixed feelings, pride mixed with pity.

Gilbakka posted:

My great grandfather L. Singh was 25 years old when he embarked the "Newcastle" in 1881. His Certificate of Immigration says "Chutree" as caste. The district he hailed from was located in western Uttar Pradesh but after India's independence the State borders were redrawn and that district now lies in Rajahstan.

Rajpoots/Rajputs were chatrees/Kshatriyas, the soldiery caste. Looking at those pictures in Django's links, showing dem chatree bhai wid round shield & fighting stick, dhoti & skinny legs, I got mixed feelings, pride mixed with pity.

My father is Kshatriya,i man mixed t@rass,Aboriginal + my grandmother said to be Sudhra and the unkown of my Great Grand mother.

My next project is to find the records of my Grandmother and Great Grandmother.One half of my seconds cousins lineage is a Kshatriya from Rajahstan.

Django posted:

D2 posted:

 

Why do you worry about what others say? 99 percent of us are from dalit dom meaning we our fore parents were castless. They were referenced by work category or jats. 

That's modern day categorization.

You mentioned earlier about tribes,earlier the people were all tribal.The Aborigines were the masters,the Bhur were the majority from Northern India to Bengal,unfortunately they were over taken by the Rajpoots and Brahmins,they became a lost tribe.Their existence mentioned in the Rig Veda.

Further reading

Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland

https://play.google.com/books/...hl=en&pg=GBS.PP7

It is the term in general use since every other term came with pejoratives that acknowledge arbitrary terminology reflecting castlessness.  

Django posted:

Gilbakka posted:

My great grandfather L. Singh was 25 years old when he embarked the "Newcastle" in 1881. His Certificate of Immigration says "Chutree" as caste. The district he hailed from was located in western Uttar Pradesh but after India's independence the State borders were redrawn and that district now lies in Rajahstan.

Rajpoots/Rajputs were chatrees/Kshatriyas, the soldiery caste. Looking at those pictures in Django's links, showing dem chatree bhai wid round shield & fighting stick, dhoti & skinny legs, I got mixed feelings, pride mixed with pity.

My father is Kshatriya,i man mixed t@rass,Aboriginal + my grandmother said to be Sudhra and the unkown of my Great Grand mother.

My next project is to find the records of my Grandmother and Great Grandmother.One half of my seconds cousins lineage is a Kshatriya from Rajahstan.

Remember regressing from parents to grand parents is a geometric progression. Each of us have four grand parents, sixteen great grand parents, thirty two....sixty for....one hundred and 26 and so on. Most tribal societies were matrilenial but we look to grand father line for identity per the British.  Who we are is mainly about ourselves at the moment. It ceases to make sense after about 3 generations to even reconstitute anything from which to assign a progenitor culture since cultures are always in flux. 

Tola posted:

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What passport existed before the Guyana passport ?

 

A "subject of the British Empire-British Guiana" passport.

seignet posted:

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On that 3 months journey from India, our ppl developed a culture too. They found ways to communicate with one other considering their varying languages. 

Exactly.  Now you understand that when they reached BG they had even more cultural adjustments to make, as they encountered people who were even more radically different.

An Indo Caribbean person is a creature of the Caribbean, and those who deny this look stupid.

D2 posted:

 

Cultural formation is not a consequence of complete annihilation of one culture for another. Rather, the two ( or more) progenitor cultures are the one extinguished as what is integral to communication and interaction of the group emerges from the interstices of their convergence. The process is called hybridization. 

Creolization is natural. It is not inherited or given. It is created by children and maintained buy children. Adults do not create language. Language change occurs in the young as they create new words, displaced consonants or consciously or unconsciously participate in vowel drift.  Africans do not own creole culture. They happen to need a creole first given they were the first to need a communication medium in the new world. 

Did I say that cultural formation necessitated complete annihilation.  There is much within Afro Caribbean creole cultures that is African, even as brutal attempts were made to eradicate all such influences, so clearly subsequent groups, which didn't undergo this brutality wouldn't have seen complete cultural eradication.

The bottom line in all of this is that Indo Caribbean people live on a cultural continuum.  Their culture isn't monolithic, influenced as it is by their geographic location, religion, family structure and the degree to which they interact with other ethnic groups. While there is much within the Indo Caribbean that remains of India when they meet an Asian Indian BOTH groups have to make adjustments to deal with the other.

In addition your average Guyanese moves along a variety of spaces in this cultural continuum depending on the circumstances.  Creolese (in its myriad varieties) is spoken in certain contexts and standard (Caribbean) English in others.    An Indian will operate differently in an environment where there are peoples of different ethnicities than they would at a family gathering.  An African, who lives in an Indian village will have a broader cultural repertoire than one living in an African dominated setting.  And of course the cultural differences WITHIN ethnic groups that exist based on social status are very evident.

The point is that our colonial heritage and the need for various ethnic groups to find their space in it has led to a very fluid range of cultural continuums.  This is what creolization is all about.   This is in fact why the creole cultureS (note plural) of Guyana are different even from Trinidad, with its similar ethnic diversity.

And like it or not the basis of Caribbean creole culture does lie in that culture that the enslaved Africans had to create to make sense of their surroundings.  That became the basis for other groups to build around.  They made changes as they incorporated their experiences.  Some particular to that group, and others adopted by all the ethnic groups at large. 

The European colonizer attempted to shape their colonies in their own image.  That they couldn't was because even they had to adjust to the fact that within their spaces existed the enslaved African.  So yes they too fell under the creolization spell even though this often led to their stigmatization by those visiting from Europe.

There is a reason why the creole cultures of the Caribbean resemble those of Cabo Verde, Mauritius, Reunion and the Seychelles and NOT of Fiji or Hawaii.  The latter don't have that enslaved African element so their creole cultures moved in a different direction.

Lower-income Guyanese now have a low-cost chance to visit India and connect with their roots:

https://www.stabroeknews.com/2...-connect-with-roots/

Gilbakka posted:

Lower-income Guyanese now have a low-cost chance to visit India and connect with their roots:

https://www.stabroeknews.com/2...-connect-with-roots/

I was never prepared to feel how I felt entering my father’s ancestral village.  It was like seeing his generations looking at me from beyond the grave.