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Mr. Ramjattan’s analysis of the role of Third Parties in race-based politics is interesting
January 28, 2012 | By KNews | Filed Under Letters




DEAR EDITOR,

The Chairman of Alliance for Change (AFC) Khemraj Ramjattan has made an interesting analysis of the role of Third Parties in race-based politics which needs to be discussed in depth, and I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in this discussion.

All political parties are coalitions of numerous interest groups and therein lies a cause for dissent, since it is unlikely in a changing political environment that any party can serve the needs of all its interest groups all the time.

However, what is more often the case is the usurping of power by groups of individuals who then establish a bureaucratic stranglehold over the party. This is then copied when they gain political power, leading to the blurring of lines between party and government.

In this entrenched position they become a law unto themselves which results in splits and break away groups emerging as more and more individuals become frustrated with not being able to change what is happening around them. Hence they seek redress elsewhere, which is a natural phenomenon of most maturing democratic societies with a history dominated by race, class and/or religion.

Put another way, splits are inevitable where and when differences are exploited to perpetuate the self-serving interest of a dominant group within the ruling party, with individuals often the brightest in the party having to find new homes to fulfil their political aspirations.

The emergence of Third Parties in Guyanese politics is a direct result of the failure of the PNC and the PPP to make any serious attempt to address the ‘Race Question’ and on occasions openly fuelling it, to gain short term political mileage. This is aided by the winner-take-all politics of Guyana where the governing party has immense patronage and power at its disposal and uses this to reward and corrupt those who serve its interest.

Defections result in the formation of new political parties, for example in the 1970s, we saw the emergence of a string of parties including the WPA and in the 2000s, among others, the AFC. Unlike the WPA, a number of AFC leaders held prominent positions in both the PNC and the PPP and had firsthand experience of the corruption that drove them out. The AFC fought the elections on an anti-PPP ticket, with particular emphasis on the endemic level that corruption had reached during its time in office. A further difference is AFC has 7 seats in the Legislative Assembly and is in the position to bring about fundamental change in Guyanese politics.

The big question is what it does now; that will determine whether its influence will be a flash in the pan and important as it is, “helped to stave off post-elections violence” or working with the much larger APNU and hammer out a ‘Programme for Change’ ’ while laying the foundation of becoming the party of government.

To start with, the opposition must get tough with the PPP and let them know that they may be in office but not in power. It must stop the PPP from further corrupting the political process by stopping it from making any more senior appointments, issuing licences or contracts. It must demand equal access to the public broadcasting service and holding of local elections. The opposition must in accordance to its majority in the National Assembly, hold the Chairmanship to a majority of the scrutiny subcommittees. The straight answer is, not who it supports but what it supports.

It is neither inevitable that a Third Party can prevent violence and/or allow greater opportunities for participation.

The relevance of a Third Party is where it stands on the issues that divide people and how it proposes to resolve them so it can have the desired result.

In Guyana, the essential divide is race and the cronyism that it breeds.

Most of us know that this behaviour is now the accepted culture of the PPP and that they are incapable of doing anything about it. Even their traditional core supporters are in large numbers beginning to understand that what they are doing is wrong and is in nobody’s interest but the few it serves.

Furthermore, that it has resulted in the widening of the gulf between the haves and the have-nots.

The AFC more than any other party has benefited from this disaffection, and how it responds to the trust given to it will determine it future.

Basil Bollers

source

Replies sorted oldest to newest

quote:
The emergence of Third Parties in Guyanese politics is a direct result of the failure of the PNC and the PPP to make any serious attempt to address the ‘Race Question’ and on occasions openly fuelling it, to gain short term political mileage. This is aided by the winner-take-all politics of Guyana where the governing party has immense patronage and power at its disposal and uses this to reward and corrupt those who serve its interest.


.
Mitwah
Di man rite but di prablim, nobady trust di PNC. Abie coolies tink da PNC juss playing game and gon bring bak old PNC glory day wenn dem beat and treat abie like sh1t fa 28 years. We geh wan lil taste dis election wenn dem bin goa an' tel dem people datt wenn dem tek ovva, denm nevva evva gon be out again. Da GDF and PNC is a baaad baaad combination. Personally, mi like sometings da PNC seh but me nah believe dem gon be clean and evva gon hold free elections again. Jimmy Carter ain't gon come donk hay foa save abie coolies again.

Nex ting, abie nah trust all dem AFC bais, dem is PNC. If PNC tek powah, AFC gon become like da UF.
FM
Sledge, you used the key word, "trust" The disaffected would either be PPP or PNC members / supporters. How the party and supporters respond to this will defintely determine the longetivity of the AFC.

For Guyana to progress there must be a narrowing of the gulf between the two major races.
Mitwah
quote:
Originally posted by Mitwah:
Sledge, you used the key word, "trust" The disaffected would either be PPP or PNC members / supporters. How the party and supporters respond to this will defintely determine the longetivity of the AFC.

For Guyana to progress there must be a narrowing of the gulf between the two major races.


Note that the AFC polled 30,000 Indian votes, but lost 20,000 afros from the last election.

It doesn't look to me like the AFC are doing a good job either. Maybe the next election could be a stepping stone to what you hopes for if the AFC can mobilize them.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
. . . dem bin goa an' tel dem people datt wenn dem tek ovva, denm nevva evva gon be out again.

What a hypocrite!

Isn't that also YOUR bottom line??
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Mitwah:
Sledge, you used the key word, "trust" The disaffected would either be PPP or PNC members / supporters. How the party and supporters respond to this will defintely determine the longetivity of the AFC.

For Guyana to progress there must be a narrowing of the gulf between the two major races.

Datt's tough, fuss ting is tek datt GDF and put under somme judicial control away from either political influence. Set up joint governance foa mek shure top member go thru vettin' process undea da control of da "race relations" commission. Also, ban politiking of da GDF officers. Wenn da GDF out da PNC (political) control, den abie cyan taalk bai.

Me nah tink dem bais gon agree foa datt. Den PNC bais want powah wis GDF in dem back packet.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Mitwah:
The AFC more than any other party has benefited from this disaffection, and how it responds to the trust given to it will determine it future.

Basil Bollers

source



Mitts:

In the history of Guyana, the largest percentage of votes a 3rd party has ever acquired in an election was the 12% of the votes the United Force received in 1964.

The AFC received nearly 8% of the votes in 2006 and 10.3% in 2011.

THERE IS A CLEAR LIMIT AS TO WHAT PERCENTAGE OF VOTES A 3RD PARTY IN GUYANA WILL RECEIVE!

It's 12%--and the AFC is close to that limit.

That's why I have referred to the AFC as the 10% party---they will always attract the protest votes---but will never be a major political party in Guyana.

Rev
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
. . . fuss ting is tek datt GDF and put under somme judicial control away from either political influence. Set up joint governance foa mek shure top member go thru vettin' process undea da control of da "race relations" commission. Also, ban politiking of da GDF officers. Wenn da GDF out da PNC (political) control, den abie cyan taalk bai.

Cut the bullshit disinformation! . . . You're talking to adults here.

WHOSE "political influence" purged the senior officer corps and pitchforked Commodore Best into the top spot @ the GDF??

Buried deep within the confused fakery & nonsense in your post is your hegemonist "solution" to the Indo-Guyanese security dilemma . . . "Cultivate the FEAR, and keep the PPP criminals in powah no matter what"!

Try HONEST, less arrogant, and 'inclusive' governance with frank engagement of ALL the people in crafting solutions to our intractable problems . . . you'd be surprised.

The AFC is providing leadership here . . . stop standing in the way of progress!
FM
quote:
Originally posted by redux:
quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
. . . fuss ting is tek datt GDF and put under somme judicial control away from either political influence. Set up joint governance foa mek shure top member go thru vettin' process undea da control of da "race relations" commission. Also, ban politiking of da GDF officers. Wenn da GDF out da PNC (political) control, den abie cyan taalk bai.

Cut the bullshit disinformation! . . . You're talking to adults here.

WHOSE "political influence" purged the senior officer corps and pitchforked Commodore Best into the top spot @ the GDF??

Buried deep within the confused fakery & nonsense in your post is your hegemonist "solution" to the Indo-Guyanese security dilemma . . . "Cultivate the FEAR, and keep the PPP criminals in powah no matter what"!

Try HONEST, less arrogant, and 'inclusive' governance with frank engagement of ALL the people in crafting solutions to our intractable problems . . . you'd be surprised.

The AFC is providing leadership here . . . stop standing in the way of progress!

Alyuh nah pull wool ova abie eyey. Yu see, 90% dem GDF banna vote fa PNC, is natt gon tekk nuff foa dem re-establish da PNC-GDF wicked powah structure. Dem ole PNC bais bin done seh who and who dem goa put pan ice and get rid of fa bring bak "professionalism" to da GDF. As mi seh, yuh cyan taalk from now till Kaiteur falls stap fall, yuh nah fool abie....nat tis time.

Da fack datt yuh react to mi poost soa straang tell me, yuh know da truth. Me know da AFC is riteat heart and poviding da leadership, but PNC gatt dem own ideas it show up Nov 28.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
quote:
Originally posted by redux:
quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
. . . fuss ting is tek datt GDF and put under somme judicial control away from either political influence. Set up joint governance foa mek shure top member go thru vettin' process undea da control of da "race relations" commission. Also, ban politiking of da GDF officers. Wenn da GDF out da PNC (political) control, den abie cyan taalk bai.

Cut the bullshit disinformation! . . . You're talking to adults here.

WHOSE "political influence" purged the senior officer corps and pitchforked Commodore Best into the top spot @ the GDF??

Buried deep within the confused fakery & nonsense in your post is your hegemonist "solution" to the Indo-Guyanese security dilemma . . . "Cultivate the FEAR, and keep the PPP criminals in powah no matter what"!

Try HONEST, less arrogant, and 'inclusive' governance with frank engagement of ALL the people in crafting solutions to our intractable problems . . . you'd be surprised.

The AFC is providing leadership here . . . stop standing in the way of progress!

Alyuh nah pull wool ova abie eyey. Yu see, 90% dem GDF banna vote fa PNC, is natt gon tekk nuff foa dem re-establish da PNC-GDF wicked powah structure. Dem ole PNC bais bin done seh who and who dem goa put pan ice and get rid of fa bring bak "professionalism" to da GDF. As mi seh, yuh cyan taalk from now till Kaiteur falls stap fall, yuh nah fool abie....nat tis time.

Da fack datt yuh react to mi poost soa straang tell me, yuh know da truth. Me know da AFC is riteat heart and poviding da leadership, but PNC gatt dem own ideas it show up Nov 28.

What you are 'afraid' to say is that "90% dem GDF banna vote fa PNC [are Black]" because that would force a REAL conversation about the corrupted institutions of power, and their perpetuation in a racially divided Guyana.

This is evident since you dispute NOTHING that I have posted, but characterize my "react[ion]" as "strange" while burbling ignorantly about "da PNC-GDF wicked powah structure" instituted by JAGDEO!!

Running your stinking RACIST underwear up the flagpole aside . . . let me educate you a lil something about Indo-Guyanese:

They will continue to resist joining the disciplined forces in numbers because they rationally perceive those institutions as tools of unearned Privilege, Corruption and Oppression, unworthy of their service & sacrifice . . . JUST as they resisted joining the GDF, Police and GNS under BURNHAM!

and . . . while you continue your nasty little dance in service to the little dictators, the lines outside the ABC embassies grow longer
FM
quote:
Originally posted by redux:
quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
Alyuh nah pull wool ova abie eyey. Yu see, 90% dem GDF banna vote fa PNC, is natt gon tekk nuff foa dem re-establish da PNC-GDF wicked powah structure. Dem ole PNC bais bin done seh who and who dem goa put pan ice and get rid of fa bring bak "professionalism" to da GDF. As mi seh, yuh cyan taalk from now till Kaiteur falls stap fall, yuh nah fool abie....nat tis time.

Da fack datt yuh react to mi poost soa straang tell me, yuh know da truth. Me know da AFC is riteat heart and poviding da leadership, but PNC gatt dem own ideas it show up Nov 28.

What you are 'afraid' to say is that "90% dem GDF banna vote fa PNC [are Black]" because that would force a REAL conversation about the corrupted institutions of power, and their perpetuation in a racially divided Guyana.

This is evident since you dispute NOTHING that I have posted, but characterize my "react[ion]" as "strange" while burbling ignorantly about "da PNC-GDF wicked powah structure" instituted by JAGDEO!!

Running your stinking RACIST underwear up the flagpole aside . . . let me educate you a lil something about Indo-Guyanese:

They will continue to resist joining the disciplined forces in numbers because they rationally perceive those institutions as tools of unearned Privilege, Corruption and Oppression, unworthy of their service & sacrifice . . . JUST as they resisted joining the GDF, Police and GNS under BURNHAM!

and . . . while you continue your nasty little dance in service to the little dictators, the lines outside the ABC embassies grow longer

Oooye clown, exactly wazz yuh prablem wid me seying da GDF be unda some non-political conrol. All datt shyte yuh talk aint mean squatt to abie coolies. Wazz da prablem wit da GDF out from political control. Like da brick hutt yuh bakside nah.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
quote:
Originally posted by redux:
quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
Alyuh nah pull wool ova abie eyey. Yu see, 90% dem GDF banna vote fa PNC, is natt gon tekk nuff foa dem re-establish da PNC-GDF wicked powah structure. Dem ole PNC bais bin done seh who and who dem goa put pan ice and get rid of fa bring bak "professionalism" to da GDF. As mi seh, yuh cyan taalk from now till Kaiteur falls stap fall, yuh nah fool abie....nat tis time.

Da fack datt yuh react to mi poost soa straang tell me, yuh know da truth. Me know da AFC is riteat heart and poviding da leadership, but PNC gatt dem own ideas it show up Nov 28.

What you are 'afraid' to say is that "90% dem GDF banna vote fa PNC [are Black]" because that would force a REAL conversation about the corrupted institutions of power, and their perpetuation in a racially divided Guyana.

This is evident since you dispute NOTHING that I have posted, but characterize my "react[ion]" as "strange" while burbling ignorantly about "da PNC-GDF wicked powah structure" . . . instituted by JAGDEO!!

Running your stinking RACIST underwear up the flagpole aside . . . let me educate you a lil something about Indo-Guyanese:

They will continue to resist joining the disciplined forces in numbers because they rationally perceive those institutions as tools of unearned Privilege, Corruption and Oppression, unworthy of their service & sacrifice . . . JUST as they resisted joining the GDF, Police and GNS under BURNHAM!

and . . . while you continue your nasty little dance in service to the little dictators, the lines outside the ABC embassies grow longer

Oooye clown, exactly wazz yuh prablem wid me seying da GDF be unda some non-political conrol. All datt shyte yuh talk aint mean squatt to abie coolies. Wazz da prablem wit da GDF out from political control. Like da brick hutt yuh bakside nah.

Your non-response is noted.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
quote:
Originally posted by Mitwah:
The AFC more than any other party has benefited from this disaffection, and how it responds to the trust given to it will determine it future.

Basil Bollers

source



Mitts:

In the history of Guyana, the largest percentage of votes a 3rd party has ever acquired in an election was the 12% of the votes the United Force received in 1964.

The AFC received nearly 8% of the votes in 2006 and 10.3% in 2011.

THERE IS A CLEAR LIMIT AS TO WHAT PERCENTAGE OF VOTES A 3RD PARTY IN GUYANA WILL RECEIVE!

It's 12%--and the AFC is close to that limit.

That's why I have referred to the AFC as the 10% party---they will always attract the protest votes---but will never be a major political party in Guyana.

Rev


Rev, is wan wan dutty duz build a dam. Wink The AFC underestimated the Granger factor in the last election. Like I said during the campaign, I will be happy even if it is only one seat that the AFC won and it has the balance power. I beleive the AFC can narrow the gap of the great race divide, if it persists in adhering to a steady course of action.
Mitwah
quote:
Originally posted by Ramakant_p:
quote:
Originally posted by Mitwah:
Sledge, you used the key word, "trust" The disaffected would either be PPP or PNC members / supporters. How the party and supporters respond to this will defintely determine the longetivity of the AFC.

For Guyana to progress there must be a narrowing of the gulf between the two major races.


Note that the AFC polled 30,000 Indian votes, but lost 20,000 afros from the last election.

It doesn't look to me like the AFC are doing a good job either. Maybe the next election could be a stepping stone to what you hopes for if the AFC can mobilize them.


Nice comment. Wink Indeed the AFC underestimated the Granger factor. It's only a matter of time as history tells us that a coalition like APNU will disintigrate. The AFC must start campainging now for the next election.
Mitwah
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
That's why I have referred to the AFC as the 10% party---they will always attract the protest votes---but will never be a major political party in Guyana. Rev
Why not?
A
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Why not?


antabanta:

Why not you ask ? Why wont the AFC develop into a major party in Guyana ?

It's simple!

Human beings are creatures of habit--and habits are difficult to change.

The Guyanese people have gotten used to the 2 major parties--the PPP and PNC(now re-branded apnu)---and because the people have become accustomed or acculturated to these 2 parties---a 3rd party will never become a major party in Guyana.

OLD HABITS ARE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK.

It will forever be the PPP and PNC(apnu)---and parties like the AFC---3rd parties will always attract the protest voters.

Rev
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Why not?


antabanta:

Why not you ask ? Why wont the AFC develop into a major party in Guyana ?

It's simple!

Human beings are creatures of habit--and habits are difficult to change.

The Guyanese people have gotten used to the 2 major parties--the PPP and PNC(now re-branded apnu)---and because the people have become accustomed or acculturated to these 2 parties---a 3rd party will never become a major party in Guyana.

OLD HABITS ARE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK.

It will forever be the PPP and PNC(apnu)---and parties like the AFC---3rd parties will always attract the protest voters.

Rev
Based on your doctrine above there can never be a black president of the US? Your dogma is because it's never happened before it can never happen? If that were true we would still be living in caves.
A
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Based on your doctrine above there can never be a black president of the US? Your dogma is because it's never happened before it can never happen? If that were true we would still be living in caves.


Banta:

You clearly dont comprehend my explanation above. That's OK!


RE: 3Rd PARTIES

Just like in the United States where the 2 major parties(democrats and republicans) dominate and most 3rd attract the protest votes---it's the same thing in Guyana---the PPP and PNC dominate---and 3rd parties like th AFC will always attract the protest votes.

Americans and Guyanese have become accustomed to the 2 major parties in their respective countries---therefore it's nearly impossible for any 3rd party to become a major force.


Rev
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Based on your doctrine above there can never be a black president of the US? Your dogma is because it's never happened before it can never happen? If that were true we would still be living in caves.


Banta:

You clearly dont comprehend my explanation above. That's OK!


RE: 3Rd PARTIES

Just like in the United States where the 2 major parties(democrats and republicans) dominate and most 3rd attract the protest votes---it's the same thing in Guyana---the PPP and PNC dominate---and 3rd parties like th AFC will always attract the protest votes.
Americans and Guyanese have become accustomed to the 2 major parties in their respective countries---therefore it's nearly impossible for any 3rd party to become a major force.
Rev
You clearly cannot fathom my response. Obviously you're saying as it is so shall it always be... in both the US and Guyana. I'm suggesting you should consider if that were true we would all still be living in caves, not to mention, the PNC would still be in power in Guyana, there would never be a black man as president of the US, Russion could never be capitalist, Cuba would always be communist, etc., etc., etc.
The point is your rationale is unsound.
A
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
You clearly cannot fathom my response. Obviously you're saying as it is so shall it always be... in both the US and Guyana.


Banta:

I am not saying, "as it is so shall it always be." What I am saying is human behavior very rarely deviates from the norm---humans are creatures of HABITS---good habits and bad habits.

Here is a verifiable truth--a FACT:

In the history of the United States, the country has been led by one of the 2 major parties(Democrats or Republican.)

and

In the history of Guyana, the country has been led by one of the 2 major parties(PPP or PNC).

THE ABOVE IS A VERIFIABLE TRUTH---A FACT.


Now antabanta, the Rev has proffered an explanation.

I have suggested that because the people in both Guyana and the United States have become accustomed or acclimatized or acculturated to the 2 major parties they are predisposed to voting for either of those parties in a general election---and those who are disaffected by the major parties---the protest voters---will vote for a 3rd party.

I made the argument that because people are habitually predisposed to voting for one of the 2 major parties, it is highly unlikely that a 3rd party will ever emerge as a major party.


HISTORY PROVES THE REV RIGHT!

In the history of the United States and the history of Guyana no 3rd party has ever become a major political force.

EXPLANATION:

You can't change HUMAN BEHAVIOR in a major way.


You need to be more open minded antabanta---that's the only way you'll follow the Rev's point of view.

Rev
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
You clearly cannot fathom my response. Obviously you're saying as it is so shall it always be... in both the US and Guyana.


Banta:

I am not saying, "as it is so shall it always be." What I am saying is human behavior very rarely deviates from the norm---humans are creatures of HABITS---good habits and bad habits.

Here is a verifiable truth--a FACT:

In the history of the United States, the country has been led by one of the 2 major parties(Democrats or Republican.)

and

In the history of Guyana, the country has been led by one of the 2 major parties(PPP or PNC).

THE ABOVE IS A VERIFIABLE TRUTH---A FACT.


Now antabanta, the Rev has proffered an explanation.

I have suggested that because the people in both Guyana and the United States have become accustomed or acclimatized or acculturated to the 2 major parties they are predisposed to voting for either of those parties in a general election---and those who are disaffected by the major parties---the protest voters---will vote for a 3rd party.

I made the argument that because people are habitually predisposed to voting for one of the 2 major parties, it is highly unlikely that a 3rd party will ever emerge as a major party.


HISTORY PROVES THE REV RIGHT!

In the history of the United States and the history of Guyana no 3rd party has ever become a major political force.

EXPLANATION:

You can't change HUMAN BEHAVIOR in a major way.


You need to be more open minded antabanta---that's the only way you'll follow the Rev's point of view.

Rev
Rev.... I fear you are the victim of accute ego-centrism. In which world is refusing to accept possibilities open-minded? I think, dear Rev, you have things backwards. It is more likely that my willingness to accept the potential for change indicates open-mindedness and your refusal a symptom of the wearing of blinds.
If you are saying things cannot change, for whatever reason, be it the habits of human, the alignment of the stars, cursed by the gods, whatever reason, you are saying as it is so shall it be. It seems you have difficulty understanding your own words.
A
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
You clearly cannot fathom my response. Obviously you're saying as it is so shall it always be... in both the US and Guyana.


Banta:

I am not saying, "as it is so shall it always be." What I am saying is human behavior very rarely deviates from the norm---humans are creatures of HABITS---good habits and bad habits.

Here is a verifiable truth--a FACT:

In the history of the United States, the country has been led by one of the 2 major parties(Democrats or Republican.)

and

In the history of Guyana, the country has been led by one of the 2 major parties(PPP or PNC).

THE ABOVE IS A VERIFIABLE TRUTH---A FACT.


Now antabanta, the Rev has proffered an explanation.

I have suggested that because the people in both Guyana and the United States have become accustomed or acclimatized or acculturated to the 2 major parties they are predisposed to voting for either of those parties in a general election---and those who are disaffected by the major parties---the protest voters---will vote for a 3rd party.

I made the argument that because people are habitually predisposed to voting for one of the 2 major parties, it is highly unlikely that a 3rd party will ever emerge as a major party.


HISTORY PROVES THE REV RIGHT!

In the history of the United States and the history of Guyana no 3rd party has ever become a major political force.

EXPLANATION:

You can't change HUMAN BEHAVIOR in a major way.


You need to be more open minded antabanta---that's the only way you'll follow the Rev's point of view.

Rev


Rev,

Banta, cannot grasp your realistic approach to political history. Your point of 3rd party also applies to Canada.

3rd parties have always been a protest party and have never made it past their status.

Keep em honest Al.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Rev.... I fear you are the victim of accute ego-centrism. In which world is refusing to accept possibilities open-minded? I think, dear Rev, you have things backwards. It is more likely that my willingness to accept the potential for change indicates open-mindedness and your refusal a symptom of the wearing of blinds.
If you are saying things cannot change, for whatever reason, be it the habits of human, the alignment of the stars, cursed by the gods, whatever reason, you are saying as it is so shall it be. It seems you have difficulty understanding your own words.


banta:

The Rev has read your response carefully, and since you chose to be civil and respectful I will continue to engage you.

Now antabanta, let me begin by praising you---you are absolutely correct---it is clearly not impossible for a 3rd party to emerge in the future as a major player in the politics of either Guyana or the United States.

ONCE AGAIN, IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE---A 3RD PARTY CAN, INDEED, EMERGE AS A MAJOR PARTY.

But check this antabanta:

Because in the 200+ year history of the United States and the nearly 50 year history of Guyana as independent nations a 3rd party has never emerged as a major party, it is highly IMPROBABLE that such an eventuality, a 3rd party emerging as a major party, will occur in the future.

Yes antabanta--you are 100% correct---it is not IMPOSSIBLE that a 3rd party could emerge as a major party---but given the history of elections in America and Guyana and given human behavior---it is highly improbable that a 3rd party will ever emerge as a major party.

BUT KEEP HOPING AND DREAMING ANTABANTA---MIRACLES DO OCCUR---AND YOUR BELOVED AFC MAY CREATE A MIRACLE AND BECOME A MAJOR PARTY---MAYBE 100 YEARS FROM NOW. lol

Rev
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Rev.... I fear you are the victim of accute ego-centrism. In which world is refusing to accept possibilities open-minded? I think, dear Rev, you have things backwards. It is more likely that my willingness to accept the potential for change indicates open-mindedness and your refusal a symptom of the wearing of blinds.
If you are saying things cannot change, for whatever reason, be it the habits of human, the alignment of the stars, cursed by the gods, whatever reason, you are saying as it is so shall it be. It seems you have difficulty understanding your own words.


banta:

The Rev has read your response carefully, and since you chose to be civil and respectful I will continue to engage you.

Now antabanta, let me begin by praising you---you are absolutely correct---it is clearly not impossible for a 3rd party to emerge in the future as a major player in the politics of either Guyana or the United States.

ONCE AGAIN, IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE---A 3RD PARTY CAN, INDEED, EMERGE AS A MAJOR PARTY.

But check this antabanta:

Because in the 200+ year history of the United States and the nearly 50 year history of Guyana as independent nations a 3rd party has never emerged as a major party, it is highly IMPROBABLE that such an eventuality, a 3rd party emerging as a major party, will occur in the future.

Yes antabanta--you are 100% correct---it is not IMPOSSIBLE that a 3rd party could emerge as a major party---but given the history of elections in America and Guyana and given human behavior---it is highly improbable that a 3rd party will ever emerge as a major party.

BUT KEEP HOPING AND DREAMING ANTABANTA---MIRACLES DO OCCUR---AND YOUR BELOVED AFC MAY CREATE A MIRACLE AND BECOME A MAJOR PARTY---MAYBE 100 YEARS FROM NOW. lol

Rev
Thank you for admitting the inaccuracy of your statement and opening your mind, albeit only a little. You seem unaware of major movements in the world over the past 20 to 30 years that defied the status quo and upturned seemingly unchangeable situations. I must urge you to brush up a little starting with perestroika and glasnost, the felling of the Berlin wall followed by the subsequent unified Germany, to the death of Muammar and falling of regimes throughout Arabia, all of which apparently occured overnight. You may not be aware but we may be able to add to that list the pending reunion of Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis, decried by many as absolutely impossible.
Your decree on the improbability of change in Guyana seems more a plaintive hope for stagnation. Unfortunately, I regret to disappoint you that these matters lie not in the hands of any one individual reverend, unless said individual has direct influence on the big man upstairs.
A
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
By the way, please also brush up on your US history, more specifically The Whig Party.


Banta:

Thanks for the heads up!

Well, the Rev is a man of numbers and clearly not a man of history. Smilelol


RE: THE WHIG PARTY

It was founded in 1833 and dissolved in 1856---succeeded by the Republican party.

This is interesting:

"The Whigs suffered greatly from factionalism throughout their existence, as well as weak party loyalty that stood in contrast to the strong party discipline that was the hallmark of a tight Democratic Party organization.[5] One strength of the Whigs, however, was a superb network of newspapers that provided an internal information system; their leading editor was Horace Greeley of the powerful New York Tribune."


OBSERVATION:

1. The whig was clearly not a 3rd party.

2. It folded after 23 years---too much factionalism and weak party loyalty.


Anyway antabanta, this statement remains correct:

Because in the 200+ year history of the United States and the nearly 50 year history of Guyana as independent nations a 3rd party has never emerged as a major party, it is highly IMPROBABLE that such an eventuality, a 3rd party emerging as a major party, will occur in the future.


RE: THE AFC

The AFC is a 3rd party and given the history and the behavior of Guyanese voters---the AFC will in all likelihood remain a 10% party.

Rev
FM
My Dear Rev... you did not read enough. The Whigs had at least two presidents in power. You are correct they were not a third party. At the time they were one of the two parties dominating US politics with the nascent Republican party as the third. The Republican party did not actually replace the Whigs as members of the Whigs dispersed to both Replublican and Democratic parties.
Your statement is incorrect as the Republican 3rd party did emerge as a major party.
While history is a great guide to the future it does not dictate it. You seem stuck in the idea that what has always been will always be.
A
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Your statement is incorrect as the Republican 3rd party did emerge as a major party.


banta:

It is true that the Republican party succeeded the Whig party after it was dissolved in 1856.

But the Republican party never contested an election in America as a 3rd party---Never!


RE: THE PNC AND APNU

The case can be made that the PNC has been replaced by APNU---so APNU becomes the major party along with the PPP---the 2 major parties are no longer PPP and PNC but PPP and APNU.

In the meantime, AFC remains the 3rd party---the party that will attract the disaffected---protest votes.


RE: A COALITION BETWEEN APNU & AFC

Now if there were to be a coalition between APNU and AFC in the next election---and the 2 parties contest the election as AFC---then AFC would emerge as a major party.

But in today's Guyana the AFC is a 3rd party---and has less than a 1% chance of ever winning an election in Guyana on its own.

Rev
FM
Dear Rev... The Republican Party was born in 1854, the Whig died after 1856. Although I didn't go far in school even I can conclude the parties co-existed for at least two years. While many Whigs, including Abe Lincoln, moved over to the Republicans, many became democrats and others formed the Constitutional Union Party. At this point it's advisable to put the American history issue to rest.
The issue at hand is your narrow-minded refusal to accept the potential for change, in spite of, I repeat, in spite of, all the changes surrounding us, many of which I already mentioned.
You have arbitrarily decreed the AFC can never be a major party in Gy politics, based on the flimsy argument that it has always been so. Please try to understand, based on all the world-wide geo-political changes the lameness of that rationale.
Now... we've already established the ridiculousness of your claim to be open-minded, we've established the unsound foundation of your argument, we've established your incorrect analogy, we've established your incorrect information. What more is there to discuss?
A
You haven'r seen anything yet. The APNU will try to dominate the AFC and that's where the problem lies.. Moses is a crook like all EX PPP menbers. he will portray himself as a no nonsense person and will try try to take on the PNC by himself. That will be his failure.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
The issue at hand is your narrow-minded refusal to accept the potential for change, in spite of, I repeat, in spite of, all the changes surrounding us, many of which I already mentioned.


Banta:

Your sense of history is, indeed, commendable.

Now, the Rev maintains that the Republican party never contested an election in America as a 3rd party.

Yes! The Republican party was a new party---you are right---it coexisted with Whig for 2 years--and it went on to become one of the 2 major parties in the US after Whig folded.


CAN THE AFC EVENTUALLY BECOME ONE OF THE 2 MAJOR PARTIES IN GUYANA ?

That is possible! But only if one of the 2 major parties in Guyana today(PPP or APNU) decides to pull a Whig and dissolve.

Once again, in countries like Guyana and the US---with 2 major parties---a 3rd party will always attract the protest votes---but a 3rd party will not win a general election.

As long as the AFC is the 3rd party in Guyana---it will most likely be the 10% party.

Rev
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
The issue at hand is your narrow-minded refusal to accept the potential for change, in spite of, I repeat, in spite of, all the changes surrounding us, many of which I already mentioned.


Banta:

Your sense of history is, indeed, commendable.

Now, the Rev maintains that the Republican party never contested an election in America as a 3rd party.

Yes! The Republican party was a new party---you are right---it coexisted with Whig for 2 years--and it went on to become one of the 2 major parties in the US after Whig folded.


CAN THE AFC EVENTUALLY BECOME ONE OF THE 2 MAJOR PARTIES IN GUYANA ?

That is possible! But only if one of the 2 major parties in Guyana today(PPP or APNU) decides to pull a Whig and dissolve.

Once again, in countries like Guyana and the US---with 2 major parties---a 3rd party will always attract the protest votes---but a 3rd party will not win a general election.

As long as the AFC is the 3rd party in Guyana---it will most likely be the 10% party.

Rev
I did not want to get into this thing because Anta is doing a good job. My primary concern is you are comparing a federal system with direct constituencies and a healthy primary battle to select a presidential candidate to a Westminster system with a racially bifurcated population and where party bosses hand pick the president. Here merit and good government is not the means to end schema but capturing the state as a means of ethnic pride and personal enrichment of kith and kin is the desired outcome

A third party at the national level has a harder time in the US than in parliamentary systems. Were the federalist system bifurcated by cultural ethnic populations as in Scandinavian countries we can get as many as theirs where they have stable democracy with as many as 13 parties in long term coalition governments.

Our third or group is our blended population who together with Amerinds can similarly to Scandinavian nations, facilitate the rise of a third and a fourth party with each holding significant power despite their size because they will have legislative veto. This has been the recent dynamics given population shifts. We are in for a new day.

The PPP and the APNU may have to live with that emerging reality and our administrative will have to radically transform itself of be shut down legislatively
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
But only if one of the 2 major parties in Guyana today(PPP or APNU) decides to pull a Whig and dissolve.
...
Once again, in countries like Guyana and the US---with 2 major parties---a 3rd party will always attract the protest votes---but a 3rd party will not win a general election.

As long as the AFC is the 3rd party in Guyana---it will most likely be the 10% party.

Rev
Dear Rev... I chose the above excerpts from your post for clarity. For your three statements above my question is very simple... why, because it has always been so?
A
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Dear Rev... I chose the above excerpts from your post for clarity. For your three statements above my question is very simple... why, because it has always been so?


Banta:

I believe you would like me to say that the reason a 3rd party will not win a general election in Guyana, for example, is because it has always been so---a 3rd party has never won.

That would be too simplistic an explanation.

Pay attention antabanta---I'll try to enlighten you one last time.


REASON WHY A 3Rd PARTY WILL ONLY ATTRACT 5-12% OF THE VOTES IN A GENERAL ELECTION IN GUYANA


Let's start with human behavior:

Human beings are creatures of habit--and habits are very difficult to change.

The Guyanese people have gotten used to the 2 major parties--the PPP and PNC(now re-branded apnu)---and because the people have become accustomed or acculturated to these 2 parties---a 3rd party will never win a general election in Guyana.


OLD HABITS ARE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK.

It will forever be the PPP and PNC(apnu)---and parties like the AFC---3rd parties will always attract the protest voters in contested elections.


CAN THE AFC BECOME ONE OF THE 2 MAJOT PARTIES In GUYANA ?

Yes! If APNU dissolves or apnu merges with afc and AFC is the new party---then afc will become a major party.

But AFC contesting any election in Guyana as a 3rd party will not win any election.


QUESTION FOR ANTABANTA

Why dont you proffer an explanation as to why 3rd parties in general elections in countries like Guyana have attracted only a small minority(12% of less) of the votes ?

Rev
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Dear Rev... I chose the above excerpts from your post for clarity. For your three statements above my question is very simple... why, because it has always been so?


Banta:

I believe you would like me to say that the reason a 3rd party will not win a general election in Guyana, for example, is because it has always been so---a 3rd party has never won.

That would be too simplistic an explanation.

Pay attention antabanta---I'll try to enlighten you one last time.


REASON WHY A 3Rd PARTY WILL ONLY ATTRACT 5-12% OF THE VOTES IN A GENERAL ELECTION IN GUYANA


Let's start with human behavior:

Human beings are creatures of habit--and habits are very difficult to change.

The Guyanese people have gotten used to the 2 major parties--the PPP and PNC(now re-branded apnu)---and because the people have become accustomed or acculturated to these 2 parties---a 3rd party will never win a general election in Guyana.


OLD HABITS ARE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK.

It will forever be the PPP and PNC(apnu)---and parties like the AFC---3rd parties will always attract the protest voters in contested elections.


CAN THE AFC BECOME ONE OF THE 2 MAJOT PARTIES In GUYANA ?

Yes! If APNU dissolves or apnu merges with afc and AFC is the new party---then afc will become a major party.

But AFC contesting any election in Guyana as a 3rd party will not win any election.


QUESTION FOR ANTABANTA

Why dont you proffer an explanation as to why 3rd parties in general elections in countries like Guyana have attracted only a small minority(12% of less) of the votes ?

Rev
Dear Rev... No... I would not like you to say "the reason a 3rd party will not win a general election in Guyana, for example, is because it has always been so---a 3rd party has never won." And would you like to know why I would not like you to say it Rev? Because you've already said it. I fear you have difficulty understanding your own words. Let's try to break it down. And believe me I am paying attention.
You decree "The Guyanese people have gotten used to the 2 major parties--the PPP and PNC(now re-branded apnu)---and because the people have become accustomed or acculturated to these 2 parties---"
Question - has this always been so?
You also decree "a 3rd party will never win a general election in Guyana."
Question - does this signal change or no change?
Please teach me more Rev.... you have my fullest attention.
Although my erudtion is severely lacking compared to one such as you I shall attempt the explanation you requested. Now.. you understand here again you can teach me more... so here goes.
In my extremely humble opinion and after intense mental agony, I think the reason why 3rd parties in general elections in Guyana have attracted only a small minority(12% of less) of the votes is because voting in Guyana is polarised racially to the two parties composed of the two largest races. There.. whew!.. that took a lot of effort.
Please note two things.. 1. My explanation, poor as it is, is relative to Guyana. 2. There is much scope for change. My explanation above does not decree it shall always be so.
Thank you very much for your patience Rev.
A
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
In my extremely humble opinion and after intense mental agony, I think the reason why 3rd parties in general elections in Guyana have attracted only a small minority(12% of less) of the votes is because voting in Guyana is polarised racially to the two parties composed of the two largest races. There.. whew!.. that took a lot of effort.


Banta:

Keep up the good work. The Rev is proud of you. We're making progress.

Both of us now agree that the Guyana political system is essentially a 2 party system.

And both of us have offered our views as to why 3rd parties in Guyana have attracted only a small percentage of the votes in general elections.

Now Banta, if I am reading you correctly, I believe you want to know if the 2 party political dominance in Guyana will remain the same going forward---there will be no change---or if there is a chance of another party---like the AFC, for example---dominating in Guyana's politics ?

The Rev's answer is simple--and I will incorporate your views about racial polarization into my answer:

As long as East Indians are prejudiced in favor of the PPP---that prejudice has become habitual--- and as long as blacks are prejudiced in favor of the PNC(apnu)---that prejudice has also become habitual---and remember, habits are difficult to change---the probability of a 3rd party like the AFC every dominating Guyana's politics and winning a general election is miniscule---close to zero.

Rev
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Al:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
In my extremely humble opinion and after intense mental agony, I think the reason why 3rd parties in general elections in Guyana have attracted only a small minority(12% of less) of the votes is because voting in Guyana is polarised racially to the two parties composed of the two largest races. There.. whew!.. that took a lot of effort.


Banta:

Keep up the good work. The Rev is proud of you. We're making progress.

Both of us now agree that the Guyana political system is essentially a 2 party system.

And both of us have offered our views as to why 3rd parties in Guyana have attracted only a small percentage of the votes in general elections.

Now Banta, if I am reading you correctly, I believe you want to know if the 2 party political dominance in Guyana will remain the same going forward---there will be no change---or if there is a chance of another party---like the AFC, for example---dominating in Guyana's politics ?

The Rev's answer is simple--and I will incorporate your views about racial polarization into my answer:

As long as East Indians are prejudiced in favor of the PPP---that prejudice has become habitual--- and as long as blacks are prejudiced in favor of the PNC(apnu)---that prejudice has also become habitual---and remember, habits are difficult to change---the probability of a 3rd party like the AFC every dominating Guyana's politics and winning a general election is miniscule---close to zero.

Rev
Thank you for the commendations Rev. Unfortunately I cannot reciprocate. You are as grossly mistaken about what I want to know as you are about US history and your poor analogies. What I want to know is why are you assuming politics in Guyana shall perpetually remain as is, especially, I repeat, especially, in view of all the political upheavals world wide? Are you saying it shall always be as it is because of prejudice? Please word your response in simple terms as, as you've already ascertained, I'm not well-educated.
A
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
What I want to know is why are you assuming politics in Guyana shall perpetually remain as is, especially, I repeat, especially, in view of all the political upheavals world wide? Are you saying it shall always be as it is because of prejudice? Please word your response in simple terms as, as you've already ascertained, I'm not well-educated.


banta:

What you dont want to accept is the fact that as long as Guyana's politics is dominated by the 2 major parties a 3rd party like the AFC will stand close to zero chance of ever winning an election in Guyana.


The best performance by a 3rd party in a Guyana election was in 1964---The United Force received 12% of the votes; the PPP received 46% and the PNC 42%.

In the last 2 elections, the AFC received 8% of the votes in 2006 and 10.3% in 2011.


Now Banta you are free to engage in wishful thinking---hoping and wishing and dreaming that a 3rd party will one day emerge as an electoral winner in Guyana.

MAYBE YOUR WISHES AND DREAMS WILL BECOME A REALITY IN 100 YEARS.

But right now the Rev cannot envision a scenario whereby a 3rd party wins an election and forms the government in Guyana.

Rev
FM

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