Thank you for spotlighting my statement of fact. I don't really see how I'm stating anything revolutionary here.

I stand behind the title of this thread 100% as a statement of fact.

I want someone to refute this statement of fact and point to me where them other centers of Indian influence/power exist within the State aside from the Presidency and the Cabinet (the "Government")

you're welcome

now, lessee here . . . your (absurd, but crafty in a low way) opinion regarding consequences of a possible outcome of an event that has not yet happened is claimed as "FACT"!! which i am supposedly constrained to "refute"

har har har harr!

bai, as someone with lil training in things scientific/logical, i am in awe of your "facts"

like rev dem, u are beyond embarrassment

Parosin Parosin...lemme restate it in the present tense then since it seems beyond you to do it on your own initiative thusly:

THE PRESIDENCY AND THE CABINET OF GUYANA (THE "GOVERNMENT") IS THE ONLY CENTER OF INDIAN INFLUENCE/POWER WITHIN THE STATE OF GUYANA TODAY MARCH 6TH 2015.

i look forward to many more red herring 'refinements' of your facts; but, for now, i prefer to focus on the title of this thread

is that too much to ask?

btw, in all this, u still seem thoroughly confused about what is "fact" and how it differs from "spin/opinion"

So tell us, is the Government (Presidency + Cabinet) as constituted today a center of Indian or Black influence/power in the State?

you and i both know that that is only tangentially related to the issue at bar

nice try though . . . lol

because there is no local government to act on its own,guyana is being rule like a dictatorship 

LMAO

Do you not know what "tangentially" means?

Anyways, can you condescend to provide me with an answer to this evidently unrelated question?

Indulge me, your humble inferior petitioner M'Lard.

40% of the cabinet will be held by Indo party II.  Indeed the AFC will remain Indo party II as they will dare not attempt to go after the PNC base.

Nagamootoo remains  a PPP man from the Cheddi faction.  I am sure that most of the people surrounding him will be Indians.

Where do you concoct such nonsense. You yourself stated that the GDF is toothless and weak, this being the only area of NOMINAL influence by the African population.

Guyana on March 6 2015 is 70% Indo dominated, and that is most likely an under estimate.

the way you guys carry on about Indian and black power soon guyanese will need two different ID CARDS one for the collie and one for them black

I'm not saying that Indians may not have some influence under this new Coalition configuration with their 40% of Ministerial portfolios and whatnot. That influence will come at the pleasure of a Black dominated Presidency and Cabinet. That is a profound change to the status quo. Let us not quibble about hard facts.

My point is cast in realpolitik terms. A Coalition win is the end of Indian power/dominance in the Presidency and the Cabinet. That's just a hard fact.

Note...I'm not making a case for or against. I'm just stating the issue in clear realpolitik terms.

TANGENTIAL

b :  touching lightly :  incidental, peripheral <tangential involvement>; also :  of little relevance <arguments tangential to the main point

-Merriam-Webster

as you well know, i am not receptive to following red herrings . . . refusing to dignify and all that, remember?

now, if you want to discuss how ethnic power distribution is affected by capture of the Presidency . . . i'm game, but not on this thread

again, nice try

Here we go. Classic Carib Beer. Go to everywhere I was not referring to.

This is the Third World old man. And Guyana is still a banana republic.

Guyanese centers of hard power within the State are as follows: The Presidency/Cabinet, the Army, the Police, the Public Service, and the Judiciary.

Of those listed above tell me what Indians hold and what they don't and by what lawful right do they hold it and how strongly they hold it.

And spare me this nonsense about all the plummiest of the plum posts goin to Indians in the Police Force, the Public Service, and the Judiciary. All of those plums are easily dismissed at the pleasure of the President. These centers of State power remain firmly Black.

The only thing Black power in Guyana lacks is a Black President and a Black dominated Cabinet. Essentially about a dozen people's jobs.

Shaitaan's antics on this thread are akin to:

me: Marxist dialectics are not scientific

he: [in rebuttal] but, but, but . . . oppressed people do tend to rebel, rite? let's discuss that instead

I speak to the way things are in my analysis. I would of course like them to be radically different.

That we are in a racial situation in Guyana is a fact. We have a racial problem that I suspect demands a solution that takes into account our racial problem. That seems elementary.

shaitaan has strong opinions . . . but he is a coward

he tries to mask his views as "objective" -simply reflecting what [his?] people think . . . not necessarily his own

when push comes to shove, as demonstrated here, when his shyte becomes intellectually unsustainable, he pivots . . . attempts to shift the discussion [for now] to more defensible ground hoping no one will notice

no way to respect that

I would think that the end of dominance by one ethnicity would be a good thing.

Given that Nagamootoo has negotiated certain rights, and has a bully pulpit of Granger reneges, as well as the ability to end the coalition gov't if the AFC withdraws, I will not exactly consider him to be powerless.

So the coalition will be African led, but not dominated. Especially when we consider that the economy will continue to be dominated by Indian elites, who will exercise strong influence over any gov't elected.

Answering you Parosin is always is always such a mentally taxing exercise. Much like dealing with a small child is mentally taxing.

Regarding cowardice, list me the positions/opinions you think I secretly hold that I won't admit to and merely impute to others (Indians in particular). I can almost guarantee you will get admissions where warranted.

Shaitaan is raising an issue that many in Guyana are thinking. So wouldn't it be better to debate the IDEA and not the PERSON?

An APNU AFC coalition will not be African dominated, because Nagamootoo has negotiated certain areas of control. Yes Granger can attempt to renege.  And if he does the AFC withdraws and APNU will be tossed out of power, with a return of a PPP majority.

This is realpolitik.

Now is Nagamootoo running around Regions 2,3, 5, 4,and 6 educating people to that fact?

What's real sad is these two groups fight against each other then all of a suddenly the white man come and say something, they shut they rass up and do whatever they been told to do, such as having elections or they not getting funds etc.

Since Guyana was let go from the English, Guyanese should have tried to show the world they can exist together, they don't need no dam white man fo get them going, instead the stupidy rass people dem, fight among themselves. They stupid ta rass.

Hope he does or it's all in vain.

I completely agree that the end of dominance by one ethnicity will be a good thing.

This is not what is being presented here in realpolitik terms. This is the end of dominance by Indians for the re-introduction of Black dominance. What makes this even more incredible is that Blacks also dominate the other centers of State power...army, police, public service, and judiciary.

Nagamootoo has in realpolitik terms negotiated some Cabinet portfolios for him and pals under a Black Government. Nothing fancier than that.

My inner Machiavelli is not impressed. Also my inner Machiavelli does not trust Nagamootoo.

P.S...any semi-intelligent politician can turn even this Coalition into perpetual PNC dominance. I'm gonna ignore that nonsense about our coolie moneyed class. It has zero relevance to power in an authoritarian Third World state. Let's ask those Kenyan and Ugandan Indians how much their economic "power" is worth in the face of a Black dominated State.

Redux will do better if he debated IDEAS and CONCEPTS and not people.  Really and truly none of us matter so engaging people in endless personal attacks is a waste.  I put 2 people on ignore and will do the same to others so petty.

P.S....I totally understand why Nagamootoo went for this deal. He does not understand the Indian dilemma in Guyana. Neither do his cult followers. He rejects race as the framework of analyzing Guyana and its principal ills. He is a Marxist to the core. His belief system does not allow for this. Which is why he will fail. He don't understand Indian people. Anyone whose primary analytical framework for politics is Marxism does not understand Guyanese Indians. We are far more complex than proletariat, lumpen proletariat, and various shades of bourgeoisie.

This situation isn't a lost cause as no doubt there are many Indians who understand that the quagmire of race politics hasn't helped any one outside of the elites.

But he needs to come down from the clouds and tell people that he acknowledges that some might have misgivings, the reason why certain controls have been negotiated.   And that APNU needs the AFC as much as the AFC needs APNU, so will not risk forcing the AFC to exit a coalition government.

What concerns me however is the notion that press conference and high minded debate seems to be what he thinks will win elections.

The PPP and the PNC have their race based die hards.  Both parties also have their disaffected supporters.  The PPP can buy votes, suppress votes and also rig the election to a degree.  Given that no one knows what the Nagamootoo voters need to do APNU and AFC need to have a plan A, B, and C.

The interesting and almost insurmountable thing is that I think the ordinary Indian "gets" this realpolitik understanding of the fragile state of Indian hard power in the Guyanese State. He/she may not have the fine language of politics and government that we pontificators may have but they get it.

They know of the centers of State power and where Indians control and where they don't.

It is extremely arrogant and actually wrong of us to think that ordinary unlettered people who live in this State do not "get" it.

Ironically, the PPP "gets" it too. Which is precisely why they keep the army, police, public service, and judiciary as centers of Black dominance instead of making them more ethnically representative. Making them more ethnically representative will destroy the PPP's raison d'etre of "protecting Indians." Who will the Indians need protecting from then?

The end of Black dominance in other centers of power will mean the end of Indian dominance in the Presidency/Cabinet. The PPP long ago debated this. Ramotar even said himself to the ExCo "it is not in the party's interest for Indians to join the army." He was right.

Ever wondered why the PPP keeps the status quo in the army, police, public service, and judiciary? Because they so like Black people?

I challenge you to prove that there is a strong interest among Indians for joining the GDF and the GPF.  In addition the civil service is majority black, just as it was under colonial rule.  And just as under colonial rule, these blacks who to do the bidding of those who actually run things, and these are rarely blacks, or if they are, remain toothless and powerless.

The levers of power in Guyana remain in the hands of Indian elites.  Yes the system doesn't cater to the Indian grass roots, and panics them by the presence of black grass root people in certain positions.  Yes this allows the veneer of Indian victimhood at the hands of blacks.

Don't make me laugh about the judiciary.  You mean the same judiciary who remain impotent when PPP officials engage in criminal behavior?  Or who blocked the few pathetic attempts by the opposition to reign in PPP abuse?  They may not be Indians, but the serve the purposes of the Indian elite.

The guys who concocted all of those PPP white elephant deals where their cronies were enriched aren't black, and very few blacks were among those rewarded.

So yes I agree grass roots Indians don't have much power, and the loss of an Indian monopoly in political power might hurt them psychological as they would no longer draw solace from "ahbe pan tap", but Africans are powerless, even the African elites.

That you are of the opinion that Indians don't want to join the Disciplined Forces is irrelevant. It is an accepted fact that balancing the forces in multiethnic states work to reduce inter-ethnic tensions. Much much ink has been spilt on this issue already and the consensus is not if but how to achieve it. That armies and police matter in a banana republic is not in dispute.

The Civil Service are the agents of the State who interact most with the civil population (aside from the police and judiciary to a lessor extent) is also well established. I don't know any Indians who can't summon at least 5 nightmare stories of some hideous behavior by some Civil Servant attributable to race. I had 1 before I was 8. I saw some low class low level Civil Servant speak down to my well-respected and well-known in the area family patriarch when I was like 6. And the old man who ordinarily had a violent temper for far less to anyone had to endure it. That is typical.

The Judiciary is also another matter. Indians are not "entrenched" in the Judiciary. Especially as Guyana's judiciary tend to bend to will of the incumbent government.

That you think that the genuine Indian security dilemma boils down to some "psychological" abbe pon tap trivialization is shocking and unworthy of you. Perhaps you think I suffer from this malady as well?

The entire house of cards that passes for Indian domination in Guyana is sourced in the Presidency and the Cabinet. Removing Indian control of this this brings it all crashing down. We are no Gramschian hegemon. I suspect most Indians are keenly aware of this to one degree or another, which is why the Coalition which will in fact destroy the only source of Indian State power in Guyana will not attract significant Indian support. Guyanese Indians would be the first ethnic group from an ethnic conflict State to vote themselves out of power.

P.S....I also suspect that none of our kleptocrat nouveau riche feel quite secure when faced with the prospect of PNC rule. They are all one forensic audit away from jail and forfeiture.

the term "delusional" jumped to my lips, then I remembered that this is the same guy who is so mendacious, so intellectually slack, so insincere, that he proposed the hilarious "bill for affirmative action in the private sector for Blacks and Amerindians" to score some silly point supporting continued PPP rule

Let us be clear here. East Indians drafted the pernicious constitution for Burnham. Also I am confident Granger and Nagamootoo are wise enough to govern in the interest of all. I am more concerned with policy mistakes and the temptations of some of the hot heads to conduct heavy handed business. Indians have nothing to fear. Indeed in spite of the systemic discrimination under the PNC part 1, they did better than today in many ways. I have always said the PPP is the enemy within. They don't even know the PPP is the wolf inside.

How does one "balance" the armed forces if Indians don't want to join.  How come Amerindians are evenly represented in the armed forces, at least at the lower ranks, when they are despised by coastlanders and endure levels of bigotry, and lack any political leverage to defend themselves?

Since when do clerical workers carry any weight and why are you so sure that Africans receive any better service at the hands of these people?  Indeed Africans are liable to be treated worse as the African clerk might be afraid of who the Indian might know. 

Indians dominate the leadership positions in the public sector, and getting rid of some little black clerk as quite easy.  Have you heard from the PSU since the PPP gutted it several years ago?  So what defense do these clerks have?

The judiciary in Guyana have always bent to the will of those who dominate governance, as do the armed forces.  True under British rule, and under Burnham, and still true under the Ramotar/Jagdeo cabal. So who does the judiciary empower Africans?  Or the armed forces for that matter, yes the same ones who you admitted were totally gutted and weak and dependent on the Indian elite.

Let us look at one African who does have power.  Benn.  He uses it to harass African vendors, many of whom don't have alternate employment opportunities.  He certainly doesn't advocate for Africans to get favors not available to Indians.

the "ahbe pan tap" ethno triumphalism displayed by many Indians, though I suspect less than was the case compared to several years ago, is the same trap that "ahwe pan tap" had for blacks under the Burnham regime.  In both cases the grass roots was used as fodder for the elites, and otherwise ignored or exploited.  I submit that this fake sense of ethnic triumphalism hurts the non elites of the dominant ethnicity almost as much as it hurts other non elite ethnics.

As of now the Indian grass roots have NOTHING.  The non Indian Brazzington gets way more out of the PPP than do the rice farmers and cane cutters.  So why should they be used to preserve an ethnic elites' monopoly control?

And Shaitaan one cannot compare the economic clout wielded by the Indian elite now with what they had in the 60s.

When I was a little boy in G/town in the early 60s the top dogs were the whites (foreign and then local) followed by the Portuguese, with red people and Chinese.  EDUCATED Africans had a little play because they were "respectable".   Indians were just as alien to that world as are Amerindians today.  That is except for the few like the Luckhoos who you know had nothing to do with the Indian peasantry.

To us the Indian was that skinny person in rags, walking head down,  chasing cows and begging people to cut their grass so that they can feed it to these animals.  You don't even know an era when Indians were so humbled.

Today the private sector is Indian dominated in a way that it wasn't in the 60s,  so what really is the source of your angst?

soooo, how exactly is Guyana an "ethnic conflict state"? . . . or did u just pull that one out of your ass because it 'flowed'?

and, word to the not-so-wise, "Gramschian hegemon" is not a term that dilettantes should throw about carelessly

Buy David Hinds' book on the ethnic conflict in Guyana and his solutions proferred. He does a more elegant job of answering your question than I could.

I have zero interest in your childish personal attacks chap. Zero. That you cannot carry on a conversation without some childish ad hominen attack says more about redux than it does about your target.

i am not looking for "elegance" here, simply an answer to a simple question

i didn't ask for "solutions" or a David Hinds reading list

and, characterizing my hard questions as "personal attacks" . . . well, oh dear

  I just don't understand this pattern of behavior on the part of redux.  How does he think that he makes his point by engaging in personal attacks?  If he has a point concerning the political situation in Guyana he ought to focus on that point.

You remind me of how Creationists argue. They want you to give them a lecture on every scientific subject under the sun.

Then they digress ad nauseum on niggling points to try and distract from the big picture.

Try discoursing as an adult. You'll find it a much more enjoyable exercise.

It's why I look forward to reading Caribj's posts nevermind that we are not in agreement most of the time.

Yours I first have to decide if I even wish to condescend a response.

heh heh heh

i'd really appreciate it if you "condescend" to a discourse on the idea of Guyana Indos as a "Gramscian hegemon"

lol