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Much has been made of President Obama’s reluctance to use the phrase Islamic Terrorism and Bill Maher has famously gotten into arguments with folks like Reza Aslan and I’m sure his “Vice” co-producer Fareed Zakaria.

 

The two keys to begin a conversation about whether there is such a thing as “Islamic Terrorism” is whether the Quran led to a legal system known as Sharia law and whether the Prophet Muhammad left a succession in place, like a Caliph and a caliphate.

 

The Quran in the Aleef Laam Meem states right in the beginning that “This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah." The Quran is meant to be a guide. There is only one Quran and thus no ambiguity about its Arabic. The guidance is also contained in the Hadiths (the examples of the life of the Prophet Muhammad).

The rulers of Arabia following the Prophet had to deal with other tribes and peoples that were conquered and thus had to incorporate their customs and practices in some form of jurisprudence.

 

The Prophet Muhammad was a Messenger of God could not have generated a succession as he was the last of the Prophets and a mere Messenger. There are those on the Board who can contribute to the question of the form of governance intended for people who followed the Quran.

 

The genesis of the two terrorist groups that are at the center of this discussion is interesting. Al Qaeda was born following the disapproval of the Saudi ruler to have the American-trained and supplied Mujahedin (fighting a proxy war on behalf of America to rid Afghanistan of the Russians) fight Saddam Hussein after his invasion of Kuwait. Osama did not want American boots on the Holy Land and vowed to fight this. ISIS is really the disbanded Baathists of Saddam Hussein (that name again) who suddenly felt outcast in their own land and dispossessed of power by the American-backed Shiite Al Maliki (even though Shiite Iran was America's sworn enemy).

Interestingly enough Saddam was telling the Gulf Cooperation Council with the US as an observer status member about the iniquities of the Saudis over its own proxy war fighting the dreaded Shiites of the Ayatollah's Iran on behalf of America and the slant drilling of the Kuwaitis thus stealing their oil.

 

President Obama knows these things as well as America lost a couple Trillion dollars on Bush's adventures in Iraq (and I'm even talking about the first Bush) and the soldiers' families are tired of losing their loved ones in futile overseas adventure. Raqqa versus Damascus and Badgad is a civil war - pure and simple and San Bernadino, Paris and Brussels pale in comparison to what goes on with Boka Haram and Al Shabbab. Is this civil war another man's Islamic Terrorism? You tell me!

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Arguing terminologies ought not be your focus.

What ought to intrigue you is why Islam, and not Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism, is the religion of choice for alienated lunatics who wish to create mayhem.

Why is it?  Don't babble about ISIS because this was happening before that.  Try the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, or extremist violence in Algeria.

FM
Nehru posted:

If America sit idle and let those ANIMALS destroy the World, what will you say???

Pavi, you really do think (I use this word liberally) that those ANIMALS can destroy the World? I have a bridge to sell ya.

Kari
Kari posted:
Nehru posted:

If America sit idle and let those ANIMALS destroy the World, what will you say???

Pavi, you really do think (I use this word liberally) that those ANIMALS can destroy the World? I have a bridge to sell ya.

Actually I do. If they are not taken care of they will certainly impose their way on the rest of the World.

Nehru
Nehru posted:
Kari posted:
Nehru posted:

If America sit idle and let those ANIMALS destroy the World, what will you say???

Pavi, you really do think (I use this word liberally) that those ANIMALS can destroy the World? I have a bridge to sell ya.

Actually I do. If they are not taken care of they will certainly impose their way on the rest of the World.

The bridge is still available for you.

Kari
Kari posted:
Nehru posted:
Kari posted:
Nehru posted:

If America sit idle and let those ANIMALS destroy the World, what will you say???

Pavi, you really do think (I use this word liberally) that those ANIMALS can destroy the World? I have a bridge to sell ya.

Actually I do. If they are not taken care of they will certainly impose their way on the rest of the World.

The bridge is still available for you.

Myself, the PNC sold you that bridge many times. It is one thing buying it once, but you bought it over and over again. You are indeed no Einstein.

Nehru
Kari posted:

Again CARIBNY your light is out of focus. It's tribal warfare going on over there. They don't own Islam, and no one has to defend Islam.

Thank you Sir!

Trust me D2 will show up.

Chief
Nehru posted:
Kari posted:
Nehru posted:

If America sit idle and let those ANIMALS destroy the World, what will you say???

Pavi, you really do think (I use this word liberally) that those ANIMALS can destroy the World? I have a bridge to sell ya.

Actually I do. If they are not taken care of they will certainly impose their way on the rest of the World.

What is "their way"?

Chief
Chief posted:
Kari posted:

Again CARIBNY your light is out of focus. It's tribal warfare going on over there. They don't own Islam, and no one has to defend Islam.

Thank you Sir!

Trust me D2 will show up.

You do not call me if you do not want me here. Kari is writing muslim apologetic. He does not want me answer in kind. That Sura is called the cow ( actually has imponderable letters as a name) because of a reference in it. It is however argumentation of a cow and not from the mind of any omniscient being. Note this is my view and not a prevailing western view. I am the heathen..who thinks god delusion is a disease and this represents delusion at its max given the nonsense it contains.

And here I go with the usual indictment....the lack of a tradition of rational examination of belief and a philosophy of theology that one can readily  refer to to validate theological belief.

As for the insistence this is a tribal war...it is Sunni and Shia tribes coalescing to fight around theology reduced to provincialism because there is not proper tradition of what is the faith.

The idea that anyone does not "owns" islam is not an excuse. One must take ownership of faith and explain the prevalence of misuse of a faith tradition to rationalize cruelty. The internecine struggles there are all supposedly guided by faith and they are anti life, blood cults that affirm enmity against the west and the western tradition.

If the west took that tack those suckers would be toast..literal toast because what they are willing to do if reciprocated would only take the west five minutes to execute. That shows who is about life, reason and peace.

FM
Last edited by Former Member

Stormie, you again confuse the terms "Muslim" and "Islam". They're two different things. "Islam" is the religion and heathens obviously want no truck with religion. "Muslim" describes someone who subscribe to the religion of Islam. This thread is about Islam and not its adherents. Understand this and you will understand why I assert that the religion Islam needs no defenders. It does not call for a succession to God's last Messenger (the Prophet Muhammad) and its holy Book, the Quran, is a revelation that is a guidance. Unlike the US Constitution it does not promote itself as an instrument of jurisprudence, but merely a Guide for those who fear God (fear is not used in a pejorative sense here).

Kari
Kari posted:

Again CARIBNY your light is out of focus. It's tribal warfare going on over there. They don't own Islam, and no one has to defend Islam.

I wonder if those who they slaughter, for no reason other than being Christian, or being the "wrong" kind of Muslim, or being secular, will agree that they don't base their actions on a misguided notion of Islam.

Chat with those Christian kids in Kenya.  The bus stopped.  The goons didn't mention ethnic names.  They conducted a test to see who was or was not Muslim.  They killed the latter.  This has happened on several occasions.

It is mainly in majority Muslim lands that religion is used as a basis for savage acts.  Now if that doesn't bother you as a Muslim I can only wonder about you.  This is 2016, not 1516 with the Inquisition, or 1665 when Protestants and Catholics burned each other on the stake.

FM

CARIBNY a gun does not kill, it's the user of the gun that kills. Islam is like an instrument - use it the way its intended and it serves its purpose. When outsiders, and yes ISIS is an outsider (they're Baathist secularists in the main who mis-use this instrument), bastardize it don't blame the religion or its adherents. Would you blame the 95% or so Americans who possess a gun for the 5% or so that stole and have illegal guns who commit most of the gun murders? If the Baathists were living in the Philippines (heavily Catholic) then Christianity would be the tool for their insurgent acts. Would you blame the religion of Christianity or the Billion Christians who live peacefully. Semantics is your excuse for misunderstanding this fundamental truth.

Kari
Kari posted:

CARIBNY a gun does not kill, it's the user of the gun that kills.

You do refuse to admit that it is within Islam where the bulk of GLOBAL terrorist activity resides.

Using your logic, you should support Ted Cruz who is adamant that weapons manufacturers and dealers shouldn't have any culpability for the fact that the US has the highest level of gun violence among the developed nations.

It is the duty of Muslims, since you lack a hierarchy along the lines of most Christian denominations, to seek to understand why this concentration of religiously based violence within your community.

Here is what you need to understand.  The rest of the non Muslim world will find solutions to this problem, and if Muslims aren't part of this process, you mightn't like what they come up with. 

Watch Bill Maher, a card carrying liberal, if you doubt.  His rhetoric on this issue is scarcely different from that of Trump, and yet his crowd, mainly lefty type Bernie freaks, don't seem upset.

So it is incumbent upon Muslims that they be involved, rather than holding on to Islam, and screaming that they don't have to be concerned about this!

FM

Like Bill Maher, CARIBNY wants to have Islam the religion disappear from this planet. Bill Maher is an avowed Athiest. CARIBNY should come clean like Stormie on his anti-religion stand.

Kari
Kari posted:

Like Bill Maher, CARIBNY wants to have Islam the religion disappear from this planet. Bill Maher is an avowed Athiest. CARIBNY should come clean like Stormie on his anti-religion stand.

I repeat.  If Trump like views reach Maher's audience, and they don't state their disapproval, then it does indicate that actions, which you will not like, will not be seen as deeply problematic.

Because Maher will ban Muslims, if he had his way, because he doesn't see Muslims as being part of the solution.  And if he can OPENLY state this in front of a LIBERAL audience, then imagine what the majority of the population thinks at moments where they don't have to pretend to be PC.

So continue to think that Muslims don't have to be part of the solution.

FM
Kari posted:

Stormie, you again confuse the terms "Muslim" and "Islam". They're two different things. "Islam" is the religion and heathens obviously want no truck with religion. "Muslim" describes someone who subscribe to the religion of Islam. This thread is about Islam and not its adherents. Understand this and you will understand why I assert that the religion Islam needs no defenders. It does not call for a succession to God's last Messenger (the Prophet Muhammad) and its holy Book, the Quran, is a revelation that is a guidance. Unlike the US Constitution it does not promote itself as an instrument of jurisprudence, but merely a Guide for those who fear God (fear is not used in a pejorative sense here).

You are confusing yourself. Not one sentence of mine above can be construed as to be confusing the holy book with adherents. I said there is no philosophical tradition that queries and probes islam for its truth and certitude. No one dares do that for fear of being accused of apostasy or defamation of the book. There is no imperative to think in Islam, only believe. Compoung that with no definitive authority on the fate ( because the book is so simple and true!!!) that every local mullah is an authority. One of the peculiarity of this non thinking and complete submissive believing system is that no one even questions horrible edicts from these completely moronic ( in my mind) mullahs!

Comparing the US constitution with the Koran is a new and silly tact. The Constitution has a long legacy of interrogation of it and admits to failing hence amendments etc.

FM
Stormborn posted:
The idea that anyone does not "owns" islam is not an excuse. One must take ownership of faith and explain the prevalence of misuse of a faith tradition to rationalize cruelty. The internecine struggles there are all supposedly guided by faith and they are anti life, blood cults that affirm enmity against the west and the western tradition.

If the west took that tack those suckers would be toast..literal toast because what they are willing to do if reciprocated would only take the west five minutes to execute. That shows who is about life, reason and peace.

As Dave Martin Said "Is who civilized and who is the Jacka$$"

AJ
Abu Jihad posted:
 

As Dave Martin Said "Is who civilized and who is the Jacka$$"

I look forward eagerly as you excuse the barbarities of the Islamists by pretending as if there is an equivalent behavior in the West.

Look to see where Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans are fleeing to as they seek to escape the barbarities committed by their own people.

Of course Saudi Arabia, the center of Islam, isn't their favored destination.

FM
caribny posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
 

As Dave Martin Said "Is who civilized and who is the Jacka$$"

I look forward eagerly as you excuse the barbarities of the Islamists by pretending as if there is an equivalent behavior in the West.

 

Yes, Obamas drone program, it kills innocent people 90% of the time.  It is the main recruiting tool for extremists.  

AJ
Kari posted:

CARIBNY a gun does not kill, it's the user of the gun that kills. Islam is like an instrument - use it the way its intended and it serves its purpose. When outsiders, and yes ISIS is an outsider (they're Baathist secularists in the main who mis-use this instrument), bastardize it don't blame the religion or its adherents. Would you blame the 95% or so Americans who possess a gun for the 5% or so that stole and have illegal guns who commit most of the gun murders? If the Baathists were living in the Philippines (heavily Catholic) then Christianity would be the tool for their insurgent acts. Would you blame the religion of Christianity or the Billion Christians who live peacefully. Semantics is your excuse for misunderstanding this fundamental truth.

If the Baathists were living in the Phillippines, they would be peaceful Christians

FM
RiffRaff posted:
Kari posted:

CARIBNY a gun does not kill, it's the user of the gun that kills. Islam is like an instrument - use it the way its intended and it serves its purpose. When outsiders, and yes ISIS is an outsider (they're Baathist secularists in the main who mis-use this instrument), bastardize it don't blame the religion or its adherents. Would you blame the 95% or so Americans who possess a gun for the 5% or so that stole and have illegal guns who commit most of the gun murders? If the Baathists were living in the Philippines (heavily Catholic) then Christianity would be the tool for their insurgent acts. Would you blame the religion of Christianity or the Billion Christians who live peacefully. Semantics is your excuse for misunderstanding this fundamental truth.

If the Baathists were living in the Phillippines, they would be peaceful Christians

Not after having the good life taken away and they still have their guns and ammo and military savvy.

Kari

Of course not. No excuse either for the 2003 invasion by the USA that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and for interfering with another country's internal Administration  (Paul Bremmer and Rumsfeld de-Baathification), though when genocide is threatened then the USA has to intervene.

Kari
Abu Jihad posted:
caribny posted:
Abu Jihad posted:
 

As Dave Martin Said "Is who civilized and who is the Jacka$$"

I look forward eagerly as you excuse the barbarities of the Islamists by pretending as if there is an equivalent behavior in the West.

 

Yes, Obamas drone program, it kills innocent people 90% of the time.  It is the main recruiting tool for extremists.  

For every innocent person who Obama kills your Islamist fanatics kill 100X more.

Is Obama sending drones to Nigeria?  NO!  Yet thousands have been slaughtered there by Islamists.

FM
Kari posted:

Remove the 2003 invasion of Iraq and tell me if there would be an ISIS today. Be honest.

You are telling me that Muslims are like kids so must be forgiven because they had a bad parent?

ISIS is killing their own fellow Arabs, so what does that have to do with Bush.

BTW the vast majority of the killing in Iraq was Muslim on Muslim, with Christians  being driven out of that country.

I challenge you to tell me of a majority Muslim country where a Christian has the same freedoms as YOU have as a Muslim in this majority Christian country!  Reveal yourself as the hypocrite that you are!

FM
Kari posted:

Remove the 2003 invasion of Iraq and tell me if there would be an ISIS today. Be honest.

Al Queda was already in existence. 9/11 happened before 2003. Poor excuse to justify islamic terrorism, which goes back centuries. Since the days of Sunni versus Shia that religion as been at war with itself.

Mr.T
Mr.T posted:
Kari posted:

Remove the 2003 invasion of Iraq and tell me if there would be an ISIS today. Be honest.

Al Queda was already in existence. 9/11 happened before 2003. Poor excuse to justify islamic terrorism, which goes back centuries. Since the days of Sunni versus Shia that religion as been at war with itself.

Kari likes to pretend as if lunatics killing in the name of Allah only began with ISIS.

He refuses to chat about the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, or the violent zealotry of Algeria.  BOTH occurring with NO involvement of western elements in those lands.

I look forward to him citing a majority Muslim land which is as tolerant to Christians as the USA and the UK and Canada is to him as a Muslim.

FM
caribny posted:

ISIS is killing their own fellow Arabs, so what does that have to do with Bush.

BTW the vast majority of the killing in Iraq was Muslim on Muslim, with Christians  being driven out of that country.

I challenge you to tell me of a majority Muslim country where a Christian has the same freedoms as YOU have as a Muslim in this majority Christian country!  Reveal yourself as the hypocrite that you are!

ISIS is killing their own fellow Arabs, so what does that have to do with Bush.

 

Everything......ISIS IS Bush's creation. No invasion and thus no de-baathification and no ISIS. Easy?

Tribal civil war - Sunnis and Shiites going at it. Easy?

Look at Jordan, Tunisia, and the Arab countries not involved in civil wars and you'll see where minority religion is protected. Coptic Christians in Egypt are free as Muslims are in America. Saudi Arabia is a hell hole yes, but it is not the totality of Islam, even though the holy places are there.

Maybe in Arabic countries open consumption of alcohol and covered clothing is a combination of culture, tradition and religion, but not wholly religion.

Reveal yourself as the hypocrite that you are!

I'm curious - what is it about this?

Kari
Kari posted:

 

  Coptic Christians in Egypt are free as Muslims are in America. Saudi Arabia is a hell hole yes, but it is not the totality of Islam, even though the holy places are there.

You are obviously not ware of how many hundreds of Coptic Christians have been murdered by Muslims in Egypt in just the last five years, and churches burnt down.  You can own a quran in the US. You can't own a Bible in Saudi Arabia.

Mr.T
Kari posted:
caribny posted:

!

ISIS is killing their own fellow Arabs, so what does that have to do with Bush.

 

Everything......ISIS IS Bush's creation. No invasion and thus no de-baathification and no ISIS. Easy?

 

And so what is your excuse for Boko Haram, for the problems of Mali, Sudan, Algeria, and the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, which have conducted periodic anti Christian genocidal killings.  Tribal? 

I think not.

 

FM
Kari posted:
.

Reveal yourself as the hypocrite that you are!

I'm curious - what is it about this?

Your freedom to spout your ideology which a Christian CANNOT do in any majority Muslim country.

In fact where in Nigeria does the religious killings occur? In the Muslim north.  Not in the south where Christians and traditional religions dominate!

FM
Mr.T posted:
Kari posted:

 

  Coptic Christians in Egypt are free as Muslims are in America. Saudi Arabia is a hell hole yes, but it is not the totality of Islam, even though the holy places are there.

You are obviously not ware of how many hundreds of Coptic Christians have been murdered by Muslims in Egypt in just the last five years, and churches burnt down.  You can own a quran in the US. You can't own a Bible in Saudi Arabia.

Kari is fully aware.  He just wants to pretend as if only Bush is responsible for lunatics waging their "jihad" against other Muslims, and non Muslims.

Charlie Hebdo.  Can one imagine Christians in 2016 killing any one merely because of a drawing?

Kari needs to admit that a segment of the Muslim religion have regressed to religious based barbarities which the rest of us left behind 200 years ago.

FM
Mr.T posted:
Kari posted:

 

  Coptic Christians in Egypt are free as Muslims are in America. Saudi Arabia is a hell hole yes, but it is not the totality of Islam, even though the holy places are there.

You are obviously not ware of how many hundreds of Coptic Christians have been murdered by Muslims in Egypt in just the last five years, and churches burnt down.  You can own a quran in the US. You can't own a Bible in Saudi Arabia.

I  addressed Saudi Arabia already - they're a horror story. Violence against Coptics are not government sponsored or condoned - even when the Brotherhood had power briefly. The military is always in control.

Kari

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