I have been off for a few days but I can understand the concerns from both sides. The African committee is not calling for Lands to be taken from Indos but is lobbying for lands and greater control of lands for Afro. 

Indos should not be concerned since Afros did not have their fair share of lands. Carib mention about how estates flooded farming lands belonging to Afros and as such those lands were abandoned. 

We need to address this issue if we are to move Guyana forward and include Afros as equal partners. 

ronan posted:

Stormborn posted:

ronan posted:

Stormborn posted:

Tell me what he lied about.

again, he lied about the agenda and what was reported at the reparations conference . . . even [re]posted the reporting and boldly challenged me to READ it

reality step in after i pointed out what a jackass he was in his misinterpretation, and then he shut up

i am not revealing anything you don’t already know  . . . one just needs to peruse the early postings on this thread

now banna tek a seat and stop wasting my time

You are wasting your time not me. I am hard press to find any distortions from the stated agenda. ...get land...indians stole some....establish a mythical "village system" because Amerindians used it to get land ( ignorant peddling of nonsense). Phillips represents a beehive of vengeful malevolence and his focus is   on Indians and Amerindians as the bane of his mythical plans.

Also, I never sit unless I so decide

awwww shaddup and [decide to] sit your butt down senor wandering all ova de place not-so-clever

the below was Vishmahabir’s ‘challenge’ to me that properly opened him up to deserved ridicule:

Vish: “Perhaps you can explain this statement for us simpletons and lesser mortals...:”

“He explained that the NDC system has resulted in the control of lands being put in the hands of Indo-Guyanese through the NDCs that span several villages. “The problem is in terms of control. Those lands have gone out of the control of people of African descent because the village has now been located in a local authority that is dominated by people of Indian descent so the Council is not reflective of the village. It is reflective of a wide area that now makes decisions for a village which has things that are peculiar to that village so the system is discriminatory, it’s ill-conceived, it’s wrong in so many various ways and it is because of that wrongness that we are assembled here to see how we could address that wrong,” he said.”

not smart picking up fire rage for the wrong people and being left to twist in the wind by the initiator who recognized long ago that he simply cannot defend his shyte

you now left to generate endless smoke to camouflage wan desperate and stupid ego-deflating situation

memo: - hollering loud and in earnest “but i despise Eric Philips” is not a winning argument

smfh

You are as scatter brained as  they come. The desire to change the NDC is on the supposition Indians control them and wantonly defraud Afro. That is Philips message. Amerindians have too much land. Africans too little and he aims to get some by championing reparation. Sad truth is he is talking to the wrong crowd. Amerindians will fight tooth and nail for their natural patrimony.

That the proposed village system is a panacea to land control is the thinking of a dunce. I do not hate him. As an Amerindian I think he is irrelevant to our aims.  Africans need us to win the plurality and setting us up as a group you can marginalize and try to rob  is not a smart move

yuji22 posted:

I have been off for a few days but I can understand the concerns from both sides. The African committee is not calling for Lands to be taken from Indos but is lobbying for lands and greater control of lands for Afro. 

Indos should not be concerned since Afros did not have their fair share of lands. Carib mention about how estates flooded farming lands belonging to Afros and as such those lands were abandoned. 

We need to address this issue if we are to move Guyana forward and include Afros as equal partners. 

You have not been following the rhetoric of Philips..

Seeking restorative justice and reparations from the Dutch and British colonials is one thing....no one is opposed to this...

But, it should not come at the expense of promoting greater disharmony between Africans and other Guyanese...Philips plan is based on the fact that some of the land now occupied by others belonged to Africans....how is the land going to be apportioned to Africans if other Guyanese, Amerindians and others currently occupy that ancestral land? Philips and others have not fully explained this process...

so, based upon the rhetoric, is this going to come at the expense of others?      

VishMahabir posted:

Philips plan is based on the fact that some of the land now occupied by others belonged to Africans....     

LIE . . . nothing of the sort at the top of the thread

“He explained that the NDC system has resulted in the control of lands being put in the hands of Indo-Guyanese through the NDCs that span several villages. “The problem is in terms of control. Those lands have gone out of the control of people of African descent because the village has now been located in a local authority that is dominated by people of Indian descent so the Council is not reflective of the village. It is reflective of a wide area that now makes decisions for a village which has things that are peculiar to that village so the system is discriminatory, it’s ill-conceived, it’s wrong in so many various ways and it is because of that wrongness that we are assembled here to see how we could address that wrong,” he said.”

if you want a larger conversation on Eric Philips and his praxis, please start a new thread

and stop moving the goalposts . . . it's not manly

Stormborn posted:

The desire to change the NDC is on the supposition Indians control them and wantonly defraud Afro.

fair enough

so, how exactly again does that translate to the irresponsible, invidious, racist, "wanton" blood curdling nonsense you and labba (and to a lesser extent VishM) were prancing around here trying to sell before y'all roof caved in?

nice quiet corner to lick alyuh wounds though

uh huh

ronan posted:

Stormborn posted:

The desire to change the NDC is on the supposition Indians control them and wantonly defraud Afro.

fair enough

so, how exactly again does that translate to the irresponsible, invidious, racist, "wanton" blood curdling nonsense you and labba (and to a lesser extent VishM) were prancing around here trying to sell before y'all roof caved in?

nice quiet corner to lick alyuh wounds though

uh huh

You are wasting adjectives on a nonexistent fact...anyone prancing around spouting racism. The facts are as they stand. Philips want 18 percent of Guyana for the children of former slaves as reparation. The reality is we do not owe anyone a damn thing. Let him talk to the Brits who rode down his ancestors. Worse, he forgot Amerindians were t he first slaves and the brits and others decimated them.

That nut case can insist in speeches and in writing ( with no evidence) that the NDCs steal African land is not deemed racist by you. But us telling you he said it suddenly transmogrify into racism! You have a vivid imagination about winning fights in your head. One fellow charging windmills come to mind.

ronan posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Are they saying that Reparations include taking away land from Amerindians and Indos?

Furthermore...given Alexander's statements ...are they really going to oversee and election that will result in the PNC losing...a la Freddie Kissoon...

Indos and Amerindians should be alarmed at this ... and they should seek to prioritize their own interests...

i’m not on board with this reparations waste-of-time stuff

but why are you making things up and spray painting them as ‘questions’ to create fake ‘realities’ for spurious conversations pitting Afro-Guyanese against Indos and Amerindians?

invidious much?

smfh

I can only wonder where is the evidence that the Afro Guyanese want to take land away from anyone.  My reading of this is that they merely want to have decision about managing a village be made at the village level.  Given that villages in Guyana are inhabited by all sorts of people, and not just Africans not sure where there is a pitting of any group against the other.

The issue is if an African village is surrounded by Indian villages and these villages dominate the NDC then the concern is whether people alien to a given village will have decision making authority over said village.

VishMahabir posted:

 

Bana....before you start swinging the censor hatchet...

YOU not being "on board"...does not mean this plan has not picked up steam..Eric Phillips hair-brained scheme, with borrowed ideas from Professor Hilary Beckles... is alive with credible government supporters..

It is being peddled by an influential and credible organization, a UG professor who is a close advisor to the President, and a GECOM apparatchik with an infatuation for Burnhamism....

...President Granger himself is fully on board...though he understands the racial implications...I suspect...for he sanctioned a commission to look into the land issue a few years back...

Invidious? no

Perfidious? yes   

Eric is a busy man engaged in a large range of activities. His concern is about the impoverished blacks of neglected villages. Villages that were doomed by the actions of the planters and the colonial authorities and as such lost their best and brightest.

Maybe you have an answer to the problem posed by Eric and should communicate with him.  He is quite accessible via FB and other places.

VishMahabir posted:

If this is where Guyana is heading, then this country need to brace itself for more racial divisions.

 

As much as your voice was silent during the PPP era when Indo elites were plotting the demise of Afro Guyanese your sudden interest in "racial divisions" is quite insincere.

Did they only start in May 2015? Hardly not!

Labba posted:

.De whole idea dat blackman can prosper economic is crazy without de bigger market.  

The root of the African ethnic insecurity dilemma isnt about whether Africans will rule or not, despite what Ravi Dev, Stormborn and others think.

They couldn't give 2 figs about who is ruling if they feel that they will have fair access to opportunity. Well the perception that they have is that they do not and this belief remains as active with the Coalition gov't in power as it was under the PPP regime.  And this is why Volda collapsed into her "I gun only hire PNC" nonsense.

Solve this problem and you solve 50% of Guyana's ethnic dilemma.  And I suspect even more as if Indians stop feeling that Africans are restive and resentful they would be less bothered about the ethnic composition of the GDF and the GPF, because face facts, Indians do NOT want those jobs, whereas Africans do.

Regardless as to who supposedly came first we are all here now.  In fact, upsetting Eric's argument many Afro Guyanese are descended from 19thC migration from the West Indies and post slavery migration from West/Central Africa. So are no more entitled to lands than are Amerindians who entered Guyana fleeing Spanish/Portuguese slavers in the 18thC. Yes Arrival Day is AS IMPORTANT to Afro Guyanese as it is to Indo Guyanese!

The issue should be how can Afro Guyanese be made to feel less anxious about their economic circumstances in 2019.  THAT is what ought to be addressed and reparations isnt part of that debate because those who deprived Africans in the 17-19thC no longer live in Guyana. 

That the majority Indo elites might deprive segments of the Afro population of economic opportunity also needs to be seen within the context of the fact that they also deprive grass roots Indians of ditto.   Surveys show that roughly 1/3 of Afro, Indo and mixed identified Guyanese fall under the poverty line. Surveys also show that majority Afro areas have higher % of educated and skilled people than do majority Indo rural areas.

In addition Eric can attempt to turn Afro Guyanese into a communal society as he wishes but the reality is that Afro Guyanese (and other descendants of the Trans Atlantic slave trade) are extremely individualistic and suspicious of communal endeavors.  This was even evident during the heyday of the Village Movement as many scholars of that era have discovered.

ronan posted:

 

 

soooo, Black people complaining that Indo-led NDCs are discriminating against Afro villages is now a call to “chase dem Indos into de Atlantic” . . . hmmmm ?

alyuh race baiting become such a normal part of alyuh discourse that even off the rails none of y’all does even pause, much less say “whoa”!! 

how many ways can we measure contempt bai?

Which is why attempts to crush any discussion of the role of Indians in shaping our ethnic dilemmas leads to nonsensical chatter.   We daily hear about all the ills that Afros do to Indians and Ramotar wrote a whole piece of fecal matter a few weeks ago on this topic. He doesnt entertain discussions about alternative narratives on this subject.

Setting up a constitution to guarantee shared governance doesnt address the frustrations of people living in Sophia because the PNC dominated GT City Council is just as happy bulldozing these people's dwellings as trigger happy House Negro Robeson Benn was.  One might suspect that the black elites despise the black poor regardless as to whether their political affiliations lean PNC or PPP!

So let us also examine the behavior of the private sector because I suspect that these are the ones that Afros really feel to be exclusionary.  Thinking only that their behavior becomes even worse under the PPP than it does with the PNC in power.  At least if the PNC is in power, they think, they can go to Volda and "buse she down so she can fix de problem!"  Under Jagdeo, no dice.

I fear that a lumpen proletariat will emerge losing any hope in the system and as oil wealth increase disparities Lord help Guyana.  GT will become Caracas!

ronan posted:

Labba posted:

Is not only "doctor" Phillips seh Indo tek black peopkle land. Dem big high up man like Greenidge seh de same ting 

i am assuming that this is a separate matter, a legal matter?, external to “reparations” or NDC discrimination or Amerindian land titling . . . rite?

keep peltin alyuh scrapings from de Indo/Blackman sore bai, something gotta stick sometime

the calculus at Freedom House still predicts a net benefit i understand

i’m sure there is plenty more in yuh ‘contempt’ calabash where that pus-laden shyte came from

smfh

The issue of reparations is conflated with the issue for the need for village governance. Why should a village run by people from a larger village two villages away, and it doesnt matter whether such villages by Afro or Indo.  I cannot imagine that Indo villagers want some PPP hack who doesnt know or care about their needs anymore than do Buxton people want to be dominated by people from majority Indo villages in that NDC.

yuji22 posted:

 

We need to address this issue if we are to move Guyana forward and include Afros as equal partners. 

One of your grand daughters must have hacked you because this is too rational and sensible a comment from you.

Most Afros want inclusion as do most Indos.  Its perceptions of the LACK of inclusion which underscores our ethnic anxieties.  I dont think that Indos love the PPP nor do Afros love the PNC so much that this is what underlies their fears.  Apparent tribal loyalty is a proxy for the fact that neither group perceives fear treatment, and they vote in hopes that such unfairness will be reduced if ahbe/ahwe in power.

But "ahbe/ahwe doesnt seem to matter much.  Indos accuse the PPP of favoring blacks and the PNC was accused last year of favoring Indians, the reason why votes went to Volda and not Harmon.

Stormborn posted:

 

You are as scatter brained as  they come. The desire to change the NDC is on the supposition Indians control them and wantonly defraud Afro. 

Indians as a race dont however many business elites (majority of them Indian) do.  You need to know how much land is stolen in Guyana by theft and corruption with the poor unable to protect themselves when this happens. 

Not saying that only blacks are victims but when blacks look up and see most wealthy people are Indian and are in lock step with Jagdeo you see where the paranoia comes from.  When poor Indos tie bundle with Jagdeo you see where this paranoia comes from.

Eric isnt responsible for these views. He merely reflects them. Coming up with solutions to the problems of these rural villages is the best way to deal with its.  Its like South Africa.  If the ANC doesnt solve the problem the EFF will.

Stormborn posted:

d. Philips want 18 percent of Guyana for the children of former slaves as reparation. 

I suggest that you learn some history.  The Dutch hardly enslaved the Amerindians.  They traded with them and Amerindians happily cooperated with the Dutch to capture and return escaped slaves.  This is why Guyana never had the Maroon communities that Suriname developed.

And Amerindians must cease their hypocrisy. Various Amerindian groups invaded, conquered, brutalized and enslaved other Amerindian groups. I get the impression that the Waraus were at the bottom of the pile.  They were NOT all singling happily and playing with each other until the "evil" European arrived.  We all know what the Caribs did to the Tainos in the Caribbean and there were similar behaviors in Guyana.

By the time the British arrived Amerindians had already been decimated by disease or moved away from the coast.  I dont even know how densely populated these areas were in any case prior to the endeavors of the Dutch and the African enslaved peoples to clear, drain and build sea defenses. The brutishness of the British was directed towards the coastal populations of GY.

There are real problems in these villages arising from the legacy of colonialism, just as there are in South Africa.  Where Eric goes wrong is engaging in feats of jealousy towards certain groups.  Africans lost much, but they also gained much, mainly earlier access to education. 

By the early 21st century Africans, Indians and mixed identified people were equally poor, though manifesting their poverty in different ways.  Amerindians easily are the poorest and most excluded and really dont benefit from this land "entrusted" to them.

Eric too must cease his own hypocrisy as when the Coalition took over GT City Council it was blacks who bull dozed blacks and destroyed their stalls, without making alternate arrangements for these people to dwell and earn a living.  Neither Africans nor Indians are a monolithic group and all elites in Guyana have engaged in brutal behavior, not only across ethnic lines but also WITHIN ethnic groups.

I appreciate a more sophisticated analysis and I think that Eric's demands are being conflated by the real concerns of ALL villages that too little decision making occurs within their entities and too much goes to the NDCs which are proving to be quite corrupt and incompetent.

Stormborn posted:

 

That nut case can insist in speeches and in writing ( with no evidence) that the NDCs steal African land is not deemed racist by you. d.

And how do you know that no instances of this happened. Here is how this could have happened. NDC officialdom find some excuse to penalize some small landowner and suddenly a wealthy man takes control.  This through corruption.

You know enough to know that in Guyana when such transaction involves an PPP controlled NDC where the small landowner is black and the rich beneficiary is Indian how this will be interpreted by the black villagers and what they will run and tell Eric.

Understand this. Eric didn't go to them.  They went to Eric when tehy saw that Corbin was inept and a Jagdeo stooge.  And now a narrative developed because the PPP ignored this issue just as Forbes Burnham did in his time.  Of course the people around today weren't around during the Burnham era so all they know is what happened to them when the PPP was in power.  Burnham died 34 years ago and the average Guyanese isnt even that age.

You call that crippled attempt at freestyle haiku oratorical? I called that scatterbrained, incoherent mumbling, with nonsensical arcane references that is known only to himself where plain English would do.

He is yet to explain where VM spoke out of turn or where the Agenda at that meeting was not leveraging blame and insisting the woes of black people was all at the hands of Indians who are apt at stealing land via the NDC.

caribny posted:

Stormborn posted:

 

That nut case can insist in speeches and in writing ( with no evidence) that the NDCs steal African land is not deemed racist by you. d.

And how do you know that no instances of this happened. Here is how this could have happened. NDC officialdom find some excuse to penalize some small landowner and suddenly a wealthy man takes control.  This through corruption.

You know enough to know that in Guyana when such transaction involves an PPP controlled NDC where the small landowner is black and the rich beneficiary is Indian how this will be interpreted by the black villagers and what they will run and tell Eric.

Understand this. Eric didn't go to them.  They went to Eric when tehy saw that Corbin was inept and a Jagdeo stooge.  And now a narrative developed because the PPP ignored this issue just as Forbes Burnham did in his time.  Of course the people around today weren't around during the Burnham era so all they know is what happened to them when the PPP was in power.  Burnham died 34 years ago and the average Guyanese isnt even that age.

There is a difference in the statement Indians marginalized blacks by stealing their land and some land were stolen by crooked people. If that is the case then use the commission to reveal the losses and demand them back. Do not say that "Indians" stole land when most Indians are poorer than church mice.

I am form the Corentyne and 90 percent of the people there own barely more than the land they live on. The 40 percent or so Indians in deep poverty themselves need land. The few with land have been our traditional rich folks like the Hanomans who inherited their property from hardworking grandparents. I do not know any black person there whose land was stolen so that is almost a third of the country where it did not happen.

The blanked statement of Africans are in poverty because they lack a village system is also bunk. 90 percent of black people do not want to go back to living in any commune run by sainted elders. The notion of getting 18 % of the land from the state and housing it under some regime of this sort abject crap. That aint happening. Phillips needed to use his chance at an ivy league education to get a degree in economics because he is failing miserably as a historian and organizer.

And yes, I believe the PPP give their friends and family access to land easily. There again the PPP represent themselves and their perfidious clan not "Indians" in general. Phillips and his clan are poisoning the minds of black folks against Indians. And I have not addressed his lies against Amerindians.

caribny posted:

Stormborn posted:

d. Philips want 18 percent of Guyana for the children of former slaves as reparation. 

I suggest that you learn some history.  The Dutch hardly enslaved the Amerindians.  They traded with them and Amerindians happily cooperated with the Dutch to capture and return escaped slaves.  This is why Guyana never had the Maroon communities that Suriname developed.

And Amerindians must cease their hypocrisy. Various Amerindian groups invaded, conquered, brutalized and enslaved other Amerindian groups. I get the impression that the Waraus were at the bottom of the pile.  They were NOT all singling happily and playing with each other until the "evil" European arrived.  We all know what the Caribs did to the Tainos in the Caribbean and there were similar behaviors in Guyana.

By the time the British arrived Amerindians had already been decimated by disease or moved away from the coast.  I dont even know how densely populated these areas were in any case prior to the endeavors of the Dutch and the African enslaved peoples to clear, drain and build sea defenses. The brutishness of the British was directed towards the coastal populations of GY.

There are real problems in these villages arising from the legacy of colonialism, just as there are in South Africa.  Where Eric goes wrong is engaging in feats of jealousy towards certain groups.  Africans lost much, but they also gained much, mainly earlier access to education. 

By the early 21st century Africans, Indians and mixed identified people were equally poor, though manifesting their poverty in different ways.  Amerindians easily are the poorest and most excluded and really dont benefit from this land "entrusted" to them.

Eric too must cease his own hypocrisy as when the Coalition took over GT City Council it was blacks who bull dozed blacks and destroyed their stalls, without making alternate arrangements for these people to dwell and earn a living.  Neither Africans nor Indians are a monolithic group and all elites in Guyana have engaged in brutal behavior, not only across ethnic lines but also WITHIN ethnic groups.

I appreciate a more sophisticated analysis and I think that Eric's demands are being conflated by the real concerns of ALL villages that too little decision making occurs within their entities and too much goes to the NDCs which are proving to be quite corrupt and incompetent.

Amerindians were enslaved and their land taken whole scale. Those are the facts about how they came under the dominion of alien powers. Being "allowed" to stay within these dominions and earning their keep at the dispensation of the new suzerains was not their way. Forced to comply or die is enforced slavery.

It is amazing how Africa is considered of Africans because that is who lived there and no one ever disputed Kilimanjaro for example is not African because Africans did not inhabit the place. There is a famous tale of a Columbia archaeologists who surveyed the plains at the foothills of the Andes near Bolivia and concluded the people there were impoverished primitives who recently moved there.

It took aircraft surveyed that these people were the original inhabitants and the were not primitive people but remnants of a once vast culture that created the world largest agricultural lands by diverting the rivers etc. Their present condition was so because European diseases etc wiped them up. They are arawaks. If Amerindians live from the north pole to tierra del fuego and further south why did they never see the Rupunini? The faux historian selectively read the historical records and you with him are dispensing bunk history. As long as the wai wais and Wapishans are south American natives they are indigenous. The Guyana border fell on them. Their territorial claims as native peoples is to the whole damn continent. They are settling for a piece of soil in the in the  that Philip now grudgingly wants to deny them on duncified history.

No other group has natural patrimony. All others are imports. We received the lands from the Brits who stole it from native peoples. They they give it back to the imports and natives. The idea that the inheritors of this land is now to pay grievance wages owed by the British is absurd. We all live here and that is the damn pay.

 BTW, I do not want to be inculcated in history as delivered by you and Phillips.