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We must begin to celebrate our ethnic groups and their cultures.

July 11, 2017  Source

Dear Editor,

I will repeat what Prime Minister Nagamootoo stated in the last election campaign, for which he was roundly condemned by the previous government. He stated that he is not “Indian”. I responded to his statement with a letter to the press, full supporting the Prime Minister’s statement. None of us who were born in Guyana are ‘Indians’ or ‘Africans’. To be Indian or African is not an ethnic group. We are Guyanese of different ethnic groups. People of every ethnic group on earth were born in Africa today. Does this means that they are all ‘Blacks’? No, but they are qualified to be called African because they were born on that continent. Similarly, in India people of different ethnic groups were born there today, and that qualifies them to be called Indian. So the nationality of someone born in India or in Africa makes those people Indian and African respectively. But in Africa, their nationality is not African, but Nigerian, Libyan, Ghanaian, and so on. In Guyana, we are neither Indian nor African. We are Guyanese by nationality.

In Africa, the Blacks can be from the ethnic group of Yoruba, Ibo, Zulu and so on. In Guyana, some of our ancestry came from these ethnic groups. So a Guyanese whose ancestry came from the great continent of Africa is either a Yoruba, an Ibo or any of the many ethnic groups on that continent. You are not African. Your roots came from Africa, but you are not African, you are Guyanese of African descent belonging to the ethnic group of Yoruba, Ibo or some other ethnic group. Similarly, our ancestors who came from India also have different ethnic groups.

The people in Guyana need to wake up from their slumber. The country is blessed with the greatest ethnic and cultural groups in the world, and what are we doing? Instead of celebrating our great cultures with pride and joy, we seem bent on destroying each other.

My recommendation is that we carry out a detailed survey in two predominantly African villages, two predominantly Indian villages, two communities of both ethnic groups, and two Amerindian villages. Let us find out what these communities need to make our country move forward. Our researchers must compile the findings of these surveys and then propose new measures to launch a ‘New’ Guyana. We can use the information from the survey to begin the process of building our people rather than tearing them apart. The funds for this project should come from the business community, the government and other interested parties. We can then use some of our students from the University of Guyana to work with our researchers to get this done.

Let us put our hands to the plough and build a New Guyana for our children and grandchildren, and let us begin to celebrate our different ethnic groups and our rich cultures with pomp and glory.

Yours faithfully,

Charles Sugrim    

Replies sorted oldest to newest

warrior posted:
Nehru posted:

Does he know Guyana gat Crabdaag Namakaram??????

do not forget you is a jackass 

HAHAHA FILTH HEAD IDIOT, like he finally figure out how to pull his head out of his ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nehru

Indians in Guyana are Guyanese by nationality and Indian as one of the six racial groups of people. We are Indians because we are descendants of India where our ancestors belong. Charles Sugram came out with this nonsense that Guyanese understood fully. Moses made a blunder which he knew was wrong when he defended himself very poorly to the Guyanese folks. Moses was busy praising the PNC that he forget about his ancestors in Indian where he received his doctorate degree from his Tamils family. 

FM

This is why some Guyanese of Indian ancestry will always have a difficult time. Every other nationality can say "I am Guyanese" but not them, that is because they are a confused lot.

There used to be a saying about The Bronx being the most confusing place on Father's day but you guys got them beat. East Indians who fail to recognize they are first and foremost, Guyanese, will always be confused people. Try explaining to someone from India you are Indian.

Yesterday I visited a buddy who is receiving cancer treatment and met a young nurse with a brown complexion. She had to stay in the room at all times so she was included in our conversations. I asked her if she happened to be from Guyana or West Indies to which she answered.."No I am Canadian, born in Scarborough with parents from Africa and India."

You guys here would all be confused as heck if you were in that position..you'll all be saying some bullshit like you are Afrindia.

cain
Last edited by cain

No I did not, why would I? My nose is long enough. I even saw that she had a book beside her and told her of the one I just completed by Trevor Noah ( he is from South Africa) who she never heard of until she checked on the net. Did I forget to say she was quite pretty?

cain
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

His premise is that Indo Guyanese are not Indians.  They weren't born in India, and face it, culturally they are different. 

Afro Guyanese have less of an issue with this, as most don't even see Africa is relevant except in a historical sense.

 

NYC has a huge population from India and I see little evidence that these people feel that Indo Guyanese have anything to do with them except for a shared love of cricket, a British  game.

FM

People of Indan Origins, that is the ones whose forefathers went to Africa and the Carribbean are the only Indians who refer to themselves as Indians, meaning their forefathers are Indians, so they associate with them. In reality, the first set of pioneers are really from India. However, we who consider ourselves as Indians embraces all of India and its customs while those present day people that hails from the sub-continent seldom refer to themselves as Indians, many simply states the REGION they came from, example, the punjab, south indian, Malalyam, tamil, Dravidians.

I say, I am an Indian.

A Guyanese is a person void of racist tendencies. And there is not such a person, as yet. But, they slowly evolving, realizing Guyana has several races of people and a truly Guyanese government is one that governs for Guyanese.

So for now, we all have racism, whether we agree or disgree. Because in the Amerindians land of Guyana, everything is a race issue.

S
caribny posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

His premise is that Indo Guyanese are not Indians.  They weren't born in India, and face it, culturally they are different. 

Afro Guyanese have less of an issue with this, as most don't even see Africa is relevant except in a historical sense.

 

NYC has a huge population from India and I see little evidence that these people feel that Indo Guyanese have anything to do with them except for a shared love of cricket, a British  game.

Caribjee bai, tell dem NYC Indians that their children and grandchildren who were not born in India would be the same like the Guyanese. 

Meraa juuta hai Japaanii, yeh patluun Englishtaanii
My shoes are Japanese, these pants are British
Sar pe laal topii Ruusi, phir bhi dil hai Hindustanii
On my head is a red Russian hat, nonetheless my heart is Indian

Mitwah
Mitwah posted:
caribny posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

His premise is that Indo Guyanese are not Indians.  They weren't born in India, and face it, culturally they are different. 

Afro Guyanese have less of an issue with this, as most don't even see Africa is relevant except in a historical sense.

 

NYC has a huge population from India and I see little evidence that these people feel that Indo Guyanese have anything to do with them except for a shared love of cricket, a British  game.

Caribjee bai, tell dem NYC Indians that their children and grandchildren who were not born in India would be the same like the Guyanese. 

Meraa juuta hai Japaanii, yeh patluun Englishtaanii
My shoes are Japanese, these pants are British
Sar pe laal topii Ruusi, phir bhi dil hai Hindustanii
On my head is a red Russian hat, nonetheless my heart is Indian

Carib wants to Africanize the world. He wants no other race than black people. This would be the end of the human race.

FM
Last edited by Former Member

Caribj the RACIST is full of shit!! He and his Dadee Bunham only interested in Africa, Nelson Mandela and Black Power!!!

 

When Guyanese were starving Bunham gave 50000US to the ANC!! These RACIST PIGS come here and try to rewrite history thinking everyone is a FILTH HEAD like them.. Caribj excuse is RACISM, how about the IDIOT Django, FILTH HEAD is not enough unless his entire head is jampack with raw sewage!!!!!!

Nehru
Nehru posted:

Caribj the RACIST is full of shit!! He and his Dadee Bunham only interested in Africa, Nelson Mandela and Black Power!!!

 

When Guyanese were starving Bunham gave 50000US to the ANC!! These RACIST PIGS come here and try to rewrite history thinking everyone is a FILTH HEAD like them.. Caribj excuse is RACISM, how about the IDIOT Django, FILTH HEAD is not enough unless his entire head is jampack with raw sewage!!!!!!

Make an appointment,maybe you will get some help,"the matter in your cranium need checking"too much poop in there.

Django
Django posted:
Nehru posted:

Caribj the RACIST is full of shit!! He and his Dadee Bunham only interested in Africa, Nelson Mandela and Black Power!!!

 

When Guyanese were starving Bunham gave 50000US to the ANC!! These RACIST PIGS come here and try to rewrite history thinking everyone is a FILTH HEAD like them.. Caribj excuse is RACISM, how about the IDIOT Django, FILTH HEAD is not enough unless his entire head is jampack with raw sewage!!!!!!

Make an appointment,maybe you will get some help,"the matter in your cranium need checking"too much poop in there.

There must be a good veterinary clinic close to him.

cain
cain posted:
Django posted:
Nehru posted:

Caribj the RACIST is full of shit!! He and his Dadee Bunham only interested in Africa, Nelson Mandela and Black Power!!!

 

When Guyanese were starving Bunham gave 50000US to the ANC!! These RACIST PIGS come here and try to rewrite history thinking everyone is a FILTH HEAD like them.. Caribj excuse is RACISM, how about the IDIOT Django, FILTH HEAD is not enough unless his entire head is jampack with raw sewage!!!!!!

Make an appointment,maybe you will get some help,"the matter in your cranium need checking"too much poop in there.

There must be a good veterinary clinic close to him.

You are the CERTIFIED GADAHA, dat would be the appropriate place for you. Not that any help can change you from being a dumb Donkey!!!!!

Nehru
Mitwah posted:
 

Caribjee bai, tell dem NYC Indians that their children and grandchildren who were not born in India would be the same like the Guyanese. 

Meraa juuta hai Japaanii, yeh patluun Englishtaanii
My shoes are Japanese, these pants are British
Sar pe laal topii Ruusi, phir bhi dil hai Hindustanii
On my head is a red Russian hat, nonetheless my heart is Indian

They already call them ABCDs American Born Confused Desis because they don't want to marry some one of their parents' choosing. 

By the time those born in India die off its story done.  Indo Guyanese have long past that point.  How many people born in India are still alive? In fact its a declining % of Indo Guyanese who even know family members who were.

FM
skeldon_man posted:
 

Carib wants to Africanize the world. He wants no other race than black people. This would be the end of the human race.

This is interesting. Caribj scoffs at the notion that Afro Guyanese are "African" and this is how you respond.

Don't worry Indians don't consider you an Indian.  In fact they argue that you all are already heavily  "Afro Caribbeanized" and this has nothing to do with Caribj.  Its interesting that when you all hear a drum beat you start dancing Afro Caribbean.

FM

Charles Sugrim is a moron.  Why was the PM celebrating Indian Arrival Day and Tamil Day?  Why Eric Phillips distinguishes between Amerindian and Africans and Africans and Indians?  Why Carib keeps talking about our ambassadors are mostly Indian?  These people are offering their ill-informed and uneducated opinions of issues they have no business dealing with. Sugrim is pandering and it's only boosting more ignorance.

Billy Ram Balgobin
antabanta posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

Because divisiveness is better than unity? For us less intelligent people, can you explain the lack of logic?

Bai, Granger mek Indians become more Indian. Divisiveness has always been a black ppl thing. Very noticeable after independence. Granger promised a change. And wah he do?

S
seignet posted:
 

I say, I am an Indian.

Siege,

I do the same and proudly add I was born in Guyana and my Great Grand Parents were indentured laborers from India.

Recently on my vacation in FR at CDG,and Indian guy asked if i am from Mauritius,i replied i was born in Guyana and the two country share a common history of Indian Indenture-ship,he agreed.His little daughter was listening to our conversation and chimed in you should visit Mauritius,i replied some day i will.

Django
Last edited by Django
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
 

Caribjee bai, tell dem NYC Indians that their children and grandchildren who were not born in India would be the same like the Guyanese. 

Meraa juuta hai Japaanii, yeh patluun Englishtaanii
My shoes are Japanese, these pants are British
Sar pe laal topii Ruusi, phir bhi dil hai Hindustanii
On my head is a red Russian hat, nonetheless my heart is Indian

They already call them ABCDs American Born Confused Desis because they don't want to marry some one of their parents' choosing. 

By the time those born in India die off its story done.  Indo Guyanese have long past that point.  How many people born in India are still alive? In fact its a declining % of Indo Guyanese who even know family members who were.

It does matter what you say. Mere dil mein Hindustani mai hu.  I am Indian in my heart. No one can take that away from me. 

The story is not done when those born in India die. We perform pujas sometimes going back to 3 to 4 generations for our ancestors. 

Your pandering is exposing your ignorance of the Indian Psyche. Charles Sugrim is being silly.

Mitwah

When those of you who are naturalized citizens of the US or Canada or England travel outside of your adopted country of residence, do you identify yourselves as Indian or proudly as American, Canadian, and British? Be honest now.

A
Last edited by antabanta
seignet posted:
antabanta posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

Because divisiveness is better than unity? For us less intelligent people, can you explain the lack of logic?

Bai, Granger mek Indians become more Indian. Divisiveness has always been a black ppl thing. Very noticeable after independence. Granger promised a change. And wah he do?

Are you saying that divisiveness in Guyana started with and was created by black people? The same black people who are accused of trying to integrate the races?

A
caribny posted:
skeldon_man posted:
 

Carib wants to Africanize the world. He wants no other race than black people. This would be the end of the human race.

This is interesting. Caribj scoffs at the notion that Afro Guyanese are "African" and this is how you respond.

Don't worry Indians don't consider you an Indian.  In fact they argue that you all are already heavily  "Afro Caribbeanized" and this has nothing to do with Caribj.  Its interesting that when you all hear a drum beat you start dancing Afro Caribbean.

You don't know me. I do not listen to their shit.

I don't give a rat's ass what any Indian thinks of me. I am not "Afro Caribbeanized". I do not attend any Caribbean events here nor do I listen to their music. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

FM
Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

.  Why Carib keeps talking about our ambassadors are mostly Indian? .

We are not denying the role of ethnicity. What we are saying is that you are NOT an Indian.  You are an Indo GUYANESE.  You shouldn't be  centered in India. You are centered in GUYANA. 

60% of the Guyanese population do not identify themselves as being of Indian descent, which means that those who do need to figure out an identity which links them to the rest of the population.

Most Indo Guyanese have a fictional identity of themselves begin connected to India, and lambaste Afro Guyanese who lack a similar interest in "Africa". 

Afro Guyanese are GUYANESE whose ancestry is mainly from the African continent.

People like yourself view yourself to be an Indian who just happened to be born in Guyana.   This is why you lambasted Moses when he said that he was a GUYANESE.   You just cannot understand why he would offer this as his core identity and his ethnicity as an Indo Guyanese being secondary to this.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

Great so if you don't have any thing to do with Guyana or the rest of the Caribbean then you can ATTEMPT to return to India. Don't cry when they call you an "Africanized Indian" though, as they tend to see Indo Caribbean people in that light.

FM
Mitwah posted:
.

Your pandering is exposing your ignorance of the Indian Psyche. Charles Sugrim is being silly.

Which apparently is to live in isolation from other ethnic groups in Guyana, refuse to develop some bonding with them, and then wail when others consider Indians to be not patriotic Guyanese and who exhibit clannish attitudes.

FM
seignet posted:
antabanta posted:
Zed posted:

Sugrim is out to lunch. There is no logic in his argument. 

Because divisiveness is better than unity? For us less intelligent people, can you explain the lack of logic?

Bai, Granger mek Indians become more Indian. Divisiveness has always been a black ppl thing. Very noticeable after independence. Granger promised a change. And wah he do?

In fact Jagdeo made Afro Guyanese more fearful of Indian rule and more determined to ensure that Guyana be rid of it.

And why shouldn't they be if Indians run around disdaining other Indians for identifying themselves as Guyanese.  Apparently one cannot be Guyanese and Indo Guyanese, but then this follows logic given that people consider them to be Indians, who just happen to be born in Guyana, but who have no interest in the remaining 60% of the population. 

When Moses attempted an identity which acknowledged his Indian ancestry, but also embraced being Guyanese and cognizant that Guyana is multi ethnic, multi cultural and multi religious you all Ravi Dev types had a mental break down.

You are welcome to live in isolation as an Indian who happens to be born in Guyana, but who isn't rooted in being Guyanese.  In another 15 years there will be more Guyanese of mixed ancestry than there will be of Indian ancestry.

What will you do then, because as it is in the under 5 age cohort there are now more mixed people than there are Indians?

 

FM

Indo Guyanese refer to themselves as Indians in terms of race and certain cultural aspects. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. You go to an IndoG home and the traditions and norms will be different from that of an AfroG and visa versa.  CaribJ and others will not understand this as they believe that Guyana belongs to Afros and IndoG are rats to be exterminated. 

FM
Drugb posted:

Indo Guyanese refer to themselves as Indians in terms of race and certain cultural aspects. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. You go to an IndoG home and the traditions and norms will be different from that of an AfroG and visa versa.  CaribJ and others will not understand this as they believe that Guyana belongs to Afros and IndoG are rats to be exterminated. 

Where the frig do you people come up with such bullshit...I'll answer that..yur arsehole.

cain
Drugb posted:

.. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. .. 

To be Guyanese is to acknowledge that it is multi cultural, multi ethnic, and multi religious.  It is to acknowledge that there has been much cultural exchange between the various groups.

There are Indians here who seem to think that this is a bad thing and that they should live in isolation from other ethnic groups and pretend as if their culture has remained unchanged since arrival from India.

Druggie can engage in his hysterical reaction, which implies that to acknowledge the diversity of Guyana, and to acknowledge the degree to which Guyanese of all ethnicities participate in it means that there is a plot for genocide involving Indians.

Druggie if the presence of other cultures is offensive to you then journey back to your ancestral village in Uttar Pradesh, but understand that they will treat you no better than they treat African students.

To be Guyanese in fact defies the notion of being monolithic, but you want to be a monolith which means that you cannot live in a diverse society, as monolithic behavior cannot survive amidst diversity.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
cain posted:
Drugb posted:

Indo Guyanese refer to themselves as Indians in terms of race and certain cultural aspects. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. You go to an IndoG home and the traditions and norms will be different from that of an AfroG and visa versa.  CaribJ and others will not understand this as they believe that Guyana belongs to Afros and IndoG are rats to be exterminated. 

Where the frig do you people come up with such bullshit...I'll answer that..yur arsehole.

You are one of the ones that pray for our extinction. You even side up with the Afros, who the rest of people from Portugal hate, just to seek our demise. 

FM
Skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

 

You guys give me shit when I call you that C word and now baddam here u go.. You rass lucky your forefathers did migrate, imagine squatting on a roadside to do your business then wipe yo batty with a tambrun leaf. Hehe

 

cain
caribny posted:

To be Guyanese is to acknowledge that it is multi cultural, multi ethnic, and multi religious.  It is to acknowledge that there has been much cultural exchange between the various groups.

There are Indians here who seem to think that this is a bad thing and that they should live in isolation from other ethnic groups and pretend as if their culture has remained unchanged since arrival from India.

Druggie can engage in his hysterical reaction, which implies that to acknowledge the diversity of Guyana, and to acknowledge the degree to which Guyanese of all ethnicities participate in it means that there is a plot for genocide involving Indians.

Druggie if the presence of other cultures is offensive to you then journey back to your ancestral village in Uttar Pradesh, but understand that they will treat you no better than they treat African students.

To be Guyanese in fact defies the notion of being monolithic, but you want to be a monolith which means that you cannot live in a diverse society, as monolithic behavior cannot survive amidst diversity.

You are the one calling us clannish etc. My family being from GT have assimilated some Afro culture and in fact have many of them in our employ. I never stated that I despise Blacks and their culture. You are the one who has consistently stated this about Indians over the past decade. 

FM
Drugb posted:
.. 

Druggie as of 2012 there were more mixed kids in Guyana than Indo Guyanese kids.  So when 2030 when mixed people outnumber Indians what will you do then? 

With Indians then being around 30-35% of the population do you think that existing in an isolated ethnic cave will allow them to survive. Clearly at that point racial voting would have ceased to exist.

FM
Drugb posted:
cain posted:
Drugb posted:

Indo Guyanese refer to themselves as Indians in terms of race and certain cultural aspects. There is no homogeneous traditions that can be described as uniquely Guyanese. You go to an IndoG home and the traditions and norms will be different from that of an AfroG and visa versa.  CaribJ and others will not understand this as they believe that Guyana belongs to Afros and IndoG are rats to be exterminated. 

Where the frig do you people come up with such bullshit...I'll answer that..yur arsehole.

You are one of the ones that pray for our extinction. You even side up with the Afros, who the rest of people from Portugal hate, just to seek our demise. 

Again, you went right up there, even touching the top of your descending colon just to retrieve that shit. You're better than any magician banna.

cain
Drugb posted:
..

You are the one calling us clannish etc. My family being from GT have assimilated some Afro culture and in fact have many of them in our employ. I never stated that I despise Blacks and their culture. You are the one who has consistently stated this about Indians over the past decade. 

1. You despise blacks. To you we are lazy, criminal, unproductive, stupid and unable to achieve anything without the guidance of Indians.  You revel in all the stereotypes of blacks that white racists peddle. 

I even wonder whether you have sufficient respect for blacks to have them in a managerial capacity. Are they all low paid laborers?

2. You make my point about what living in a culturally diverse society. If your family has embraced aspects of Afro Guyanese culture (which is NOT African culture) you are no longer Indian, as there is no where in India where the person who operates within that cultural context can operate.

Now those who refuse to understand this are in fact clannish, and from the responses that I am seeing here a good % of Indians indeed are. The ones who aren't are accused by people like you of advocating the elimination of Indians.

FM
cain posted:
Skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

 

You guys give me shit when I call you that C word and now baddam here u go.. You rass lucky your forefathers did migrate, imagine squatting on a roadside to do your business then wipe yo batty with a tambrun leaf. Hehe

 

That is correct, you should show some respect to our people. You are not entitled to use the C word. Why don't you change your accent and blend in with the Canadians and pretend to be from Portugal? Instead you all up in IndoG business as though we owe our birthright to you. 

FM
cain posted:
.
 

Again, you went right up there, even touching the top of your descending colon just to retrieve that shit. You're better than any magician banna.

Druggie in his stupidity reveals that his family operates within a multi cultural context, which is the point of Charles Sugrim.  Then screams that this is wishing the elimination of Indians.

The Indo KKK are truly manic in their stupidity.

FM
caribny posted:
Drugb posted:
.. 

Druggie as of 2012 there were more mixed kids in Guyana than Indo Guyanese kids.  So when 2030 when mixed people outnumber Indians what will you do then? 

With Indians then being around 30-35% of the population do you think that existing in an isolated ethnic cave will allow them to survive. Clearly at that point racial voting would have ceased to exist.

What does mixed kids have to do with some of us wanting to hold on to our Indian identity from our foreparents?  The people of Guyana will choose who they want to punish under regardless of what you or I think. 

FM
Drugb posted:
. Why don't you change your accent and blend in with the Canadians and pretend to be from Portugal? Instead you all up in IndoG business as though we owe our birthright to you. 

Because he is a GUYANESE whose ancestors came from Portugal and as a GUYANESE he has a right to be up in GUYANESE business.

Now are you an Indian or are you Guyanese?

FM
Drugb posted:
.
 

What does mixed kids .. 

Based on your comments you are already a "mixed kid" as you claim that your family is already diverse culturally.  They retain aspects of the ancestral cultural while absorbing some of the cultures of the people who they live among.

I suggest that you and the Indo KKK accept this fact, because the folks from India will gladly remind you of these facts. Like when you all hear tassa drum and start wining!

FM
caribny posted:

1. You despise blacks. To you we are lazy, criminal, unproductive, stupid and unable to achieve anything without the guidance of Indians.  You revel in all the stereotypes of blacks that white racists peddle. 

I even wonder whether you have sufficient respect for blacks to have them in a managerial capacity. Are they all low paid laborers?

2. You make my point about what living in a culturally diverse society. If your family has embraced aspects of Afro Guyanese culture (which is NOT African culture) you are no longer Indian, as there is no where in India where the person who operates within that cultural context can operate.

Now those who refuse to understand this are in fact clannish, and from the responses that I am seeing here a good % of Indians indeed are. The ones who aren't are accused by people like you of advocating the elimination of Indians.

Nonsense, I merely post the data that is out there. Don't kill the messenger but rather you should focus your energy on changing this perception.  If you drive around Guyana you will immediately know when you are in a Black village vs an Indian village by the quality of the neighborhood.  The same can said of the US where most Black neighborhood are easily distinguishable from many other the extent on based on decay and blight, both socially and economically.  

FM
Drugb posted:
cain posted:
Skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

 

You guys give me shit when I call you that C word and now baddam here u go.. You rass lucky your forefathers did migrate, imagine squatting on a roadside to do your business then wipe yo batty with a tambrun leaf. Hehe

 

That is correct, you should show some respect to our people. You are not entitled to use the C word. Why don't you change your accent and blend in with the Canadians and pretend to be from Portugal? Instead you all up in IndoG business as though we owe our birthright to you. 

Foolish person...unlike you guys I do not pretend a dam thing. When asked my background I say Guyanese further on in the conversation I explain my foreparents and where they came from just as any other Canadian who would say they have Irish, Scottish etc blood.

cain
caribny posted:
Drugb posted:
.
 

What does mixed kids .. 

Based on your comments you are already a "mixed kid" as you claim that your family is already diverse culturally.  They retain aspects of the ancestral cultural while absorbing some of the cultures of the people who they live among.

I suggest that you and the Indo KKK accept this fact, because the folks from India will gladly remind you of these facts. Like when you all hear tassa drum and start wining!

Apparently you know even less about IndoG than you pretend. We don't look to Indians from India for approval of our Indian culture. It is just there, omnipresent, a cultural identity that your people long lost when they succumbed to the White man's culture. Now you folks struggle with adapting Kwanza and other artificial African identities while Africans from Nigeria and other countries laugh at you. 

FM
Drugb posted:
.
 

Nonsense, I merely post the data that is out there. ..  

The data that is there will tell you that the VAST majority of blacks do NOT engage in criminal behavior, yet you scream that we are unproductive occupy ourselves mainly with criminal behaviors.

The tragedy of the black villages is that the best and the brightest left those places generations ago and so you see what is left.  My background is in Buxton, BV, Victoria and Nabaclis but its been many generations since anyone directly in the family has been living there.  

Afro Guyanese and Indo Guyanese living in the USA have comparable median household incomes. NEITHER are seen as an entrepreneurial group with self employment rates among BOTH being way below the average for immigrant groups. In fact BOTH seem to love working for the MTA and in hospitals. 

Jamaicans in fact are more likely to be self employed than are Guyanese, and the gap is so large that even if we assume that no Afro Guyanese are self employed the self employment rates of Indo Guyanese will not outpace that of Jamaicans. AND in fact Jamaicans are not seen as being entrepreneurial either.

You even lambaste your supposed black relatives by damning them as a bunch of welfare dependents who look at you as their GOD.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Nehru posted:

Remember when Kunta came to America and he was whipped until he said " OK Rass man my name is Joseph"

This is correct, they also whipped Babulall but he refused to change his name. 

FM
caribny posted:
Drugb posted:
.
 

Nonsense, I merely post the data that is out there. ..  

The data that is there will tell you that the VAST majority of blacks do NOT engage in criminal behavior, yet you scream that we are unproductive occupy ourselves mainly with criminal behaviors.

The tragedy of the black villages is that the best and the brightest left generations ago and so you see what is left.  Afro Guyanese and Indo Guyanese living in the USA have comparable median household incomes. BOTH are not seen as an entrepreneurial group with self employment rates among BOTH being way below the average for immigrant groups. In fact BOTH seem to love working for the MTA and in hospitals.

You even lambaste your supposed black relatives by damning them as a bunch of welfare dependents who look at you as their GOD.

I never said that the majority of Blacks engage in criminal behavior. The statistics from the state prisons around the world show that Blacks are incarcerated at a disproportionate rate from their counterparts. These are the facts, don't blame me.

FM
Drugb posted:
.
 

Apparently you know even less about IndoG than you pretend. We don't look to Indians from India for approval of our Indian culture.

Now you just think that you are just like them and then start crying when they reject you all by letting you know how Afro Caribbean they consider you to be.

As for Kwanza. Don't know how many Afro Guyanese celebrate but I do know that most celebrate Xmas and I do know that they do NOT celebrate Xmas the way that the English do.

And in fact most Afro Guyanese are NOT running around trying to be make believe Indians. But I leave you all to dwell in the concept of India that you all get from watching too many Bollywood movies while you chow down your beef roti, despite having the name Persaud.

FM
Drugb posted:
..

I never said that the majority of Blacks engage in criminal behavior. .

Every comment from you about blacks indicates that we are criminals and unproductive people, or that we are welfare recipients.   You never make commentary about blacks who are hard working and productive.

Even when a mention is made of a highly successful Afro Guyanese you sulk and then  wail that they must be some extreme exception as most live on welfare and are losers.

You even lambaste your own supposed black relatives of living off welfare and unable to do anything without your advice.

FM
Drugb posted:
.
 

This is correct, they also whipped Babulall but he refused to change his name. 

Show me proof that the British prevented Indians from practicing their culture.

In fact they DELIBERATELY allowed it to exist to ensure that Indians remained alienated from the black population and also unable to obtain education or access civil service jobs.

And they certainly didn't ban Bollywood movies from Guyana as they became available.  On the other hand masquerade groups and other manifestation of Afro Caribbean culture was harassed by the authorities until after WWII.

This was all part of ensuring that most Indians remained trapped on the sugar estates to be used as cheap labor, and to ensure that they wouldn't join with the blacks to demand better working conditions.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
antabanta posted:

When those of you who are naturalized citizens of the US or Canada or England travel outside of your adopted country of residence, do you identify yourselves as Indian or proudly as American, Canadian, and British? Be honest now.

No answer? Does this claim of Indianness depart outside of Guyana's borders?

A
caribny posted:

Now you just think that you are just like them and then start crying when they reject you all by letting you know how Afro Caribbean they consider you to be.

As for Kwanza. Don't know how many Afro Guyanese celebrate but I do know that most celebrate Xmas and I do know that they do NOT celebrate Xmas the way that the English do.

And in fact most Afro Guyanese are NOT running around trying to be make believe Indians. But I leave you all to dwell in the concept of India that you all get from watching too many Bollywood movies while you chow down your beef roti, despite having the name Persaud.

Far from the truth, there are distinct differences between our culture but yet there is commonality. After 200 years of splitting apart, cultures will invariable evolve and may even assimilate other influences. Any Indog with this knowledge will never be ashamed of their culture nor will they take insults from any ignorant person like yourself trying to form a wedge. 

Your lack of understanding of the IndoG culture leads you to make ignorant statements about our need for acceptance from India Indians. In fact if you knew India then you would know even among its nationals there are thousands of different sub cultures that have very little in common. 

Blacks in Guyana on the other hand have all but abandoned their culture 100's of years ago to adapt that of the massa. Some remnants remain such as que que etc, however this is the exception rather than the rule. 

FM
antabanta posted:
antabanta posted:

When those of you who are naturalized citizens of the US or Canada or England travel outside of your adopted country of residence, do you identify yourselves as Indian or proudly as American, Canadian, and British? Be honest now.

No answer? Does this claim of Indianness depart outside of Guyana's borders?

One has to identify one self from the Country of origin/Passport. It has nothing to do with race, Grow a bloody brain so you can stop asking STUPID questions!!

Nehru
Drugb posted:
.. 

Blacks in Guyana on the other hand have all but abandoned their culture 100's of years ago to adapt that of the massa. Some remnants remain such as que que etc, however this is the exception rather than the rule. 

And here we go.  This man who thinks that he has an Indian passport so he can show contempt for Guyanese culture.  When last I checked there was definitely a distinct Caribbean  flavor, with a Guyanese flavor being a part of this. 

Continue to be clannish and display contempt for this, but understand that you also have some level of Caribbean flavor about you so if you think that its "massa's" culture I just feel sorry for you.

Do you know that Christianity reached India before it reached the British Isles?  Yes I know you think its "massa" but people in India and Africa had exposure to Christianity before most of Europe did.

FM

Here is the difference. We know that we aren't "African" and are proud to be a Caribbean people. SOME Indians think that they are "Indian" and make themselves look like jackasses on front of REAL Indians as they attempt to perpetrate this myth. In reality they are a Caribbean people, just a different version of being Caribbean than are the blacks who they lambaste as lacking a culture.

You know what druggie an African will respect me more than an Indian will respect you, because I am me and know who I am.  You are pretending to be what you are not.  

Druggie there is a book called "The Sly Company of People Who Care" written by Rahul Bhattacharya. Basically he spends most of the book laughing at Indo Guyanese.  In fact I gather that Indian cricketers found Indo Guyanese females to be an easy piece of flesh, so desperate to be with some one direct for India.  Of course these cricketers felt that no decent woman in India would behave like this.

 

FM
cain posted:
Skeldon_man posted:
.. I am a coolie and I am elated that my dalit forefathers emigrated from India to Guyana.

 

You guys give me shit when I call you that C word and now baddam here u go.. You rass lucky your forefathers did migrate, imagine squatting on a roadside to do your business then wipe yo batty with a tambrun leaf. Hehe

 

Maderia and the Azores wasn't doing so hot when dem indentured. now, u tink u pppl were better than dem Indian who venture upon dem oceans.

Imbeciles doan look towards progress. Suh, our forefather whether dalit or not had brains.

They made a tremendous scarifice for us modern day Indians. And we have done well with their efforts. Even though they recieved pittance, they managed to put aside for the generations they never hoped 2 c. That is this generation of East Indians from Guyana. Y U N V us.  

S
caribny posted:

And here we go.  This man who thinks that he has an Indian passport so he can show contempt for Guyanese culture.  When last I checked there was definitely a distinct Caribbean  flavor, with a Guyanese flavor being a part of this. 

Continue to be clannish and display contempt for this, but understand that you also have some level of Caribbean flavor about you so if you think that its "massa's" culture I just feel sorry for you.

Do you know that Christianity reached India before it reached the British Isles?  Yes I know you think its "massa" but people in India and Africa had exposure to Christianity before most of Europe did.

Where did I mention that I have Indian passport? In fact India does give citizenship to persons of Indian origin if they can prove lineage.  You probably can try if you have any Indian in your family. 

There is no such thing as a "Guyanese culture" . There are many subcultures withing the umbrella.  Indeed Christianity and Islam were in Asia and Africa a long time ago. However your people were not Christians when they came to Guyana. They lost their culture when it was beaten out of them by massa. Now you pretend that all the European culture that you adopted is African, what a dingbat your are. 

FM
caribny posted:

Here is the difference. We know that we aren't "African" and are proud to be a Caribbean people. SOME Indians think that they are "Indian" and make themselves look like jackasses on front of REAL Indians as they attempt to perpetrate this myth. In reality they are a Caribbean people, just a different version of being Caribbean than are the blacks who they lambaste as lacking a culture.

You know what druggie an African will respect me more than an Indian will respect you, because I am me and know who I am.  You are pretending to be what you are not.  

Druggie there is a book called "The Sly Company of People Who Care" written by Rahul Bhattacharya. Basically he spends most of the book laughing at Indo Guyanese.  In fact I gather that Indian cricketers found Indo Guyanese females to be an easy piece of flesh, so desperate to be with some one direct for India.  Of course these cricketers felt that no decent woman in India would behave like this.

 

You know nothing about the psych of Indo Guyanese. You are guessing that they believe themselves to be Indians from India. We know our identity and are not ashamed for propagating our culture after 100's of years removed from the motherland. This is pretty much the same for most Indians who migrated throughout the world, keeping their ancestral identity intact via religious practices, cultural practices and food. 

FM
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
.

Your pandering is exposing your ignorance of the Indian Psyche. Charles Sugrim is being silly.

Which apparently is to live in isolation from other ethnic groups in Guyana, refuse to develop some bonding with them, and then wail when others consider Indians to be not patriotic Guyanese and who exhibit clannish attitudes.

It's better to be clannish than to be an idiot like you. I am Indian. 

Mitwah
Last edited by Mitwah
seignet posted:
0..

Imbeciles doan look towards progress. Suh, our forefather whether dalit or not had brains.

.

in fact Portuguese and Chinese have both done better than Indians who are not better off than are blacks. At least according to your Ravi Dev who despises blacks.

Now why did Indians do much worse than did the other indentures.  They certainly didn't undergo the brutalization that the blacks under went.

FM
Mitwah posted:
.
 

It's better to be clannish than to be an idiot like you. I am Indian. 

So you admit that you are clannish. Honesty is good but ask yourself as the Indian population plummets how well they are going to do as their clout declines. 

The PPP will not win elections based on Indian clannishness, and the remainder of the population isn't going to tolerate Indian clannishness either. 

When 70% of the population is black/mixed that isn't going to do Indians well unless Indians work on overcoming the suspicion that these groups have of them because of their reputation for being clannish.  I bet you will learn how to be "Guyanese" at that point, and understand that Indo Guyanese will not do well unless they learn how to work with others and ceases despising their cultures.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Drugb posted:
Nehru posted:

Remember when Kunta came to America and he was whipped until he said " OK Rass man my name is Joseph"

This is correct, they also whipped Babulall but he refused to change his name. 

They shoulda whipped his ass some more then perhaps he woulda ketch sense and pass it down the line...instead look what it got him...stupidy rassoles on GNI.

cain
Last edited by cain
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
.
 

It's better to be clannish than to be an idiot like you. I am Indian. 

So you admit that you are clannish. Honesty is good but ask yourself as the Indian population plummets how well they are going to do as their clout declines. 

The PPP will not win elections based on Indian clannishness, and the remainder of the population isn't going to tolerate Indian clannishness either. 

When 70% of the population is black/mixed that isn't going to do Indians well unless Indians work on overcoming the suspicion that these groups have of them because of their reputation for being clannish.  I bet you will learn how to be "Guyanese" at that point, and understand that Indo Guyanese will not do well unless they learn how to work with others and ceases despising their cultures.

So what if I am clannish?  Oil and water don't mix. Do you ever see a fowl cock screwing a duck?  I work well with others. I doubt you do with your kind of idiotic mentality. Seems like a tribe is missing one of its cannibals. I can mix with you but afraid that you will eat me. You are from the tribe that prefers human flesh over other meat. Mr. Congo man, I am an Indian first, then Guyanese now Canadian. Samajana?

Mitwah

I am learning so much on this thread, about all this stuff posted and about who is posting. 

Some questions. Why deny people the labels they use to define themselves. I am certain those labels are many. So one can be Guyanese Indian. I say that I am Indian and black. Many say that they are Indian meaning that they are East Indian or if East Indian background. Why use this to say that they are denying that they are Guyanese. To further  your own political agenda? Also,  those who say that they are Indians, maybe a closer  affinity to India, maybe ask why? Why that sense of closeness to India. Why is it that many East Indians question their conditions in Guyana?

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

Z
Zed posted:

I am learning so much on this thread, about all this stuff posted and about who is posting. 

Some questions. Why deny people the labels they use to define themselves. I am certain those labels are many. So one can be Guyanese Indian. I say that I am Indian and black. Many say that they are Indian meaning that they are East Indian or if East Indian background. Why use this to say that they are denying that they are Guyanese. To further  your own political agenda? Also,  those who say that they are Indians, maybe a closer  affinity to India, maybe ask why? Why that sense of closeness to India. Why is it that many East Indians question their conditions in Guyana?

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

Maybe or maybe not,my personnel take  one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes and secondly by their nationality,anything wrong with that ??,regarding other genetic make up i see all as humans,there is space for all of us.

"I mentioned i am Indian and proudly stated was born in Guyana,my great grand parents were East Indian Indentured Immigrants."

So  am i not Guyanese of East Indian parentage or vice versa.Personally i have no affinity to India,to each his own.

Django
Last edited by Django
Mitwah posted:
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
.
 

So what if I am clannish?  Oil and water don't mix.

Right and you are an Indian first too!   I wonder where your Indian passport is. Where is it?  Apparently being Guyanese for you is just an accident of being born there but the rest of the population disgusts you.

I wonder though as this population increases relative to Indians how you will survive there if this attitude towards them is so apparent.

Its always good when people cease to disguise their racism and we can see them for who they really are.

FM
Zed posted:

 

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

In a country with a history of dangerous divisiveness, as is the case of Guyana, there is no room for clannishness.   

I see the implication that blacks, who certainly have an open definition of their ethnic identity and culture, and who generally identify as being Guyanese, seeing being Afro Guyanese as being a subset of this, are debased for having "forgotten their culture". 

THIS is why the Creole culture in Guyana is the one that Guyanese as a whole use when they have to engage in inter ethnic communication.  This is also true in Trinidad, Suriname, and even Mauritius with its dominant Indian population. 

You will note that in cultural performances the "African" component consists of folk songs and dances rooted in Guyana, whereas the "Indian" component is usually rooted in India, usually in a language which 99% of the Indo Guyanese population no longer speak.  How often do we hear the Indo Guyanese folks songs that definitely exist?

You ought to thank God that there is at least one group in Guyana which have an openness in their ethnic definition and culture because without that Guyana would have been like Iraq.

I will suggest to you that EVERY Guyanese has "forgotten their culture" if by that you mean the culture of their ancestors.  How many people in Guyana speak Bhojpuri or the myriad of languages and dialects that the Indian indentures brought with them?  How many could comfortably return to the Indian villages that their ancestors left between 100-150 years ago?

I will suggest that the last "Indians" probably died 20 years ago.  By this I mean those who could comfortably move to India, and back to their ancestral villages. 

Are you suggesting that, if indeed Indians put being Indian first, have a weak bonding with Guyana, see no connection to the rest of the population then you think that the remaining 60% will be comfortable of an Indian dominated party rules?

Now think carefully in a nation like Guyana where control of the state plays a huge role in the economy and in the lives of the people.

People are entitled to their own cultures.  They are entitled to blend those cultures as they wish.

What they are NOT entitled to do is to pursue patterns of behavior which excludes others to opportunity, as we saw during the PPP era.

D2 two years ago began a debate on how Indians identify with each other, how they connect to Guyana, and above all how they interact with other ethnic groups and how they view them.

I will suggest to you that Indians are no longer 51% of the population and in the not too distant future, will be a mere 30%.  If the rest of the population views them as a group that feels that they have a right to disrespect and exclude others, then as they lose their political clout what do you think will happen.

This is a question that Indians have to address. D2 tried to get this discussion going and now so is Charles Sugrim. It is interesting that they both face ridicule from Indians.

FM
Drugb posted:
.
 

.

There is no such thing as a "Guyanese culture" . There are many subcultures withing the umbrella.  .

You are a POI, not an NRI and so aren't entitled to an Indian passport.  This was done to protect Indians from being "corrupted" by Afro Indo Caribbean creoles like you.   

And yes you define what being Guyanese is right there. It is multi cultural, multi ethnic, and multi religious. Not only do many cultures exist but many people COMBINE these cultures in interesting ways. Many people exist in a variety of cultural continuums depending on the  context within which they happen to be in at a particular time.

THAT is what being Guyanese is about. Its a pity that the assorted racists, like the one who is now screaming that "oil and water" don't mix and is screaming about "tribal cannibalism", which is what African culture seems to be to him, don't understand this.

Because like it or not when an Indo Caribbean person enters an Indian space they see some one with an Indian body, with aspects of Indian culture, but one who is thoroughly westernized (usually speaks English with no ability to speak any Indian language, aside from a few phrases, songs and religious texts), and one who is imbued with Afro Caribbean creole culture.

 

FM
Django posted:
Zed posted:

I am learning so much on this thread, about all this stuff posted and about who is posting. 

Some questions. Why deny people the labels they use to define themselves. I am certain those labels are many. So one can be Guyanese Indian. I say that I am Indian and black. Many say that they are Indian meaning that they are East Indian or if East Indian background. Why use this to say that they are denying that they are Guyanese. To further  your own political agenda? Also,  those who say that they are Indians, maybe a closer  affinity to India, maybe ask why? Why that sense of closeness to India. Why is it that many East Indians question their conditions in Guyana?

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

Maybe or maybe not,my personnel take  one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes and secondly by their nationality,anything wrong with that ??,regarding other genetic make up i see all as humans,there is space for all of us.

"I mentioned i am Indian and proudly stated was born in Guyana,my great grand parents were East Indian Indentured Immigrants."

So  am i not Guyanese of East Indian parentage or vice versa.Personally i have no affinity to India,to each his own.

I spent yesterday teaching my grandson the difference between fact and opinion and that people are free to have their own opinions.  At least he got it. Some problems now for his parents because he will tell them when it is their opinion.

Now I am worried. You said that one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes. At the end you defined yourself firstly as Guyanese of East Indian parentage. What does being Guyanese have to do with genes?

Z
Drugb posted:
.our culture after 100's of years removed from the motherland. . 

Your culture is now a blended mix of India with various western influences as well as Afro Caribbean creole.   If you don't admit to this then you deny who you are.  Now I know that you are embarrassed by the degree to which living alongside blacks (who according to you are a degraded people) has influenced you but it does.

I am always amused when I see how Indo Caribbean people respond to tassa drumming, and then read people like you boasting about your "intact" culture.  To quote several Indians, this is an exotic mix of India and Africa, all within an Anglo American context.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
caribny posted:
Drugb posted:
.
 

.

There is no such thing as a "Guyanese culture" . There are many subcultures withing the umbrella.  .

You are a POI, not an NRI and so aren't entitled to an Indian passport.  This was done to protect Indians from being "corrupted" by Afro Indo Caribbean creoles like you.   

And yes you define what being Guyanese is right there. It is multi cultural, multi ethnic, and multi religious. Not only do many cultures exist but many people COMBINE these cultures in interesting ways. Many people exist in a variety of cultural continuums depending on the  context within which they happen to be in at a particular time.

THAT is what being Guyanese is about. Its a pity that the assorted racists, like the one who is now screaming that "oil and water" don't mix and is screaming about "tribal cannibalism", which is what African culture seems to be to him, don't understand this.

Because like it or not when an Indo Caribbean person enters an Indian space they see some one with an Indian body, with aspects of Indian culture, but one who is thoroughly westernized (usually speaks English with no ability to speak any Indian language, aside from a few phrases, songs and religious texts), and one who is imbued with Afro Caribbean creole culture.

 

What are the universals of Afro Caribbean creole culture, for this uneducated old man? This seems convoluted to me. So for those of us who have lived many years in Canada, are we now viewed as having Canadian Afro Caribbean creole culture. Maybe, the problem is inherent in your definition of culture or what you see as the cultural attributes of particular cultural groups in Guyana and the Caribbean and how attempts are made in a hegemonic arena to universalized certain attributes.

Also, but at least they have some remnants unlike so many others who have forgotten their cultural background and also, they are not responsible for how they are viewed.

Z
Zed posted:.

What are the universals of Afro Caribbean creole culture, for this uneducated old man? This seems convoluted to me. So for those of us who have lived many years in Canada, are we now viewed as having Canadian Afro Caribbean creole culture. .

I am unaware that any one defined you (if you are Indo Caribbean) as being Afro Caribbean.

I am fully aware that white Canadians are extremely aware of what Afro Caribbean culture is.  They have no problem in identifying their culture (mainly evolving out of the British Isles) and seeing it as distinct from  that which they see from immigrants from the Caribbean.

An Indian looking at an Indo Caribbean person will also be fully aware of the differences that exist between these two groups of Indian derived peoples. In fact they even have separate terminologies for people born in North America of DIRECT Indian parentage (NRI) from those whose connections to India are more distant, and whose cultures have imbued so many other influences that it is now only tangentially Indian. 

That India of Modi has no space for "Hindus" who eat beef roti without even thinking of it.  Or who can be seen frequenting Pizza Hut and not being concerned that pork products aren't segregated from other food items.

How many Indo Guyanese can fluently speak any language of India.  And I mean daily conversations covering a full gamut of topics.

And my understanding of Canadian identity is that it recognizes cultural, religious and ethnic diversity but that does NOT take away from being a Canadian. So some one whose grandparents came from Guyana is a Canadian first and whatever ethnic identity they select second.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Zed posted:
.

Also, but at least they have some remnants unlike so many others who have forgotten their cultural background and also, they are not responsible for how they are viewed.

An African can easily recognize many remnants of African culture within Afro Caribbean culture. He is however impressed that Afro Caribbean people don't take these remnants and then pretend to be "African" the way that so many Indo Guyanese use this and then scream that they are Indian first, and only coincidentally Guyanese.

FM
Zed posted:
Django posted:
Zed posted:

I am learning so much on this thread, about all this stuff posted and about who is posting. 

Some questions. Why deny people the labels they use to define themselves. I am certain those labels are many. So one can be Guyanese Indian. I say that I am Indian and black. Many say that they are Indian meaning that they are East Indian or if East Indian background. Why use this to say that they are denying that they are Guyanese. To further  your own political agenda? Also,  those who say that they are Indians, maybe a closer  affinity to India, maybe ask why? Why that sense of closeness to India. Why is it that many East Indians question their conditions in Guyana?

Furthermore, if we accept the diversity of cultures within Guyana, and one group actively propagates its culture and tradition, understanding that that culture has changed over time, why define it as being clannish.. Is it because a particular group has totally accepted another's culture and have forgotten its own? What is the political agenda?

Maybe or maybe not,my personnel take  one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes and secondly by their nationality,anything wrong with that ??,regarding other genetic make up i see all as humans,there is space for all of us.

"I mentioned i am Indian and proudly stated was born in Guyana,my great grand parents were East Indian Indentured Immigrants."

So  am i not Guyanese of East Indian parentage or vice versa.Personally i have no affinity to India,to each his own.

I spent yesterday teaching my grandson the difference between fact and opinion and that people are free to have their own opinions.  At least he got it. Some problems now for his parents because he will tell them when it is their opinion.

Now I am worried. You said that one defines himself or herself firstly by their genes. At the end you defined yourself firstly as Guyanese of East Indian parentage. What does being Guyanese have to do with genes?

I mentioned define one self firstly genes secondly nationality,sorry if there are any confusion in my view of ones identity,I also mentioned vice versa

My view is people can choose how the define themselves,in multicultural societies sometimes people tends to define themselves by their ethnicity and nationality,in the ole USA we may hear Italian American,Irish American,African American,Asian American,when all is said and done they are Americans.

Django
Nehru posted:

Remember when Kunta came to America and he was whipped until he said " OK Rass man my name is Joseph"

Nehru Bhai, Kunta became Toby after brutal whippings. He even had his legs amputated for running away.

FM
caribny posted:
Zed posted:.

What are the universals of Afro Caribbean creole culture, for this uneducated old man? This seems convoluted to me. So for those of us who have lived many years in Canada, are we now viewed as having Canadian Afro Caribbean creole culture. .

I am unaware that any one defined you (if you are Indo Caribbean) as being Afro Caribbean.

I am fully aware that white Canadians are extremely aware of what Afro Caribbean culture is.  They have no problem in identifying their culture (mainly evolving out of the British Isles) and seeing it as distinct from  that which they see from immigrants from the Caribbean.

An Indian looking at an Indo Caribbean person will also be fully aware of the differences that exist between these two groups of Indian derived peoples. In fact they even have separate terminologies for people born in North America of DIRECT Indian parentage (NRI) from those whose connections to India are more distant, and whose cultures have imbued so many other influences that it is now only tangentially Indian. 

That India of Modi has no space for "Hindus" who eat beef roti without even thinking of it.  Or who can be seen frequenting Pizza Hut and not being concerned that pork products aren't segregated from other food items.

How many Indo Guyanese can fluently speak any language of India.  And I mean daily conversations covering a full gamut of topics.

And my understanding of Canadian identity is that it recognizes cultural, religious and ethnic diversity but that does NOT take away from being a Canadian. So some one whose grandparents came from Guyana is a Canadian first and whatever ethnic identity they select second.

Your long winded answer did not answer the question. 

One if the problems I have is your view that East indians are clannish but you have not defined what you see them doing that you determine to be clannish.

additionally, you attribute to a a whole group what you perceive some part of it to be, if you are correct. Furthermore, you talk about some amalgam of culture in the cultural milieu  that is Guyana as if it is a given and universally accepted within that cultural melieu. Furthermore, you seem to be posing the idea that East Indians in Guyana are being a threat to other communities or cultures in Guyana because they practice key elements of their culture and tradition. You see, to think that it takes away from being part of Guyana or being a Guyanese. 

I am surprised that you get away with your assertions here. Had I the time, I would challenge most of what you have posted on this thread.

got to go.

Z
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
.
 

So what if I am clannish?  Oil and water don't mix.

Right and you are an Indian first too!   I wonder where your Indian passport is. Where is it?  Apparently being Guyanese for you is just an accident of being born there but the rest of the population disgusts you.

I wonder though as this population increases relative to Indians how you will survive there if this attitude towards them is so apparent.

Its always good when people cease to disguise their racism and we can see them for who they really are.

Congoman, I don't answer asinine questions. I don't care what you think of me. I know who I am. I know that you prefer human meat over other meat. You are lucky that you were not eaten at birth.

Mitwah
Django posted:
Zed posted:
.nationality,in the ole USA we may hear Italian American,Irish American,African American,Asian American,when all is said and done they are Americans.

Exactly.  The Irish/Italian Americans love to wave their stars and stripes and black Americans are even less interested in Africa than are black Caribbean people.

FM
Mitwah posted:
.
 

Congoman, .

I know that you think that you insult me.

Now should I remind you that the cousins that you left in India use toilets as places to items while they defecate in the moonlight?  I mean that is part of your culture if you claim to be so "Indian" as in fact there are cultural reasons why so many Indians engage in this.

FM
Zed posted:
.. .

One if the problems I have is your view that East indians are clannish but you have not defined what you see them doing that you determine to be clannish.

.

got to go.

It is not my view that Indians are clannish. In fact its the root of the Afro Guyanese ethnic dilemma that "dem Indians racial".

By this they mean that an Indian will put another Indian first and foremost and ignore all else.  This meaning that in any Indian controlled environment non Indians will be marginalized.

I invite you to concoct your own reasons why the vast majority of blacks, and a large number of mixed people in Guyana do not trust Indians.  

It is always interesting that people try to evade discussion on topics by engaging in personal attacks. Sugrim raises this as an issue, though he pretends as if Afro Guyanese have a similar obsession with "Africa" ahead of being Guyanese. D2 introduced the issue TWICE two years ago.

We are accustomed to this behavior.

You don't even see the irony that to prioritize your ethnic identity over your national, and to suggest that those outside of your ethnic group are of scant importance is the very definition of clannishness.  As Jagdeo himself said "his people" are rural Indians. Yet he wants to lead Guyana where rural Indians are a MINORITY!  So what will those who don't fit into his notion of who his people are to think?

And look at how Moses was being lambasted for the mere fact that he said that he was a Guyanese of East Indian descent. Why were so many "Indians" offended by this? 

Clannishness clearly because otherwise they would know that for any multi ethnic society to succeed there will have to be an overarching identity that links all of these diverse peoples, which in fact Moses tried to do. 

Now how many "Indians" defended Moses' right to say that he is a Guyanese of East Indian descent?  No they prefer Jagdeo who says that "his people" are rural Indians and that he will "take back Guyana" for them.

FM

And need I remind all that the issue isn't about culture or ethnic identity. The issue is to which one prioritizes that ethnic identity over the national in a manner that serves to exclude those who fall outside of that ethnic definition.

23 years of PPP rule and Zed had NOTHING to say about the rampant racism which occurred against non Indians in that era. Now why should he when his prime identity is that of being Indian, with Guyana his place of birth and nowhere in his thinking embraces the notion that in a multi cultural society there has to be a construct which embraces all. He then queries why some would have a huge problem with this type of thinking after they suffered the  consequences of it under 23 years of PPP rule!

FM
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
.
 

Congoman, .

I know that you think that you insult me.

Now should I remind you that the cousins that you left in India use toilets as places to items while they defecate in the moonlight?  I mean that is part of your culture if you claim to be so "Indian" as in fact there are cultural reasons why so many Indians engage in this.

You should remind yourself that the cousins you left in "Congo" are stll eating humans. India is the cradle of civilisation. I am proud of my culture. Do you not still crave human meat?

Mitwah
Mitwah posted:
 

 I am proud of my culture. Do you not still crave human meat?

Yes. Caste and the abuse that goes with it. Child slavery. defecating in public when toilets are available. Wife burning.  All an integral part of "your" culture.

FM
caribny posted:

And need I remind all that the issue isn't about culture or ethnic identity. The issue is to which one prioritizes that ethnic identity over the national in a manner that serves to exclude those who fall outside of that ethnic definition.

23 years of PPP rule and Zed had NOTHING to say about the rampant racism which occurred against non Indians in that era. Now why should he when his prime identity is that of being Indian, with Guyana his place of birth and nowhere in his thinking embraces the notion that in a multi cultural society there has to be a construct which embraces all. He then queries why some would have a huge problem with this type of thinking after they suffered the  consequences of it under 23 years of PPP rule!

I do not repeat myself as nauseum like you do. I make my point and move on because I have better things to do, as I have told you before. I have made my comments about racism and the Jagdeo rule. Dig it up and reread it. 

 You seem to know what I am thinking. Which crystal ball are you reading! I know that you are attributing to others those feelings that you carry and display so many times here.  

Where is it stated that being East Indian and being Guyanese are mutually exclusive? I think that exists in your mind. Regarding your definition of clannishness, You make up your own definition by pointing to supposed behaviours and then use that to say that East Indians are clannish. This is not only structurally unsound, but also infantile.

Notions of being a proud guyanese and a proud East Indian being mutually exclusive does not exist in my mind or posts. It exists in the minds of several Guyanese, including you, and that come through in some many of your comments. Find out who they are. 

You rarely ever or have never visited Guyana since you have left. Yes, I know you read the news and your relatives tell you. Well, you need to visit Guyana and see the interaction of people of different ethnic groups. Your views are myopic and dangerous. 

I do not have a difficulty with people defining themselves as Guyanese and East Indians. Unfortunately, many East Indians do not feel that they are viewed as Guyanese. When prominent people  in Guyana use words such as "visitors"  one wonders. Yes, all Guyanese have experienced 23,years of the PPP. But, they have experienced 28 years of the PNC dictatorship. No one goes around shouting that Afro Guyanese were partially responsible for the Burnham years. But we have you blaming East Indians for the  23 Years Of PPPmrule. Why the distinction. Because of Rodney and some others? Well, East Indians were struggling also, but they seem not to count because they did nonhave advanced degrees. 

You try to overcone the contradiction that exists in your statement that East Indians learning and keeping parts of their culture is a threat to other groups by your infantile notion of clannishness. And please do not refer me to supposedly author or  sources because I have read many of them.

 

Z
caribny posted:
Mitwah posted:
 

 I am proud of my culture. Do you not still crave human meat?

Yes. Caste and the abuse that goes with it. Child slavery. defecating in public when toilets are available. Wife burning.  All an integral part of "your" culture.

Thanks for admitting that you still crave human meat. It does not matter how much you try to knock my culture, I am still proud to be an Indian. 

You are still a slave; a slave to your racist mentality and inferiority complex for which we Indians have a cure.

Proud to be an Indian. 

Mitwah
Last edited by Mitwah

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