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FM
Former Member

Putin is certainly an unpleasant and ruthless man, but this debacle was triggered by misguided policies in the West. Last year, the EU offered a free-trade deal to Ukraine. It was part of a long-term strategy to entice the former Soviet satellite into the Western orbit, into Europe's economy and eventually into Nato.

In doing so, the EU was poking a stick at a sleeping bear. The hapless Ukrainians – who in 1994 gave up the third largest strategic nuclear arsenal in the world, bigger than those of Britain, France, and China combined – have found themselves pawns in a geopolitical game of chess. They swapped weapons for guarantees of protection by the world powers – which have proved worthless, as Iran and North Korea will note.

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Originally Posted by Lucas:

Putin is certainly an unpleasant and ruthless man, but this debacle was triggered by misguided policies in the West. Last year, the EU offered a free-trade deal to Ukraine. It was part of a long-term strategy to entice the former Soviet satellite into the Western orbit, into Europe's economy and eventually into Nato.

In doing so, the EU was poking a stick at a sleeping bear. The hapless Ukrainians – who in 1994 gave up the third largest strategic nuclear arsenal in the world, bigger than those of Britain, France, and China combined – have found themselves pawns in a geopolitical game of chess. They swapped weapons for guarantees of protection by the world powers – which have proved worthless, as Iran and North Korea will note.

You  are a trifling simpleton. Relationships everywhere functions only if others keep their word. We have normalcy in relations when this is maintained to, a greater-than-not proportion, most of the time. This is especially so in the arena of international affairs when consensus on the important things equates to progress  in human relations. Since the final arbiter between nations rest on assurances one keep their word. When it is broken the one doing so is not smart but evil since only evil motivates that action.

 

Broken words means crisis. Crisis in international affairs means physical war or economic war. Here the nations involved will act to to sanction by exclusion of the offending party. Russia is bringing down woes on itself by this rather simplistic move by Putin. How come he would not let a referendum solve the problem of Chechnya?

 

Russia is poor. It may be wealthy in resources but it cannot bootstrap itself by its raw materials alone.  It needs markets. Plus raw materials  these exist elsewhere and replaceable into the supply stream over time. Militarily, Russia depends on its nuclear threat. The US outspends the 16 largest spending allocation  by  nations on the planet; 600 billion to Russia 's 60 billion! Russia cannot sustain a conventional war as we have seen. It relies on the West not wanting to kill fellow white people and the knowledge that a weak Russia may stupidly use nuclear force. The US knows it will always win with economics.

 

The Ukrainians did what they had to. In the end,   prosperity is not via nuclear bombs but that people can use to eat and fulfill basic needs. Even if the Russian east defects, the remainder would be the largest state in Europe. It will  emerge as one of the most prosperous since the west will lavish them with gifts and these are very talented beautiful people. They acted as autonomous people choosing a path of their own liking. Russia has nothing to offer them besides cheap fuel and now they get everything including fuel for free. Europe was their best option.

 

History will reveal the fate of deprivations that is now the future path for the Crimea. The Muslim Tartars will not conform. Together with ethnic Ukrainians they make up close to half of the population. We now have divided society with no productive capacity as a client state to Russia which has only so little to spend here.

FM
Last edited by Former Member

A nation who after the collapse of the Soviet Union became the Third Military power of the world, disarms itself believing  false promises made by Europeans and Americans find itself turned into a failed state, it really deserves its fate.

 

FM
Originally Posted by Lucas:

A nation who after the collapse of the Soviet Union became the Third Military power of the world, disarms itself believing  false promises made by Europeans and Americans find itself turned into a failed state, it really deserves its fate.

 

The false promise was made by the Russians. Even they benefited in t e dis assembly of their defunct military arsenal. There is no use for  Nuclear weapons. These are not the 16 kiloton types of WWII but multi warheads to the tune of 10 to 20 kilotons. No one can use those devices. Only fools want the burden of fission tech.

 

Not unless we can throw it into the sun it will remain a burden and a danger to life here. And I am note even talking about bombs.  Even in the West it is more trouble than it is worth, They are extinction event  devices.

 

The Ukraine is  poor but it is far from being a failed state. It knows a future does not lie with a third world economy as Russia but in the company of the combined economies of Europe where it can bootstrap its people quicker.

FM
Originally Posted by Lucas:

Don't you know how to read?  you are really highly stormed..

U should be asking yourself that question. You are quite prodigious with loony, off the wall, bizarre opinions that beyond thinking you a paranoid  schitzod one would be kind to conclude it is a consequence of an inability to read.

FM

Ukraine has to come up with billions of dollars to sustain it's self this year alone.  If they think the EU will bail them out every year then they got some serious problems ahead.

FM
Originally Posted by Lucas:

I haven't really found anybody in this forum who refute me with strong arguments..all I see is insults or recitals of propaganda slogans...

Few care for wasting their time. One does not seek to  argue with those insisting that there are unicorns.  But it is not even that alone. Who gives a rats ass about some one wishing for a nuclear war between super powers so a despotic regime as China can become the world dominant power? Do you see my point? There would be no world for people to inherit in such a war. Only insects would remain you dumb fool

FM
Originally Posted by Wally:

Ukraine has to come up with billions of dollars to sustain it's self this year alone.  If they think the EU will bail them out every year then they got some serious problems ahead.

They will get it. Their economy is barely 200 billion.  They will get the necessary subsidy. There are also at least 10 percent of the population living abroad; in the US there are some 3 million.

FM
Originally Posted by Wally:

Those United Force guys like Stormborn and Caribj have put their trust in UNCLE SAM  just like Eric Gairy did.

I left Gy at 16 in '76. While I spent lots of vacation time there I never was into party politics. However, my faith is not in the US but in the western philosophical canon. It is on the ideas of power and its use. It is about self correcting philosophical systems and non dependence on  ideas or human virtue. They are often expressed quite messy and fluctuate wildly but they are grounded on unfettered human creative input. Communal benefits are better derived this way.

 

Russia abandoned what failed its peoples and saw the murder of millions on a utopian dream. It has not abandoned that notion yet despite the communist  detritus that is Putin. He is his own undoing. Russians are aggressive entrepreneurs and have a that mean streak individualism that we see in their pre communist literature ( albeit located mainly in the elite intelligentsia)They have bitten of the apple of western dynamism and are not going back to the era of social engineering. They are essentially  a European people late to realize the benefits of western style democracy and  they will dismantle Putin themselves. Additionally, they have to reconcile the idea or Russian nationalism vs others.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Wally:

The Russians are no longer communists but primitive capitalists.  They abandoned Cuba to face its fate.  Countries should think twice before supporting them.

This is what they said about the Chinese as well.

FM

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