Mars posted:

The Koran teaches that Muslims should not befriend non-Muslims. It is there over and over and in many more of your hadiths. You can deny the obvious if you like but you're not being truthful in doing do.

Koran 5.51 - O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Koran 5.81 You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.

Koran 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

Koran 3.118 O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

Koran 9.23 O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

I guess you understand the Qur'an better than those who studied it.

ksazma posted:

Mars posted:

 Although even today we can still see Jews and Christians banding together against Muslims.

We see acts which usually have a geopolitical/economic motive at the root of it.  The issue isn't about Iran vs. Saudi Arabia. It is why a confused French boy thinks that he can drive a truck into a crowd, and then go to Muslim heaven.

What you don't see are Christians walking into Muslim neighborhoods in London and blowing themselves up.  Or jumping on planes from majority Muslim countries and threatening to crash them.

Now of course one can take passages out of the Bible too that using 21st century norms might look savage. The difference is that one doesn't see Christians using these archaic ideas to bring harm to other Christian denominations, or to non Christians.

What you get are those disgusting Jehovah's Witness waking you up on a Saturday, and giving them a rake to clean out the yard is a way to ensure that they don't return.  Or inviting them in to clean up your house.

ksazma posted:

 

I guess you understand the Qur'an better than those who studied it.

Kaz there are those who study the Koran and then tell confused kids, or mentally disturbed adults, that if they kill in the name of the Koran they will go to Muslim heaven.

You need to stop with this endless what the Koran says.  It isn't what's in the Koran.  It is HOW people interpret what is in the Koran, and how many they kill when they do this.

Muslims need to get to the root of the problem. 

ksazma posted:

. If you change from Islam to another religion, you should be stoned to death.

ksazma posted:

Wrong.

 

Kaz there are Muslims who are damned as apostates and then killed in parts of the Muslim world.  Please don't be a hypocrite.

THAT is what Muslims need to address because it is THAT line of thinking that allows charlatans to hijack your religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...x-Muslims_of_Britain

This is a group in the UK. I chose that country and not Saudi Arabia, where apostates might even have to fear the arm of the state.

We have former Catholics walking all over the USA, and I didn't hear that they have anything to fear, except a priest preaching that they are sinners and have been excommunicated.

caribny posted:

What you don't see are Christians walking into Muslim neighborhoods in London and blowing themselves up.  Or jumping on planes from majority Muslim countries and threatening to crash them.

Now of course one can take passages out of the Bible too that using 21st century norms might look savage. The difference is that one doesn't see Christians using these archaic ideas to bring harm to other Christian denominations, or to non Christians.

What you get are those disgusting Jehovah's Witness waking you up on a Saturday, and giving them a rake to clean out the yard is a way to ensure that they don't return.  Or inviting them in to clean up your house.

I guess that you missed all those pro Christian and anti Muslim markings on those missiles/bombs which we dropped over Iraq back in 2003.

Actually, I used to have those Jehovah Witnesses sit down and engage them in Biblical teachings.

ksazma posted:

Mars posted:

The Koran teaches that Muslims should not befriend non-Muslims. It is there over and over and in many more of your hadiths. You can deny the obvious if you like but you're not being truthful in doing do.

Koran 5.51 - O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Koran 5.81 You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.

Koran 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

Koran 3.118 O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

Koran 9.23 O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

I guess you understand the Qur'an better than those who studied it.

caribny posted:

ksazma posted:

 

I guess you understand the Qur'an better than those who studied it.

Kaz there are those who study the Koran and then tell confused kids, or mentally disturbed adults, that if they kill in the name of the Koran they will go to Muslim heaven.

You need to stop with this endless what the Koran says.  It isn't what's in the Koran.  It is HOW people interpret what is in the Koran, and how many they kill when they do this.

Muslims need to get to the root of the problem. 

Anyone can say anything. Now find someone whose writings is accepted in academia and used it schools and colleges like Karen Armstrong who make these statements.

caribny posted:

ksazma posted:

. If you change from Islam to another religion, you should be stoned to death.

ksazma posted:

Wrong.

 

Kaz there are Muslims who are damned as apostates and then killed in parts of the Muslim world.  Please don't be a hypocrite.

THAT is what Muslims need to address because it is THAT line of thinking that allows charlatans to hijack your religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...x-Muslims_of_Britain

This is a group in the UK. I chose that country and not Saudi Arabia, where apostates might even have to fear the arm of the state.

We have former Catholics walking all over the USA, and I didn't hear that they have anything to fear, except a priest preaching that they are sinners and have been excommunicated.

Here again is context. These dealt not with people who simply became non Muslims after they became Muslims but rather who began fighting against Muslims after they became non Muslims. There is no injunction in the Qur'an that Muslims should go around killing people who became non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims now in 'Muslim' lands who weren't there before. If that was a mainstream Muslim law, those people wouldn't be around as we speak. 

Mars posted:

ksazma posted:

Mars posted:

The Koran teaches that Muslims should not befriend non-Muslims. It is there over and over and in many more of your hadiths. You can deny the obvious if you like but you're not being truthful in doing do.

Koran 5.51 - O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Koran 5.81 You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.

Koran 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

Koran 3.118 O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

Koran 9.23 O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

I guess you understand the Qur'an better than those who studied it.

Irrelevant. The argument isn't about facts or lack thereof. It is about the content of a book and its meaning when considering its circumstances (context).

ksazma posted:

 

I guess that you missed all those pro Christian and anti Muslim markings on those missiles/bombs which we dropped over Iraq back in 2003.

 

Get back to me when a Jehovah's Witness enters a mosque and pulls a bomb, kills himself and screams "Jesus will forgive these sinners".

Even the most fanatic Christians don't engage in this.

There were geopolitical and commercial reasons for the invasion of Iraq and you know this very well. 

If religion were the only justification then why was a secular country (Iraq), and a regime hostile to Islamist terrorists (Saddam) attacked, and not Saudi Arabia, the notion most framed by its interpretation of the Koran?

Note that the equally secular Gaddafi was also removed.

ksazma posted:

Mars posted:

ksazma posted:

Mars posted:

The Koran teaches that Muslims should not befriend non-Muslims. It is there over and over and in many more of your hadiths. You can deny the obvious if you like but you're not being truthful in doing do.

Koran 5.51 - O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Koran 5.81 You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.

Koran 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

Koran 3.118 O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

Koran 9.23 O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

I guess you understand the Qur'an better than those who studied it.

Irrelevant. The argument isn't about facts or lack thereof. It is about the content of a book and its meaning when considering its circumstances (context).

I showed you teachings from the Koran which substantiates skeldon_man's statement. He never made any reference to circumstances in which his statement was made, therefore he is correct. End of story.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

ksazma posted:

 

I guess you understand the Qur'an better than those who studied it.

Kaz there are those who study the Koran and then tell confused kids, or mentally disturbed adults, that if they kill in the name of the Koran they will go to Muslim heaven.

You need to stop with this endless what the Koran says.  It isn't what's in the Koran.  It is HOW people interpret what is in the Koran, and how many they kill when they do this.

Muslims need to get to the root of the problem. 

Anyone can say anything. Now find someone whose writings is accepted in academia and used it schools and colleges like Karen Armstrong who make these statements.

Even you will admit that its way safer to be a Muslim in a Christian country than it is to be a Christian in a Muslim nation.  I bet you don't feel any angst when you walk into your mosque.  Now imagine how a Christian in Saudi Arabia will feel.

ksazma posted:

 

Here again is context. These dealt not with people who simply became non Muslims after they became Muslims but rather who began fighting against Muslims after they became non Muslims.. 

And they live in fear for their lives.

Bill Maher screams against Christians every Friday night.  You think that if he pulled an anti Muslim stunt in Iran, Pakistan or Saudi he wouldn't be immediately jailed.........or worse?  His movie "Religulous", an anti religion rant can be easily found, for those who wish to watch it.

That is the point.  If some former Muslims leave the religion, and are vocal about it, they are exercising their right to free speech!  So why should they live in fear?

Mars posted:

I showed you teachings from the Koran which substantiates skeldon_man's statement. He never made any reference to circumstances in which his statement was made, therefore he is correct. End of story.

You didn't show me teachings from the Qur'an. You showed me passages from the Qur'an. I am certain you understand what teachings mean. Skeldon_man also stated "teaches". Anyway, this back and forth is useless. End of story.

ksazma posted:

Mars posted:

I showed you teachings from the Koran which substantiates skeldon_man's statement. He never made any reference to circumstances in which his statement was made, therefore he is correct. End of story.

You didn't show me teachings from the Qur'an. You showed me passages from the Qur'an. I am certain you understand what teachings mean. Skeldon_man also stated "teaches". Anyway, this back and forth is useless. End of story.

Aren't passages from the Koran used to teach people? Yes.

ksazma posted:

Mars posted:

I showed you teachings from the Koran which substantiates skeldon_man's statement. He never made any reference to circumstances in which his statement was made, therefore he is correct. End of story.

You didn't show me teachings from the Qur'an. You showed me passages from the Qur'an. I am certain you understand what teachings mean. Skeldon_man also stated "teaches". Anyway, this back and forth is useless. End of story.

And this is what I mean about Muslims having to fix their problem.  I don't expect Muslims to solve the geopolitical mess of the Middle East/southwest Asia.

I do expect Muslims to eradicate those who propagate archaic and savage interpretations of the Koran.  It is only people who operate WITHIN a religion who can fix problems in how that religion is interpreted.

Please don't deny that there are Muslims who do read what Mars wrote, and have a completely different interpretation of it than you do.  This underlies their violence towards those who interpret the Koran differently, as well as towards those who decide to leave Islam!

Mars posted:

ksazma posted:

Mars posted:

I showed you teachings from the Koran which substantiates skeldon_man's statement. He never made any reference to circumstances in which his statement was made, therefore he is correct. End of story.

You didn't show me teachings from the Qur'an. You showed me passages from the Qur'an. I am certain you understand what teachings mean. Skeldon_man also stated "teaches". Anyway, this back and forth is useless. End of story.

Aren't passages from the Koran used to teach people? Yes.

Mars. I once read the Bible cover to cover. I saw murder, bloodshed, violence, incest, justification of slavery, racism, and misogyny, as well as very titillating descriptions of masturbation and other sexual acts.

One cannot lift passages from a book and then damn the entire religion.  If so than Judaism, Christianity, AND Islam stand condemned.

caribny posted:

 

 

Even you will admit that its way safer to be a Muslim in a Christian country than it is to be a Christian in a Muslim nation.  I bet you don't feel any angst when you walk into your mosque.  Now imagine how a Christian in Saudi Arabia will feel.

No doubt I feel safer in this part of the world than I do in anywhere west of the California coast. This is not a Christian country although the majority of its citizens are Christians. The United States has separation of Church and State. And while there are some redneck kinds who would attack others who look foreign of have a non-Christian faith, it is not widespread.

During the time of the prophet and for some time after his death, people of religion other than Islam lived in safety with their Muslim counterparts. Those silly 'Muslim' rules in those predominantly Muslim countries don't correspond with the teachings of the Qur'an and the life of the prophet who said that "a Muslim is he in whom his neighbors are safe".

caribny posted:

Mars posted:

ksazma posted:

Mars posted:

I showed you teachings from the Koran which substantiates skeldon_man's statement. He never made any reference to circumstances in which his statement was made, therefore he is correct. End of story.

You didn't show me teachings from the Qur'an. You showed me passages from the Qur'an. I am certain you understand what teachings mean. Skeldon_man also stated "teaches". Anyway, this back and forth is useless. End of story.

Aren't passages from the Koran used to teach people? Yes.

Mars. I once read the Bible cover to cover. I saw murder, bloodshed, violence, incest, justification of slavery, racism, and misogyny, as well as very titillating descriptions of masturbation and other sexual acts.

One cannot lift passages from a book and then damn the entire religion.  If so than Judaism, Christianity, AND Islam stand condemned.

I'm not damning any religion. I'm providing evidence to show that what skeldon_man said was true since it was being vociferously denied. 

caribny posted:

 

Please don't deny that there are Muslims who do read what Mars wrote, and have a completely different interpretation of it than you do.  This underlies their violence towards those who interpret the Koran differently, as well as towards those who decide to leave Islam!

And that is why I agree with Stormy's position that the Muslim world needs a universal governing body who are truly educated on the content of the Qur'an and its teachings instead of having every Tom, Dick, Harry and Mars    think they know.

ksazma posted:

 

No doubt I feel safer in this part of the world than I do in anywhere west of the California coast. This is not a Christian country although the majority of its citizens are Christians. The United States has separation of Church and State. And while there are some redneck kinds who would attack others who look foreign of have a non-Christian faith, it is not widespread.

 

The land where the prophet was born doesn't allow people to have other religions.  So why do you cite that bit where you claim that Muslims were tolerant?   The land recognized by Muslims as the source of their religion is NOT tolerant today.

Can you tell us of demands made by Muslims to allow those Saudis who wish to be Christians to be allowed to be.

Now enjoy the fact that in this CHRISTIAN country, there is division between church and state to protect religious minorities from being victimized.

Also enjoy the UK where there is NOT division between church and state (you have heard of the Church of England, AKA the Anglican church).

Pity that there are few majority Muslim countries where I as a Christian wouldn't have to fear violence being directed towards me ONLY because of my religion.

caribny posted:

The land where the prophet was born doesn't allow people to have other religions.

Now enjoy the fact that in this CHRISTIAN country, there is division between church and state to protect religious minorities from being victimized.

Pity that there are few majority Muslim countries where I as a Christian wouldn't have to fear violence being directed towards me ONLY because of my religion.

Technically one can safety say that the land where the prophet was born doesn't allow the religion of the prophet to be practiced either. Saudi Arabia goes through the 'Muslim' motions just like many other predominantly Muslim populated nations. It is akin to Jesus bemoaning that the Rabbis follow the letter of the law instead of the spirit of it.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

 

Please don't deny that there are Muslims who do read what Mars wrote, and have a completely different interpretation of it than you do.  This underlies their violence towards those who interpret the Koran differently, as well as towards those who decide to leave Islam!

And that is why I agree with Stormy's position that the Muslim world needs a universal governing body who are truly educated on the content of the Qur'an and its teachings instead of having every Tom, Dick, Harry and Mars    think they know.

Aaah, you NOW get my point. I however did NOT think that it was my role as a non Muslim to come up with that idea.  I as a non Muslim don't have enough of an understanding as to why the religion is less hierarchical than Christianity is, so I as a non Muslim couldn't impose this view.

Now I hope that more Muslims share your views and get to work to establishing some framework so that silly little French, German, Belgian, and American boys aren't brainwashed by death doers into having a warped notion about what being a Muslim is.

And while that is happening, "tribal Islam" can also be revealed, as not Islam, but the residual practices of primitive nomadic peoples.  That way girls in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and northern Nigeria would be allowed to go to school without risking DEATH!

Classical Islam was a religion which placed heavy value on innovation, and creativity.  Some where nomads hijacked the religion, and this ended.

alena06 posted:

Chief posted:

Nehru posted:

I have high confidence in the intelligence of the majority of the American People.  Trump has the Trailer Trash Redneck Votes but HIllary has the winning number.  Just my two cents.

With your recent sentiments about all Masjids and Muslims should be on the rader, you fit in more with Donald Trump and his hate.

However your above statement is welcoming.  Hope you can spend some time to understand that the terrorists who are causing mayhem in the world , are not what the noble religion of Islam teaches.

Chief - what have you done to help victims of terrorist attacks in America?

Wow, you giving the man a heart attack!