Skip to main content

FM
Former Member

The Linden electricity rate increase issue

JULY 15, 2012 | BY  | FILED UNDER AFC COLUMNFEATURES / COLUMNISTS 
By Gerhard Ramsaroop

Historically, the bauxite industry in Linden had to produce excess electricity in order to facilitate the periodic peak operation of the famous walking draglines.  The excess was then fed into the community and for many years too, also into the national grid supporting the rest of the country.


When the bauxite industry was allowed to decline by both the PNC and PPP, the power plant went with it.  Since 1992, the PPP Government invested more than G$48 billion in GPL that was targeted at most of Guyana except for Linden, where instead they opted for privatisation.  As a result, the power plant was run down further, including a turbine exploding.  The Government eventually obtained a settlement, but none of this money ever made it back into the plant.

 

In 2006, the plant was given to the Chinese company, BOSAI, as a write-off.  Since then, the people of Linden have been at their mercy, because the PPP gave BOSAI the power to do whatever it wants.  First, they allowed BOSAI to set electricity prices outside of the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) which is totally wrong, because the PUC is the national electricity regulator.  This cannot be allowed to continue, and electricity pricing in Linden must be placed within the remit of the PUC forthwith.


Second, BOSAI took advantage of the freedom from regulation and charged an exorbitant rate for surplus electricity.  To correct this situation, the Government agreed to a subsidy, but given their record on corruption, it is not inconceivable there is some impropriety here.


This practice by BOSAI must stop.  They must say what they charge and the basis on which they have arrived at that charge.  Since the electricity is produced principally for BOSAI’s own use, the applicable pricing policy should be marginal pricing, meaning only for the cost of producing additional power, and not total cost pricing.  In order to prevent a heavy rate increase in electricity, the Government must renegotiate with BOSAI along these lines.  BOSAI must also be held to its commitment to install heavy fuel generators which will further lower costs.


BOSAI also buys fuel duty-free, and given GPL’s massive losses of 32%, their cost of production has to be lower.  GPL produces at a cost of G$30 per kWH, while BOSAI charges Linden almost double that! Linden is not connected to the national grid either.  So it makes no sense to compare Linden’s rate with GPL.


In all of this, the fact must not escape that under the PPP, Linden has become an even more depressed town, with unemployment estimated at over 70%.  Moreover, despite a loss in jobs in the bauxite industry, from several thousand to only a few hundred today, with very little alternative job opportunities being created, Linden still suffers from severe dust pollution from the industry. Nowhere else in Guyana is there pollution of that magnitude, and it is international norm that there be some amelioration by the offending industry.  This must also be included in the renegotiations with BOSAI.It is obvious that the PPP is more interested in BOSAI that the people of Linden.


Development in Linden by the PPP, particularly under the Jagdeo administration, has been severely wanting.  Major contracts are issued to contractors friendly to the PPP, who are not from Linden, and who hire very little of the local labour force and procure very little in the town.  As such, the residents from Linden receive little benefits from the huge profits made by these outside contractors, whose work is often of the poorest quality. Had Lindeners been meaningfully involved in these works over the last two decades, Linden today would have had major contractors hiring more Lindeners, leading to economic growth and development in the town.


Further, Government initiatives such as the Linden Economic Advancement Programme (LEAP) only produced minor results.  For example, LEAP was intended as an incubator for small businesses such as computer assembly, but that never took off, because the Government chose to import computers from its favoured “barber shop dealers” for schools and Government agencies in the region.  So when the PPP boasts of how much they have spent in Linden, while true, it has resulted in little actual development.  Moreover, the PPP has denied Linden access to more than one TV station.


The PPP suddenly increasing the rate of electricity clearly resulted from their massive defeat in Region 10 (Linden) in the last elections. It was political retribution against Lindeners. We must be clear in saying that nothing about rate increases in electricity for Lindeners was mentioned by the PPP prior to the election.  The PPP ought to know that it was the same bauxite workers who had joined with the sugar workers and stood up against Forbes Burnham.


Predictably, the PPP put a racial spin on the issue, saying the opposition wants to remove the subsidy from the Guyana Sugar Corporation (GuySuCo) which employs mostly Indo-Guyanese, while demanding the subsidy remain for Linden, a primarily African-Guyanese community.  This of course, is a heinous lie as the AFC only called for the corrupt and inept management of GuySuCo to be changed.  The AFC voted for and fully supports the G$4 billion subsidy offered to GuySuCo to preserve the jobs of the working class in the sugar belt.


The reference to the higher rate of electricity outside of Linden has racial overtones as well.  The PPP has been blatantly spreading lies and hatred by telling Indo-Guyanese that their resources are being used to subsidise electricity for African-Guyanese who live in Linden. However, the fact is that the rest of Guyana, including African-Guyanese enclaves such as Hopetown, Buxton and Dem Amstel, is subsidising Linden, just like all of Guyana, including Linden, is subsidising GuySuCo and its failed US$200 million white elephant Skeldon Sugar Factory. Conveniently too, they leave out the fact that the high rate is because of GPL’s extraordinary losses and line transmitting inefficiencies which are costing the taxpayers in excess of $5 billion annually.


So the fact is not that Lindeners are paying too little, but that the rest of the country is paying too much for electricity, because business friends and relatives of the PPP cabal are exempted from paying electricity.


The AFC will not support the increased rates in electricity at Linden until the PPP regime provides jobs for its people and the region becomes developed. In our Action Plan, the AFC had plans to make Linden into one of the new Economic Frontier towns, and we urge the PPP to put these ideas into action by aggressively pursuing the following:
•    Foreign investment from a reputable company to develop an alumina plant;
•    Develop the 200,000 hectares of the intermediate savannahs for citrus, legumes, vegetables, cattle,  etc. As the country’s second frontier for agricultural developments;
•    Intensify block-making capability using lateritic bauxite soil to support the housing industry;
•    Promote furniture manufacturing and value added wood products;
•    Establish a University of Guyana campus in Linden, offering courses relevant to the developmental needs of Regions 7, 8, 9, and 10.

 

Finally, we urge the PPP immediately desist from engaging in divisive politics, including playing the race card, and get down to the business of governing our country, for all of our people, under this new dispensation.

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Simple that Linden in a mainly Afro-Guyanese enclave does not make it a race.  I agree with some criticism that the PPP should help stimulate the economy of Linden.  Live stock farming would be good.

 

Question, does Lindeners pay a higher rate that the rest of Guyana?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken, last election thought AFC came in 3rd behind the PPP.  Seems they didn't buy into the AFC agenda.

FM

Thank you Gerhard for providing insight and perspective on this contentious issue which is being shamelessly exploited by PPP scoundrels [and their retinue of ignorant demagogues and sly racists] for cheap political gain . . . these bums look only to their own unfettered power, and would willingly destroy Guyana to 'preserve' it.

 

The AFC is, admirably, taking the political risk of tackling a subject whose complexity is not easily addressed in an easily-digested slogan.

 

FM
Originally Posted by baseman:

Simple that Linden in a mainly Afro-Guyanese enclave does not make it a race.  I agree with some criticism that the PPP should help stimulate the economy of Linden.  Live stock farming would be good.

 

Question, does Lindeners pay a higher rate that the rest of Guyana?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken, last election thought AFC came in 3rd behind the PPP.  Seems they didn't buy into the AFC agenda.

You missed the point of the article, didn't you?

 

The point is that Linden receives electricity from BOSAI, which generates principally for itself, just as the power plant in the old days did as well.  Linden receives the surplus of this generation, and therefore should only pay for the extra costs in generating this surplus, and not for the total cost of producing electricity.  Since this does not apply anywhere else in Guyana, whether they pay more or less than the rest of the country is irrelevant!  Whether they voted for or against the AFC is irrelevant too!  

 

What is relevant is that these are Guyanese being treated unfairly!  Moreover, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they suffer from the effects of massive pollution from an industry that no longer employs them on a large scale.  Even if the pollution is lessened now, the effects will still be felt for years to come!  

 

Also, and again, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they are denied access to more than one TV station.  And which TV station do they have to put up with?  Yes, the PPP's propaganda station!!

 

FM
Originally Posted by redux:

Thank you Gerhard for providing insight and perspective on this contentious issue which is being shamelessly exploited by PPP scoundrels [and their retinue of ignorant demagogues and sly racists] for cheap political gain . . . these bums look only to their unfettered power, and would willingly destroy Guyana to 'preserve' it.

 

The AFC is, admirably, taking the political risk of tackling a subject whose complexity is not easily addressed in an easily-digested slogan.

 

Thank you, brother.

FM

gmoney is a political opportunist famous for his cardboard computer idea. This fellow talking through his anus, does anyone really believe that gmoney would rather continue subsidies to Linden if political opportunity was not exploitable? 

FM
Originally Posted by BGurd_See:

gmoney is a political opportunist famous for his cardboard computer idea. This fellow talking through his anus, does anyone really believe that gmoney would rather continue subsidies to Linden if political opportunity was not exploitable? 

like I said . . . ask someone to break it down to easily digestible sound bites so it's not too hard on your system.

 

Complexity is not your friend

FM
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:

Simple that Linden in a mainly Afro-Guyanese enclave does not make it a race.  I agree with some criticism that the PPP should help stimulate the economy of Linden.  Live stock farming would be good.

 

Question, does Lindeners pay a higher rate that the rest of Guyana?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken, last election thought AFC came in 3rd behind the PPP.  Seems they didn't buy into the AFC agenda.

You missed the point of the article, didn't you?

 

The point is that Linden receives electricity from BOSAI, which generates principally for itself, just as the power plant in the old days did as well.  Linden receives the surplus of this generation, and therefore should only pay for the extra costs in generating this surplus, and not for the total cost of producing electricity.  Since this does not apply anywhere else in Guyana, whether they pay more or less than the rest of the country is irrelevant!  Whether they voted for or against the AFC is irrelevant too!  

 

What is relevant is that these are Guyanese being treated unfairly!  Moreover, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they suffer from the effects of massive pollution from an industry that no longer employs them on a large scale.  Even if the pollution is lessened now, the effects will still be felt for years to come!  

 

Also, and again, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they are denied access to more than one TV station.  And which TV station do they have to put up with?  Yes, the PPP's propaganda station!!

 

Sorry, it's relevant, the Govt should not subsidize Linden except if their electricity costs, for the reasons you stated, is above above national average.  We can make looong rigamarole arguments, but the basic question, are Lindeners paying an unfair high charge vs the national benchmark.  The fact that there was surplus given cheaply due to other reasons is no longer relevant.  They are no longer on a "incremental" costing model, someone has to pay and it has to be those who consume.

 

All the other political propaganda issues are irrelevant to the specific question at hand.  They should be taken up on their relevant merits not bundled with the electricity issue.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by baseman:

Simple that Linden in a mainly Afro-Guyanese enclave does not make it a race.  I agree with some criticism that the PPP should help stimulate the economy of Linden.  Live stock farming would be good.

 

Question, does Lindeners pay a higher rate that the rest of Guyana?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken, last election thought AFC came in 3rd behind the PPP.  Seems they didn't buy into the AFC agenda.

 

Perhaps if  the people of Linden had been P.P.P. supporters, this electricity subsidy would have remained intact.  The PPP have  nothing to lose by antagonising the electorate by their actions.  The people of Linden, traditionaly are supporters of the A.P.N.U and Uncle Sam knows he is not welcome there.

 

On the question of subsidy, the PPP  Government of Guyana has given Guysicko  subsidies to the tune of 4 Billion Dollars of the Taxpayers money and now subsidizing  the white elephant Skeldon Sugar Factory because their supporters live in that region. On the other hand, Lindeners continue to suffer from the highest rate of unemployment in Guyana due to the spitefull and corrupt PPP/C.

 

We seem to forget that the people of Linden over the years have waved increases in wages for lower electricity rates.

 

Baseman, I agree livestock farming would be good. But, how much piglets and chicks were given to Lindeners by Rob Earth in the past four years to help them get started in livestock farming?

 



 

Mitwah
Originally Posted by Mitwah:
Originally Posted by baseman:

Simple that Linden in a mainly Afro-Guyanese enclave does not make it a race.  I agree with some criticism that the PPP should help stimulate the economy of Linden.  Live stock farming would be good.

 

Question, does Lindeners pay a higher rate that the rest of Guyana?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken, last election thought AFC came in 3rd behind the PPP.  Seems they didn't buy into the AFC agenda.

 

Perhaps if  the people of Linden had been P.P.P. supporters, this electricity subsidy would have remained intact.  The PPP have  nothing to lose by antagonising the electorate by their actions.  The people of Linden, traditionaly are supporters of the A.P.N.U and Uncle Sam knows he is not welcome there.

 

On the question of subsidy, the PPP  Government of Guyana has given Guysicko  subsidies to the tune of 4 Billion Dollars of the Taxpayers money and now subsidizing  the white elephant Skeldon Sugar Factory because their supporters live in that region. On the other hand, Lindeners continue to suffer from the highest rate of unemployment in Guyana due to the spitefull and corrupt PPP/C.

 

We seem to forget that the people of Linden over the years have waved increases in wages for lower electricity rates.

 

Baseman, I agree livestock farming would be good. But, how much piglets and chicks were given to Lindeners by Rob Earth in the past four years to help them get started in livestock farming?

 



 

Simply, it boils down to the same basic question, are they paying more than the rest of Guyana.  If not, then they are not discriminated against.  If BOSAI chose not to give cheap electricity, then that's their choice.

 

BTW, is there some contract binding wage freezes with electricity costs?

FM
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:

Simple that Linden in a mainly Afro-Guyanese enclave does not make it a race.  I agree with some criticism that the PPP should help stimulate the economy of Linden.  Live stock farming would be good.

 

Question, does Lindeners pay a higher rate that the rest of Guyana?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken, last election thought AFC came in 3rd behind the PPP.  Seems they didn't buy into the AFC agenda.

You missed the point of the article, didn't you?

 

The point is that Linden receives electricity from BOSAI, which generates principally for itself, just as the power plant in the old days did as well.  Linden receives the surplus of this generation, and therefore should only pay for the extra costs in generating this surplus, and not for the total cost of producing electricity.  Since this does not apply anywhere else in Guyana, whether they pay more or less than the rest of the country is irrelevant!  Whether they voted for or against the AFC is irrelevant too!  

 

What is relevant is that these are Guyanese being treated unfairly!  Moreover, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they suffer from the effects of massive pollution from an industry that no longer employs them on a large scale.  Even if the pollution is lessened now, the effects will still be felt for years to come!  

 

Also, and again, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they are denied access to more than one TV station.  And which TV station do they have to put up with?  Yes, the PPP's propaganda station!!

 

Sorry, it's relevant, the Govt should not subsidize Linden except if their electricity costs, for the reasons you stated, is above above national average.  We can make looong rigamarole arguments, but the basic question, are Lindeners paying an unfair high charge vs the national benchmark.  The fact that there was surplus given cheaply due to other reasons is no longer relevant.  They are no longer on a "incremental" costing model, someone has to pay and it has to be those who consume.

 

All the other political propaganda issues are irrelevant to the specific question at hand.  They should be taken up on their relevant merits not bundled with the electricity issue.

The point is, baseman, had BOSAI not been allowed to do as it wants, there would be no need for a subsidy!  The point is the manner in which electricity is produced in Linden allows the community to benefit from it more than from that produced by GPL!

 

Isn't it the same model with the Skeldon Sugar Factory when it was supposed to be feeding its excess into the Berbice grid????  What if they were actually managing to produce that excess as planned, and then applied full-cost pricing???  

 

Stop with the double standards!  You fully well understand what marginal pricing is, and that is fully rational to apply it to Linden, but yet you still try to obfuscate.  Why??? Baseman, why??

 

You are not stupid, and I can only conclude you are deliberately being obtuse here...

FM
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Mitwah:
Originally Posted by baseman:

Simple that Linden in a mainly Afro-Guyanese enclave does not make it a race.  I agree with some criticism that the PPP should help stimulate the economy of Linden.  Live stock farming would be good.

 

Question, does Lindeners pay a higher rate that the rest of Guyana?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken, last election thought AFC came in 3rd behind the PPP.  Seems they didn't buy into the AFC agenda.

 

Perhaps if  the people of Linden had been P.P.P. supporters, this electricity subsidy would have remained intact.  The PPP have  nothing to lose by antagonising the electorate by their actions.  The people of Linden, traditionaly are supporters of the A.P.N.U and Uncle Sam knows he is not welcome there.

 

On the question of subsidy, the PPP  Government of Guyana has given Guysicko  subsidies to the tune of 4 Billion Dollars of the Taxpayers money and now subsidizing  the white elephant Skeldon Sugar Factory because their supporters live in that region. On the other hand, Lindeners continue to suffer from the highest rate of unemployment in Guyana due to the spitefull and corrupt PPP/C.

 

We seem to forget that the people of Linden over the years have waved increases in wages for lower electricity rates.

 

Baseman, I agree livestock farming would be good. But, how much piglets and chicks were given to Lindeners by Rob Earth in the past four years to help them get started in livestock farming?

 



 

Simply, it boils down to the same basic question, are they paying more than the rest of Guyana.  If not, then they are not discriminated against.  If BOSAI chose not to give cheap electricity, then that's their choice.

 

BTW, is there some contract binding wage freezes with electricity costs?

What a bullshit statement to make!!  Particularly in light of all the negative externalities Linden experiences from BOSAI's operation, which today employs less than 500, when only a few years ago it was a few thousand!

 

Are you saying that we should be so grateful to foreign investors as to remove all social obligations from them?  And in this case, it is not even as if you are asking them for a favour!  I said marginal pricing, not FREE!!!  

 

Tell me how marginal pricing does not apply in this case.  Please, please explain it or I can only conclude your arguments are steeped in racism.

FM
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:

Simple that Linden in a mainly Afro-Guyanese enclave does not make it a race.  I agree with some criticism that the PPP should help stimulate the economy of Linden.  Live stock farming would be good.

 

Question, does Lindeners pay a higher rate that the rest of Guyana?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken, last election thought AFC came in 3rd behind the PPP.  Seems they didn't buy into the AFC agenda.

You missed the point of the article, didn't you?

 

The point is that Linden receives electricity from BOSAI, which generates principally for itself, just as the power plant in the old days did as well.  Linden receives the surplus of this generation, and therefore should only pay for the extra costs in generating this surplus, and not for the total cost of producing electricity.  Since this does not apply anywhere else in Guyana, whether they pay more or less than the rest of the country is irrelevant!  Whether they voted for or against the AFC is irrelevant too!  

 

What is relevant is that these are Guyanese being treated unfairly!  Moreover, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they suffer from the effects of massive pollution from an industry that no longer employs them on a large scale.  Even if the pollution is lessened now, the effects will still be felt for years to come!  

 

Also, and again, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they are denied access to more than one TV station.  And which TV station do they have to put up with?  Yes, the PPP's propaganda station!!

 

Sorry, it's relevant, the Govt should not subsidize Linden except if their electricity costs, for the reasons you stated, is above above national average.  We can make looong rigamarole arguments, but the basic question, are Lindeners paying an unfair high charge vs the national benchmark.  The fact that there was surplus given cheaply due to other reasons is no longer relevant.  They are no longer on a "incremental" costing model, someone has to pay and it has to be those who consume.

 

All the other political propaganda issues are irrelevant to the specific question at hand.  They should be taken up on their relevant merits not bundled with the electricity issue.

The point is, baseman, had BOSAI not been allowed to do as it wants, there would be no need for a subsidy!  The point is the manner in which electricity is produced in Linden allows the community to benefit from it more than from that produced by GPL!

 

Isn't it the same model with the Skeldon Sugar Factory when it was supposed to be feeding its excess into the Berbice grid????  What if they were actually managing to produce that excess as planned, and then applied full-cost pricing???  

 

Stop with the double standards!  You fully well understand what marginal pricing is, and that is fully rational to apply it to Linden, but yet you still try to obfuscate.  Why??? Baseman, why??

 

You are not stupid, and I can only conclude you are deliberately being obtuse here...

No need to get personal and testy.  We cross the Skeldon plan issue when that time comes.  Skeldon pushing excess electricity onto the national grid is a diversion.  Would the people around Skeldon get preferential pricing for this?  The issue of how BOSAI want's to run it's operations is a matter for them.  The point is the GoG and rest of Guyana should not subsidize anything out of sync with national average.  Why, because I still don't get the logic of you position.  It's plain cheap political pandering.

 

Where is the "double standard".  Unless Lindeners are charged above national average, it not double standard, you are mixed up with definitions.

FM

Baseman, are you aware too that GPL's customer base is 151,000, and Linden's is only 9,000?  Are you aware that GPL's losses also, are in excess of $5B annually, more than double the subsidy to Linden, and that more than half of that loss (54%) is due to theft?  And that bulk of that theft is done by big ones associated with the PPP???  If the PPP wants to save funds shouldn't they target GPL first and foremost, and thereby benefiting over 150,000 people???  

 

And by the way, the bulk of those GPL customers are Indian!  Look how the PPP has obfuscated the issue thanks to people's ingrained racism, and who end up advocating against themselves!!

FM
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:

Simple that Linden in a mainly Afro-Guyanese enclave does not make it a race.  I agree with some criticism that the PPP should help stimulate the economy of Linden.  Live stock farming would be good.

 

Question, does Lindeners pay a higher rate that the rest of Guyana?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken, last election thought AFC came in 3rd behind the PPP.  Seems they didn't buy into the AFC agenda.

You missed the point of the article, didn't you?

 

The point is that Linden receives electricity from BOSAI, which generates principally for itself, just as the power plant in the old days did as well.  Linden receives the surplus of this generation, and therefore should only pay for the extra costs in generating this surplus, and not for the total cost of producing electricity.  Since this does not apply anywhere else in Guyana, whether they pay more or less than the rest of the country is irrelevant!  Whether they voted for or against the AFC is irrelevant too!  

 

What is relevant is that these are Guyanese being treated unfairly!  Moreover, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they suffer from the effects of massive pollution from an industry that no longer employs them on a large scale.  Even if the pollution is lessened now, the effects will still be felt for years to come!  

 

Also, and again, unlike anywhere else in Guyana, they are denied access to more than one TV station.  And which TV station do they have to put up with?  Yes, the PPP's propaganda station!!

 

Sorry, it's relevant, the Govt should not subsidize Linden except if their electricity costs, for the reasons you stated, is above above national average.  We can make looong rigamarole arguments, but the basic question, are Lindeners paying an unfair high charge vs the national benchmark.  The fact that there was surplus given cheaply due to other reasons is no longer relevant.  They are no longer on a "incremental" costing model, someone has to pay and it has to be those who consume.

 

All the other political propaganda issues are irrelevant to the specific question at hand.  They should be taken up on their relevant merits not bundled with the electricity issue.

The point is, baseman, had BOSAI not been allowed to do as it wants, there would be no need for a subsidy!  The point is the manner in which electricity is produced in Linden allows the community to benefit from it more than from that produced by GPL!

 

Isn't it the same model with the Skeldon Sugar Factory when it was supposed to be feeding its excess into the Berbice grid????  What if they were actually managing to produce that excess as planned, and then applied full-cost pricing???  

 

Stop with the double standards!  You fully well understand what marginal pricing is, and that is fully rational to apply it to Linden, but yet you still try to obfuscate.  Why??? Baseman, why??

 

You are not stupid, and I can only conclude you are deliberately being obtuse here...

No need to get personal and testy.  We cross the Skeldon plan issue when that time comes.  Skeldon pushing excess electricity onto the national grid is a diversion.  Would the people around Skeldon get preferential pricing for this?  The issue of how BOSAI want's to run it's operations is a matter for them.  The point is the GoG and rest of Guyana should not subsidize anything out of sync with national average.  Why, because I still don't get the logic of you position.  It's plain cheap political pandering.

 

Where is the "double standard".  Unless Lindeners are charged above national average, it not double standard, you are mixed up with definitions.

There you go obfuscating again.  Where did I say preferential pricing??  I am referring to marginal pricing, which would be the model applied to Skeldon.  According to your argument though, Skeldon would be within its rights to apply full-cost pricing, yes or no?  And if they did, how would that go down with you?

FM

Since Linden has been experiencing cheap electricity as a benefit from the Bauxite Industry for so many years, a lot of electrical equipment is in use, including electric welders and electric stoves, more than anywhere else in Guyana.  Shouldn't consideration be given to that too?

 

A sudden removal of the subsidy is most unconscionable and inhumane.  Perverting this is that the subsidy was only benefiting BOSAI on the backs of taxpayers, since marginal pricing is what was supposed to be applied in the first place.  Today the PPP is still ensuring that BOSAI benefits, but now squarely on the backs of Lindeners who have to contend with minimal employment from BOSAI and continued dust pollution, notwithstanding the installation of one of the dust control systems.

FM

It appears that the basic MO of the AFC is to invent scandals in order to call attention to itself. The humane thing would be for all Guyanese to pay roughly the same rates for electricity. In areas which are economically depressed, the government should built infrastructure to encourage economic development. If that is not a realistic proposal for a given area, the government should build infrastructure elsewhere and encourage people to re-locate.

FM
Originally Posted by Henry:

In areas which are economically depressed, the government should built infrastructure to encourage economic development. If that is not a realistic proposal for a given area, the government should build infrastructure elsewhere and encourage people to re-locate.

and . . . when YOU relocate back from this alternate [ideal] universe, what would be your "humane" recommendation for the people of Linden in real-world [today] Guyana?

FM
Originally Posted by Henry:

It appears that the basic MO of the AFC is to invent scandals in order to call attention to itself. The humane thing would be for all Guyanese to pay roughly the same rates for electricity. In areas which are economically depressed, the government should built infrastructure to encourage economic development. If that is not a realistic proposal for a given area, the government should build infrastructure elsewhere and encourage people to re-locate.

What a stupid thing to say!  Where there are situations such as in Linden, where the operations of an industry can lead to benefiting a community at a marginal cost, then why should it be automatic that that community pays like the rest of the country?  Moreover, especially where there are negative externalities stemming from the industry, as there are in Linden, that community should benefit more than others, yes or no?  Further, the rest of the country is paying too much for electricity primarily because of theft!  Theft represents 54% of GPL's 31.6% losses, or 17.1% of the total losses.  14.5% are technical, meaning inefficiencies in the distribution system.

 

So where is the logical linkage of Linden to the rest of the country, Uncle Henry?  And if you cannot establish a logical linkage, then it could lead to the conclusion that your statement is race-based.

FM
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:

 

Sorry, it's relevant, the Govt should not subsidize Linden except if their electricity costs, for the reasons you stated, is above above national average.  We can make looong rigamarole arguments, but the basic question, are Lindeners paying an unfair high charge vs the national benchmark.  The fact that there was surplus given cheaply due to other reasons is no longer relevant.  They are no longer on a "incremental" costing model, someone has to pay and it has to be those who consume.

 

All the other political propaganda issues are irrelevant to the specific question at hand.  They should be taken up on their relevant merits not bundled with the electricity issue.

The point is, baseman, had BOSAI not been allowed to do as it wants, there would be no need for a subsidy!  The point is the manner in which electricity is produced in Linden allows the community to benefit from it more than from that produced by GPL!

 

Isn't it the same model with the Skeldon Sugar Factory when it was supposed to be feeding its excess into the Berbice grid????  What if they were actually managing to produce that excess as planned, and then applied full-cost pricing???  

 

Stop with the double standards!  You fully well understand what marginal pricing is, and that is fully rational to apply it to Linden, but yet you still try to obfuscate.  Why??? Baseman, why??

 

You are not stupid, and I can only conclude you are deliberately being obtuse here...

No need to get personal and testy.  We cross the Skeldon plan issue when that time comes.  Skeldon pushing excess electricity onto the national grid is a diversion.  Would the people around Skeldon get preferential pricing for this?  The issue of how BOSAI want's to run it's operations is a matter for them.  The point is the GoG and rest of Guyana should not subsidize anything out of sync with national average.  Why, because I still don't get the logic of you position.  It's plain cheap political pandering.

 

Where is the "double standard".  Unless Lindeners are charged above national average, it not double standard, you are mixed up with definitions.

There you go obfuscating again.  Where did I say preferential pricing??  I am referring to marginal pricing, which would be the model applied to Skeldon.  According to your argument though, Skeldon would be within its rights to apply full-cost pricing, yes or no?  And if they did, how would that go down with you?

Gerhard, you position is porous and irrational.  Marginal pricing IS preferential pricing, especially if you ask the rest of the nation to subsidize it.  Sorry cut it which way you want, the Govt is correct in it's position unless there is some other mitigating factor, which I don't think there is.  The arrangement with Skeldon and the Govt is a different matter.  If the Govt allowed the surrounding villages to get Skeldon's marginal pricing, then Linden has a point.  Until then, sorry, you on the losing side and just playing cheap politics.

FM
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:

 

Sorry, it's relevant, the Govt should not subsidize Linden except if their electricity costs, for the reasons you stated, is above above national average.  We can make looong rigamarole arguments, but the basic question, are Lindeners paying an unfair high charge vs the national benchmark.  The fact that there was surplus given cheaply due to other reasons is no longer relevant.  They are no longer on a "incremental" costing model, someone has to pay and it has to be those who consume.

 

All the other political propaganda issues are irrelevant to the specific question at hand.  They should be taken up on their relevant merits not bundled with the electricity issue.

The point is, baseman, had BOSAI not been allowed to do as it wants, there would be no need for a subsidy!  The point is the manner in which electricity is produced in Linden allows the community to benefit from it more than from that produced by GPL!

 

Isn't it the same model with the Skeldon Sugar Factory when it was supposed to be feeding its excess into the Berbice grid????  What if they were actually managing to produce that excess as planned, and then applied full-cost pricing???  

 

Stop with the double standards!  You fully well understand what marginal pricing is, and that is fully rational to apply it to Linden, but yet you still try to obfuscate.  Why??? Baseman, why??

 

You are not stupid, and I can only conclude you are deliberately being obtuse here...

No need to get personal and testy.  We cross the Skeldon plan issue when that time comes.  Skeldon pushing excess electricity onto the national grid is a diversion.  Would the people around Skeldon get preferential pricing for this?  The issue of how BOSAI want's to run it's operations is a matter for them.  The point is the GoG and rest of Guyana should not subsidize anything out of sync with national average.  Why, because I still don't get the logic of you position.  It's plain cheap political pandering.

 

Where is the "double standard".  Unless Lindeners are charged above national average, it not double standard, you are mixed up with definitions.

There you go obfuscating again.  Where did I say preferential pricing??  I am referring to marginal pricing, which would be the model applied to Skeldon.  According to your argument though, Skeldon would be within its rights to apply full-cost pricing, yes or no?  And if they did, how would that go down with you?

Gerhard, you position is porous and irrational.  Marginal pricing IS preferential pricing, especially if you ask the rest of the nation to subsidize it.  Sorry cut it which way you want, the Govt is correct in it's position unless there is some other mitigating factor, which I don't think there is.  The arrangement with Skeldon and the Govt is a different matter.  If the Govt allowed the surrounding villages to get Skeldon's marginal pricing, then Linden has a point.  Until then, sorry, you on the losing side and just playing cheap politics.

How could marginal pricing be preferential pricing?  The whole idea behind the excess electricity was to benefit the company generating it!  The bauxite industry by itself needs excess capacity for the periodic functioning of heavy electrical equipment - though granted, not as much as before with the decommissioning of the walking draglines.  It is a benefit to the company to be able to sell the excess when it is not needed.

 

By the way, I am not arguing that the marginal pricing be subsidised - another misinterpretation by you, and I hope not deliberate again.  I am saying that if marginal pricing is applied there may be no need for a subsidy.  And even if there is still a need for a small subsidy after that, it should come from BOSAI itself to compensate for the dust pollution.  Even with the implementation of the dust collectors, Linden suffered for 6 years under BOSAI already and by the time all the collectors are operational it will be a few more years.

 

Again, I am concluding that you are being deliberately obtuse here by comparing GPL to BOSAI.  GPL is in the business of selling power, BOSAI is not.  BOSAI's excess electricity is but a mere by-product of their operations.  So, explain to me, baseman, how come the community has to pay the full costs of power generation when it is BOSAI that needs it for its own operations.  

 

You are simply accusing me of engaging in cheap politics, while dodging all the various points I am making.  And by the way, the idea behind Skeldon feeding into the grid was to lower the cost of electricity!  So it is marginal pricing they had in mind.  Telling us we have to wait is just plain silly since we all know the white elephant that the factory is.

 

What about the issue of negative externalities.  Why is it you ignore that too?  Unless you can address me point for point, I will form my own conclusions as to the basis of your fallacious arguments.  In the meantime I urge you to pull your head out of your backside as it relates to black people.  We all came from Africa.  We are one species.  My advocacy has nothing to do with reward or race, it is based on what I feel to be right.

 

Moreover, people like you who put Indian interests first, must also understand that when African interests are not looked after, Indian interests in Guyana will suffer as well.  And I am not referring to violence, I am speaking pure economics.  The more spending power we have, the more we will grow economically.  Further, when we all feel more secure and fairly treated, the benefits to society as a whole is enormous.  But once we put one group above or in front of the other, it is recipe for turmoil.

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:

Gerhard, you position is porous and irrational.  Marginal pricing IS preferential pricing, especially if you ask the rest of the nation to subsidize it.  Sorry cut it which way you want, the Govt is correct in it's position unless there is some other mitigating factor, which I don't think there is.  The arrangement with Skeldon and the Govt is a different matter.  If the Govt allowed the surrounding villages to get Skeldon's marginal pricing, then Linden has a point.  Until then, sorry, you on the losing side and just playing cheap politics.

How could marginal pricing be preferential pricing?  The whole idea behind the excess electricity was to benefit the company generating it!  The bauxite industry by itself needs excess capacity for the periodic functioning of heavy electrical equipment - though granted, not as much as before with the decommissioning of the walking draglines.  It is a benefit to the company to be able to sell the excess when it is not needed.

 

By the way, I am not arguing that the marginal pricing be subsidised - another misinterpretation by you, and I hope not deliberate again.  I am saying that if marginal pricing is applied there may be no need for a subsidy.  And even if there is still a need for a small subsidy after that, it should come from BOSAI itself to compensate for the dust pollution.  Even with the implementation of the dust collectors, Linden suffered for 6 years under BOSAI already and by the time all the collectors are operational it will be a few more years.

 

Again, I am concluding that you are being deliberately obtuse here by comparing GPL to BOSAI.  GPL is in the business of selling power, BOSAI is not.  BOSAI's excess electricity is but a mere by-product of their operations.  So, explain to me, baseman, how come the community has to pay the full costs of power generation when it is BOSAI that needs it for its own operations.  

 

You are simply accusing me of engaging in cheap politics, while dodging all the various points I am making.  And by the way, the idea behind Skeldon feeding into the grid was to lower the cost of electricity!  So it is marginal pricing they had in mind.  Telling us we have to wait is just plain silly since we all know the white elephant that the factory is.

 

What about the issue of negative externalities.  Why is it you ignore that too?  Unless you can address me point for point, I will form my own conclusions as to the basis of your fallacious arguments.  In the meantime I urge you to pull your head out of your backside as it relates to black people.  We all came from Africa.  We are one species.  My advocacy has nothing to do with reward or race, it is based on what I feel to be right.

 

Moreover, people like you who put Indian interests first, must also understand that when African interests are not looked after, Indian interests in Guyana will suffer as well.  And I am not referring to violence, I am speaking pure economics.  The more spending power we have, the more we will grow economically.  Further, when we all feel more secure and fairly treated, the benefits to society as a whole is enormous.  But once we put one group above or in front of the other, it is recipe for turmoil.

 

This is the typical "get out of jail card", cry Indian discrimination against Afros then you win.  Is this your way of winning, well, the again, cheap politics.

 

It is preferential as you are asking the Govt and taxpayers to subsidize the costs below the national average.  Gerhard, your various point all come back to one thing, Govt subsidized electricity.

 

I don't need to pull my hear out of anywhere, you need to, you are quick to accuse other Indians of racism when its a matter of equity.  You are into cheap politics and it does not work.  I was critical of the PPP over the issue of Afro representation at key positions.  You can keep up your advocacy, that's your right and I can have my position which is founded in equity.  Once again, if Lindeners are paying a higher costs, then they have point, if not, then they don't.  That has nothing to do with black or Indian, I would say the same if it was an Indian town.  The only part I would concede is a phase-out period to help with adjustment.

 

The Govt should not subsidize "spending power", they should help create the environment for growth and that means stability, security and rule of law.  They should also provide cheaper power, to everyone and industry by working to bring down the overall costs, not selective subsidies.

 

BTW, what ever happened to VAT reduction, that was a ligit beef.

FM

My gosh!  I can only conclude you are deliberately misunderstanding me!  How hard is it for you to understand that I am not advocating for a subsidy????  I am simply saying that if the correct pricing model is applied there may no need for a subsidy!  And moreover, in the event there is need for a small subsidy it should come from BOSAI to mitigate the negative externalities of its operations.

 

How this has to do with what people pay elsewhere boggles my mind!  That is the silliest argument I have ever seen someone of your mental capacity hold on to!  That is why I can only conclude you are driven by racism.  I am sorry, but I cannot see it any other way as I refuse to believe you cannot see my points.

FM
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:

How this has to do with what people pay elsewhere boggles my mind!  That is the silliest argument I have ever seen someone of your mental capacity hold on to!  That is why I can only conclude you are driven by racism.  I am sorry, but I cannot see it any other way as I refuse to believe you cannot see my points.

It is cheap and immoral to suggest that people who disagree with your arguments are "driven by racism" when there is absolutely no evidence that this is the case. You ought to consider the possibility that your arguments are just not that good.

FM
Originally Posted by Henry:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:

How this has to do with what people pay elsewhere boggles my mind!  That is the silliest argument I have ever seen someone of your mental capacity hold on to!  That is why I can only conclude you are driven by racism.  I am sorry, but I cannot see it any other way as I refuse to believe you cannot see my points.

It is cheap and immoral to suggest that people who disagree with your arguments are "driven by racism" when there is absolutely no evidence that this is the case. You ought to consider the possibility that your arguments are just not that good.

History and simple deductive reasoning suggest Gerhard is correct and you are just playing stupid!

 

"cheap and immoral" lies in the eye of the beholder . . . what's your motivation?

FM
Originally Posted by Wally:

A place with so many creeks and water sources nearby should have free electricity.

While water sources can provide electricity, it does not translate in providing the product for free.

FM
Originally Posted by Demerara_Guy:
Originally Posted by Wally:

A place with so many creeks and water sources nearby should have free electricity.

While water sources can provide electricity, it does not translate in providing the product for free.

DG I like your thinking.  But they are poor people who are suffering. 

FM
Originally Posted by Wally:
Originally Posted by Demerara_Guy:
Originally Posted by Wally:

A place with so many creeks and water sources nearby should have free electricity.

While water sources can provide electricity, it does not translate in providing the product for free.

DG I like your thinking.  But they are poor people who are suffering. 

Producing electricity and addressing the challenges of poor individuals are separate issues.

 

I am not aware of any country that delivers power for free.

 

I am aware that in certain specific circumstances, a company may waive all or a part of the cost of a person's use for electricity.

FM
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:

 

How this has to do with what people pay elsewhere boggles my mind!

Because your mind is in the wrong place, so you're boggled.  "Elsewhere" as in rest of Guyana!

 

BTW, what happened to the VAT reduction struggle?  That is one which crosses race and close to the heart of all Guyanese.

FM
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:

 

How this has to do with what people pay elsewhere boggles my mind!

Because your mind is in the wrong place, so you're boggled.  "Elsewhere" as in rest of Guyana!

 

BTW, what happened to the VAT reduction struggle?  That is one which crosses race and close to the heart of all Guyanese.

Noooo.  Really???  I thought you meant Andorra...  Where else would we talking about???  I never thought the day'd come that discoursing with someone of your intellect and experience would feel like nailing jello to the wall.

 

The lowering of VAT was being dealt with at the tripartite level.  However, the Gov't asked us to hold off as they said they had a tax committee in place which was examining the issue, and that we could engage that committee.  One of the persons, however, Dr Cyril Solomon, fell ill and that work has been delayed - I don't even think anything was done to begin with...

 

And while the tripartite talks has been a failure so far, if we do not get the assent of the PPP, even if passed in Parliament, the President more than likely will refuse to sign it.  And if he does not sign, it goes back to Parliament where it will die, as it would need a 2/3 majority to pass.  So for what it is worth it would appear that still remains the best avenue...

FM
Originally Posted by Henry:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:

How this has to do with what people pay elsewhere boggles my mind!  That is the silliest argument I have ever seen someone of your mental capacity hold on to!  That is why I can only conclude you are driven by racism.  I am sorry, but I cannot see it any other way as I refuse to believe you cannot see my points.

It is cheap and immoral to suggest that people who disagree with your arguments are "driven by racism" when there is absolutely no evidence that this is the case. You ought to consider the possibility that your arguments are just not that good.

Then address my arguments point for point.  In the absence of that I will form my own conclusions as to your motivations.

FM
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:

 

How this has to do with what people pay elsewhere boggles my mind!

Because your mind is in the wrong place, so you're boggled.  "Elsewhere" as in rest of Guyana!

 

BTW, what happened to the VAT reduction struggle?  That is one which crosses race and close to the heart of all Guyanese.

Noooo.  Really???  I thought you meant Andorra...  Where else would we talking about???  I never thought the day'd come that discoursing with someone of your intellect and experience would feel like nailing jello to the wall.

Well, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and from my vantage point, your position on the matter is "jello".

 

As I said, at most, I do support a "phase-out" period and not an abrupt cut-off as it is disruptive to family budgets.

FM
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by Henry:

It is cheap and immoral to suggest that people who disagree with your arguments are "driven by racism" when there is absolutely no evidence that this is the case. You ought to consider the possibility that your arguments are just not that good.

Then address my arguments point for point.  In the absence of that I will form my own conclusions as to your motivations.

Yes, you are the self-appointed judge, jury and executioner.

FM

baseman, how does phasing out come in when my argument is that if the correct pricing model is applied there would no need for a subsidy, or if any, a much reduced one?  Or are you so driven against Linden that such an arrangement bothers you, and no matter what, the town should pay just like the rest of Guyana, notwithstanding there is ample opportunity for both parties (BOSAI and Linden) to benefit?  To be clear, this means that BOSAI will still be paid for the excess it produces.

 

Now since you seem to abhorr subsidies so much, please tell us your position on the GuySuCo subsidy which is almost double that of Linden.

FM
Originally Posted by baseman:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:
Originally Posted by Henry:

It is cheap and immoral to suggest that people who disagree with your arguments are "driven by racism" when there is absolutely no evidence that this is the case. You ought to consider the possibility that your arguments are just not that good.

Then address my arguments point for point.  In the absence of that I will form my own conclusions as to your motivations.

Yes, you are the self-appointed judge, jury and executioner.

Well, please, join Uncle Henry in refuting what I have said point for point.  Remember your intellect is probably superior to mine, so please, put my point and then yours, in case I missed it in what I believed to have been obfuscation on your part.  Thanks in advance bro.

FM
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:

How does phasing out come in when my argument is that if the correct pricing model is applied there would no need for a subsidy, or if any, a much reduced one?  Or are you so driven against Linden that such an arrangement bothers you, and no matter what, the town should pay just like the rest of Guyana, notwithstanding there is ample opportunity for both parties (BOSAI and Linden) to benefit?  To be clear, this means that BOSAI will still be paid for the excess it produces.

 

Now since you seem to abhorr subsidies so much, please tell us your position on the GuySuCo subsidy which is almost double that of Linden.

Hear this, "as long as the Govt and taxpayers are asked to plug the gap" so Lindeners get cheaper electricity than the rest of Guyana....it is a subsidy.  If BOSAI does not want to provide the subsidy any longer, does not mean the Govt should pick it up.  So, as I said, in the interest of the people, the Govt should, at best, work out a phase-out with BOSAI or with the people.

 

Guysuco is a company and the Govt is subsidizing viability.  This is not a subsidy for cheap electricity for sugar workers.  Understand the difference.  However, I do not support this open-ended either.  Guysuco should have a path to independent viability free of subsidies.

 

Why do you say I "abhorr" all subsidies?  You are very very simple minded my man, very.  You need to get beyond headlines and cheap politics.  Farming subsidy to ensure (registered) farmers are protected from uncontrollable losses and price fluctuations giving farmers predictability thus ensuring adequate national food supplies IS a subsidy well worth it.  However, there should be conditions and standards, i.e. they must be registered and/or file taxes as a qualifying farmer, e.g. at least 70% of income derived from farming.

 

Oh yes, I can hear you and your cheer leaders, just because most farmers are Indian, I support it.  But relax, pig husbandry also falls into this category.

FM

Add Reply

×
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×