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ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE (AP) — Pope Francis said Thursday there are limits to freedom of speech, especially when it insults or ridicules someone's faith.

Francis spoke about the Paris terror attacks while en route to the Philippines, defending free speech as not only a fundamental human right but a duty to speak one's mind for the sake of the common good.

But he said there were limits.

By way of example, he referred to Alberto Gasparri, who organizes papal trips and was standing by his side aboard the papal plane.

"If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch," Francis said half-jokingly, throwing a mock punch his way. "It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

His pretend punch aside, Francis by no means said the violent attack on Charlie Hebdo was justified. Quite the opposite: He said such horrific violence in God's name couldn't be justified and was an "aberration." But he said a reaction of some sort was to be expected.

Many people around the world have defended the right of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo to publish inflammatory cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed in the wake of the massacre by Islamic extremists at its Paris offices and subsequent attack on a kosher supermarket in which three gunmen killed 17 people.
Others, though, have noted that in virtually all societies, freedom of speech has its limits, from laws against Holocaust denial to racially motivated hate speech.

Recently the Vatican and four prominent French imams issued a joint declaration that, while denouncing the Paris attacks, urged the media to treat religions with respect.
Francis, who has called on Muslim leaders in particular to speak out against Islamic extremism, went a step further Thursday when asked by a French journalist about whether there were limits when freedom of expression meets freedom of religion.

"There are so many people who speak badly about religions or other religions, who make fun of them, who make a game out of the religions of others," he said. "They are provocateurs. And what happens to them is what would happen to Dr. Gasparri if he says a curse word against my mother. There is a limit."

In the wake of the Paris attacks, the Vatican has sought to downplay reports that it is a potential target for Islamic extremists, saying it is being vigilant but has received no specific threat.

Francis said he was concerned primarily for the safety of the faithful who come to see him in droves, and said he had spoken to Vatican security officials who are taking "prudent and secure measures."

"I am worried, but you know I have a defect: a good dose of carelessness. I'm careless about these things," he said. But he admitted that in his prayers, he had asked that if something were to happen to him that "it doesn't hurt, because I'm not very courageous when it comes to pain. I'm very timid."

He added, "I'm in God's hands."

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Originally Posted by Chief:
Originally Posted by Nehru:

The Pope is correct and the Publishing of that Cartoon of Muhammad again border on disrespect.  What will that gain??/

Thank you, thank you and thank you!!!

No need to thank me.  I think it is basic common sense. If everyone start disrespecting each other Religion then certainly we will live in a very divided and angry World.

Nehru

America is a nation of laws. We do not follow the Pope, the Ayatollah or rulings made by any religion. It is not against the law for comedians, cartoonists, movies or anyone in general to make fun of religion. However, it is against the law in the US and many other secular nations to punch someone in the nose, slap them or kick them. In the US, it is also a federal offense to threaten anyone with physical violence via the internet.

Mars
FRANCE ARRESTS A COMEDIAN FOR HIS FACEBOOK COMMENTS, SHOWING THE SHAM OF THE WEST’S “FREE SPEECH” CELEBRATION

BY GLENN GREENWALD
Forty-eight hours after hosting a massive march under the banner of free expression, France opened a criminal investigation of a controversial French comedian for a Facebook post he wrote about the Charlie Hebdo attack, and then this morning, arrested him for that post on charges of “defending terrorism.” The comedian, DieudonnÃĐ (above), previously sought elective office in France on what he called an “anti-Zionist” platform, has had his show banned by numerous government officials in cities throughout France, and has been criminally prosecuted several times before for expressing ideas banned in that country.

The apparently criminal viewpoint he posted on Facebook declared: â€œTonight, as far as I’m concerned, I feel like Charlie Coulibaly.” Investigators concluded that this was intended to mock the “Je Suis Charlie” slogan and express support for the perpetrator of the Paris supermarket killings (whose last name was “Coulibaly&rdquo. Expressing that opinion is evidently a crime in the Republic of LibertÃĐ, which prides itself on a line of 20th Century intellectuals – from Sartre and Genet to Foucault and Derrida – whose hallmark was leaving no orthodoxy or convention unmolested, no matter how sacred.

Since that glorious “free speech” march, France has reportedly opened 54 criminal cases for “condoning terrorism.” AP reported this morning that “France ordered prosecutors around the country to crack down on hate speech, anti-Semitism and glorifying terrorism.”

As pernicious as this arrest and related 
As pernicious as this arrest and related “crackdown” on some speech obviously is, it provides a critical value: namely, it underscores the utter scam that was this week’s celebration of free speech in the west. The day before the Charlie Hebdo attack, I coincidentally documented the multiple cases in the west – including in the U.S. – where Muslims have been prosecuted and even imprisoned for their political speech. Vanishingly few of this week’s bold free expression mavens have ever uttered a peep of protest about any of those cases – either before the Charlie Hebdo attack or since. That’s because “free speech,” in the hands of many westerners, actually means: it is vital that the ideas I like be protected, and the right to offend groups I dislike be cherished; anything else is fair game.

It is certainly true that many of DieudonnÃĐ’s views and statements are noxious, although he and his supporters insist that they are “satire” and all in good humor. In that regard, the controversy they provoke is similar to the now-much-beloved Charlie Hebdo cartoons (one French leftist insists the cartoonists were mocking rather than adopting racism and bigotry, but Olivier Cyran, a former writer at the magazine who resigned in 2001, wrote a powerful 2013 letter with ample documentation condemning Charlie Hebdo for descending in the post-9/11 era into full-scale, obsessive anti-Muslim bigotry).

Despite the obvious threat to free speech posed by this arrest, it is inconceivable that any mainstream western media figures would start tweeting “#JeSuisDieudonnÃĐ” or would upload photographs of themselves performing his ugly Nazi-evoking arm gesture in “solidarity” with his free speech rights. That’s true even if he were murdered for his ideas rather than “merely” arrested and prosecuted for them. That’s because last week’s celebration of the Hebdo cartoonists (well beyond mourning their horrifically unjust murders) was at least as much about approval for their anti-Muslim messages as it was about the free speech rights that were invoked in their support - at least as much.

The vast bulk of the stirring “free speech” tributes over the last week have been little more than an attempt to protect and venerate speech that degrades disfavored groups while rendering off-limits speech that does the same to favored groups, all deceitfully masquerading as lofty principles of liberty. In response to myarticle containing anti-Jewish cartoons on Monday - which I posted to demonstrate the utter selectivity and inauthenticity of this newfound adoration of offensive speech - I was subjected to endless contortions justifying why anti-Muslim speech is perfectly great and noble while anti-Jewish speech is hideously offensive and evil (the most frequently invokeddistinction – “Jews are a race/ethnicity while Muslims aren’t” – would come as a huge surprise to the world’s Asian, black, Latino and white Jews, as well as to those who identify as “Muslim” as part of their cultural identity even though they don’t pray five times a day). As always: it’s free speech if it involves ideas I like or attacks groups I dislike, but it’s something different when I’m the one who is offended.
Kari

Now that the dust has settled on this matter, I wish to comment that if Muslims do not want to have their Prophet's pictures published since it is insulting to their faith, then it must be respected.

 

It is also important to note that those who commit acts of terrorism in the name of Islam are animals.

 

There has to be some middle ground and we might be slowly headed in that direction by constructive dialogue.

FM
Originally Posted by Mars:

America is a nation of laws. We do not follow the Pope, the Ayatollah or rulings made by any religion. It is not against the law for comedians, cartoonists, movies or anyone in general to make fun of religion. However, it is against the law in the US and many other secular nations to punch someone in the nose, slap them or kick them. In the US, it is also a federal offense to threaten anyone with physical violence via the internet.

There is nothing wrong with what you've written Mars and yes those murderers acting in the name of a religion and all those who support them must be eradicated, but you have not addressed the dichotomy of anti-semitism being seen as hate speech with jail consequences, while provocative anti-Islam is free speech to be celebrated. There are statutes on anti-semitism in the New York State (I don't know about federal statutes).

 

So please understand that repeating the same thing we all understand ad nauseum does not add to the discussion. Two new items were posted in this thread - the Pope's comments on being a provocateur and France arresting a comedian for anti-semtism satire. I would suggest you watch Jon Stewart's show last night where he juxtapose President Hollan extolling the free speech in the Republic while the next day arresting someone for the same free speech he defended. That should get your attention, don't you think?

Kari
Originally Posted by Kari:
Originally Posted by Mars:

America is a nation of laws. We do not follow the Pope, the Ayatollah or rulings made by any religion. It is not against the law for comedians, cartoonists, movies or anyone in general to make fun of religion. However, it is against the law in the US and many other secular nations to punch someone in the nose, slap them or kick them. In the US, it is also a federal offense to threaten anyone with physical violence via the internet.

There is nothing wrong with what you've written Mars and yes those murderers acting in the name of a religion and all those who support them must be eradicated, but you have not addressed the dichotomy of anti-semitism being seen as hate speech with jail consequences, while provocative anti-Islam is free speech to be celebrated. There are statutes on anti-semitism in the New York State (I don't know about federal statutes).

 

So please understand that repeating the same thing we all understand ad nauseum does not add to the discussion. Two new items were posted in this thread - the Pope's comments on being a provocateur and France arresting a comedian for anti-semtism satire. I would suggest you watch Jon Stewart's show last night where he juxtapose President Hollan extolling the free speech in the Republic while the next day arresting someone for the same free speech he defended. That should get your attention, don't you think?

I'm just pointing out that the Pope's remarks are simply fluff and not legally binding. I should emphasize that he's completely wrong to suggest that you should react in a violent way if someone insults your religion. First of all, it's totally against the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus would turn the other cheek. Additionally, it's against the law and you are likely to be arrested for punching someone in the nose. He's trying to calm the tensions on all sides in an effort to promote peace and hopefully deter the Muslim world from rising up in a large scale like they did when the cartoons were first published. However, he's going about it the wrong way by suggesting a violent retaliation. The Pope also has to side with religion or he will in effect be inviting all and sundry to make a mockery of the Catholic Church. They do anyway and I don't think that his statement will change anything. Charlie Hebdo has published many anti Catholic cartoons in the past and I doubt whether they will stop anytime soon. I won't be surprised if the Pope is on one of their upcoming covers. He's giving them new material and deserves to be there with his remarks today which were aimed against them. 

 

Introducing censorship of satirists, comedians, movie producers, newspapers is going down a steep slope. I would not like to see that in America for where would you start to draw the line? How do you determine what is hate speech and what is comedy/satire? It would not survive constitutional challenges in the US. There are not many anti-Semitic laws in America as compared to Europe. For example, you can deny the Holocaust as much as you want in America but it is not allowed in some European countries. A load of crock if you asked me. If someone is stupid enough to proclaim that the Holocaust never happened then he has a right to make an idiot of himself. The laws which address anti-Semitism in America are usually hate crime laws which protect all religions. They have to be anti-Semitic as well as committing another crime. Like defacing a synagogue with swastikas. You would be guilty of defacing the building and added to that you are doing it because you hate Jews so they would likely increase the penalty than if you just left a blob of paint on the building. The same applies if someone were to leave a bloody pig's head on the steps of a mosque. You are defacing the mosque plus acting out your hatred of Islam and you would likely be punished more severely because a hate crime was committed. 

 

The French arresting the comedian for condoning terrorism is downright hypocrisy. There is no way else for me to describe it and I do not support it one bit or have any excuses for it. The man is a comedian in the same vein as Charlie Hebdo is a satirist magazine. To charge him with condoning terrorism because he stated that he feels like Charlie Coulibaly is simply ludicrous. They are simply overreacting because the country is in a general state of heightened alert. The fact that he's been in trouble with the law many times does not help but he's a comedian so he should be given the same leeway as Charlie Hebdo. 

Mars

Fullahman saving Jews? Je suis Mali?

 

 

 

Paris (AFP) - A Malian described as a "hero" after he helped hostages at a Jewish supermarket hide during last week's Paris attacks will be awarded French nationality Tuesday, Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said.

Lassana Bathily, who has lived in France since 2006 and applied for French nationality in July of last year, was praised for his "bravery" in a statement by Cazeneuve, which also said the 24-year-old Malian's naturalisation will be granted at a ceremony on Tuesday.

As the hostage-taking siege by jihadist Amedy Coulibaly began January 9, Bathily -- an employee at the kosher store in eastern Paris -- ushered a group of trapped customers into a cold storage room, shut off the refrigeration system, and closed the terrified people inside for protection.

"I heard shots and I saw my colleagues and clients running down," Bathily recalled later. "I told them 'Come, come,' (and) got them into the freezer."

Bathily proposed helping the hiding clients escape the supermarket through its delivery lift. But when no one wanted to take that risk, Bathily fled alone, flagged down the police, and provided them information on the layout of the store that was vital to the assault that ended the siege.

A practising Muslim whose heroism drew wide praise -- and 220,000 signatures on an online petition calling for his naturalisation -- Bathily has said his actions were those that any human should take for others facing threats from a common enemy.

"We're brothers. It's not a question of Jews, Christians or Muslims," he told French news channel BFMTV. "We're all in the same boat, and we have to help one another to get out of this crisis."

FM

:.....deter the Muslim world from rising up in a large scale like they did when the cartoons were first published."

 

??????? I did not see 1.7 billion Muslims on a large scale rising up anytime in my lifetime.

 

"......he will in effect be inviting all and sundry to make a mockery of the Catholic Church. They do anyway"

 

I do not know that all and sundry mock the Catholic Church. Do you?

 

"Introducing censorship of satirists, comedians, movie producers, newspapers is going down a steep slope."

 

There are anti-semitism laws on the books of several countries, France included. George Bush signed into law an Act that would monitor countries around the world for anti-semitism. Some countries have banned publishing of the Swastika.

 

There is a good article in the latest edition of the New Yorker Magazine (Jan 19, 2015) that provides a background on how France is almost alone with vicious satirical magazines dating back to the 19th Century - a guerrilla war between republicans and the Church and Monarchy - and Charlie Hebdo is almost alone in this practice.

Kari
Originally Posted by Chameli:
Originally Posted by Nehru:

The Pope is correct and the Publishing of that Cartoon of Muhammad again border on disrespect.  What will that gain??/

with this i do agree...i commented from day one that this type of disrespect is abhorrent to the max...it is instigating and unnecessary 

The Catholic Church gave Spain and Portugal the right to enslave. The church also claimed the Native People were heathens. What does the Pope knows?

 

He is part of a conclave of Master Sinners.

 

Muslims have been instigators in the mosques in the west for decades now. 

S
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by Chameli:
Originally Posted by Nehru:

The Pope is correct and the Publishing of that Cartoon of Muhammad again border on disrespect.  What will that gain??/

with this i do agree...i commented from day one that this type of disrespect is abhorrent to the max...it is instigating and unnecessary 

The Catholic Church gave Spain and Portugal the right to enslave. The church also claimed the Native People were heathens. What does the Pope knows?

 

He is part of a conclave of Master Sinners.

 

Muslims have been instigators in the mosques in the west for decades now. 

It would be nice for you to provide the statistics of the number of mosques in the West and how many have Imaams and followers who "instigate". We would then hold you up to be a paragon of truth.

Kari
Originally Posted by Kari:

:.....deter the Muslim world from rising up in a large scale like they did when the cartoons were first published."

 

??????? I did not see 1.7 billion Muslims on a large scale rising up anytime in my lifetime.

 

"......he will in effect be inviting all and sundry to make a mockery of the Catholic Church. They do anyway"

 

I do not know that all and sundry mock the Catholic Church. Do you?

 

"Introducing censorship of satirists, comedians, movie producers, newspapers is going down a steep slope."

 

There are anti-semitism laws on the books of several countries, France included. George Bush signed into law an Act that would monitor countries around the world for anti-semitism. Some countries have banned publishing of the Swastika.

 

There is a good article in the latest edition of the New Yorker Magazine (Jan 19, 2015) that provides a background on how France is almost alone with vicious satirical magazines dating back to the 19th Century - a guerrilla war between republicans and the Church and Monarchy - and Charlie Hebdo is almost alone in this practice.

I did not say that each and every one of 1.7 billion Muslims rose up against the publication of the cartoons. However, there was a large response to it. There were widespread protests which lasted for about a month. An estimated 200 deaths worldwide were attributed to the protests against the cartoons (NY Times). Many Western embassies around the world were attacked. Many Christian churches were attacked. Death threats were made against the cartoonists and publishers from newspapers which carried the cartoons. Cyber attacks on the websites of newspapers which carried the cartoons. A consumer boycott against Danish goods was organized in several Middle Eastern Countries. If you don't think that this is a large scale response for the publishing of cartoons, then it lends to the mentality of the people who attacked Charlie Hebdo a few days ago.

 

Oh, let's just be picky now. I used all and sundry in a sarcastic manner. I do not literally mean that every single person in the world mocks the Catholic Church. It would be rather silly to think that every inhabitant of the planet mocks the Catholic Church, wouldn't it? They have their share of detractors, some deservedly so and I don't see any violent response that would compare to what we see being done by some Muslims.

 

When I speak about introducing censorship of satirists, comedians, etc., I am speaking about America. We do not have those laws here and I don't think they will be introduced here anytime soon. I do not care for what they do to counter anti-Semitism in Europe and that's why I choose to live in the US. This is obviously not the only reason I'm here so let me spell it out before you go picky again. You can tattoo a swastika on your forehead here if you please to do it a la Charles Manson. Europe has overreacted with anti-Semitic laws to counteract the hideous treatment of Jews during WWII. I can understand why they did it but I don't personally support it. Like I said before, if you want to deny the Holocaust, then you should be allowed to make a fool of yourself without anyone being offended. The Anti-Semitic Act which Bush signed into law does not provide any punishment for anti-Semitic behavior. It is merely a monitoring tool to track anti-Semitic behavior worldwide. The laws which punish anti-Semitic behavior here are hate crime laws which would punish crimes against any religion, not Jews only.

Mars
Last edited by Mars

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