Bibi Haniffa posted:

BGMAN posted:

The PPP Central Committee is democratically elected by delegates representing the different regions. However,this can be improved by allowing all members of the PPP to vote for the Leadership of the party by a secret ballot in each region. Any member should be allowed to run for office. The Central Committee electing the Leader should be abolished. It is outdated.

The PNC also is lacking of a democratic process. It is very difficult to challenge the perceived leadership of the party. There is a lot of coercion.

The political parties in Guyana say they are democratic, but they do not walk the talk. The members of all political parties must demand change in their respective parties. When this occurs, local and national elections would be democratic and Guyanese would respect the wishes of the majority.

Democracy must start at the grassroots. No to dictatorship and long live democracy.

Any member of the Guyanese public can run for office.  How do you think we ended up with the AFC and all these third forces over the years?  The problem with ANY member is that many of them who see themselves as Presidential material are actually inexperienced, or lacking in the basic qualities of a good leader.

The PPP Central Committee could be restructured to include a wider cross section of those with the proper knowledge and credibility to choose the Party Leader.  How can you do this with the current Constitution? You playing stupid eh.

But the PPP leadership is the least of Guyana's political problems right now. The country is in a crisis and the current leadership needs to be held accountable.  The constitution, separation of powers, and GECOM as the machinery that ensures a fair democratic process should be functioning to its best capacity to move the country forward.

Focus!

Drugb posted:

antabanta posted:

Drugb posted:

Its funny how a pnc supporter raising threads about who and how the PPP should elect their candidates. This jackass should worry about his own party. 

You're saying that supporters should not be concerned about the general welfare of Guyana but only their party?

Read my comments again. A pnc soupie raising threads about PPP leadership selection process is suspect. 

why should any concerned person asking questions be suspect? Are you saying the PPP's activities are above question? What would be really suspect is you asking questions of the PPP's actions. Because that is unimaginable.

Maybe they should go all out and have all Guyanese voters select who should be the leaders of every party. That should be most acceptable to Sean Ori.

In Canadian politics, a leadership convention is held by a political party when the party needs to choose a leader due to a vacancy or a challenge to the incumbent leader.

In Canada, the leader of a party generally remains that party's de facto candidate for Prime Minister until such time as he or she dies, resigns or is dismissed by the party. In the New Democratic Party and some of its provincial branches, the position of party leader was treated as all other positions on the party's executive committee, and open for election at party conventions generally held every two years, although incumbent leaders rarely face more than token opposition.

Read More Here:

How is the PPP Central Committee similar to or different than the Leadership Convention in Canada?

ksazma posted:

How is the PPP Central Committee similar to or different than the Leadership Convention in Canada?

Guyana has become a fourth world country (from the third world). No similarities.

How many members of the AFC elected Trottman as its leader? Was it a voting by all its members or regional representatives?

The braying about selection process is misguided. The people have a voice in the selection of the candidate despite what some are claiming. They elect the delegates who in turn express the will of their constituents in the selection process. The similar process in the US where congress express the will of their constituents as they vote in congress. 

antabanta posted:

why should any concerned person asking questions be suspect? Are you saying the PPP's activities are above question? What would be really suspect is you asking questions of the PPP's actions. Because that is unimaginable.

Lilmohan is a known and confessed supporter of the pnc/afc, a party that stand to gain if the wrong leader of the ppp is elected. The selection of the PPP leadership should be the concern of the PPP supporters, not pnc/afc soupies looking to stir up controversy for political gain. In fact your premise that the selection process is undemocratic is seriously flawed as those selecting the leadership are merely exercising the will of their constituents who elected them at the polls.  If the constituents don't like the way they vote then they have the recourse of firing them in the electoral process. 

America touts itself as one of the most democratic nation. However, in the last national elections for president, Clinton got the most votes and Trump got the most electoral votes. Obviously, it is the electoral votes that count not the total votes. 

In all representative democracies, people elect representatives to represent them, to act in their interest. Is this not what happens in the PPP also?

Zed posted:

How many members of the AFC elected Trottman as its leader? Was it a voting by all its members or regional representatives?

Zed posted:

America touts itself as one of the most democratic nation. However, in the last national elections for president, Clinton got the most votes and Trump got the most electoral votes. Obviously, it is the electoral votes that count not the total votes. 

In all representative democracies, people elect representatives to represent them, to act in their interest. Is this not what happens in the PPP also?

That's a myth. 

Uncle Hari said: The People’s Progressive Party…more centralistic than democratic

Hari Narayen ‘Ralph’ Ramkarran’s detailed diagnosis of the disease that is daily debilitating the People’s Progressive Party, has exposed that party’s dysfunctional internal procedures. The PPP is preparing for its much postponed 30th Congress on 2nd – 4th August at Port Mourant, Corentyne, but change should not be anticipated.
Little is expected to occur to alter that Party’s collective mindset, the composition of its collective leadership, and its collective approach to the way it has been governing Guyana over the past two decades. This might seem perplexing to the general public, but not to hardcore party officials who profit most from the parasitical, highly-centralised system of control it has imposed on the state.
The PPP was established 63 years ago as a mass-based party. It aimed then at mobilising the masses – the greatest number of Guyanese from all social strata and ethnic groups – to challenge the colonial order of the day.  It was very successful for the first five years. Many poor Africans and Indians and a few prominent Portuguese and Chinese, flocked to the Party. The PPP was elected to office for seven years in 1957-1964.
The PPP in 1969, five years after losing office, transformed itself from being (in its own words) “a loose mass party into a disciplined Leninist-type of party.” It felt that this was essential for it to regain and retain political power.  The Party, with this transformation, adopted Leninist organisational principles and methods which it defined to be: “democratic centralism and collective leadership in decision-making”, among other things.
The PPP’s present Constitution – designed to entrench the ideology of Marxism-Leninism and assist in the transformation of the party to a Leninist party of the new type” – was adopted in 1977, long before most living Guyanese were born. Little has changed. Control of the Party’s Central Committee and Executive Committee has been inherited by a cabal of members who have scant interest in socialist or Marxist principles. The current Constitution places control of the party in the hands of its leaders, not its members.
The PPP’s leaders simply do not want to relinquish this control that luck and long service have bequeathed to them. This is because, as Ramkarran has warned, “the PPP’s detailed economic policy choices are subject to the influence of the growing and increasingly powerful entrepreneurial and bureaucratic class who benefit enormously from procurement and other government activities.”
The PPP’s leaders have found it profitable to preserve the system it adopted 44 years ago and the Constitution it promulgated 36 years ago.  This explains, for example, how the Party has been functioning without a ‘party leader’ since Cheddi Jagan’s death 16 years ago. Central Committee members adhere to these organisational practices and principles, especially democratic centralism, an invention not of the philosophical Karl Marx, but of the conspiratorial Vladimir Lenin.
Democratic centralism was defined by its author as, “freedom in discussion – unity in action.” This means that, once a decision had been arrived at, it was no longer open to dissent. All members are required to accept the applicability of those decisions and, thereafter, to subordinate their own individuality to the majority.
This obsolete system prevailed in the Soviet Union and other communist countries, and is widely regarded as more centralistic than democratic. Ordinary party members elect delegates to Congress, who elect the Central Committee, who then elect the Executive Committee, who then elect the leaders who run the Party.  Ordinary members, simply, are not allowed to elect Party leaders ‘directly.’ They, therefore, have no real control over who will emerge eventually as their leaders. This is exactly what led to the alienation that was evident on the Corentyne in the November 2011 General and Regional elections.
Congress after congress, decade after decade, the same two or three dozen faces seem to reappear on the Central Committee, despite the fact that the PPP commands an electoral vote of over 160,000. Central Committee members once installed in office or in the Cabinet, similarly, become virtually immune to removal, regardless of how corrupt or incompetent they are.
This explains how leaders in former Communist regimes – such as the Castro family in Cuba and the Kim family Korea today – remain unremovable for decades. This is an example of essential Leninist authoritarian practice which distrusts the freely-expressed, but wildly unpredictable, will of the masses, but places supreme confidence in a small, self-perpetuating elite group.
Intelligent, young Guyanese, in this era of improved education and communication, resent being dictated to by such a group, or to be part of such a system. Some young rebels tried to change this highly-centralised Leninist system at the 27th Congress of the PPP in July 2002. Their motion for the posts of leader, chairman and general secretary to be openly contested was defeated, partly through the efforts of veterans who, expectedly, seem serenely satisfied with the status quo.
The PPP (in its own words) is no longer a ‘mass party.’ It is a political machine primed to win and wield power. Simpliciter. Ordinary Guyanese who constitute the majority of the population, however, should understand better how a ruling party’s adherence to the archaic doctrine of democratic centralism can affect the destiny of the nation.
As the PPP approaches its next Congress in August, its General Secretary Donald Ramotar should remember the old aphorism, “He that will not apply new remedies must expect new evils”.

Source:

I don't think too many young people remember Ramkarran. Besides this was his thinking in 2013. Does he entertain the same sentiments today?

skeldon_man posted:

I don't think too many young people remember Ramkarran. Besides this was his thinking in 2013. Does he entertain the same sentiments today?

He is quite relevant. He recently indicated he will not be running for office in 2020.  He is still of the opinion: The PPP’s leaders simply do not want to relinquish this control that luck and long service have bequeathed to them. This is because, as Ramkarran has warned, “the PPP’s detailed economic policy choices are subject to the influence of the growing and increasingly powerful entrepreneurial and bureaucratic class who benefit enormously from procurement and other government activities.”

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

I don't think too many young people remember Ramkarran. Besides this was his thinking in 2013. Does he entertain the same sentiments today?

He is quite relevant. He recently indicated he will not be running for office in 2020.  He is still of the opinion: The PPP’s leaders simply do not want to relinquish this control that luck and long service have bequeathed to them. This is because, as Ramkarran has warned, “the PPP’s detailed economic policy choices are subject to the influence of the growing and increasingly powerful entrepreneurial and bureaucratic class who benefit enormously from procurement and other government activities.”

Why relinquish something that works. I am sure this is true of any political party anywhere in the world.

(have to go start the snow blower and blow the snow. It's about 12 below zero windchill).

Y'all getting buried out there Skelly. Don't you wish you were in Paradise like I am? 

Mits, What is a Myth? That they claim to be one of the most democratic nation. Or, that they they are one of the most democratic nations.

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

I don't think too many young people remember Ramkarran. Besides this was his thinking in 2013. Does he entertain the same sentiments today?

He is quite relevant. He recently indicated he will not be running for office in 2020.  He is still of the opinion: The PPP’s leaders simply do not want to relinquish this control that luck and long service have bequeathed to them. This is because, as Ramkarran has warned, “the PPP’s detailed economic policy choices are subject to the influence of the growing and increasingly powerful entrepreneurial and bureaucratic class who benefit enormously from procurement and other government activities.”

We have no indication that he is still of this opinion. Most recent, he has been busy being critical of the current administration to render any time to other opinions.

Mits, congratulations! I was away from the site for a week and was unaware that you got promoted to be moderator. For my info, does verbally abusing posters fall under the category of "off topic" and will we see less of that from posters, especially you?

Zed posted:

Mits, What is a Myth? That they claim to be one of the most democratic nation. Or, that they they are one of the most democratic nations.

LOL. USA came in at 21 in the rankings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Please don't try to derail. The topic is: PPP Central Committee selecting Leadership smacks of cronyism

All parties have internal rules that their members abide by. The US Democratic party has the Super Delegate system which Hillary blamed for losing the Primaries to Obama and which many cited as helping her win over Bernie. In the NBA, players can be fined if they are not in suits when they are not suited up for play. The PPP has their rules and the PNC has theirs. Why is Sean Ori so absorbed by what the PPP is doing but seems not to be losing sleep of any other party's rules? The PPP did not lose because of their internal party rules. In my opinion, they lost because many got tired of seeing the same people in government. They were fooled into believing that change is good but unfortunately, only good change is good. Lots of folks who were on the change bandwagon a few years ago have already come to the conclusion that they were going down a wrong path.

Zed posted:

Mits, congratulations! I was away from the site for a week and was unaware that you got promoted to be moderator. For my info, does verbally abusing posters fall under the category of "off topic" and will we see less of that from posters, especially you?

My probation is up soon. Amral got me on his radar. Let me take this opportunity to wish you happy new year. 

Mitwah posted:

Zed posted:

Mits, What is a Myth? That they claim to be one of the most democratic nation. Or, that they they are one of the most democratic nations.

LOL. USA came in at 21 in the rankings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Please don't try to derail. The topic is: PPP Central Committee selecting Leadership smacks of cronyism

 

The PPP does not concern you, they don't need  you,go and criticize the APNU/AFC/PNC you are their advisor.

kp posted:

Mitwah posted:

Zed posted:

Mits, What is a Myth? That they claim to be one of the most democratic nation. Or, that they they are one of the most democratic nations.

LOL. USA came in at 21 in the rankings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Please don't try to derail. The topic is: PPP Central Committee selecting Leadership smacks of cronyism

 

The PPP does not concern you, they don't need  you,go and criticize the APNU/AFC/PNC you are their advisor.

KP, are you not concerned that:"Intelligent, young Guyanese, in this era of improved education and communication, resent being dictated to by such a group (self-perpetuating elite group), or to be part of such a system. " ?

Drugb posted:

antabanta posted:

why should any concerned person asking questions be suspect? Are you saying the PPP's activities are above question? What would be really suspect is you asking questions of the PPP's actions. Because that is unimaginable.

Lilmohan is a known and confessed supporter of the pnc/afc, a party that stand to gain if the wrong leader of the ppp is elected. The selection of the PPP leadership should be the concern of the PPP supporters, not pnc/afc soupies looking to stir up controversy for political gain. In fact your premise that the selection process is undemocratic is seriously flawed as those selecting the leadership are merely exercising the will of their constituents who elected them at the polls.  If the constituents don't like the way they vote then they have the recourse of firing them in the electoral process. 

My premise??

Has the PPP relinquished its communist ideology? All political, social, community, religious leaders are everyone's concern. Your logic is flawed because there is no one available outside the influence of the party for the common to approach for representation. The will of constituents is limited to whomever the party makes available.

antabanta posted:

My premise??

Has the PPP relinquished its communist ideology? All political, social, community, religious leaders are everyone's concern. Your logic is flawed because there is no one available outside the influence of the party for the common to approach for representation. The will of constituents is limited to whomever the party makes available.

Apparently you were a former/current PPP insider with an ax to grind with the party. I suggest you take it up with the hierarchy and effect change from the inside rather than voice frustration on an obscure forum. 

Let us hear your gripe or approval of the PNC/AFC leadership selection process. 

Drugb posted:

antabanta posted:

My premise??

Has the PPP relinquished its communist ideology? All political, social, community, religious leaders are everyone's concern. Your logic is flawed because there is no one available outside the influence of the party for the common to approach for representation. The will of constituents is limited to whomever the party makes available.

Apparently you were a former/current PPP insider with an ax to grind with the party. I suggest you take it up with the hierarchy and effect change from the inside rather than voice frustration on an obscure forum. 

Let us hear your gripe or approval of the PNC/AFC leadership selection process. 

What is your complaint about the PNC/AFC leadership selection process? If you don't like my post on this obscure forum.. that you're on .. every day.. despite its obscurity.. anyhow... thanks for the suggestion but, considering the garbage you post here .. on this obscure forum .. daily .. that you're on ... every day.. despite its obscurity... anyhow, considering your garbage, I think my posts are of superior quality and shall continue.

KP, don't you agree? The current method used is self-serving to those on the Central Committee of the PPP. It is too undemocratic.

Mitwah posted:

KP, don't you agree? The current method used is self-serving to those on the Central Committee of the PPP. It is too undemocratic.

I am more concern with what measures are in place to detect and avoid rigging of the next general election and what role will the military play in the election.

The article written by Ori is more of political diversion, bait and switch, right now the Guyanese people needs answers regarding the secrecy of the Exxon Mobil contract and the non disclosure of the Signature Bonus.

kp posted:

Mitwah posted:

KP, don't you agree? The current method used is self-serving to those on the Central Committee of the PPP. It is too undemocratic.

I am more concern with what measures are in place to detect and avoid rigging of the next general election and what role will the military play in the election.

The article written by Ori is more of political diversion, bait and switch, right now the Guyanese people needs answers regarding the secrecy of the Exxon Mobil contract and the non disclosure of the Signature Bonus.

I have not seen you starting a thread on your concerns. How come?

Mitwah posted:

kp posted:

Mitwah posted:

KP, don't you agree? The current method used is self-serving to those on the Central Committee of the PPP. It is too undemocratic.

I am more concern with what measures are in place to detect and avoid rigging of the next general election and what role will the military play in the election.

The article written by Ori is more of political diversion, bait and switch, right now the Guyanese people needs answers regarding the secrecy of the Exxon Mobil contract and the non disclosure of the Signature Bonus.

I have not seen you starting a thread on your concerns. How come?

GNI burns energy,I sometimes wonder how many of you find the time to post and counter posts, and verbal battle everyday. Many times I have to muster courage to play with my Ipod, phone or my keyboard to have a dialogue . Many of my views are personal, in the late 60's and early 70's I was active with the PYO in my district, in the early 60's I see the bombing, I hear the gun shots. I was given 24 hours notice to leave a job with the government because I did not have a PNC card. So today I hate to relive those memories, I am thankful to Canada where I can live in Peace.

KP I don't expect you to see this as part of your demise. As Ramkarran bluntly stated: The PPP’s present Constitution – designed to entrench the ideology of Marxism-Leninism and assist in the transformation of the party to a Leninist party of the new type” – was adopted in 1977, long before most living Guyanese were born. Little has changed. Control of the Party’s Central Committee and Executive Committee has been inherited by a cabal of members who have scant interest in socialist or Marxist principles. The current Constitution places control of the party in the hands of its leaders, not its members.

antabanta posted:

What is your complaint about the PNC/AFC leadership selection process? If you don't like my post on this obscure forum.. that you're on .. every day.. despite its obscurity.. anyhow... thanks for the suggestion but, considering the garbage you post here .. on this obscure forum .. daily .. that you're on ... every day.. despite its obscurity... anyhow, considering your garbage, I think my posts are of superior quality and shall continue.

self praise is no complement.  Now that I ask the question of the selection process in the afc/pnc party, you get annoyed. Why is that?