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The untold story of West Indies cricket legend Alvin Kallicharran

 

By Rohan Kallicharran in an asrticle on the site http://www.cricketcountry.com

 

I was seven years old when I heard the news, and it devastated me to the core. We would not be going to Australia for Christmas to see dad because he would not be there. I wondered if he had broken his finger again, the one broken earlier in the year which caused him to miss the 1980-81 series against England. Then again, he had played today against Lancashire, so he could not have broken it.

 

Alvin Isaac Kallicharran has never written an autobiography. Now aged 62, and some two decades on from his retirement, I very much doubt that he will. It is a shame in many respects, for I suspect that it would have made good reading, and over these next few years, there are many things that I would like to discuss with him.

 

I think it was Christopher Martin-Jenkins, who once said, that it was bizarre that someone as jovial as Kalli, had been caught up in so much controversy. He was correct on both counts; dad was indeed a very jovial and likeable man, but he had found himself at the centre of a few controversial moments:

 

Being run out in bizarre circumstances by Tony Greig in Port-of-Spain in 1974, only to be reinstated to prevent a possible riot (it was mentioned ‘just a few’ times after the Ian Bell incident at Trent Bridge).

 

· Agreeing to join Kerry Packer’s World Series Cricket, then withdrawing, and captaining a sub-strength West Indies side during this period.

 

· Agreeing to play in South Africa in 1981-82, and subsequently being banned from representing the West Indies again.

 

As a seven year old, I did not understand the nuances of politics, be they in or outside the sporting arena. What I did not like is that we were no longer part of the West Indies ‘family’ – the family amongst which I had grown up. What I was numb to was the fact that the old man would, as usual, be flying out of the country in September, not to return until March, leaving me in tears at Heathrow’s Terminal 3 – an annual ritual.

 

What I did not understand was the explanation that the flight to Johannesburg would take 13 hours because we had to fly around the coast of Africa, over the Atlantic Ocean; South African Airways was banned from flying in the airspace of most African nations.

 

I did not understand why I was suddenly banned from answering the telephone at home, something that I had always done, and did not understand why there were men with cameras everywhere we looked. After all, why would newspaper men be near our house, not to mention extra security after death threats. I did not understand the utter turmoil and heartache through which my father went in first declining, and then eventually accepting a contract to spend the 1981-82 winter playing cricket for Transvaal in South Africa.

 

Of course, I did not know how let down he felt when Clive Lloyd lacked even the decency to tell him to his face that he would not be in the touring party to Australia that winter. After all, he had every opportunity to do so on that day mentioned above when Lancashire visited Edgbaston in August 1981. Moreover, Kalli had batted for a fair while, making 51 and showing Lloyd that he was in good form, despite his absence from the Warwickshire side for much of the season – surely he had a moment between overs to mention that he was dropped!

 

After 66 Test matches and close to 4,500 runs, essentially staying loyal to West Indian cricket and being captain during the Packer period, Kallicharran was being jettisoned at the age of 32. It left a bitter taste in the mouth of many, particularly the Indo-Caribbean (Asian) communities of Guyana and Trinidad.

 

Warwickshire refused Kallicharran permission to attend his father’s funeral

 

There were several opinions banded about, predominantly that the side that went to Packer had bonded as a unit, and that Kalli had become separate from that very unit. I always found that unlikely, given that many of those same players continued to spend great amounts of time at our house during the English domestic season. Ironically, Kallicharran would have gone to Packer, but for the quite abhorrent behaviour of those in charge at Warwickshire County Cricket Club at the time, who said that they would withdraw his employment, and in doing so any support for his ongoing application for British Citizenship. At that time I, at four years old, was the only British subject in the family through birth. This, for the record, is the same Warwickshire County Cricket Club, who refused my father permission to attend his father’s funeral in Guyana, despite him being injured at the time during the 1988 season.

 

The other, less likeable, but equally plausible opinion, was that senior figures within West Indian cricket wanted a side made up solely of black West Indian cricketers. It should be noted that Faoud Bacchus remained in the 1981-82 side that toured Australia, but he would be dropped after that tour, and amongst those that went to South Africa the following winter.

 

In fairness to the authorities, it must be noted that Bacchus was dropped with an average of 26 over 19 Test Matches, somewhat more palatable than the omission of Kallicharran, recognised still at that point amongst the best in the world. Of further interest is the fact that no other player of Indian origin would represent the West Indies until Shivnarine Chanderpaul in 1994.

 

I have always defended the West Indian selectors and powers that be against that accusation. So strong were the West Indies during that period that Kallicharran was, in my opinion, the only of the Indo-Caribbean players who could stake any claim to a place in that side. When all is said and done, it is my belief that the West Indies team of that era is the greatest of all time, and only the very best were ever going to break into it.

 

One also has to consider the socio-political influences of the time, especially in Guyana, home to a large Indo-Caribbean population. They felt that they were being victimised by the government, dictatorship as some saw it, of Linden Forbes Burnham. So when they suddenly had no Indians in the Test side, question and opinion was inevitable, and many believed there to be an agenda around race. The dropping of Alvin Kallicharran, however, was widely considered to be a slight to the Indian community, and I know of many who found it difficult to support the West Indies with none their own players present.

 

Fire in Babylon” has no mention of Kallicharran or Kanhai!

 

It did interest me, however, more recently, that the newly-released film, Fire In Babylon, made no mention of Kallicharran or Kanhai before him. It focused purely on the politically driven force of a black West Indian team, and the shame of those that went to South Africa. It is a film that successfully documents the brilliance of West Indian cricket during that period, but focuses on African pride. A simple celebration of ‘West Indian pride’ would to me have been more appropriate.

 

I read another article in the Jamaica Gleaner where it talks about another brilliant West Indian batsman, Lawrence Rowe, who would captain the Rebel Tourists in South Africa in 1982-83 and 1983-84. Quite frankly it saddens me that an editorial from a newspaper that once boasted the talents of Tony Becca, the doyen of cricket scribes in the Caribbean, could sink to such levels of imbalance.

 

Rowe has, during the recent Test match against India at Sabina Park, had a stand named after him. How convenient and how strange, perhaps, that he should choose this week, to apologise for going to South Africa! Why now after close to 30 years? It reeks of coercion. The bottom line is that Rowe had nothing to apologise for, neither did Kallicharran or any of the others who embarked upon that tour.

 

In the case of Kallicharran, the West Indian Cricket Board (WICB) had asked him for an apology as early as 1983, saying that he could then be selected for the side and the life ban lifted. The fact was that Kallicharran was in sublime form for that three-year period, and consistently made his point to the West Indian cricketing fraternity, destroying the likes of Malcolm Marshall and Joel Garner in the domestic game, scoring more runs in that period even than the likes of Gordon Greenidge and Viv Richards. He refused then, and I would hope that he would refuse now.

 

I take great umbrage with the statement that these men simply ‘sold out to the rand’ and that they just ‘went for money’. Do not get me wrong, I am not naive, and for each and every one of these players, money was a key aspect. However, Kallicharran was not the only player to be mistreated by West Indian cricket, and nothing seems to have changed to this day if we look at the constant wrangling of players with the WICB. The simple fact is that they had to make a living, and the West Indies was not about to provide it.

 

Were they all aware of quite how bad apartheid was? No, I do not think that they were. In fact, nobody could understand apartheid fully unless they lived it. Apartheid was odious, one of the worst abuses of civil liberty in history. Their presence did not mean that they supported it. Did they think that they could make a difference? Not necessarily, I think that financial survival and stability was the motivating reason. However, these men became heroes in the townships and more surprisingly the darlings of a white South African audience.

 

Let us make one thing clear at this point, this was NOT the same as the English or Australian rebel tours; this was quite a different matter. The Anti-apartheid campaigners saw it as more significant, as a bigger betrayal by a group of blacks. However, most of them were so focused, they did not see the hope that this group of men could bring to the townships. This is in no way to belittle the brave, selfless work of those who fought against Apartheid.

 

Again, no player in that squad was ever going to think for a minute that he could end apartheid, but many took their greatest joy in getting into the townships and coaching, and this was part of a growing momentum in South Africa. These men probably did not realise that they would be treated as outcasts in their homelands. They truly were, and for most of them, the only refuge was England.

 

Even over this, I have read so many inaccuracies over time, including one post that said that Kallicharran settled in England after the South Africa tours. Actually, we had been living here since 1972.

 

Others have said that those playing county cricket were particularly culpable for going to South Africa when they were on comfortable salaries in England. I love how ignorance and naivety is bliss. This was before the days of Sky Television, and I will happily reveal that in his final season at Warwickshire, some several years later in 1990, Alvin Kallicharran was on a basic salary of just over £11,000.

 

There are times when I wish that my father had not gone to South Africa, for I believe that he would have been soon recalled to the West Indian side, cementing his place as one of the true legends of the game.

 

However, I also saw the good that he did there. He was thrown out of a white-only burger bar in Rosebank and he received many death threats, but he still continued to engage with the Asian and Black communities. It was not just that he engaged the oppressed minority, but he was himself engaged by others who had previously not spent time with any race other than their own.

 

We always invited the black workers in our complex over for dinner. Their pride did not want handouts, it wanted change, and we were not naive enough to think that we could provide it our own, but we were determined to do our bit, and to live with common decency.

 

Through the time that we spent in South Africa, we met some of the most wonderful people who did not have a racist bone in their body. However, they did not make the rules. Certainly, no side that Kallicharran played for in South Africa would drop him because he was Asian and not black.

 

Did he go for the money? Of course he did; he had to pay the bills just like every other person in the country. Did he go purely for the money? Anyone who thinks so can have a laugh at someone else’s expense.

 

When Warwickshire were so repugnant in their behaviour, he supported his family. When West Indies treated him with the contempt, he again supported his family.

 

These men were all guilty of an element of naivety. They were all guilty of seeking the Rand. However, what they had in common were sets of circumstances brought about in several cases by the West Indian Cricket Board, and a need to put food on their tables. I genuinely think that they could all have gone to places other than South Africa, and it would have been more suitable, and certainly not had the impact on so many lives that it has.

 

If they betrayed their own people, it is something with which they have had to live for the rest of their lives. They certainly owed nothing to West Indian cricket, who have of course more recently shown that little has changed, with ongoing disputes with senior players.

 

However, what most of them did was do what was necessary to support those that they loved. For that, Rowe or any other of that team, there is no apology necessary. We all make choices, and we all live by them.

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond. My personal view is that the Rebel tours to South Africa could and should have been prevented and avoided. However, I also respect the right of individuals to make a living, especially those who have so evidently been mistreated by the authorities in their own country. I feel that this is a story which has two sides, but only one has ever been told, and that has been the motivation behind this piece of work.

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

Kari

In our lifetime Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara may be the best at batsmanship. The great Viv Richards dominated. However for the purist Alvin Kallicharran's contributions on the field may surpass the great ones. In American baseball there is a statistic for batting average in the late innings of a tied or one-run ball games. The cricket equivalent would be a batsman's score as a percentage of the team's when it staves off defeat or wins in a close game. Alvin's percentage is greater than Viv's for instance as he always comes in with WI 200 + runs for the loss of 1 wicket and the bowling already demoralised. It's easy to make double hundreds when the bowling was softened up than making 83 when the bowling gets the other 9 out for 40 runs. Think about it.

Kari
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

R
Last edited by Ramakant-P
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

I know lots of Guyanese born elsewhere who knowd from where they are located in the world. You were born in Guyana but unfortunately located in an imagined India.

 

As for racism...you are the last one who should be talking.

FM
Originally Posted by Danyael:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

I know lots of Guyanese born elsewhere who knowd from where they are located in the world. You were born in Guyana but unfortunately located in an imagined India.

 

As for racism...you are the last one who should be talking.

So you don't like to hear the truth.  I don't tell lies.  Kali wasn't all that great.

R
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

Shows he's more Guyanese than some of you here who seem to think India comes first.

cain
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

Shows he's more Guyanese than some of you here who seem to think India comes first.

If the Azores and Madeira had been better, wouldn't you think of the association?

 

Look at the fingers on your hand. They all have different lengths, but aligned to be functional.

 

Why do u expects humans to be identical in thoughts?

 

In Guyana we know Portuguese and Africans are bonded by their common euro-centric values. Why would u expect Indians to subscribe to perceived notions.

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 

S
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

Shows he's more Guyanese than some of you here who seem to think India comes first.

If the Azores and Madeira had been better, wouldn't you think of the association?

 

Look at the fingers on your hand. They all have different lengths, but aligned to be functional.

 

Why do u expects humans to be identical in thoughts?

 

In Guyana we know Portuguese and Africans are bonded by their common euro-centric values. Why would u expect Indians to subscribe to perceived notions.

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 

Look yeh! I was brought up as a Br Guianese then in turn Guyanese. The only bond we have with Portugal/Madeira (which is in better state than many) is gyalic poke.

cain
Last edited by cain
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Danyael:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

I know lots of Guyanese born elsewhere who knowd from where they are located in the world. You were born in Guyana but unfortunately located in an imagined India.

 

As for racism...you are the last one who should be talking.

So you don't like to hear the truth.  I don't tell lies.  Kali wasn't all that great.

Go read a book...Nation, Nationalism and Narration by Homi J BhaBha. You do may not tell lies but ignorance causes you to believe in false notions

FM
Originally Posted by seignet:
 

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 


What Africans and Portuguese share is a creole culture which puts the NATIONALITY as Guyanese, before their ethnicity as blacks or Portuguese.  The Portuguese do not pine for Madeira, nor do they seek out Brazilians.

 

You however deny the child of a West Indian the right to say that he is West Indian, mean time you decry Moses when he said that his primary identity is being Guyanese. 

 

You and Moses are way more distant from India than this fellow is from the West Indies.  His parents were born and raised in the Caribbean,and no doubt had an Indo Caribbean cultural identity.  I doubt even your grand parents were born in India.

 

I am 99% sure that you are NOT fluent in any of the languages of India.  You speak English, and/or some varient of Creolese, the former a European language, and the latter a West African adaptation of it.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by seignet:
 

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 


What Africans and Portuguese share is a creole culture which puts the NATIONALITY as Guyanese, before their ethnicity as blacks or Portuguese.  The Portuguese do not pine for Madeira, nor do they seek out Brazilians.

 

You however deny the child of a West Indian the right to say that he is West Indian, mean time you decry Moses when he said that his primary identity is being Guyanese. 

 

You and Moses are way more distant from India than this fellow is from the West Indies.  His parents were born and raised in the Caribbean,and no doubt had an Indo Caribbean cultural identity.  I doubt even your grand parents were born in India.

 

I am 99% sure that you are NOT fluent in any of the languages of India.  You speak English, and/or some varient of Creolese, the former a European language, and the latter a West African adaptation of it.

meh agee and meh agah came on the 1917 boat load.

 

Meh faddah is Bihari.

 

I born in Albion-coolie people country. Dey celebrate India's Independence and I was there to watch it all.

 

Suh, I am not too far removed from India. No matter how many generations we are removed, things Indians we affiliate and congregate to. 

 

We r a diverse people. And I am sure all Guyanese Indians doan care three hoots if Indians love or care for us. We Indo-Guyanese are Indians.

S
Originally Posted by Django:
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by ball:

 is gyalic poke.      And wine

Port.

 

Was garlic pork the Portuguese delicacy?

me thinks wine is Portuguese

I know cake shops used to carry the stuff. It was called Madeira Port.

 

Once I saw a movie the Pirate asked for Madeira Port. Also called Pak Pak in Guyanese lingo.

S
Last edited by seignet
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

 

Rama, overseas-born children of Guyanese are entitled to Guyana passports, making them virtually Guyanese. Top al-Qaeda man Adnan Gulshair el Shukrijumah, who was born in Saudi Arabia, had travelled on a Guyana passport because his father is a Guyanese. Rohan Kallicharran is entitled to a Guyana passport through his Guyanese parents. If he says he is West Indian first, he is on safe ground because Guyanese are West Indians.

FM
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

Shows he's more Guyanese than some of you here who seem to think India comes first.

If the Azores and Madeira had been better, wouldn't you think of the association?

 

Look at the fingers on your hand. They all have different lengths, but aligned to be functional.

 

Why do u expects humans to be identical in thoughts?

 

In Guyana we know Portuguese and Africans are bonded by their common euro-centric values. Why would u expect Indians to subscribe to perceived notions.

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 

Look yeh! I was brought up as a Br Guianese then in turn Guyanese. The only bond we have with Portugal/Madeira (which is in better state than many) is gyalic poke.

Yuh forget de Madeira wine dat Correia mek.

FM
Originally Posted by Gilbakka:

If he says he is West Indian first, he is on safe ground because Guyanese are West Indians.

So if Guyanese are South Americans/West Indians..hmmmm..

South West Indian Americans?

 

cain
Last edited by cain
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by Gilbakka:

If he says he is West Indian first, he is on safe ground because Guyanese are West Indians.

So if Guyanese are South Americans/West Indians..hmmmm..

South West Indian Americans?

 

Yuh know dat Comedian Russel Peters, he seys Guyanese are confused, dey cant decide what they are.

 

Find it and post it.

S
Last edited by seignet
Originally Posted by Danyael:
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

Shows he's more Guyanese than some of you here who seem to think India comes first.

If the Azores and Madeira had been better, wouldn't you think of the association?

 

Look at the fingers on your hand. They all have different lengths, but aligned to be functional.

 

Why do u expects humans to be identical in thoughts?

 

In Guyana we know Portuguese and Africans are bonded by their common euro-centric values. Why would u expect Indians to subscribe to perceived notions.

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 

Identity is complex and most of the time it is active  myth creation. Supposedly our psychological make up rests shared symbols and artifacts.  A sense of primordialism ie it goes back into the dark reaches of ancestral heritage clouded by time. The reality is most of us do not know past the past generation and actively manufacture reality organized around core artifacts and cherished mythology. Just examine the your identity for permanence and you will find you made up most of it.

 

You are not a vedic man but a ramayan man. You are not of a homogeneous block of india but a mishmash of some 20 cultures. Language, clothing,  cuisine, religion, style of building edifices, painting, etc are all gone or transformed over time. What remains is simply made up. You are as the rest us mainly of the western tradition and like the rest of us nationalism is mainly a fabrication.

 

Our identity is our individual mythology of our heritage. This fellow know there is something tangible called west indian that he identifies with...a place, a tradition albeit nebulous but can find an agreement with others that this sense of belonging is not fictive but a shared. It is the sentiment that they feel and it locates them in the world as a people if not tribe. In that sense nation is more than the geography that circumscribes the idea it is a narrative.

 

 

I understand what u r seying. For me, I look at it this way. I live at a time in the cosmos when geography and planetary worlds are easily accessible. Great amount of Knowledge at my finger tips through a computer keyboard. The soul that I possess is privileged and I feel it is an extension to my ancient linage. Millions of years ago I belong to a tribe and a race of people-so far I look very much like a South Indian. Living in Canada, maybe my blood would be mixed. Who knows.

 

There are times that I feel I was here before. 

S
Originally Posted by seignet:
.

 

Suh, I am not too far removed from India.  We Indo-Guyanese are Indians.

And yet your fellow Indo KKK scream that a kid, born in the UK, with TWO Caribbean born parents, is RACIST for claiming his identity as West Indian.

 

If you so wish a connection to India, maybe migration to that land might solve your problems.

FM
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

Shows he's more Guyanese than some of you here who seem to think India comes first.

If the Azores and Madeira had been better, wouldn't you think of the association?

 

Look at the fingers on your hand. They all have different lengths, but aligned to be functional.

 

Why do u expects humans to be identical in thoughts?

 

In Guyana we know Portuguese and Africans are bonded by their common euro-centric values. Why would u expect Indians to subscribe to perceived notions.

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 

Identity is complex and most of the time it is active  myth creation. Supposedly, our psychological make up rests on shared symbols and artifacts.  A sense of primordialism ie it goes back into the dark reaches of ancestral heritage clouded by time, predominates. The reality is most of us do not know our past beyond the last generation. We actively cobble together a general understanding, nost resting on nothing but ungrounded beliefs,  organized around core artifacts and cherished symbols. Most is mythology. Just examine the your identity for permanence and you will find you made up most of it.

 

You are not a vedic man but a ramayan man. You are not of a homogeneous block of india but a mishmash of some 20 cultures from a land itself a complex mixture of a 1000 distinct pepoles. Language, clothing,  cuisine, religion, style of buildings, painting, etc are all gone or transformed over time acording to how we envisioned it was in our collective imagination. What remains is mostly made up. You are as the rest us, mainly of the western tradition and like the rest of us, nationalism is mainly a fabrication.

 

Our identity is our individual mythology of our heritage. This fellow know there is something tangible called west indian that he identifies with...a place, a tradition albeit nebulous but can find an agreement with others that this sense of belonging is not fictive but a shared. It is the sentiment that they feel and it locates them in the world as a people if not tribe. In that sense nation is more than the geography that circumscribes the idea it is a narrative.

FM
Originally Posted by Gilbakka:
 

Rama, overseas-born children of Guyanese are entitled to Guyana passports, making them virtually Guyanese.


Rama thinks that this is racist, as he thinks that he is an Indian living  in Guyana, and that only blacks can claim a Guyanese/Caribbean identity.

FM
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by Danyael:
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

Shows he's more Guyanese than some of you here who seem to think India comes first.

If the Azores and Madeira had been better, wouldn't you think of the association?

 

Look at the fingers on your hand. They all have different lengths, but aligned to be functional.

 

Why do u expects humans to be identical in thoughts?

 

In Guyana we know Portuguese and Africans are bonded by their common euro-centric values. Why would u expect Indians to subscribe to perceived notions.

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 

Identity is complex and most of the time it is active  myth creation. Supposedly our psychological make up rests shared symbols and artifacts.  A sense of primordialism ie it goes back into the dark reaches of ancestral heritage clouded by time. The reality is most of us do not know past the past generation and actively manufacture reality organized around core artifacts and cherished mythology. Just examine the your identity for permanence and you will find you made up most of it.

 

You are not a vedic man but a ramayan man. You are not of a homogeneous block of india but a mishmash of some 20 cultures. Language, clothing,  cuisine, religion, style of building edifices, painting, etc are all gone or transformed over time. What remains is simply made up. You are as the rest us mainly of the western tradition and like the rest of us nationalism is mainly a fabrication.

 

Our identity is our individual mythology of our heritage. This fellow know there is something tangible called west indian that he identifies with...a place, a tradition albeit nebulous but can find an agreement with others that this sense of belonging is not fictive but a shared. It is the sentiment that they feel and it locates them in the world as a people if not tribe. In that sense nation is more than the geography that circumscribes the idea it is a narrative.

 

 

I understand what u r seying. For me, I look at it this way. I live at a time in the cosmos when geography and planetary worlds are easily accessible. Great amount of Knowledge at my finger tips through a computer keyboard. The soul that I possess is privileged and I feel it is an extension to my ancient linage. Millions of years ago I belong to a tribe and a race of people-so far I look very much like a South Indian. Living in Canada, maybe my blood would be mixed. Who knows.

 

There are times that I feel I was here before. 

In reality the traditions insists that all is Maya. Ghandi's oft quoted affinity for  The Mundaka Upanishad relates the story of the imaginary snake. We cannot help being deluded. You speak of your soul but there is no soul! What is jiva is atma is Brahma and Brahma is, as another Upanishad warns...not fathomable by our minds! Modern man is hardly a 100K years old. Millions of years ago...we were barely distinguishable  from Simians.

FM
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

Wasn't Kallicharran at times discriminated against by the WICBC?

FM

Kali is a legend, but he should not have gone to South Africa under apartheid. I hope he is doing well financially because it is a shame to see these stalwarts being poor/average in old age. 

FM
Originally Posted by VVP:

Kali is a legend, but he should not have gone to South Africa under apartheid. I hope he is doing well financially because it is a shame to see these stalwarts being poor/average in old age. 


There are reports that some of the West Indian players who went are now destitute, some not even alive.  So if Kalli was discriminated against, he was not the only one.

FM
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by VVP:

Kali is a legend, but he should not have gone to South Africa under apartheid. I hope he is doing well financially because it is a shame to see these stalwarts being poor/average in old age. 


There are reports that some of the West Indian players who went are now destitute, some not even alive.  So if Kalli was discriminated against, he was not the only one.

I know.  I think Rowe was sidelined also.

FM
Originally Posted by ksazma:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

Wasn't Kallicharran at times discriminated against by the WICBC?

what exactly do you mean by "discriminated against"?

FM
Originally Posted by VVP:
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by VVP:

Kali is a legend, but he should not have gone to South Africa under apartheid. I hope he is doing well financially because it is a shame to see these stalwarts being poor/average in old age. 


There are reports that some of the West Indian players who went are now destitute, some not even alive.  So if Kalli was discriminated against, he was not the only one.

I know.  I think Rowe was sidelined also.


He might have been the one who they say virtually died of self inflicted bad behavior arising from his poverty and being ostracized.

FM
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by seignet:
.

 

Suh, I am not too far removed from India.  We Indo-Guyanese are Indians.

And yet your fellow Indo KKK scream that a kid, born in the UK, with TWO Caribbean born parents, is RACIST for claiming his identity as West Indian.

 

If you so wish a connection to India, maybe migration to that land might solve your problems.

I haven't lived in Guyana for 47 years. Though I am a very frequent visitor.

S
Originally Posted by Danyael:
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by Danyael:
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

Shows he's more Guyanese than some of you here who seem to think India comes first.

If the Azores and Madeira had been better, wouldn't you think of the association?

 

Look at the fingers on your hand. They all have different lengths, but aligned to be functional.

 

Why do u expects humans to be identical in thoughts?

 

In Guyana we know Portuguese and Africans are bonded by their common euro-centric values. Why would u expect Indians to subscribe to perceived notions.

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 

Identity is complex and most of the time it is active  myth creation. Supposedly our psychological make up rests shared symbols and artifacts.  A sense of primordialism ie it goes back into the dark reaches of ancestral heritage clouded by time. The reality is most of us do not know past the past generation and actively manufacture reality organized around core artifacts and cherished mythology. Just examine the your identity for permanence and you will find you made up most of it.

 

You are not a vedic man but a ramayan man. You are not of a homogeneous block of india but a mishmash of some 20 cultures. Language, clothing,  cuisine, religion, style of building edifices, painting, etc are all gone or transformed over time. What remains is simply made up. You are as the rest us mainly of the western tradition and like the rest of us nationalism is mainly a fabrication.

 

Our identity is our individual mythology of our heritage. This fellow know there is something tangible called west indian that he identifies with...a place, a tradition albeit nebulous but can find an agreement with others that this sense of belonging is not fictive but a shared. It is the sentiment that they feel and it locates them in the world as a people if not tribe. In that sense nation is more than the geography that circumscribes the idea it is a narrative.

 

 

I understand what u r seying. For me, I look at it this way. I live at a time in the cosmos when geography and planetary worlds are easily accessible. Great amount of Knowledge at my finger tips through a computer keyboard. The soul that I possess is privileged and I feel it is an extension to my ancient linage. Millions of years ago I belong to a tribe and a race of people-so far I look very much like a South Indian. Living in Canada, maybe my blood would be mixed. Who knows.

 

There are times that I feel I was here before. 

In reality the traditions insists that all is Maya. Ghandi's oft quoted affinity for  The Mundaka Upanishad relates the story of the imaginary snake. We cannot help being deluded. You speak of your soul but there is no soul! What is jiva is atma is Brahma and Brahma is, as another Upanishad warns...not fathomable by our minds! Modern man is hardly a 100K years old. Millions of years ago...we were barely distinguishable  from Simians.

Well, my Holy Book tells me, mankind came with intelligence. Dem beings we see from time to time as progression of monkeys was simply Lucifer trying make a man. Book of Enoch tells of his mischief.

S
Originally Posted by VVP:
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by VVP:

Kali is a legend, but he should not have gone to South Africa under apartheid. I hope he is doing well financially because it is a shame to see these stalwarts being poor/average in old age. 


There are reports that some of the West Indian players who went are now destitute, some not even alive.  So if Kalli was discriminated against, he was not the only one.

I know.  I think Rowe was sidelined also.

Forbes dominated the Caribbean. Considered to be really bright he controlled everything, cricket he even dominated.

S

"Of course, I did not know how let down he felt when Clive Lloyd lacked even the decency to tell him to his face that he would not be in the touring party to Australia that winter."

 

 

"

One also has to consider the socio-political influences of the time, especially in Guyana, home to a large Indo-Caribbean population. They felt that they were being victimised by the government, dictatorship as some saw it, of Linden Forbes Burnham. So when they suddenly had no Indians in the Test side, question and opinion was inevitable, and many believed there to be an agenda around race."

 


"It did interest me, however, more recently, that the newly-released film, Fire In Babylon, made no mention of Kallicharran or Kanhai before him. It focused purely on the politically driven force of a black West Indian team, and the shame of those that went to South Africa. It is a film that successfully documents the brilliance of West Indian cricket during that period, but focuses on African pride. A simple celebration of ‘West Indian pride’ would to me have been more appropriate"

 

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by Danyael:
Originally Posted by seignet:
Originally Posted by cain:
Originally Posted by Ramakant-P:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Nehru and company might find this interesting by Kalli's son:

 

As a writer, I should make it clear that I am West Indian first and above all. Whether I am of Asian or African heritage means nothing to me. My source of power and pride is that of being a West Indian, a small group of nations that has achieved so much success in the sporting arena and beyond.

How can he be west Indian first when he was born in England?

 

His tone of voice reeks with regrets and racism.

Shows he's more Guyanese than some of you here who seem to think India comes first.

If the Azores and Madeira had been better, wouldn't you think of the association?

 

Look at the fingers on your hand. They all have different lengths, but aligned to be functional.

 

Why do u expects humans to be identical in thoughts?

 

In Guyana we know Portuguese and Africans are bonded by their common euro-centric values. Why would u expect Indians to subscribe to perceived notions.

Are we racist because we doan have the same values?

Are we racists because we find something of value with India?

 

 

 

 

 

Identity is complex and most of the time it is active  myth creation. Supposedly our psychological make up rests shared symbols and artifacts.  A sense of primordialism ie it goes back into the dark reaches of ancestral heritage clouded by time. The reality is most of us do not know past the past generation and actively manufacture reality organized around core artifacts and cherished mythology. Just examine the your identity for permanence and you will find you made up most of it.

 

You are not a vedic man but a ramayan man. You are not of a homogeneous block of india but a mishmash of some 20 cultures. Language, clothing,  cuisine, religion, style of building edifices, painting, etc are all gone or transformed over time. What remains is simply made up. You are as the rest us mainly of the western tradition and like the rest of us nationalism is mainly a fabrication.

 

Our identity is our individual mythology of our heritage. This fellow know there is something tangible called west indian that he identifies with...a place, a tradition albeit nebulous but can find an agreement with others that this sense of belonging is not fictive but a shared. It is the sentiment that they feel and it locates them in the world as a people if not tribe. In that sense nation is more than the geography that circumscribes the idea it is a narrative.

 

 

I understand what u r seying. For me, I look at it this way. I live at a time in the cosmos when geography and planetary worlds are easily accessible. Great amount of Knowledge at my finger tips through a computer keyboard. The soul that I possess is privileged and I feel it is an extension to my ancient linage. Millions of years ago I belong to a tribe and a race of people-so far I look very much like a South Indian. Living in Canada, maybe my blood would be mixed. Who knows.

 

There are times that I feel I was here before. 

Dat sounds like Peyote kickin in.

cain
Originally Posted by yuji22:

"Of course, I did not know how let down he felt when Clive Lloyd lacked even the decency to tell him to his face that he would not be in the touring party to Australia that winter."

 

 

"

One also has to consider the socio-political influences of the time, especially in Guyana, home to a large Indo-Caribbean population. They felt that they were being victimised by the government, dictatorship as some saw it, of Linden Forbes Burnham. So when they suddenly had no Indians in the Test side, question and opinion was inevitable, and many believed there to be an agenda around race."

 


"It did interest me, however, more recently, that the newly-released film, Fire In Babylon, made no mention of Kallicharran or Kanhai before him. It focused purely on the politically driven force of a black West Indian team, and the shame of those that went to South Africa. It is a film that successfully documents the brilliance of West Indian cricket during that period, but focuses on African pride. A simple celebration of ‘West Indian pride’ would to me have been more appropriate"

 

 

You're as predictable as a clock, star. In that long article I knew you would see only the above passages.

FM

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