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FM
Former Member

How to gain over US$1 billion per year from Guyanese Diaspora - TK

The PPP once declared the forests are Guyana’s most important resource. That party then pivoted on crude oil, even while pursuing its amorphous Low Carbon Development Strategy. The APNU+AFC government is also keen to benefit from oil extraction. There is also a lot of effort placed on recovering smuggled gold, itself another manifestation of the natural resource curse. However, any serious development plan (and strategy to tackle the runaway crime rate) has to shift youth labour away from small and medium scale gold mining.

In 2011 the AFC stated in its Action Plan that Guyanese people (at home and overseas) with their embodied skills and education are the most important asset. These days the AFC appears neutered or merely lacks conviction. While in Brooklyn last year, President Granger called on Guyanese to return home to “invest in change…to open businesses…” Just a few remigrants will have the willingness to open a business in Guyana, but this does not mean they cannot make an enormous contribution and transfer skills and knowledge to the entire society.

20131120watchBefore I discuss the shape of a possible diaspora framework, two issues have to be addressed. The first pertains to political economy: the remigrants must not interfere with the political patronage flows of local ethnic elites and ethnic masses. The proposal I present takes into consideration the idea that the primary reason why elites are in politics in Guyana is to control the system of government patronage. Given the intra-group ethnic networks and pro-ethnic voting, patronage tends to flow towards the ethnic masses of the government of the day (think state jobs and contracts) and some are used to pacify ethnic elites of the other group. This is why you have several members of the new APNU+AFC government (and advisors or family members) with substantial natural resource and other economic claims. Since Independence in 1966, Guyana’s political economy has been organized by two patronage systems: Party Paramountcy of PNC and Elected Oligarchy of PPP. Both have been detrimental to economic development. In time the patronage formation of the Granger administration will be defined.

Patronage also explains why mid-level professionals like Mr Winston Brassington are being harassed by the APNU+AFC government and not the Oligarch-in-Chief himself and those with previous ministerial responsibilities who have accumulated observed wealth inconsistent with annual salary. SARU is just a charade to pacify an ethnic mass easily swayed by simplistic propaganda and flawed calculations. In any case, the marginal cost of operating SARU will be greater than the marginal benefit.

20160113tableSecondly, Guyanese at home should think deeply about the economic value of the diaspora and its capacity to greatly improve their economic fortunes. In tourism-based economies the general population understands the importance of tourists. They do not pester or rob tourists. In Guyana even the famous newspaper columnist, Mr Freddie Kissoon, once labelled the diaspora as traitors. This amounts to throwing away a resource with greater economic value than the forests, gold or crude oil.

I argue that the APNU+AFC government and PPP should work towards encouraging about 50,000 Guyanese retirees from North America to resettle in Guyana. Top private medical facilities should be allowed to develop quickly. Private-public effort must create houses at prices more competitive than Florida and Panama. Belize has long focused on attracting non-Belizean retirees with a fair degree of success. But Guyana should start with its large diaspora in North America. If we strip away the crimes of passion, Guyana is statistically just as safe as Belize. Yes, security and hospitality have to be greatly improved, and so too infrastructure and the attitude of the locals. Guarantees can be put in place to hold their monthly retirement funds in US$ accounts in Guyanese banks. But as spending occurs, the funds would be exchanged for Guyana dollars.

My cursory observation has been that Guyanese in North America would rather retire in Guyana than Florida if the former can pull itself together. Tourism will also result if 10,000 to 50,000 retirees go back to Guyana as friends and family will visit. In general, the small sample of Guyanese I have surveyed would prefer catching patwa and hourie than playing golf. Housing developments should cater for ample boating and fishing.

Let us say the average North American retiree has US$2, 500 in pension payment from Social Security and other private sources (I think it could be higher). Table 1 shows several scenarios of foreign exchange inflows for 10, 000 to 50, 000 remigrants from North America. If just 10, 000 people can be encouraged to retire in Guyana the monthly and annual inflows would be US$25 mill and US$300 mill, respectively. If the target of 50, 000 retirees can be achieved the monthly inflow will be around US$125 mill, and the annual inflow of a whopping US$ 1.5 bill.

This kind of economic focus does not result in a resource curse and it helps to transform the economy towards a service-based one. The country will be enjoying the resettlement of professionals and people with wisdom. Many could be former nurses and school teachers who might be willing to volunteer or even work for a part-time income. Some could be former engineers, medical practitioners, technicians and other professionals. A smart government would maintain a database of the remigrants and try to match their skills to specific needs. Indeed, retirees will not live forever, but there is a large enough critical mass to sustain about 20, 000 to 30, 000 for another 30 years.

Retirees will tend to have a higher propensity to consume, meaning they are likely to spend a high percentage of their monthly retirement benefit. The implication here is the multiplier effect on Guyanese service-based and agriculture-based components of GDP will be enormous. My back of the envelope calculation of the multiplier given assumed consumption rate and import propensity rate is around 1.8. This means that if 10, 000 retirees move back to Guyana the annual boost to GDP will be US$540 mill. And if the target of 50, 000 can be achieved the annual boost to GDP will be US$2.7 bill. See Table 1 for GDP increase if 20, 000 to 40, 000 people move back. That’s a lot of work that can be created. These numbers do not include the multiplier effect of housing construction as a percentage of retirees will demand new homes.

There will be need for quality restaurants and chefs, medical providers, landscapers, taxi drivers, retailers, entertainers, mechanics, carpenters, electricians, accountants, financial advisers, morticians and other service professionals. These are much better options compared with working in the interior on a small or medium sized gold mine. If my numbers are right, the foreign exchange inflows and multiplier effect would be greater than crude oil extraction. This type of production structure could result in lower crime and suicide rates. There should also be an increase in demand for domestic air travel and tourism. If we can succeed with the diaspora we can possibly think about non-Guyanese groups.

Replies sorted oldest to newest

TK - I cannot understand what you are saying here:

the remigrants must not interfere with the political patronage flows of local ethnic elites and ethnic masses. The proposal I present takes into consideration the idea that the primary reason why elites are in politics in Guyana is to control the system of government patronage. Given the intra-group ethnic networks and pro-ethnic voting, patronage tends to flow towards the ethnic masses of the government of the day (think state jobs and contracts) and some are used to pacify ethnic elites of the other group.

So are you saying "political patronage" is okay and remigrants should not be concerned about it?

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member

Quote TK .... Patronage also explains why mid-level professionals like Mr Winston Brassington are being harassed by the APNU+AFC government and not the Oligarch-in-Chief himself and those with previous ministerial responsibilities who have accumulated observed wealth inconsistent with annual salary.

So the Fat Scamp

is now a

Mid-level professional?

 Mid-level professional means he is between "De Rat" and "De Shart Scamp"

May 10, 2015

May 10, 2015

FM
Last edited by Former Member

Some of what TK says has merit however, not sure it will be as easy.  Healthcare is a key issue and establishment of good private hospitals will be challenging.  Most retirees are under Medicare and unless these hospitals participate, not sure it's brings much value to retirees.

For the healthy retiree, the critical issue is safety, law and order.  Just saw one with his pretty young wife got murdered.

Not sure how it works with Belize but I think those US retirees are fairly well off to wealthy and have private insurance or are self insured.  Most retiring Guyanese are not.

FM

When you remigrate to Guyana and the locals know you get American dollars, you need a canon on each side of your house. If you cannot afford to install canons, purchase a casket and keep it in your house. I have no intentions of ever living in Guyana..regardless who is in power.

FM

Look tK, I retired and returned to Guyana with my wife. We are both educated professionals. Well, my wife in October accepted a contract to work in North America and I have been asked to do the same. After six years of living in Guyana, I think that nothing will change. People in government go into government to do service for themselves. This and the continuing corruption has made a major part of the society rotten. We find that we are the prisoners living behind steel bars, locking up the house by 5 pm, always looking over our shoulders at who is behind us, dealing with corrupt cops and government functionaries and public servants, not being able to give back, something we wanted to do.

I wonder where you will get the people to bring about this change. Can you not understand that it is the system of patronage that is a factor that leads to the corruption in the society? You thought the AFC was going to bring about change. Now they are part of the problem. Your sample of Guyanese retirees wishing to return to Guyana might be skewed. It is like a chicken and egg situation. They will not come because of the current situation in Guyana, and you do not have the money to change the system, if this is all it takes (and it takes more than that) and attract the retirees by dealing with the man issues that deter them from returning. 

But, it is great you can make these proposals while in the relatively safety and comfort in the USA.

Z

For people to retire to Guyana I would think that the situation in Guyana would have to be better than or equal to what they are leaving.  Maybe some retire for "future opportunities" in government or business, but I think these are the "connected" few.

I would never retire to Guyana under a government I cannot trust.  I would never return if you have to bribe government officials to live a decent life.  I would never return if there is rampant crime.  I sometime wonder why people like Zed retired there.

My return to Guyana will have to be politically motivated because I think I can give back to Guyana and I don't need anything in return.

FM

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

FM

Guyana is filled with political prostitutes.  I find even some in the diaspora get involved with politics have their own selfish agenda.  This is why they jump from PPP, AFC, PNC and whatever else, circling the political parking lot to find an empty slot.  I talk to my relatives back there, some wealthy and educated and they live their lives and stay far far away from the political class and politics.  Back in 2011 when i tried to push AFC onto them, they laughed saying these are all recycled politicians, looking for opportunity, same old, same old.

Look now, many had great hope in Granger, he got into power and wasted no time in reestablishing the old PNC crony racist order!  The people who put him there (AFC) are now floor cloth.

I have to say, the only true unselfish politician coming out of Guyana was CBJ, even if you don't agree with his politics.

FM
Drugb posted:

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

I doubt TK would even retire there, even if his dear old PNC are still in power!

FM
Drugb posted:

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

Look everyone has a motive. Some people are business men or potential entrepreneurs. If they see an opportunity they will reach for it and sometimes before the reaching starts they will lay the foundation. Agenda can be good or bad, let us see how this one plays out.

FM
baseman posted:
Drugb posted:

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

I doubt TK would even retire there, even if his dear old PNC are still in power!

You are correct again, political prostitutes tend not to take their own advice, they try to goad others into taking actions that they themselves wouldn't.  Just like the mullahs who get the misguided to become suicide bombers, while they kick back and enjoy 22 virgins. 

FM
Drugb posted:

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

This is a major source of foreign exchange for places like Greece, Belize and Croatia. The column recognizes the security situation. But I am more confident that this President can discipline the society versus someone like Jagdeo. At least give him credit for leding by example. There is already some sign of this. They got the mini busses to form a line, something I have been saying for years.

There once were very lawless societies that pull themselves together: Korea and Taiwan are examples. Belize has a lot of crimes, also. Although this govt is suffering from ideological dissonance on the economic front (the President one day is free market and next he is for village economies), they will bring down crimes in two years. You have also missed the point about weather. Someone people like me would never live north of Florida. I don't like the cold, let alone cold when I am 65. 55 degrees have me all strapping up here these last few days.  

FM
TK posted: Korea and Taiwan are examples. 

You do realize that there is a huge cultural difference between these two countries and Gy right?

You have probably travelled to Asia, I have done so extensively and their culture is major factor of what contributes to their economic success 

 

FM
Zed posted:

Look tK, I retired and returned to Guyana with my wife. We are both educated professionals. Well, my wife in October accepted a contract to work in North America and I have been asked to do the same. After six years of living in Guyana, I think that nothing will change. People in government go into government to do service for themselves. This and the continuing corruption has made a major part of the society rotten. We find that we are the prisoners living behind steel bars, locking up the house by 5 pm, always looking over our shoulders at who is behind us, dealing with corrupt cops and government functionaries and public servants, not being able to give back, something we wanted to do.

I wonder where you will get the people to bring about this change. Can you not understand that it is the system of patronage that is a factor that leads to the corruption in the society? You thought the AFC was going to bring about change. Now they are part of the problem. Your sample of Guyanese retirees wishing to return to Guyana might be skewed. It is like a chicken and egg situation. They will not come because of the current situation in Guyana, and you do not have the money to change the system, if this is all it takes (and it takes more than that) and attract the retirees by dealing with the man issues that deter them from returning. 

But, it is great you can make these proposals while in the relatively safety and comfort in the USA.

When last have you gone to high crime Jamaica? The column talks about the need to get the society to appreciate the economic value of the diaspora. That includes from newspaper columnists to the man on the street. They know this fact in Jamaica re tourists. Govt also have to think about gradually shifting youth labor from the small gold mines. There is little good that can come from such employment. There is also a high social cost. There are not many transferable skills after you spend 6 mths on a dredge. The health cost is higher as many will get malaria.

FM
politikalamity posted:
TK posted: Korea and Taiwan are examples. 

You do realize that there is a huge cultural difference between these two countries and Gy right?

You have probably travelled to Asia, I have done so extensively and their culture is major factor of what contributes to their economic success 

 

These places were much more lawless than Guyana in the 40s and 50s. However they all had a strong man to pull them in line. There is cultural difference but they are in no way superior to black or brown people. That myth has been exposed a long time in development econ literature that the Asians have some superior work ethic than other people.

FM
TK posted:
Drugb posted:

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

. But I am more confident that this President can discipline the society versus someone like Jagdeo. .  

He can hardly discipline his own PNC ranks, much less a skeptical populace and the growing negative Indian masses.  Would he "discipline" them the PNC ways?  One the other hand, Jagdeo discipline Buxton/Agricola real good and got Guyana's economy going and brought some semblance of order!

TK, this is a nice theory and Excel exercise, but you are assuming a high participation/adoption rate.  Even if we give you credit that Granger can turn it around, it will take over a decade and by then this first generation crop of retirees will not go.  The second set will be further removed from Guyana.

Anyway, I don't see him turning anything around, Blacks have been racists against Indians in Guyana for generations, we ran from that, many, like Caribj still posses that hatred right here in the US.  Why would anyone, in their sunset years, want to revisit that type of eye-pass and tyranny. 

FM
VVP posted:

TK - I cannot understand what you are saying here:

the remigrants must not interfere with the political patronage flows of local ethnic elites and ethnic masses. The proposal I present takes into consideration the idea that the primary reason why elites are in politics in Guyana is to control the system of government patronage. Given the intra-group ethnic networks and pro-ethnic voting, patronage tends to flow towards the ethnic masses of the government of the day (think state jobs and contracts) and some are used to pacify ethnic elites of the other group.

So are you saying "political patronage" is okay and remigrants should not be concerned about it?

 

It simply means because blacks and indos vote largely along racial lines patronage is skewed along ethnic lines. No one seems to get this fact and the task of a great leader is to break it up. Now, getting retirees to go there will be less likely to threaten the established networks of the day. The locals will benefit from FX and jobs. The retirees get a cultural reconnection and better weather for those who like the warmer climate. Patronage system is not okay or efficient, but it will be there as long as people vote for race. The idea of getting retirees to settle there is a way of working around the patronage problem. Mauritius had a patronage problem to solve in the early 1970s. Local capitalists who were also connected to the govt did not want to open up to foreign investments because they were afraid of competition. The then govt set elaborate EPZs that isolated the foreign investors from locals. Today people praise this as a model. 

Everyone blames the leaders but don't ask the question: what if we had voted for AFC in 2011? A genuine multiethnic party at the time? If 30% even voted AFC then there would be no need for coalition which was the only way to get the PPP on the benches so it reforms itself. But read Mr Ramkarran's piece in today's SN. The bad boy blaming everybody for PPP's loss in 2011 and 2015.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
TK posted:
Drugb posted:

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

This is a major source of foreign exchange for places like Greece, Belize and Croatia. The column recognizes the security situation. But I am more confident that this President can discipline the society versus someone like Jagdeo. At least give him credit for leding by example. There is already some sign of this. They got the mini busses to form a line, something I have been saying for years.

There once were very lawless societies that pull themselves together: Korea and Taiwan are examples. Belize has a lot of crimes, also. Although this govt is suffering from ideological dissonance on the economic front (the President one day is free market and next he is for village economies), they will bring down crimes in two years. You have also missed the point about weather. Someone people like me would never live north of Florida. I don't like the cold, let alone cold when I am 65. 55 degrees have me all strapping up here these last few days.  

TK, the idea is good, but the situation is bad.  

Guyana needs a massive influx of people to support a growing economy. For example, the price of electricity is high because you do not have enough people (accounts) over which to spread the costs (of course incompetence and corruption are other factors for high elec prices).  However, this is not going to happen easily unless we accept refugees...which might not be a bad idea.

I thought you were a Alpha male   Lil cold bother you?  What if you lived where I live - 1,000 ft high in upstate NY with no other house within 1,000 feet.

Anyway, I am curious about your thinking on the "political patronage" question I asked above.

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member
 
 

TK: These places were much more lawless than Guyana in the 40s and 50s. However they all had a strong man to pull them in line.

Poli: Not sure what you mean by strong, however, if by strong you mean a leader who is not afraid to make decisions, Gy already had that in Forbes Burnham

TK: There is cultural difference but they are in no way superior to black or brown people.

Poli: Not saying that it is superior. I believe that culture is shaped by environment – geography, belief system and a willingness to change. I have worked with these people throughout my career and I have never seen a more driven people with the willingness to work hard to improve their economic situation. That being said they do have other issues within their society, but that is another topic.

TK: That myth has been exposed a long time in development econ literature that the Asians have some superior work ethic than other people.

Poli: People can write all they want but travelling and living there and seeing for one’s self is the best way to learn a society – do not be a tourist be an explorer and live like a local.

 Guyana has to start by addressing its racial divide and then many other things will fall in place.

 

FM
baseman posted:
TK posted:
Drugb posted:

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

. But I am more confident that this President can discipline the society versus someone like Jagdeo. .  

He can hardly discipline his own PNC ranks, much less a skeptical populace and the growing negative Indian masses.  Would he "discipline" them the PNC ways?  One the other hand, Jagdeo discipline Buxton/Agricola real good and got Guyana's economy going and brought some semblance of order!

TK, this is a nice theory and Excel exercise, but you are assuming a high participation/adoption rate.  Even if we give you credit that Granger can turn it around, it will take over a decade and by then this first generation crop of retirees will not go.  The second set will be further removed from Guyana.

Anyway, I don't see him turning anything around, Blacks have been racists against Indians in Guyana for generations, we ran from that, many, like Caribj still posses that hatred right here in the US.  Why would anyone, in their sunset years, want to revisit that type of eye-pass and tyranny. 

Well my reading of history is Indos were quite racist early on. Perhaps Indos started it first. There were some interesting accounts when early Indian villages were being established and they asked for blacks to be removed. They actually forced out some blacks in one Essequio village in 1860s. Jagdeo disciplined the Buxton gunmen - who had tacit support form Hoyte and a few in PNC, BTW - by fortifying criminal networks. I am sure Presi Granger is trying to discipline  them by getting the security agencies up and running. Today East Indian youths are major drug users and they kill their fellow villagers for money. The chickens are coming home to roost.

Guyana faced a major crisis of skills. You also have a lot of mid level security people going after Indians perceived to be PPP supporters. These people did not even get 4 CXCs. Now, you have this govt a few days ago lowering the standards to get into UG. The 5 subjects in two sittings is already a reasonable. This is a backward step. Why not lift people to get to US standards rather than lower UG's standards. No strategic thinking anywhere. This is something the President should overrule and reverse.

FM
VVP posted:
TK posted:
Drugb posted:

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

This is a major source of foreign exchange for places like Greece, Belize and Croatia. The column recognizes the security situation. But I am more confident that this President can discipline the society versus someone like Jagdeo. At least give him credit for leding by example. There is already some sign of this. They got the mini busses to form a line, something I have been saying for years.

There once were very lawless societies that pull themselves together: Korea and Taiwan are examples. Belize has a lot of crimes, also. Although this govt is suffering from ideological dissonance on the economic front (the President one day is free market and next he is for village economies), they will bring down crimes in two years. You have also missed the point about weather. Someone people like me would never live north of Florida. I don't like the cold, let alone cold when I am 65. 55 degrees have me all strapping up here these last few days.  

 

I thought you were a Alpha male   Lil cold bother you?  What if you lived where I live - 1,000 ft high in upstate NY with no other house within 1,000 feet.

 

 

You got me there!

FM
TK posted:
VVP posted:

TK - I cannot understand what you are saying here:

the remigrants must not interfere with the political patronage flows of local ethnic elites and ethnic masses. The proposal I present takes into consideration the idea that the primary reason why elites are in politics in Guyana is to control the system of government patronage. Given the intra-group ethnic networks and pro-ethnic voting, patronage tends to flow towards the ethnic masses of the government of the day (think state jobs and contracts) and some are used to pacify ethnic elites of the other group.

So are you saying "political patronage" is okay and remigrants should not be concerned about it?

 

It simply means because blacks and indos vote largely along racial lines patronage is skewed along ethnic lines. No one seems to get this fact and the task of a great leader is to break it up. Now, getting retirees to go there will be less likely to threaten the established networks of the day. The locals will benefit from FX and jobs. The retirees get a cultural reconnection and better weather for those who like the warmer climate. Patronage system is not okay or efficient, but it will be there as long as people vote for race. The idea of getting retirees to settle there is a way of working around the patronage problem. Mauritius had a patronage problem to solve in the early 1970s. Local capitalists who were also connected to the govt did not want to open up to foreign investments because they were afraid of competition. The then govt set elaborate EPZs that isolated the foreign investors from locals. Today people praise this as a model. 

Everyone blames the leaders but don't ask the question: what if we had voted for AFC in 2011? A genuine multiethnic party at the time? If 30% even voted AFC then there would be no need for coalition which was the only way to get the PPP on the benches so it reforms itself. But read Mr Ramkarran's piece in today's SN. The bad boy blaming everybody for PPP's loss in 2011 and 2015.

And why do you think people will return to a country where political patronage is prevalent?  People are not stupid.  For retirees to return the political system must change for the good.  This has to come about by actions not words.  

I have written off Granger for the simple fact that he released criminals without naming them (I am all for pardons but it cannot be done in secrecy), he surreptitiously raised salaries for himself and cohorts, and now he seems bent on militarizing the country.  Why should I pay attention to this government anymore?

I agree that people who return should not be given unfair competitive advantages over the locals...but that's another question. EPZs seems like a good idea.  Something similar could happen for retiree communities where the retirees are able to control their own destiny.  It would be an excellent idea to populate Essequibo with retirees but you have to have the right conditions and that is not happening in Guyana.

And about the AFC...they showed themselves to be a bunch of waste so their cark duck.

FM
TK posted:
baseman posted:
TK posted:

. But I am more confident that this President can discipline the society versus someone like Jagdeo. .  

He can hardly discipline his own PNC ranks, much less a skeptical populace and the growing negative Indian masses.  Would he "discipline" them the PNC ways?  One the other hand, Jagdeo discipline Buxton/Agricola real good and got Guyana's economy going and brought some semblance of order!

TK, this is a nice theory and Excel exercise, but you are assuming a high participation/adoption rate.  Even if we give you credit that Granger can turn it around, it will take over a decade and by then this first generation crop of retirees will not go.  The second set will be further removed from Guyana.

Anyway, I don't see him turning anything around, Blacks have been racists against Indians in Guyana for generations, we ran from that, many, like Caribj still posses that hatred right here in the US.  Why would anyone, in their sunset years, want to revisit that type of eye-pass and tyranny. 

Well my reading of history is Indos were quite racist early on. Perhaps Indos started it first. There were some interesting accounts when early Indian villages were being established and they asked for blacks to be removed. They actually forced out some blacks in one Essequio village in 1860s. Jagdeo disciplined the Buxton gunmen - who had tacit support form Hoyte and a few in PNC, BTW - by fortifying criminal networks. I am sure Presi Granger is trying to discipline  them by getting the security agencies up and running. Today East Indian youths are major drug users and they kill their fellow villagers for money. The chickens are coming home to roost.

Guyana faced a major crisis of skills. You also have a lot of mid level security people going after Indians perceived to be PPP supporters. These people did not even get 4 CXCs. Now, you have this govt a few days (eight months) ago lowering the standards to get into UG. The 5 subjects in two sittings is already a reasonable. This is a backward step. Why not lift people to get to US standards rather than lower UG's standards. No strategic thinking anywhere. This is something the President should overrule and reverse.

Bai, I ain't going to argue with you on some of these points, as you are correct.  I do take exception to you saying Indians were likely the first racists when the first settled.  I think it was just dealing with the unknown in a new place.  Having a loud unruly rebellious race nearby must not be comforting.  I'm sure the Brits warned Indians.  Look after all these generations what living next to Buxton brings Indians, death, destruction, robbery, etc.

Regarding all your other points, this is where Granger is failing.  He is allowing the old PNC behavior to take hold and why would anyone want to retire there to deal with these goons, would you?  You actually making my case against your case bai!

FM
TK posted:
politikalamity posted:
TK posted: Korea and Taiwan are examples. 

You do realize that there is a huge cultural difference between these two countries and Gy right?

You have probably travelled to Asia, I have done so extensively and their culture is major factor of what contributes to their economic success 

 

These places were much more lawless than Guyana in the 40s and 50s. However they all had a strong man to pull them in line. There is cultural difference but they are in no way superior to black or brown people. That myth has been exposed a long time in development econ literature that the Asians have some superior work ethic than other people.

Yes, absolutely, one man can make a difference.  FDR single-handedly brought back hope to the people in the USA during his presidency.  Granger had a chance on a golden platter and he destroyed it within months.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
VVP posted:
TK posted:

These places were much more lawless than Guyana in the 40s and 50s. However they all had a strong man to pull them in line. There is cultural difference but they are in no way superior to black or brown people. That myth has been exposed a long time in development econ literature that the Asians have some superior work ethic than other people.

Yes, absolutely, one man can make a difference.  FDR single-handedly brought back hope to the people in the USA during his presidency.  Granger had a chance on a golden platter and he destroyed it within months.

Correct!  The Caribj clan in the PNC seems to be winning the day!

FM

"Having a loud unruly rebellious race nearby must not be comforting.  I'm sure the Brits warned Indians.  Look after all these generations what living next to Buxton brings Indians, death, destruction, robbery, etc."

smh

Django
TK posted:
Drugb posted:

Retirees will not settle in Guyana, they are more sophisticated than what Guyana has to offer. TK believes that they are dumb lamb to be led to the slaughter. A second home, yes, but not the primary home. The security, access to health care, amenities, lack of rights under the Granger admin, and targets for the afc/pnc goons are some of the factors that would deter en masse re migration of retirees. 

This is a major source of foreign exchange for places like Greece, Belize and Croatia. The column recognizes the security situation. But I am more confident that this President can discipline the society versus someone like Jagdeo. At least give him credit for leding by example. There is already some sign of this. They got the mini busses to form a line, something I have been saying for years.

There once were very lawless societies that pull themselves together: Korea and Taiwan are examples. Belize has a lot of crimes, also. Although this govt is suffering from ideological dissonance on the economic front (the President one day is free market and next he is for village economies), they will bring down crimes in two years. You have also missed the point about weather. Someone people like me would never live north of Florida. I don't like the cold, let alone cold when I am 65. 55 degrees have me all strapping up here these last few days.  

No doubt it is but those are not donkey cart economies with predators preying on re migrants. Granger did not get mini buses to line up, this was implemented under the PPP under much protest from Ramjattan and Granger, now bottom feeders are taking credit for the PPP's accomplishments. 

FM
baseman posted:

Guyana is filled with political prostitutes.  I find even some in the diaspora get involved with politics have their own selfish agenda.  This is why they jump from PPP, AFC, PNC and whatever else, circling the political parking lot to find an empty slot.  I talk to my relatives back there, some wealthy and educated and they live their lives and stay far far away from the political class and politics.  Back in 2011 when i tried to push AFC onto them, they laughed saying these are all recycled politicians, looking for opportunity, same old, same old.

Look now, many had great hope in Granger, he got into power and wasted no time in reestablishing the old PNC crony racist order!  The people who put him there (AFC) are now floor cloth.

I have to say, the only true unselfish politician coming out of Guyana was CBJ, even if you don't agree with his politics.

Are you referring to the Author???

Nehru
Nehru posted:
baseman posted:

Guyana is filled with political prostitutes.  I find even some in the diaspora get involved with politics have their own selfish agenda.  This is why they jump from PPP, AFC, PNC and whatever else, circling the political parking lot to find an empty slot.  I talk to my relatives back there, some wealthy and educated and they live their lives and stay far far away from the political class and politics.  Back in 2011 when i tried to push AFC onto them, they laughed saying these are all recycled politicians, looking for opportunity, same old, same old.

Look now, many had great hope in Granger, he got into power and wasted no time in reestablishing the old PNC crony racist order!  The people who put him there (AFC) are now floor cloth.

I have to say, the only true unselfish politician coming out of Guyana was CBJ, even if you don't agree with his politics.

Are you referring to the Author???

Pavi don't drink all the likka today...you will need some for tomorrow and Tuesday...20 degrees for you.

FM
VVP posted:
TK posted:
politikalamity posted:
TK posted: Korea and Taiwan are examples. 

You do realize that there is a huge cultural difference between these two countries and Gy right?

You have probably travelled to Asia, I have done so extensively and their culture is major factor of what contributes to their economic success 

 

These places were much more lawless than Guyana in the 40s and 50s. However they all had a strong man to pull them in line. There is cultural difference but they are in no way superior to black or brown people. That myth has been exposed a long time in development econ literature that the Asians have some superior work ethic than other people.

Yes, absolutely, one man can make a difference.  FDR single-handedly brought back hope to the people in the USA during his presidency.  Granger had a chance on a golden platter and he destroyed it within months.

I still believe there is time. Seven months is too early. As I said, I think the crime rate will fall.

FM
VVP posted:
TK posted:
VVP posted:

TK - I cannot understand what you are saying here:

the remigrants must not interfere with the political patronage flows of local ethnic elites and ethnic masses. The proposal I present takes into consideration the idea that the primary reason why elites are in politics in Guyana is to control the system of government patronage. Given the intra-group ethnic networks and pro-ethnic voting, patronage tends to flow towards the ethnic masses of the government of the day (think state jobs and contracts) and some are used to pacify ethnic elites of the other group.

So are you saying "political patronage" is okay and remigrants should not be concerned about it?

 

It simply means because blacks and indos vote largely along racial lines patronage is skewed along ethnic lines. No one seems to get this fact and the task of a great leader is to break it up. Now, getting retirees to go there will be less likely to threaten the established networks of the day. The locals will benefit from FX and jobs. The retirees get a cultural reconnection and better weather for those who like the warmer climate. Patronage system is not okay or efficient, but it will be there as long as people vote for race. The idea of getting retirees to settle there is a way of working around the patronage problem. Mauritius had a patronage problem to solve in the early 1970s. Local capitalists who were also connected to the govt did not want to open up to foreign investments because they were afraid of competition. The then govt set elaborate EPZs that isolated the foreign investors from locals. Today people praise this as a model. 

Everyone blames the leaders but don't ask the question: what if we had voted for AFC in 2011? A genuine multiethnic party at the time? If 30% even voted AFC then there would be no need for coalition which was the only way to get the PPP on the benches so it reforms itself. But read Mr Ramkarran's piece in today's SN. The bad boy blaming everybody for PPP's loss in 2011 and 2015.

And why do you think people will return to a country where political patronage is prevalent?  People are not stupid.  For retirees to return the political system must change for the good.  This has to come about by actions not words.  

I have written off Granger for the simple fact that he released criminals without naming them (I am all for pardons but it cannot be done in secrecy), he surreptitiously raised salaries for himself and cohorts, and now he seems bent on militarizing the country.  Why should I pay attention to this government anymore?

I agree that people who return should not be given unfair competitive advantages over the locals...but that's another question. EPZs seems like a good idea.  Something similar could happen for retiree communities where the retirees are able to control their own destiny.  It would be an excellent idea to populate Essequibo with retirees but you have to have the right conditions and that is not happening in Guyana.

And about the AFC...they showed themselves to be a bunch of waste so their cark duck.

Because patronage and patron-client networks are facts of life in all countries: TT, US, Korea, Japan, etc. The difference is Guyana is underdeveloped and the political system is a major drag on progress. These other places have a better legal system to dear with the problem. TT will come under serious strain now with the $30 barrel oil. It will expose the racial distrust there like Guyana.

FM
baseman posted:

Bai, I ain't going to argue with you on some of these points, as you are correct.  I do take exception to you saying Indians were likely the first racists when the first settled.  I think it was just dealing with the unknown in a new place.  Having a loud unruly rebellious race nearby must not be comforting.  I'm sure the Brits warned Indians.  Look after all these generations what living next to Buxton brings Indians, death, destruction, robbery, etc.

Regarding all your other points, this is where Granger is failing.  He is allowing the old PNC behavior to take hold and why would anyone want to retire there to deal with these goons, would you?  You actually making my case against your case bai!

Where do you come up with this crap from banna?

The second hilited make the first one true, doan bother taking exception it's been proven right here.

cain
Last edited by cain
Drugb posted:

No doubt it is but those are not donkey cart economies with predators preying on re migrants. Granger did not get mini buses to line up, this was implemented under the PPP under much protest from Ramjattan and Granger, now bottom feeders are taking credit for the PPP's accomplishments. 

It's gotta be you who write for the Guyana Puke Times rag of lies and deceit.

cain
TK posted:
VVP posted:
TK posted:
politikalamity posted:
TK posted: Korea and Taiwan are examples. 

You do realize that there is a huge cultural difference between these two countries and Gy right?

You have probably travelled to Asia, I have done so extensively and their culture is major factor of what contributes to their economic success 

 

These places were much more lawless than Guyana in the 40s and 50s. However they all had a strong man to pull them in line. There is cultural difference but they are in no way superior to black or brown people. That myth has been exposed a long time in development econ literature that the Asians have some superior work ethic than other people.

Yes, absolutely, one man can make a difference.  FDR single-handedly brought back hope to the people in the USA during his presidency.  Granger had a chance on a golden platter and he destroyed it within months.

I still believe there is time. Seven months is too early. As I said, I think the crime rate will fall.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bibi Haniffa
Bibi Haniffa posted:
TK posted:

I still believe there is time. Seven months is too early. As I said, I think the crime rate will fall.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You cannot make this shyte up!!!

FM
cain posted:
baseman posted:

Bai, I ain't going to argue with you on some of these points, as you are correct.  I do take exception to you saying Indians were likely the first racists when the first settled.  I think it was just dealing with the unknown in a new place.  Having a loud unruly rebellious race nearby must not be comforting.  I'm sure the Brits warned Indians.  Look after all these generations what living next to Buxton brings Indians, death, destruction, robbery, etc.

Regarding all your other points, this is where Granger is failing.  He is allowing the old PNC behavior to take hold and why would anyone want to retire there to deal with these goons, would you?  You actually making my case against your case bai!

Where do you come up with this crap from banna?

The second hilited make the first one true, doan bother taking exception it's been proven right here.

Now, where did the "good professor" come up with the idea that Indians introduced racism to Guyana??

Now, don't your Putagee female relatives hold their purses at the sight of an Afro next to them.  Where did that shyte come from??

FM
baseman posted:
cain posted:
baseman posted:

Bai, I ain't going to argue with you on some of these points, as you are correct.  I do take exception to you saying Indians were likely the first racists when the first settled.  I think it was just dealing with the unknown in a new place.  Having a loud unruly rebellious race nearby must not be comforting.  I'm sure the Brits warned Indians.  Look after all these generations what living next to Buxton brings Indians, death, destruction, robbery, etc.

Regarding all your other points, this is where Granger is failing.  He is allowing the old PNC behavior to take hold and why would anyone want to retire there to deal with these goons, would you?  You actually making my case against your case bai!

Where do you come up with this crap from banna?

The second hilited make the first one true, doan bother taking exception it's been proven right here.

Now, where did the "good professor" come up with the idea that Indians introduced racism to Guyana??

Now, don't your Putagee female relatives hold their purses at the sight of an Afro next to them.  Where did that shyte come from??

Nope, my relatives smart, if they got stuff they doan flaunt it, no one the wiser.

Is a good ting Guyana aint got Indian tief man an killers eh baie?

cain

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