If Shimon Peres had his way, the Palestinians would have gotten their own State. He was a progressive Israeli statesman.

A man who was the father of the settlements and wanted to sell Nuclear bombs to Apartheid South Africa.

You two sound like two old goats.

Abu Jihad posted:

A man who was the father of the settlements and wanted to sell Nuclear bombs to Apartheid South Africa.

You two sound like two old goats.

 

In politics, you have to work with what/who you've got. Palestinians alone cannot solve their homeland problem. They need the cooperation of Israelis, notwithstanding official Israeli plan to sell nuclear bombs to apartheid South Africa. We can rightly protest against that particular Israeli plan, but it doesn't mean that Palestinian leaders should not look for peace partners in Israel. The late PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat regarded Shimon Peres as a sincere negotiating partner compared to Y. Rabin and others.

Gilbakka posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

A man who was the father of the settlements and wanted to sell Nuclear bombs to Apartheid South Africa.

You two sound like two old goats.

 

In politics, you have to work with what/who you've got. Palestinians alone cannot solve their homeland problem. They need the cooperation of Israelis, notwithstanding official Israeli plan to sell nuclear bombs to apartheid South Africa. We can rightly protest against that particular Israeli plan, but it doesn't mean that Palestinian leaders should not look for peace partners in Israel. The late PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat regarded Shimon Peres as a sincere negotiating partner compared to Y. Rabin and others.

Shimon Peres was a brave man with a kind heart. I am sure it was disappointing to him that Israel did not achieve peace with the Palestinians.  May his soul rest in peace.

You always have to study your political options. As long as America remains a superpower and Jewish technology advances. Israel will exist. The Palestinian people should have embraced the two state solution and build up their state. 

Abu Jihad posted:

A man who was the father of the settlements and wanted to sell Nuclear bombs to Apartheid South Africa.

You two sound like two old goats.

 

Chief posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

A man who was the father of the settlements and wanted to sell Nuclear bombs to Apartheid South Africa.

You two sound like two old goats.

 

Chief is a friend of the Jews, but he get a long knife behind their backs. They say keep your friend close, but your enemies closer.  Right, Chiefy?

Abu Jihad posted:

A man who was the father of the settlements and wanted to sell Nuclear bombs to Apartheid South Africa.

You two sound like two old goats.

 

Exactly !!  Anyone who paints a picture of Peres as a man of peace and justice needs to educate himself/herself or have his/her head thoroughly examined. Almost on a daily basis, the entire planet is being asked to remember  the horrible and unacceptable treatment of Jews during WW2, however, what is conveniently overlooked is the fact that the acts of barbarity were perpetrated by Christian nations; white people ! To this day, larger numbers of Jews still live in Muslim countries, viz: Morocco,  Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, Jordan & Turkey, where they operate businesses without any interference whatsoever. When they were being vilified and decimated by Christian (white) nations during WW2, the Arabs never lifted a finger against them; in fact they provided shelter and protection. If any of you have been to Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, and Jordan, you will see this right now. What the white nations did at the end of WW2 was based on their collective guilt; instead of allowing and encouraging the Jews to return to their properties in France, Austria, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, etc. they used their military might to create a state for the Jews on Arab land. Shimon Peres was one of several prime ministers of Israel who confiscated Palestinian lands for 're-settlement' of Jews and, while he talked about peace out of one corner of his mouth, he was just as brutal as his predecessors and the current arrogant bully Netanyahu who had the temerity to go to the USA without exercising the common courtesy of at least notifying President Obama. Make no mistake about it, Peres was no different from any of his predecessors; they were all bullies and thieves who took full advantage of their military strength (provided by the USA) to steal the lands of defenseless people.        

Chief posted:

A great stares man who wanted peace with the Palestinians and Arabs.

He realized  at some point that occupation is not the way to go.

Unfortunately the reality today is more Israel agrees ion and occupation.

"great stares man who wanted peace with the Palestinians and Arabs" !! After you have gone where I have been and have spoken to the people in Gaza and the West Bank, please come back and tell us about the benevolence and compassion of Peres and that evil gang ! While there, I frequently remembered that my grandfather used to say "Moon ah run till dat ketch am" !   

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

― Malcolm X

Prashad posted:

You always have to study your political options. As long as America remains a superpower and Jewish technology advances. Israel will exist. The Palestinian people should have embraced the two state solution and build up their state. 

On what basis should have the Palestinians done this 'embrace' ? Please keep in mind that Jews who had been living for generations in Germany, Austria, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Russia etc were brutalized by white European nations; not by the Palestinians or Arabs !  No nation treated them better than the Arabs. Israel is indeed existing but at a monumental cost; a significant portion of which American taxpayers are subscribing ..... and the dumb fools are doing nothing about it !     

Abu Jihad posted:

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

― Malcolm X

Context, Comrade Jihad. Context. That's a nice quote from Malcolm X. Trying to apply it to Shimon Peres is a little questionable.

Unless you want the destruction of the state of Israel, you ought to concede that Palestinian leaders have to negotiate with Israeli state officials to achieve the ultimate goal of a Palestinian state.

We know that all Israeli governments have consistently oppressed Palestinians. Why shouldn't the oppressed conduct talks with their oppressors? It's part of the overall struggle.

We also know that Shimon Peres and other prominent Israeli politicians were terrorists. Weren't Yasser Arafat and other Palestinian leaders terrorists too? At one stage, the PLO and other groups had used terrorism as a method of struggle. But Israel still decided to negotiate with the PLO.

Back to the issue of oppression. Hamas and others had accused the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority of oppressing them in Gaza. Hamas kicked Fatah out of Gaza. Which newspapers should we be careful with? The ones that supported Hamas or the ones that supported Fatah?

Holds to the fact, Abraham was given the land by Yahweh, owner of it. I cannot see Israel disobeying their God, knowing the prophets have said that they will return to the land from all corners of the earth. And it has happened. That is an indication that the God of the Jews is real and He speaks through those He ordained as prophets. 

Keffer posted:

Prashad posted:

You always have to study your political options. As long as America remains a superpower and Jewish technology advances. Israel will exist. The Palestinian people should have embraced the two state solution and build up their state. 

On what basis should have the Palestinians done this 'embrace' ? Please keep in mind that Jews who had been living for generations in Germany, Austria, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Russia etc were brutalized by white European nations; not by the Palestinians or Arabs !  No nation treated them better than the Arabs. Israel is indeed existing but at a monumental cost; a significant portion of which American taxpayers are subscribing ..... and the dumb fools are doing nothing about it !     

The Orthodox Jews proclaim, that America has replaced their God. And that is dangerous, they said.

Keffer posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

A man who was the father of the settlements and wanted to sell Nuclear bombs to Apartheid South Africa.

You two sound like two old goats.

 

Exactly !!  Anyone who paints a picture of Peres as a man of peace and justice needs to educate himself/herself or have his/her head thoroughly examined. Almost on a daily basis, the entire planet is being asked to remember  the horrible and unacceptable treatment of Jews during WW2, however, what is conveniently overlooked is the fact that the acts of barbarity were perpetrated by Christian nations; white people ! To this day, larger numbers of Jews still live in Muslim countries, viz: Morocco,  Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, Jordan & Turkey, where they operate businesses without any interference whatsoever. When they were being vilified and decimated by Christian (white) nations during WW2, the Arabs never lifted a finger against them; in fact they provided shelter and protection. If any of you have been to Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, and Jordan, you will see this right now. What the white nations did at the end of WW2 was based on their collective guilt; instead of allowing and encouraging the Jews to return to their properties in France, Austria, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, etc. they used their military might to create a state for the Jews on Arab land. Shimon Peres was one of several prime ministers of Israel who confiscated Palestinian lands for 're-settlement' of Jews and, while he talked about peace out of one corner of his mouth, he was just as brutal as his predecessors and the current arrogant bully Netanyahu who had the temerity to go to the USA without exercising the common courtesy of at least notifying President Obama. Make no mistake about it, Peres was no different from any of his predecessors; they were all bullies and thieves who took full advantage of their military strength (provided by the USA) to steal the lands of defenseless people.        

Prophesies bro.

Evil in mankind hearts does precipitate events.

The State of Isreal was foretold for thousands of years. Somehow, it had to happen.

Gilbakka posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

― Malcolm X

Context, Comrade Jihad. Context. That's a nice quote from Malcolm X. Trying to apply it to Shimon Peres is a little questionable.

Unless you want the destruction of the state of Israel, you ought to concede that Palestinian leaders have to negotiate with Israeli state officials to achieve the ultimate goal of a Palestinian state.

We know that all Israeli governments have consistently oppressed Palestinians. Why shouldn't the oppressed conduct talks with their oppressors? It's part of the overall struggle.

We also know that Shimon Peres and other prominent Israeli politicians were terrorists. Weren't Yasser Arafat and other Palestinian leaders terrorists too? At one stage, the PLO and other groups had used terrorism as a method of struggle. But Israel still decided to negotiate with the PLO.

Back to the issue of oppression. Hamas and others had accused the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority of oppressing them in Gaza. Hamas kicked Fatah out of Gaza. Which newspapers should we be careful with? The ones that supported Hamas or the ones that supported Fatah?

The USA and its cohorts are ever so quick to attach labels to others; on what basis can any rational person classify Arafat as a terrorist ? What were Arafat and the Palestinians supposed to do ? Roll over and play dead ? The Palestinians sought recourse from every forum at their disposal and have been pushed back; solely because of the clout of the Jewish lobby and racism in which nations like USA, England, France, Germany etc have been active players. What would you have done in his place; go ('cap in hand' to the very people who, with full support of USA, UK and other white nations, stole and now occupy your land) and beg for the crumbs that falls from their table ? Your comment on Fatah/Hamas is mute; their differences were internal and had nothing to do with the theft and occupation of their land ... that is tantamount to blaming the victims of a natural catastrophe !   

seignet posted:

Holds to the fact, Abraham was given the land by Yahweh, owner of it. I cannot see Israel disobeying their God, knowing the prophets have said that they will return to the land from all corners of the earth. And it has happened. That is an indication that the God of the Jews is real and He speaks through those He ordained as prophets. 

Seigy, I respect your faith in Christianity. God did not write any book or said anything, whether it's Islam, Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism. Men wrote everything. I do believe in a supreme being. But for men to tell me who is god, that a tall tale to follow. There cannot be that many gods who will instruct their followers to conquer, enslave and kill their own. The supreme being(whomever he/she is) must have instructed us to be good to our fellow man, for without him(our fellow man), we would perish and die.

Gilbakka posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

― Malcolm X

Context, Comrade Jihad. Context. That's a nice quote from Malcolm X. Trying to apply it to Shimon Peres is a little questionable.

This applies to the whole Israeli narrative, not just Peres.  A man who propagated settlements cannot support peace.

Unless you want the destruction of the state of Israel, you ought to concede that Palestinian leaders have to negotiate with Israeli state officials to achieve the ultimate goal of a Palestinian state.

Agreed, but the Oslo accord was a sham, after 20+ years, no sign of peace and at least one of the signatories assassinated  by another signatory.

We know that all Israeli governments have consistently oppressed Palestinians. Why shouldn't the oppressed conduct talks with their oppressors? It's part of the overall struggle.

Same as above

We also know that Shimon Peres and other prominent Israeli politicians were terrorists. Weren't Yasser Arafat and other Palestinian leaders terrorists too? At one stage, the PLO and other groups had used terrorism as a method of struggle. But Israel still decided to negotiate with the PLO.

I am not sure what is your point, it seems like you think one terrorist holds the patent over the other.

Back to the issue of oppression. Hamas and others had accused the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority of oppressing them in Gaza. Hamas kicked Fatah out of Gaza. Which newspapers should we be careful with? The ones that supported Hamas or the ones that supported Fatah?

Peres was also the architect of of Hamas.

Next we will hear that Tony Blair the latest peace envoy was a man of honour.

The only viable solution is a one state solution, all the rest is vile and racist narratives that I dont subscribe to.

Gilly, please support BDS

Keffer posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

A man who was the father of the settlements and wanted to sell Nuclear bombs to Apartheid South Africa.

You two sound like two old goats.

 

Exactly !!  Anyone who paints a picture of Peres as a man of peace and justice needs to educate himself/herself or have his/her head thoroughly examined. Almost on a daily basis, the entire planet is being asked to remember  the horrible and unacceptable treatment of Jews during WW2, however, what is conveniently overlooked is the fact that the acts of barbarity were perpetrated by Christian nations; white people ! To this day, larger numbers of Jews still live in Muslim countries, viz: Morocco,  Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, Jordan & Turkey, where they operate businesses without any interference whatsoever. When they were being vilified and decimated by Christian (white) nations during WW2, the Arabs never lifted a finger against them; in fact they provided shelter and protection. If any of you have been to Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, and Jordan, you will see this right now. What the white nations did at the end of WW2 was based on their collective guilt; instead of allowing and encouraging the Jews to return to their properties in France, Austria, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, etc. they used their military might to create a state for the Jews on Arab land. Shimon Peres was one of several prime ministers of Israel who confiscated Palestinian lands for 're-settlement' of Jews and, while he talked about peace out of one corner of his mouth, he was just as brutal as his predecessors and the current arrogant bully Netanyahu who had the temerity to go to the USA without exercising the common courtesy of at least notifying President Obama. Make no mistake about it, Peres was no different from any of his predecessors; they were all bullies and thieves who took full advantage of their military strength (provided by the USA) to steal the lands of defenseless people.        

All valid points. Peres in later years did strive for peace. And while Israel still needs to be held responsible for their brutal treatment of the Pakestinians, I would like to see peace come to that region post haste. There is too much sufferings and misery in the Middle East and maybe there should be a new approach since the ones being applied aren't working.

ksazma posted:

Keffer posted:

Abu Jihad posted:

A man who was the father of the settlements and wanted to sell Nuclear bombs to Apartheid South Africa.

You two sound like two old goats.

 

Exactly !!  Anyone who paints a picture of Peres as a man of peace and justice needs to educate himself/herself or have his/her head thoroughly examined. Almost on a daily basis, the entire planet is being asked to remember  the horrible and unacceptable treatment of Jews during WW2, however, what is conveniently overlooked is the fact that the acts of barbarity were perpetrated by Christian nations; white people ! To this day, larger numbers of Jews still live in Muslim countries, viz: Morocco,  Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, Jordan & Turkey, where they operate businesses without any interference whatsoever. When they were being vilified and decimated by Christian (white) nations during WW2, the Arabs never lifted a finger against them; in fact they provided shelter and protection. If any of you have been to Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, and Jordan, you will see this right now. What the white nations did at the end of WW2 was based on their collective guilt; instead of allowing and encouraging the Jews to return to their properties in France, Austria, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, etc. they used their military might to create a state for the Jews on Arab land. Shimon Peres was one of several prime ministers of Israel who confiscated Palestinian lands for 're-settlement' of Jews and, while he talked about peace out of one corner of his mouth, he was just as brutal as his predecessors and the current arrogant bully Netanyahu who had the temerity to go to the USA without exercising the common courtesy of at least notifying President Obama. Make no mistake about it, Peres was no different from any of his predecessors; they were all bullies and thieves who took full advantage of their military strength (provided by the USA) to steal the lands of defenseless people.        

All valid points. Peres in later years did strive for peace. And while Israel still needs to be held responsible for their brutal treatment of the Pakestinians, I would like to see peace come to that region post haste. There is too much sufferings and misery in the Middle East and maybe there should be a new approach since the ones being applied aren't working.

Peace cannot come to that region without concurrence of USA. Willingness by USA to deal firmly with Israel, which is nothing but a nation of thieves and thugs, will unquestionably be the main prerequisite but, given the make-up of both houses of govt. in the USA that is highly unlikely at this time. 

Keffer posted:

 

The USA and its cohorts are ever so quick to attach labels to others; on what basis can any rational person classify Arafat as a terrorist ? What were Arafat and the Palestinians supposed to do ? Roll over and play dead ? 

 

Lemme try this response to Keffer: Since the 1930s Anastasio Somoza was a brutal dictator of Nicaragua, while the US turned a blind eye to his atrocities. US President Franklin D. Roosevelt said Somoza was "a sonofabitch but he's our sonofabitch."

Now, paraphrasing Roosevelt, Gilbakka says: "Yasser Arafat was a terrorist but he was my kind of terrorist." In fact, when my son was born in 1991, I named him Yasser after Arafat.

True, the PLO had initially tried peaceful methods of struggle but got nowhere. Then, they resorted to spectacular acts of terrorism and got world attention focused on the plight of the Palestinians. As a longtime PLO supporter, I know it is not politically correct for me to call Arafat and others terrorists; I should call them freedom fighters. Truth is, though, freedom fighters in many countries use terrorism as a method of struggle, among other more acceptable methods. 

So, taking the discussion back to Shimon Peres, he was indeed a terrorist. Just read this recent article.

I think it's highly impractical to advocate the dissolution of Israel or a one-state solution. A two-state solution is feasible. This is where our Palestinian "terrorists" have to negotiate with Israeli terrorists for the attainment of that aim. Keffer, lest you misunderstand me, we're both supporting the Palestinians' cause, but the harsh truth is that even among the Palestinians there are sharp divisions and disagreements. 

Gilbakka posted:

Keffer posted:

 

The USA and its cohorts are ever so quick to attach labels to others; on what basis can any rational person classify Arafat as a terrorist ? What were Arafat and the Palestinians supposed to do ? Roll over and play dead ? 

 

Lemme try this response to Keffer: Since the 1930s Anastasio Somoza was a brutal dictator of Nicaragua, while the US turned a blind eye to his atrocities. US President Franklin D. Roosevelt said Somoza was "a sonofabitch but he's our sonofabitch."

Now, paraphrasing Roosevelt, Gilbakka says: "Yasser Arafat was a terrorist but he was my kind of terrorist." In fact, when my son was born in 1991, I named him Yasser after Arafat.

True, the PLO had initially tried peaceful methods of struggle but got nowhere. Then, they resorted to spectacular acts of terrorism and got world attention focused on the plight of the Palestinians. As a longtime PLO supporter, I know it is not politically correct for me to call Arafat and others terrorists; I should call them freedom fighters. Truth is, though, freedom fighters in many countries use terrorism as a method of struggle, among other more acceptable methods. 

So, taking the discussion back to Shimon Peres, he was indeed a terrorist. Just read this recent article.

I think it's highly impractical to advocate the dissolution of Israel or a one-state solution. A two-state solution is feasible. This is where our Palestinian "terrorists" have to negotiate with Israeli terrorists for the attainment of that aim. Keffer, lest you misunderstand me, we're both supporting the Palestinians' cause, but the harsh truth is that even among the Palestinians there are sharp divisions and disagreements. 

Bai me tell you, you like wan real musalman . You pickney had to have a muslim name even thought you said that Feroze Mohammed was a name of convenience for one occasion. Wonder what happened there?

skeldon_man posted: Bai me tell you, you like wan real musalman . You pickney had to have a muslim name even thought you said that Feroze Mohammed was a name of convenience for one occasion. Wonder what happened there?

Skelly, if you're playing a simpleton you won't get it. I named my son after Arafat not because he was a Muslim but because he was a hero to me. Truth be told, my first choice of a boy's name while my wife was pregnant was Boris, after Boris Yeltsin. But a Russian friend advised me against it because we didn't know in those early days how Yeltsin would turn out. So my Plan B kicked in.

Skelly, me know yuh inquisitive and want fo know: what if me wife de get a gyal picknee? Well, my one and only choice was Tania, after a German guerrilla fighter who died with Che Guevara in Bolivia in 1967.

Gilbakka posted:

skeldon_man posted: Bai me tell you, you like wan real musalman . You pickney had to have a muslim name even thought you said that Feroze Mohammed was a name of convenience for one occasion. Wonder what happened there?

Skelly, if you're playing a simpleton you won't get it. I named my son after Arafat not because he was a Muslim but because he was a hero to me. Truth be told, my first choice of a boy's name while my wife was pregnant was Boris, after Boris Yeltsin. But a Russian friend advised me against it because we didn't know in those early days how Yeltsin would turn out. So my Plan B kicked in.

Skelly, me know yuh inquisitive and want fo know: what if me wife de get a gyal picknee? Well, my one and only choice was Tania, after a German guerrilla fighter who died with Che Guevara in Bolivia in 1967.

You can still change your son's name legally in Canada to some of your iconic Hero like Hitler, Stalin, Burnham, etc. BTW, Yasser Arafat's full name is: Mohammed Yasser Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa

I hope you didn't robbed the child anything less of the full name of a great man.