Some good observations and the powers around the world are not free from culpability but all that is now water under the bridge because no one cares to acknowledge their fault. The burden is now on the Muslim community to either fix it or carry the full effect of it. That is unfortunate but the reality.

Saudi's wealth has been good and bad for Muslims. Oil wealth has made it possible for many to observe the hajj with relative comfort but their brand of Islamic rituals is way too extreme. I don't see any corrections coming soon but I and the vast Muslim community can surely use some.

Saudi has billions of dollars invested in Wall street. If they were to pull their money out of Wall street the system will come down. That is the reason why there will be no ban on Muslims in America.

Kari, I've read your opening statement. I confess to possessing inadequate knowledge to contribute meaningfully to the discussion. But it seems to me that the core issue is not religion/Islam but geopolitics and deadly rivalry for control of certain regions and their economic resources. Islam is merely a tool that is misused big time in that geopolitical rivalry. This is my two cents, brother.

The 2 billion Islamic believers do not grasp the tenents as the few men who possess the knowledge of the end-time prophecies. They are all Islamist. It is claimed to be written in their book. Iranians are schooled in anticipation of the events.

It is not surprising that Saudie Arabia is the guardian of Islam. Just a few miles away, Nimrod set up the first world religion of Baal worship in the region. It is ancient, but the beliefs are similar in the demonstration of the ashraft columns. 

My thoughts on this is not to bash Islam but merely to state what is to come according to the muslim clerics.

It is written in the other book, "at the end-times, lucifer and his armies will surge from the Euphrates."

The situation in Iraq does look like it. The religion is in turmoil.

The Kaba is there and that is the only true symbol of Islam.

Seignet my brother, surprise is not an attribute of Saudi Arabia being the guardian of Islam. The Kaa'ba is in Mecca which is in Saudi Arabia, so there is no surprise there.

These "Islamists" with end-time prophesies must feel pretty lonely among the rest of humanity. I'm so glad you provide a great level of comfort to them and counsel the rest of humanity on its inadequate understanding of this "fact".

The world has seen worse than Iraq before. Remember Indonesia in the mid-60s? Remember Cambodia in the 70s? Remember Bosnia and Rwanda in the 90s? These "Islamist" sages weren't hollering end-times then, were they?!

Gilbakka posted:

Kari, I've read your opening statement. I confess to possessing inadequate knowledge to contribute meaningfully to the discussion. But it seems to me that the core issue is not religion/Islam but geopolitics and deadly rivalry for control of certain regions and their economic resources. Islam is merely a tool that is misused big time in that geopolitical rivalry. This is my two cents, brother.

Gilly, with the fall of the Berlin Wall, the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the cessation of the Iron Curtain, proxy wars went out of the window. The US was the only super power. The first Bush was still stuck in the cold war era and thus the cardinal failure to properly disband the Osama bin Laden Mujahedin that fought one proxy war for the US (against the soviets in Afghanistan). In fact oil price was like $11 a barrel in the decade of the 80s and the real economic price should have been $21 if not for Saudi-led, American-influenced OPEC, leading Saddam to think that he lost 3 (millions barrel a day export) x 365 (days in the year) x 10 years (the decade) x $10 = $30 million x 3,650 days = 109 billion US dollars. The Saudis were calling back their war financing, and don't forget the Iraqi Baathist army lost 1 million Sunni men. So both bin Laden (over US troops in the holy land) and Saddam had grievances.

Clinton wisely used US power softly but did its historic humanitarian duty to prevent genocide, albeit late in both Bosnia and Rwanda. He also did not grasp the deep danger posed by the radicals in the Arab world even though he chased bin Laden out of Somalia, or was it the Sudan.

The guy who took the cake though is the Bush son, who was led by Cheney and Rumsfeld. Why did he have to go in to Iraq, for heavens sake?  And the de-baathification? We're still dealing with that in the form of ISIS. The Bush years were premised on the total dominance of American military power to change events. Boy, what a sad reading.

Obama had the benefit of (i) learning the lessons of the past, and (ii) being well-read and having lived in a different culture for a little time. He knows the limit of American military power, but also know its strengths. His one big weakness I'm sure he'd admit to is not taking the Baathist soldiers threat seriously, and it could be because he knew they were secular and not radical, distorted, blasphemers who incorporated the religion of Islam. HE also knew the different tribal loyalties, like he understood that the Crimea id an integral part of mother Russia like Massachusetts is to the US, though he had to act pro-forma and institute sanctions, but no military buildup as the Ukrainians were calling for. Obama's one thing is to have the Arabs themselves sort this out while the US does the minimum necessary. That makes sense as you have to think about the next morning and then there is the uncounted costs.

You wanna know why Obama brought in Iran? It was a move destined to get the Saudis to watch what they're doing with their Wahabbisim and the terrorism in the distorted name of Islam. It's also to let Ntanyahu know he does not have all te US cards in his hands. Know this, the Arabs don't give one piss about the Palestinians. you think ISIS cares too? Look how they don't try that garbage on Israel.

Hillary as President will probably see the Arabs winning the battle against ISIS and the death of this ideology that breeds San Bernadino, Orlando, Brussels, Paris, Ankara, Dacca, etc. We've seen how Al Qaeda's Madrid and London and Bali bombings have ceased. Once this gets settled hopefully early in Hillary's term, we'll have to see how she handles Netanyahu and if Iran will be a big help to her. But she gotta keep the Saudi Wahabbi monster in check. End-times? Gimme a break!

The Saud Royal family had an association with extreme Islam going back centuries. It did not start in 1979. In fact it was followers of radical Islam that helped the Saud family to regain their kingdom when they were overthrown and driven from Arabia into exile by the Turks and the Al Rashid family 

Prashad posted:

Saudi has billions of dollars invested in Wall street. If they were to pull their money out of Wall street the system will come down. That is the reason why there will be no ban on Muslims in America.

straight up bunk.

Gilbakka posted:

Kari, I've read your opening statement. I confess to possessing inadequate knowledge to contribute meaningfully to the discussion. But it seems to me that the core issue is not religion/Islam but geopolitics and deadly rivalry for control of certain regions and their economic resources. Islam is merely a tool that is misused big time in that geopolitical rivalry. This is my two cents, brother.

I wrote on these things here for over a decade only to be reduculed and called anti Islam. The Saudis used their money like Christians use missionary work, to spread their brand of islam. You see it in guyana. Saudi trained clerics returning and changing the faith. We never had burka but in ever Muslim gathering you will see a portion of the congregants to be fully burkaized. It is not about power and possessing economic resources but possessing minds.

Wahabs are the gravest danger to humanity as we know it since Hitler.  That entire sect needs to be wiped out and replaced with a moderate ideology.  Islam will be better served without this scourge.  We are headed for Armageddon and we cannot afford to lose.  All the powers of the world will need to unite and destroy this cancer at its source and all they way within our own societies.  They are already among us. 

Stormborn posted:

Gilbakka posted:

Kari, I've read your opening statement. I confess to possessing inadequate knowledge to contribute meaningfully to the discussion. But it seems to me that the core issue is not religion/Islam but geopolitics and deadly rivalry for control of certain regions and their economic resources. Islam is merely a tool that is misused big time in that geopolitical rivalry. This is my two cents, brother.

I wrote on these things here for over a decade only to be reduculed and called anti Islam. The Saudis used their money like Christians use missionary work, to spread their brand of islam. You see it in guyana. Saudi trained clerics returning and changing the faith. We never had burka but in ever Muslim gathering you will see a portion of the congregants to be fully burkaized. It is not about power and possessing economic resources but possessing minds.

 

 

I agree. They are doing it on a large scale in Pakistan.

ba$eman posted:

Wahabs are the gravest danger to humanity as we know it since Hitler.  That entire sect needs to be wiped out and replaced with a moderate ideology.  Islam will be better served without this scourge.  We are headed for Armageddon and we cannot afford to lose.  All the powers of the world will need to unite and destroy this cancer at its source and all they way within our own societies.  They are already among us. 

Careful there. Some ayatollah or mullah will issue a fatwa for your head.

 Stormborn posted:

I wrote on these things here for over a decade only to be reduculed and called anti Islam. The Saudis used their money like Christians use missionary work, to spread their brand of islam. You see it in guyana. Saudi trained clerics returning and changing the faith. We never had burka but in ever Muslim gathering you will see a portion of the congregants to be fully burkaized. It is not about power and possessing economic resources but possessing minds.

 

 

Guyanese Muslims are being indoctinated with Saudi/Wahab hatred. Don't fool youselves, many right here on this board have mothers, sisters and wives fully or almost fully burkaized. The USA should ban this type of wear as criminals can use it to shield their identity.  Any garment which blocks the face permanently should be banned.

Ok, in winter we use scarves, dont use that as an excuse for full-face burkas!

To be honest I wonder how in Guyana the Burka thing goes. Is it a recipe to faint from the heat???  I guess it may be the sacrifice for salvation.

Nehru posted:

To be honest I wonder how in Guyana the Burka thing goes. Is it a recipe to faint from the heat???  I guess it may be the sacrifice for salvation.

Doubt, Saudi is hot rass.  Commitment to Allah bai, no heat or cold too much!

Saudi Arabia is the Vatican City for all Muslims around the world. Money and power get the better of the greedy. Mosques around the world were built with blood money. Terrorist organization are funded with blood money. Mecca is becoming commercialized and also funded with blood money.

Prince posted:

Saudi Arabia is the Vatican City for all Muslims around the world. Money and power get the better of the greedy. Mosques around the world were built with blood money. Terrorist organization are funded with blood money. Mecca is becoming commercialized and also funded with blood money.

These evil doers need to be taken down a notch or two!!

Last Friday on Bill Maher show a former British Parliamentarian said it well about Saudi Arabia. Take a look at it for Al Yuh selves.  She really hit the nail on the head.

Saudi Arabia has a massive problem on its hands now. Plenty of young men but soon no jobs. It would be very interesting how the kingdom handles this problem.