Excellent comments and observations by President Dr. Jagdeo.

Reform necessary for PPP/C to win future elections

This is very important and necessary, skonthole like Donald Ramotar should be kicked out of the party for being a lieing Fokker.

I am really happy that Jagdeo realized that Thursday night at PPP/C community meetings where he lashed out at members of his Party, citing they had become “complacent” and “lazy”.

He stated that coupled with this was the fact that many Party individuals also became arrogant and as a result lost touch with the Party’s “bases”.

Donald Ramotar falls in this category.

asj posted:

Reform necessary for PPP/C to win future elections

This is very important and necessary, skonthole like Donald Ramotar should be kicked out of the party for being a lieing Fokker.

I am really happy that Jagdeo realized that Thursday night at PPP/C community meetings where he lashed out at members of his Party, citing they had become “complacent” and “lazy”.

He stated that coupled with this was the fact that many Party individuals also became arrogant and as a result lost touch with the Party’s “bases”.

Donald Ramotar falls in this category.

Remoter was a Jackass. He was lazy and allowed KN to print and peddle misinformation without a challenge. Many PPP officials were also lazy and arrogant.

Great call by President Dr. Jagdeo.

This will come back to haunt Moses and Ramjattan:

"They promised that if given the opportunity to succeed to office by winning the Elections the coalition would ensure sugar workers receive 20 per cent increase in their salaries/wages and rice farmers benefit from $9000 per bag of their produce."

“Thirdly, what caused our support to dwindle was we have an entire generation under 30 (years) that doesn’t know the PNC… only know the PPP/C in power… They never had a frame of reference to compare… The whole message of change was a very strong one and they thought that change could only mean better but now they see it is not,” Jagdeo further explained.

Why Jagdeo never responded to the daily attacks in the media with a letter?  Have you ever seen a letter or article written by BJ to counter charges by the opposition????

Of course no admission that Jagdeo HIMSELF is the problem, or that if the base consists only of Indians, then this base will shrink.

Any mention of the need to broaden the PPP base?  Of course not.

So as the Indian population dropped from 52% in 1970 to a possible 38% by 2020, the PPP will still scream rigging when they lose that election, assuming that they still trumpet themselves as the "coolie people party". 

Jagdeo is the who has lost touch with the Party bases. He treats the Grass Roots members with contempt. He self appointed himself as leader of the opposition. The PPP/C support base is rapidly declining.

There is no democratic process within the PPP.  For some one to offer an independent opinion renders them open to ridicule and harassment.  They could have worked harder to retain the soup licker Clinton Urling, but they lambasted him when he offered his opinion for the PPP loss.  Now they made it easy for him to flee, so he is most likely now seeking APNU soup.

But then the "coolie people party" thinks that enslaving Indians to them, and adding some Amerindians, will be enough to secure victory. They learned NOTHING from the events of May 11, 2015.

The ppp will find it tough to win future elections if the apnu/afc can right the ship. To Caribj's point, the Indo population to which the PPP appeals is decreasing via migration and inter marriage. 

The PPP needs to find new MULTI ETHNIC leadership.  They need to be the party of NEW ideas.  They need to quit their feeling of entitlement, and cease being defensive.

NONE of this will happen, unless Jagdeo disappears.

The coalition gov't clearly have weakness, which the PPP can exploit, if it re-engineers itself, and aggressively seeks to win at least 20-30% of the African/mixed voters.

yuji22 posted:

Excellent comments and observations by President Dr. Jagdeo.

“They used Ramjattan and Nagamootoo as the Trojan horses

Scamps and scoundrels. They sold their souls for power. Power hungry worms..I just do not want to insult my dog.

skeldon_man posted:

yuji22 posted:

Excellent comments and observations by President Dr. Jagdeo.

“They used Ramjattan and Nagamootoo as the Trojan horses

Scamps and scoundrels. They sold their souls for power. Power hungry worms..I just do not want to insult my dog.

 

It is a known fact that Ramjattan and Nagamootoo delivered few votes from the PPP base.

Jump and scream as you like, but with a dwindling Indo population, the "coolie people party" doesn't seem to have great prospects, unless it ceases to be the Indo KKK.

Bharrat Jagdeo was not being honest with PPP members at that meeting. He found a few scapegoats but kept his own deeds beyond reproach. But many longstanding party members have said that Jagdeo's own arrogance and bullying behaviour caused them to take a back seat and become passive.

No doubt, there is need for reform within the party, but what kind of reform? The leadership had flaunted their high lifestyle and Jagdeo particularly continues to defend such. They need to sell off some of their properties and luxury vehicles and live modestly with the masses. 

The party also needs to be genuinely sympathetic to the problems of Afro-Guyanese and the other races, and reach out to them not only for votes but in real friendship and brotherhood. Jagdeo must concede that Indo-Guyanese votes alone will not be enough for a PPP victory in 2020. That vote bank is shrinking every week through emigration.

And, if only, if only Jagdeo and Ramotar and Rohee and Teixeira can make themselves humble and openly declare that the PPP regime had made some mistakes, they would garner some needed support.

Giving ordinary party members a tongue-lashing and telling them they're "lazy" and "complacent" is counter-productive.

Quote By Gil:

"They need to sell off some of their properties and luxury vehicles and live modestly with the masses."

Response by Yuji:

Gil, Why don't you tell that to Moses and Ramjattan and insist that they declare their assets local and foreign.

You are not making any sense here.

Jagdeo is self deluded.  The PPP can reform itself all it wants, but it will do not good. The biblical admonition about not giving "that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine" is instructive here. The PPP cannot win until those  corrupt politicians are all passed away from this place. Even then they will also have to change from being closet racist to democrats. That in itself is a long haul. The PPP is not getting into office soon.

Jagdeo was not being honest. There were many reasons why rtge PPP lost the elections and they are all attributed to him. 

He ignored the base of the party and surrounded himself with only people who told him what he wanted to hear. People who gave different views were shun. The party work at the core level fell off and the party lost the connection to the people who supported it. Members felt that they did not matter anymore. The PPP became a shell, its membership dwindled and those who stayed were more interested in serving themselves instead of the people. Corruption became a big issue under his presidency and they did not or could not adequately respond to the accusations. Ministers and key party officials became arrogant, they thought the owned the votes of those who voted for them, not realizing that it was a privilege they were accorded. People were seeing the great disparity in wealth and opportunities. They did not practice modern politics and got out worked and out maneuvered. The 2011 elections, they thought wine anf grind wil win them support. In 2015. they thought that Jagdeo will turn things around so gave him the lead. They had years to prepare for the elections they must have known was coming, and did little to solidify their base and reach out. When they went to communities, people asked where they were all the time.  They were delusional, telling themselves how good they were and expect the people to agree. They must blame themselves, not the people who voted against them. 

I take your point Zed, but as for now I do not see anyone on the horizon to run the PPP/C as a leader, so I would go with Jagdeo.

Zed..totally agreed with your points,also they did not factor in their shrinking voting base.They have to be come a more multi ethnic party to win future elections.

asj posted:

I take your point Zed, but as for now I do not see anyone on the horizon to run the PPP/C as a leader, so I would go withJagdeo.

He has too much baggage with him as the leader,prepare to see the PPP in the opposition for a very long time.

Django posted:

asj posted:

I take your point Zed, but as for now I do not see anyone on the horizon to run the PPP/C as a leader, so I would go withJagdeo.

He has too much baggage with him as the leader,prepare to see the PPP in the opposition for a very long time.

I do not see the baggage that you are referring to, his critics were accusing him for all sort of fictitious thiefing, but it is eight months since a new government has taken over, and what do we see..they have appointed all sorts of audits and yet........they cannot find anything to pin him down and get a conviction. If what you guys are saying have any truth in it, then he would have been languishing in jail by now.

Stormborn posted:

Jagdeo is self deluded.  The PPP can reform itself all it wants, but it will do not good. The biblical admonition about not giving "that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine" is instructive here. The PPP cannot win until those  corrupt politicians are all passed away from this place. Even then they will also have to change from being closet racist to democrats. That in itself is a long haul. The PPP is not getting into office soon.

True, if you consider 4.5 years as not soon!

asj posted:

Django posted:

asj posted:

I take your point Zed, but as for now I do not see anyone on the horizon to run the PPP/C as a leader, so I would go withJagdeo.

He has too much baggage with him as the leader,prepare to see the PPP in the opposition for a very long time.

I do not see the baggage that you are referring to, his critics were accusing him for all sort of fictitious thiefing, but it is eight months since a new government has taken over, and what do we see..they have appointed all sorts of audits and yet........they cannot find anything to pin him down and get a conviction. If what you guys are saying have any truth in it, then he would have been languishing in jail by now.

Patience bhai,if within a year from today Jaggy and some of the crew from PPP are not charged for wrong doing,i will pronounce the APNU/AFC as just blowing hot air.

Some of the deals reported daily in the media points to wrong doing by individuals linked to the PPP and occurred when they were in government.

Django posted:

Zed..totally agreed with your points,also they did not factor in their shrinking voting base.They have to be come a more multi ethnic party to win future elections.

No party in guyana can "become" a multi ethnic party on will power and good and moral behavior alone. The damage has been done. It has a legacy going on 2 centuries of hate and distrust that can only be remedied by institutional barriers against ethnic nepotism.  In our present constitutional and electoral system, we do not stand a chance of ever overcoming our ethnic balkanization.

asj posted:

Django posted:

asj posted:

I take your point Zed, but as for now I do not see anyone on the horizon to run the PPP/C as a leader, so I would go withJagdeo.

He has too much baggage with him as the leader,prepare to see the PPP in the opposition for a very long time.

I do not see the baggage that you are referring to, his critics were accusing him for all sort of fictitious thiefing, but it is eight months since a new government has taken over, and what do we see..they have appointed all sorts of audits and yet........they cannot find anything to pin him down and get a conviction. If what you guys are saying have any truth in it, then he would have been languishing in jail by now.

They did steal,  but not the way this government thought about it. They (APNU-AFC) are now tripping over all the excess propaganda they generated over the years. These guys stole off the books. They were smart enough not to do it on books. That's why I have called it the kick-back tax for years. You can find the contractor who built the mansion by the seaside now right in the arms of APNU-AFC. The PPP is also guilty of massive waste of economic resources on things like Marriott, fiber optic cable, Fip's road to nowhere, etc. They also used their political influence to buy state assets - Guysuco lands and houses, for instance - at rock bottom prices. That's also stealing when you can use your influence to buy something for $400 when it is worth $2000. Jagdeo has no credibility or moral standing. He does not even have economic policy credibility.

My prediction however is this govt will not jail any big wig from PPP, largely because they either don't want to or they are chasing the wrong trail. In 4 years the public will say the same thing as you are now - that that PPP did not steal when we have clues and newspaper articles as starting leads.

asj posted:

Reform necessary for PPP/C to win future elections

This is very important and necessary, skonthole like Donald Ramotar should be kicked out of the party for being a lieing Fokker.

I am really happy that Jagdeo realized that Thursday night at PPP/C community meetings where he lashed out at members of his Party, citing they had become “complacent” and “lazy”.

He stated that coupled with this was the fact that many Party individuals also became arrogant and as a result lost touch with the Party’s “bases”.

Donald Ramotar falls in this category.

Why are you seeing Donald as a scape goat? He is not the main problem. Yes, he could be President today had he governed more responsibly. Had he given in to some of the demands from the majority opposition from 2011. The reason he did not govern responsibly was because Jagdeo was pulling his strings and he did not have the intellectual stamina to take on Jagdeo.

yuji22 posted:

Excellent comments and observations by President Dr. Jagdeo.

you stupid stupid man that is one of the man the ppp have to kick out to start the reform 

asj posted:

Django posted:

asj posted:

I take your point Zed, but as for now I do not see anyone on the horizon to run the PPP/C as a leader, so I would go withJagdeo.

He has too much baggage with him as the leader,prepare to see the PPP in the opposition for a very long time.

I do not see the baggage that you are referring to, his critics were accusing him for all sort of fictitious thiefing, but it is eight months since a new government has taken over, and what do we see..they have appointed all sorts of audits and yet........they cannot find anything to pin him down and get a conviction. If what you guys are saying have any truth in it, then he would have been languishing in jail by now.

the most i will say to this is you blind or u get real stupid 

Zed posted:

Jagdeo was not being honest. There were many reasons why rtge PPP lost the elections and they are all attributed to him. 

He ignored the base of the party and surrounded himself with only people who told him what he wanted to hear. People who gave different views were shun. The party work at the core level fell off and the party lost the connection to the people who supported it. Members felt that they did not matter anymore. The PPP became a shell, its membership dwindled and those who stayed were more interested in serving themselves instead of the people. Corruption became a big issue under his presidency and they did not or could not adequately respond to the accusations. Ministers and key party officials became arrogant, they thought the owned the votes of those who voted for them, not realizing that it was a privilege they were accorded. People were seeing the great disparity in wealth and opportunities. They did not practice modern politics and got out worked and out maneuvered. The 2011 elections, they thought wine anf grind wil win them support. In 2015. they thought that Jagdeo will turn things around so gave him the lead. They had years to prepare for the elections they must have known was coming, and did little to solidify their base and reach out. When they went to communities, people asked where they were all the time.  They were delusional, telling themselves how good they were and expect the people to agree. They must blame themselves, not the people who voted against them. 

Excellent observations, Zed. Some of my old-time PPP comrades told me the same thing. More than that, they say that Jagdeo is a polarizing figure in the party. He wreaked division within the PPP and it's not likely that he can unify it. That necessary reform will begin only when members stand up to Jagdeo and demand that he make way for an acceptable leader.

warrior posted:

asj posted:

Django posted:

asj posted:

I take your point Zed, but as for now I do not see anyone on the horizon to run the PPP/C as a leader, so I would go withJagdeo.

He has too much baggage with him as the leader,prepare to see the PPP in the opposition for a very long time.

I do not see the baggage that you are referring to, his critics were accusing him for all sort of fictitious thiefing, but it is eight months since a new government has taken over, and what do we see..they have appointed all sorts of audits and yet........they cannot find anything to pin him down and get a conviction. If what you guys are saying have any truth in it, then he would have been languishing in jail by now.

the most i will say to this is you blind or u get real stupid 

And the least you will say about yourself is that you are blind, stupid and dum.

all the old baggage  from the ppp have to go for the ppp to be a creditable party again.the new members have to start anew by apologizing to the Guyanese people for all the wrong doing the party did under bar-rat and Donald,do not make excuse for their action  

Warrior, the pnc refuses to apologize for 28 years of dictatorship, rigged election, poor management of the economy, decayed social and physical infra-structure, etc. 

Regarding Jagdeo and some of the leaders in the PPP, I cringe when, I hear them criticizing the coalition for somethings that existed under their rule. They have no credibility. Furthermore, much of politics is about perception. Regardless of whether it is true or not that Jagdeo and cohorts were corrupt, the perception of a large segment of the population is that they were corrupt. Too late for them to get the stain off of themselves. The PPP needs to do some soul searching  be honest with itself and restructure for the future. The need to build back the grassroots organizations, put substance in the shell that currently exists, Reach out to other groups in Guyana, build a broad coalition of interests, critically look at what it stands for, understand that each voter is important, and importantly look at leadership. Many think that jagdeo is the solution. No, he is part of the problem. Under his presidency, the PPP  lost its focus and its committment to real change for the working class in Guyana.

TK posted:

asj posted:

Django posted:

asj posted:

I take your point Zed, but as for now I do not see anyone on the horizon to run the PPP/C as a leader, so I would go withJagdeo.

He has too much baggage with him as the leader,prepare to see the PPP in the opposition for a very long time.

I do not see the baggage that you are referring to, his critics were accusing him for all sort of fictitious thiefing, but it is eight months since a new government has taken over, and what do we see..they have appointed all sorts of audits and yet........they cannot find anything to pin him down and get a conviction. If what you guys are saying have any truth in it, then he would have been languishing in jail by now.

They did steal,  but not the way this government thought about it..

You need to go help your buddies in the PNC find the stolen assets.  You seem to know more than everyone, even your new found heros!

TK posted:

Why are you seeing Donald as a scape goat? He is not the main problem. Yes, he could be President today had he governed more responsibly. Had he given in to some of the demands from the majority opposition from 2011. The reason he did not govern responsibly was because Jagdeo was pulling his strings and he did not have the intellectual stamina to take on Jagdeo.

But now it seems Jagdeo still pulling the strings, even of key members in the PNC.  Isn't that something!

asj posted:

I take your point Zed, but as for now I do not see anyone on the horizon to run the PPP/C as a leader, so I would go with Jagdeo.

REALLY! Man they got some real dumbass PPP people then if all you can come up with is that dam sleaze bag.

Zed posted:

Warrior, the pnc refuses to apologize for 28 years of dictatorship, rigged election, poor management of the economy, decayed social and physical infra-structure, etc. 

Gilbakka posted:

Zed posted:

Jagdeo was not being honest. There were many reasons why rtge PPP lost the elections and they are all attributed to him. 

He ignored the base of the party and surrounded himself with only people who told him what he wanted to hear. People who gave different views were shun. The party work at the core level fell off and the party lost the connection to the people who supported it. Members felt that they did not matter anymore. The PPP became a shell, its membership dwindled and those who stayed were more interested in serving themselves instead of the people. Corruption became a big issue under his presidency and they did not or could not adequately respond to the accusations. Ministers and key party officials became arrogant, they thought the owned the votes of those who voted for them, not realizing that it was a privilege they were accorded. People were seeing the great disparity in wealth and opportunities. They did not practice modern politics and got out worked and out maneuvered. The 2011 elections, they thought wine anf grind wil win them support. In 2015. they thought that Jagdeo will turn things around so gave him the lead. They had years to prepare for the elections they must have known was coming, and did little to solidify their base and reach out. When they went to communities, people asked where they were all the time.  They were delusional, telling themselves how good they were and expect the people to agree. They must blame themselves, not the people who voted against them. 

Excellent observations, Zed. Some of my old-time PPP comrades told me the same thing. More than that, they say that Jagdeo is a polarizing figure in the party. He wreaked division within the PPP and it's not likely that he can unify it. That necessary reform will begin only when members stand up to Jagdeo and demand that he make way for an acceptable leader.

Don't know why you all insist that the loss of the PPP is due solely to its loss of its base.

FACT.  The PPP won 30k MORE votes in its strongholds than it won in 2011.  If we assume that all that mattered was whipping up votes from its base, then the PPP would have won handily.

What happened that the PPP didn't cater for is that there was record turnout in PNC strongholds as well.  Had Jagdeo been less arrogant to poor black people, maybe they might have done what they have been doing for the last 14 years, and that is not voting.

But vote they did, and this together with a small Indo cross over was all that was needed.

I suggest that until the PPP addresses why 80% of the mixed population, these being people who do NOT have a strong racial/ethnic affiliation, reject them, it will lose.  The mixed population is the most rapidly growing voter base, and any that ignore this are being quite foolish.

baseman posted:

TK posted:

Why are you seeing Donald as a scape goat? He is not the main problem. Yes, he could be President today had he governed more responsibly. Had he given in to some of the demands from the majority opposition from 2011. The reason he did not govern responsibly was because Jagdeo was pulling his strings and he did not have the intellectual stamina to take on Jagdeo.

But now it seems Jagdeo still pulling the strings, even of key members in the PNC.  Isn't that something!

The PNC is so overjoyed that Jagdeo is back.  The bytch has kept all the Indos who seriously hate him off the PPP farm. He also keeps those non Indians who are disappointed with Granger away from the PPP because they hate Jagdeo more.

Pity your Indo KKK blinders prevent you from understanding this.

Zed posted:

., Reach out to other groups in Guyana, build a broad coalition of interests, .

Why will other groups trust the PPP when they remain led by the Grand Wizard of the Indo KKK, who is still to apologize to Afro Guyanese about how he treated so many of them?

The PPP must adopt a multi ethnic face, and not more incompetent stooges like Americo Selman, and Juan Edghill.  Nagamootoo mightn't have brought in as many Indo votes as he wanted, but he sure did a better job than those two Uncle Tom clowns did in bringing black votes to the PPP.