And 1999 to 2007 saw a STAGNANT economy with the only growth being in the real estate and retail sectors.  Evidence clearly of an economy which had remittances as its biggest driver.

After 2007 the biggest driver was GOLD.

If you want to measure Jagdeo's effectiveness look at GUYSICKO!

caribny posted:

ksazma posted

Jagdeo's pension was based on his position as President of Guyana between 1999 and 2011 which incidentally is the period when Guyana and Guyanese experienced the most significant growth and success. That is undeniable. Jagdeo now in a new role after retirement should not be denied his entitlement when he served as president.

FACT. AT no point in Jagdeo's era as president was Guyana anything other than LAST in its human development index ratings, its educational attainment, the access of its population to indoor plumbing and internet access, or GDP per capita, when compared to other countries in the English speaking Caribbean.

Yet Jagdeo pays himself a pension HIGHER than that of any other head of state in the English speaking Caribbean.

This isn't meandering.  This is YOU evading a fact. Jagdeo is greedy, corrupt and arrogant, and only Guyanese are docile enough to accept this.

After this stunt and he has the balls to criticize other politicians for being greedy?  In addition your cop friend doesn't have the ability to take whatever pension that he wishes for himself. He gets only that which his union contract allows! 

You are still wandering aimlessly bai. My comment above is comparing Guyana under Jagdeo's government, to Burnham's, Hoyte's, both Jagans' and Ramotar's. Can't include Granger's since he is still playing with PPP government's money. If you are truly a businessman, you would know that compensation is about perceived worth and negotiations. Even the then Opposition, now Coalition government approved his pension. They did not need to apply to Caricom, the OAS, or the UN for approval of his pension.

caribny posted:

And 1999 to 2007 saw a STAGNANT economy with the only growth being in the real estate and retail sectors.  Evidence clearly of an economy which had remittances as its biggest driver.

After 2007 the biggest driver was GOLD.

If you want to measure Jagdeo's effectiveness look at GUYSICKO!

Objectivity matters. Now compare that to any of the other Guyanese presidents from Burnham to Ramotar. Again, Granger is excluded since it would be infair to include him this soon.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

ksazma posted:

Jagdeo's pension was based on his position as President of Guyana between 1999 and 2011 which incidentally is the period when Guyana and Guyanese experienced the most significant growth and success..

1.   In fact the economy was stagnant until 2007, when gold prices increased leading to a massive expansion of that sector.  NOT due to Jagdeo.  I mean I know that you think that he is GOD because he actually is just a bad tempered, foul mouthed, arrogant man.

2.  Guyana remains the poorest country in the English speaking Caribbean, so why does Jagdeo have higher pensions than other heads?

3.  If Jagdeo had integrity he would put his pension on hold and take the Leader of the opposition salary and perks. But he doesn't so he takes the outsized pension.

4. Are you suggesting that Jagdeo deserves a higher pension than the president of the USA?

1.   Is there another president between 1980 and 2011 who left the economy better than when they started their presidency other than Jagdeo and Jagan? And Jagdeo was far more successful. To acknowledge that does not require that someone think that Jagdeo is a God. I don't know why you would require that someone be recognized as God to acknowledge their record.

2.    I am sure that you as someone in business know that there is no correlation between compensations in different places. Even two people having similar functions in the same company don't always have similar compensation. Secondly, even members of the then Opposition, now Coalition government approved Jagdeo's pension.

3.    Integrity from a politician? Now that is a novel idea. If integrity was something expected from politicians, we wouldn't have seen the current government's first action be a 50% salary increase when they had not yet done anything else.

4.    See answer to 2. Secondly, Obama is far richer than Jagdeo and after he leaves office, his pension would still be the least amount of any of his income sources and will continue to be richer than Jagdeo.

kzama,

Is there another president between 1980 and 2011 who left the economy better than when they started their presidency other than Jagdeo and Jagan? And Jagdeo was far more successful.

You would be well advised to look at the facts of the economic history of Guyana before commenting on the question you posed.

Desmond Hoyte inherited an economy that was devastated by Burnham, and even though he was a leading member of Burnham's economic theme it was clear that his mission was to be a bulwark (along with Carl Greenidge, Winston Murray, Haslyn Parris and others) against Burnham's economic destruction - a battle they didn't succeed in given the politics - and to be the face of moderation working with the World Bank and the IMF when Guyana's balance of payments went into the tank. Hoyte immediately liberated the economy from the high tariffs, stifling foreign exchange regime, inefficient internal trade and controlled pricing, etc. He left that economy, albeit with prodding from the World Bank and IMF, in far better shape than he found it.

In measuring the economic performance under the Jagdeo Presidency, you ought to look at metrics of economic development that indicate an economy that was taken to a better place. Jagdeo's performance did not result in a move away from the defunct bauxite and increasingly irrelevant sugar to the more value-added manufacturing and services in the technology sectors that Barbados, Trinidad and Jamaica showed. Land reforms started under Janet Jagan and continued under Jagdeo stimulated construction but without historic remittances at a time that may never be repeated this would not have been as successful as in places like Tuschen, Essequibo and elsewhere.

One has to be wary of equating real estate construction due to expatriates and returning emigrants' involvement and commodity price rises, like gold (that may be historic in its rise and not repeated soon), with real economic development and transformation. You have to look at the physical infrastructure (hospitals, schools, roads and ferries were built yes) but you have to look at how the ancillary services like doctors, nurses, teachers, maintenance personnel, etc. measure up to the physical instances.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

ksazma posted

Jagdeo's pension was based on his position as President of Guyana between 1999 and 2011 which incidentally is the period when Guyana and Guyanese experienced the most significant growth and success. That is undeniable. Jagdeo now in a new role after retirement should not be denied his entitlement when he served as president.

FACT. AT no point in Jagdeo's era as president was Guyana anything other than LAST in its human development index ratings, its educational attainment, the access of its population to indoor plumbing and internet access, or GDP per capita, when compared to other countries in the English speaking Caribbean.

Yet Jagdeo pays himself a pension HIGHER than that of any other head of state in the English speaking Caribbean.

This isn't meandering.  This is YOU evading a fact. Jagdeo is greedy, corrupt and arrogant, and only Guyanese are docile enough to accept this.

After this stunt and he has the balls to criticize other politicians for being greedy?  In addition your cop friend doesn't have the ability to take whatever pension that he wishes for himself. He gets only that which his union contract allows! 

. If you are truly a businessman, you would know that compensation is about perceived worth and negotiations.

And I have told you that Jagdeo, and Granger for that matter have limited perceived worth and are abusing the docility and racial paranoia of Guyanese.

At least APNU AFC supporters condemn the 50% pay increase, even as you, like a typical PPP supporter rush to condone Jagdeo's scandalous pay.  Why the disparity in condemnation when BOTH moves are scandalous and self serving?

Now tell me why Jagdeo, and Granger deserve to be paid more than Rowley, when he retires, or more than Manning was paid, before he died.

Guyana is LAST by any measure of socio economic development when compared to other Caribbean countries which were also former British colonies.  Guyana used to be SECOND behind T&T and on par with Jamaica and Barbados.  In fact islanders used to be migrating TO Guyana.  Now Guyanese are fleeing to the SAME islands which once provided immigrants. 

Guyanese are now 15% of Antigua's population, and in fact that island has so many Guyanese nurses and teachers that they had to ask for a waiver to prevent the immigration of more. 

Under CARICOM rules any professional can work any where without seeking a work permit.  Guyanese were the LARGEST group taking advantage of this. NOT Jamaica, with its vastly larger population!

Guyana is the ONLY country in the English speaking Caribbean with unexplored potential yet on May 2015, after 23 years of PPP rule, it was the most disrespected nation in the English speaking Caribbean.  Guyanese are viewed with contempt because of how we have allowed our politicians, INCLUDING JAGDEO, to rape us.

This wasn't a "negotiation".  This was the PNC and the PPP acting together to feather their nests.   Jagdeo then becomes a hypocrite when he screams about the "50%" when his pension is just as scandalous.

Kari posted:

 

kzama,

Is there another president between 1980 and 2011 who left the economy better than when they started their presidency other than Jagdeo and Jagan? And Jagdeo was far more successful.

You would be well advised to look at the facts of the economic history of Guyana before commenting on the question you posed.

Desmond Hoyte inherited an economy that was devastated by Burnham, and even though he was a leading member of Burnham's economic theme it was clear that his mission was to be a bulwark (along with Carl Greenidge, Winston Murray, Haslyn Parris and others) against Burnham's economic destruction - a battle they didn't succeed in given the politics - and to be the face of moderation working with the World Bank and the IMF when Guyana's balance of payments went into the tank. Hoyte immediately liberated the economy from the high tariffs, stifling foreign exchange regime, inefficient internal trade and controlled pricing, etc. He left that economy, albeit with prodding from the World Bank and IMF, in far better shape than he found it.

In measuring the economic performance under the Jagdeo Presidency, you ought to look at metrics of economic development that indicate an economy that was taken to a better place. Jagdeo's performance did not result in a move away from the defunct bauxite and increasingly irrelevant sugar to the more value-added manufacturing and services in the technology sectors that Barbados, Trinidad and Jamaica showed. Land reforms started under Janet Jagan and continued under Jagdeo stimulated construction but without historic remittances at a time that may never be repeated this would not have been as successful as in places like Tuschen, Essequibo and elsewhere.

One has to be wary of equating real estate construction due to expatriates and returning emigrants' involvement and commodity price rises, like gold (that may be historic in its rise and not repeated soon), with real economic development and transformation. You have to look at the physical infrastructure (hospitals, schools, roads and ferries were built yes) but you have to look at how the ancillary services like doctors, nurses, teachers, maintenance personnel, etc. measure up to the physical instances.

 

Kari bai, you seem to want your cake and eat it too. You are applying two different parameters to advance your argument.

caribny posted:

And I have told you that Jagdeo, and Granger for that matter have limited perceived worth and are abusing the docility and racial paranoia of Guyanese.

At least APNU AFC supporters condemn the 50% pay increase, even as you, like a typical PPP supporter rush to condone Jagdeo's scandalous pay.  Why the disparity in condemnation when BOTH moves are scandalous and self serving?

Now tell me why Jagdeo, and Granger deserve to be paid more than Rowley, when he retires, or more than Manning was paid, before he died.

Guyana is LAST by any measure of socio economic development when compared to other Caribbean countries which were also former British colonies.  Guyana used to be SECOND behind T&T and on par with Jamaica and Barbados.  In fact islanders used to be migrating TO Guyana.  Now Guyanese are fleeing to the SAME islands which once provided immigrants. 

Guyanese are now 15% of Antigua's population, and in fact that island has so many Guyanese nurses and teachers that they had to ask for a waiver to prevent the immigration of more. 

Under CARICOM rules any professional can work any where without seeking a work permit.  Guyanese were the LARGEST group taking advantage of this. NOT Jamaica, with its vastly larger population!

Guyana is the ONLY country in the English speaking Caribbean with unexplored potential yet on May 2015, after 23 years of PPP rule, it was the most disrespected nation in the English speaking Caribbean.  Guyanese are viewed with contempt because of how we have allowed our politicians, INCLUDING JAGDEO, to rape us.

This wasn't a "negotiation".  This was the PNC and the PPP acting together to feather their nests.   Jagdeo then becomes a hypocrite when he screams about the "50%" when his pension is just as scandalous.

 

You are still chasing tour tail all over the place bai. Do like me and address one thing at a time. It is easier that way.

ksazma posted:

Kari posted:

 

kzama,

Is there another president between 1980 and 2011 who left the economy better than when they started their presidency other than Jagdeo and Jagan? And Jagdeo was far more successful.

You would be well advised to look at the facts of the economic history of Guyana before commenting on the question you posed.

Desmond Hoyte inherited an economy that was devastated by Burnham, and even though he was a leading member of Burnham's economic theme it was clear that his mission was to be a bulwark (along with Carl Greenidge, Winston Murray, Haslyn Parris and others) against Burnham's economic destruction - a battle they didn't succeed in given the politics - and to be the face of moderation working with the World Bank and the IMF when Guyana's balance of payments went into the tank. Hoyte immediately liberated the economy from the high tariffs, stifling foreign exchange regime, inefficient internal trade and controlled pricing, etc. He left that economy, albeit with prodding from the World Bank and IMF, in far better shape than he found it.

In measuring the economic performance under the Jagdeo Presidency, you ought to look at metrics of economic development that indicate an economy that was taken to a better place. Jagdeo's performance did not result in a move away from the defunct bauxite and increasingly irrelevant sugar to the more value-added manufacturing and services in the technology sectors that Barbados, Trinidad and Jamaica showed. Land reforms started under Janet Jagan and continued under Jagdeo stimulated construction but without historic remittances at a time that may never be repeated this would not have been as successful as in places like Tuschen, Essequibo and elsewhere.

One has to be wary of equating real estate construction due to expatriates and returning emigrants' involvement and commodity price rises, like gold (that may be historic in its rise and not repeated soon), with real economic development and transformation. You have to look at the physical infrastructure (hospitals, schools, roads and ferries were built yes) but you have to look at how the ancillary services like doctors, nurses, teachers, maintenance personnel, etc. measure up to the physical instances.

 

Kari bai, you seem to want your cake and eat it too. You are applying two different parameters to advance your argument.

???????

No answer to the 1985 to 1992 changes in the economy?

No answer to an economy under Jagdeo that clearly had (i) remittances at historic never-to-be-repeated levels; (ii) laundered cash spending on 6 and 7 storey buildings that seem to amaze you as economic development along with long overdue malls; (iii) gold price rises that we'll not see in a long time; and all of which you see as a better economy in 2011 than 2001?

Your discombobulated state worry me kzama. Can't make head or tail out of your response - two different parameters?? Advance MY argument?? have cake and eat it??? unless if the prefix "pata" is added.

Kari posted:

ksazma posted:

Kari posted:

 

kzama,

Is there another president between 1980 and 2011 who left the economy better than when they started their presidency other than Jagdeo and Jagan? And Jagdeo was far more successful.

You would be well advised to look at the facts of the economic history of Guyana before commenting on the question you posed.

Desmond Hoyte inherited an economy that was devastated by Burnham, and even though he was a leading member of Burnham's economic theme it was clear that his mission was to be a bulwark (along with Carl Greenidge, Winston Murray, Haslyn Parris and others) against Burnham's economic destruction - a battle they didn't succeed in given the politics - and to be the face of moderation working with the World Bank and the IMF when Guyana's balance of payments went into the tank. Hoyte immediately liberated the economy from the high tariffs, stifling foreign exchange regime, inefficient internal trade and controlled pricing, etc. He left that economy, albeit with prodding from the World Bank and IMF, in far better shape than he found it.

In measuring the economic performance under the Jagdeo Presidency, you ought to look at metrics of economic development that indicate an economy that was taken to a better place. Jagdeo's performance did not result in a move away from the defunct bauxite and increasingly irrelevant sugar to the more value-added manufacturing and services in the technology sectors that Barbados, Trinidad and Jamaica showed. Land reforms started under Janet Jagan and continued under Jagdeo stimulated construction but without historic remittances at a time that may never be repeated this would not have been as successful as in places like Tuschen, Essequibo and elsewhere.

One has to be wary of equating real estate construction due to expatriates and returning emigrants' involvement and commodity price rises, like gold (that may be historic in its rise and not repeated soon), with real economic development and transformation. You have to look at the physical infrastructure (hospitals, schools, roads and ferries were built yes) but you have to look at how the ancillary services like doctors, nurses, teachers, maintenance personnel, etc. measure up to the physical instances.

 

Kari bai, you seem to want your cake and eat it too. You are applying two different parameters to advance your argument.

???????

No answer to the 1985 to 1992 changes in the economy?

No answer to an economy under Jagdeo that clearly had (i) remittances at historic never-to-be-repeated levels; (ii) laundered cash spending on 6 and 7 storey buildings that seem to amaze you as economic development along with long overdue malls; (iii) gold price rises that we'll not see in a long time; and all of which you see as a better economy in 2011 than 2001?

Your discombobulated state worry me kzama. Can't make head or tail out of your response - two different parameters?? Advance MY argument?? have cake and eat it??? unless if the prefix "pata" is added.

I don't know what improvements you are talking about. We went to Guyana in August of 1992 for our youngest sister's wedding and we had to take everything but meat for that wedding. The GYD was by this time devalued by some 70%. Today people in Guyana have homes with fingerprint access systems. 

Kzaaz..what's this thing about applying two different parameters?

I cannot help if you don't understand how the economy works, hoiw it's measured and how to know when a country has advanced, stood still or regressed. You seem immune to logic and economic understanding. I'll leave it at that.

Kari posted:

Kzaaz..what's this thing about applying two different parameters?

I cannot help if you don't understand how the economy works, hoiw it's measured and how to know when a country has advanced, stood still or regressed. You seem immune to logic and economic understanding. I'll leave it at that.

Yuh right bai. I shouldn't believe my lying eyes.

ksazma posted:

Kari posted:

Kzaaz..what's this thing about applying two different parameters?

I cannot help if you don't understand how the economy works, hoiw it's measured and how to know when a country has advanced, stood still or regressed. You seem immune to logic and economic understanding. I'll leave it at that.

Yuh right bai. I shouldn't believe my lying eyes.

Bhai Kasz you really gat patience

Nehru posted:

ksazma posted:

Kari posted:

Kzaaz..what's this thing about applying two different parameters?

I cannot help if you don't understand how the economy works, hoiw it's measured and how to know when a country has advanced, stood still or regressed. You seem immune to logic and economic understanding. I'll leave it at that.

Yuh right bai. I shouldn't believe my lying eyes.

Bhai Kasz you really gat patience

In late 1988, a former co-worker asked me to buy some motor cycle parts for her boyfriend's bike. I swear the list included everything for a motorcycle except gas. That was part of Hoyte's improved Guyana.

ksazma posted:

Nehru posted:

ksazma posted:

Kari posted:

Kzaaz..what's this thing about applying two different parameters?

I cannot help if you don't understand how the economy works, hoiw it's measured and how to know when a country has advanced, stood still or regressed. You seem immune to logic and economic understanding. I'll leave it at that.

Yuh right bai. I shouldn't believe my lying eyes.

Bhai Kasz you really gat patience

In late 1988, a former co-worker asked me to buy some motor cycle parts for her boyfriend's bike. I swear the list included everything for a motorcycle except gas. That was part of Hoyte's improved Guyana.

In Kari's World progress is much different.

Nehru posted:

ksazma posted:

Nehru posted:

ksazma posted:

Kari posted:

Kzaaz..what's this thing about applying two different parameters?

I cannot help if you don't understand how the economy works, hoiw it's measured and how to know when a country has advanced, stood still or regressed. You seem immune to logic and economic understanding. I'll leave it at that.

Yuh right bai. I shouldn't believe my lying eyes.

Bhai Kasz you really gat patience

In late 1988, a former co-worker asked me to buy some motor cycle parts for her boyfriend's bike. I swear the list included everything for a motorcycle except gas. That was part of Hoyte's improved Guyana.

In Kari's World progress is much different.

Kari wishes to indulge in semantics. I prefer to point to the real. I know someone who built his fortune from a grocery stall in Bourda market. Back in the late 80's that stall was basically empty. Not so long ago, he was building houses to house his travelling his guests for his daughter's wedding. That was before last year's elections. 

ksazma posted:

 

 

Kari bai, you seem to want your cake and eat it too. You are applying two different parameters to advance your argument.

Be honest.  You either don't understand, or cannot be bothered to read what Kari wrote.  Because if you did you would refute his argument.  But you cannot.

Folks like you and DG need to know that your inane responses just reveal your inability to defend your Jagdeo worshipping thesis.  Jagdeo was lucky that gold prices soared from around 2007.  Because up to then the economy was one based on real estate/retail supported by remittances and money laundering. 

It was during the late Hoyte and the Cheddi years that the economy achieved growth.  This due to the Hoyte initiatives as described by Kari, recovery in the rice sector (PPP supporters happy to see the back of the PNC), and increased public expenditures, possible as debt write-offs reduced the need for debt service.

By the time Jagdeo came around the above referenced factors had already worked their way through the economy.  Despite his reputation as being the magical economist what we saw under Jagdeo was increased lawlessness, corruption, money laundering, drug dealing and investment in speculative ventures.

The productive parts of the economy remained stagnant, or had entered decline.  In fact the manufacturing sector (other than that connected to sugar/rice) was SMALLER than in 2011 than it was in 1992.

FACT.  Guyana in 2015 still had the same economy that it had in 1946. The PPP did NOTHING to transform the economy by upgrading Guyana's production up the value chain.  We export raw commodities, with limited processing.  We haven't invested in the necessary infrastructure to attract higher value service sector industries.  We haven't invested in the necessary infrastructure to expand our non traditional agricultural sector.

An example of this is coconut water.  There is a boom in demand. While we mightn't have the productive capacity to corner super market shelf space in the USA we can do so in niche markets.

APNU AFC clearly lacks the imagination to be creative in economic transformation.  But let us cease pretending that the PPP was.

"Jagdeo was lucky that gold prices soared from around 2007.  Because up to then the economy was one based on real estate/retail supported by remittances and money laundering."

This is what some of these people here just don't get.

ksazma posted:

 

Today people in Guyana have homes with fingerprint access systems. 

Seriously?  Guyana has the LOWEST indoor plumbing in the English speaking Caribbean and only the elites can afford what you describe. And of course the access systems also reflects the devastating levels of crime which developed under the PPP.

ksazma posted:

 

Kari wishes to indulge in semantics. I prefer to point to the real. I know someone who built his fortune from a grocery stall in Bourda market. Back in the late 80's that stall was basically empty. Not so long ago, he was building houses to house his travelling his guests for his daughter's wedding. That was before last year's elections. 

Yes a simpleton like you believes in anecdotes.  And about ONE person.

Intelligent people  build opinions based on data from 3rd party sources.

98% of people in Barbados, 95% in the Bahamas, 92% in St Kitts Nevis, 84% in T&T, Belize at 80%, even Cuba is at 72% with access to indoor plumbing.

Guyana last at 66%.  BELOW Dominica, an impoverished island.

So who cares what one millionaire does!   I will add that PPP supporters, being mainly rural, have even LESS access to indoor plumbing!  Yet they revere Jagdeo.

Carib bai, don't expect me to join you on your wild goose chase here. The only required answer is that at what point between 1980 (the year Burnham installed himself as president. No one seemed to have taken Arthur Chung seriously) and 2016 did Guyanese in general felt more empowered, enfranchised, successful and prosperous. That is your challenge. All the other wild goose chases does not address this one simple(ton) question. Certainly you with your sophistication you should have no problem staying focus.

Kazaaaazzzz, You're the simpleton on a wild goose chase - trying to convince yourself that the best years of Guyana was under the Jagdeo Presidency.

You have no idea of what constitutes economic progress. And don't pretend to speak for rural Indians. I know them. You speak like a middle class urban Indian who know nothing about logies and daubing battam house so one could sleep wit ha chador on it. I lived as them. Let's leave it at that.

Kari posted:

Kazaaaazzzz, You're the simpleton on a wild goose chase - trying to convince yourself that the best years of Guyana was under the Jagdeo Presidency.

You have no idea of what constitutes economic progress. And don't pretend to speak for rural Indians. I know them. You speak like a middle class urban Indian who know nothing about logies and daubing battam house so one could sleep wit ha chador on it. I lived as them. Let's leave it at that.

Kari bai, thanks fuh reminding meh dat I is a canecuttah.

ksazma posted:

Carib bai, don't expect me to join you on your wild goose chase here.

No just enjoying how stupid you are.  You cannot raise a valid argument to defend your cause, that is evident.

ksazma posted:

..

Kari bai, thanks fuh reminding meh dat I is a canecuttah.

All you know about cane is pressing that automatic security system to protect you against drunken and irate cane cutters.  Kari is right. 

The fact remains that poor Indians, large numbers of them, were forced to flee Guyana while Jagdeo was in power.  You see them scattered around the Caribbean, struggling just like illegal Mexicans in the USA, and just as reviled by the population at large.  And yet more and more of them fled to islands like Tortola. 

The Tortolans all but hold their noses at these PPP supporters when they arrive with their pagan religions in a good bible thumping Christian island like Tortola.

LIAT has a flight that runs from Guyana to Barbados and continues to Antigua, St Kitts and Tortola.  Flight especially designed to allow Guyanese to travel between these islands up north and Guyana.  In all 5 islands Guyanese are the largest immigrants.

So continue with your nonsense about Guyanese wealth when it is reviled for its poverty throughout the Eastern Caribbean.