This is real and as stated earlier the PPP mishandled this threat terribly. Effects are long reaching and will continue to affect Guyana and Guyanese for a long time to come.

cAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THE gOVT MISHANDLED THESE THREATS????????????

quote:

Originally posted by Horse Man:
This is real and as stated earlier the PPP mishandled this threat terribly. Effects are long reaching and will continue to affect Guyana and Guyanese for a long time to come.

quote:

Originally posted by Nehru:
cAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THE gOVT MISHANDLED THESE THREATS????????????

Don't pander to his/her's diversionary tactic. The core issue here is that this cable confirms what many in Guyana knew and have been saying. There was an organised group of criminals which were recruited and trained by persons connected to the opposition which sought to create mayhem in Guyana as a means of forcing the elected PPP/C government out of office or "creating a constitutional crisis" as they said.

I have explained this several times before the PPP mishandled dealing with the threat from the PNC by engaging with Roger Khan's outfit.

The US govt gave specific assistance to GOG and referred them to Security companies approved and also used by the USG.

Instead the PPP did not have the where withal to understand what they were being told, they felt they were given the brush off and thus enlisted the services of several unscrupulous individuals many of whom they underestimated.

The situation rapidly got out of control and in these same wikileaks documents we see that RK had taped details on many high officials within the PPP. As a result - Black mail.

S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 03 GEORGETOWN 000137

SIPDIS

DS/IP/WHA
DS/ER/CC
DS/IP/FPO
WHA/CAR
WHA/EX
S/CRS
BRIDGETOWN ALSO FOR ORA
CARACAS ALSO FOR LEGATT
PORT OF SPAIN ALSO FOR DEA, LEGATT, AND ORA

E.O. 12958: DNG: CO 02/08/2016
TAGS: ASEC PTER PGOV PREL SNAR GY
SUBJECT: DEATH THREAT AGAINST U.S. AMBASSADOR AND PROMINENT
GUYANESE

REF: GEORGETOWN 111

Classified By: DCM Michael D. Thomas for reason 1.4 (d)

¶1. (S) Ambassador met with Major General (ret.) Norman McLean
on February 8 at McLean's request. At the meeting, McLean
handed Ambassador a sheet of paper listing information he had
received from a policeman who has access to the Buxton area.
This paper described a discussion regarding an operation to
kill high profile people in retaliation for the murder of
Ronald Waddell (reftel). Ambassador's name was one of
thirteen names listed. This paper described a discussion
that reportedly occurred February 4 after Waddell's funeral
procession. According to press reports and McLean's
information, when the funeral procession reached Buxton, some
members of the crowd removed Waddell's body from the casket,
told police, the media, and other members of the procession
to wait while they paraded through an area known as "the
Gulf", where persons in black masks carrying AK-47s fired
shots into the air as a final salute to the man who had
praised the vigilante "Buxton resistance".

¶2. (S) It is difficult to evaluate the credibility of this
threat. However, McLean is a serious and experienced
security professional. McLean said his source offered to
obtain further information, but McLean advised him not to.
McLean said he brought the matter to Ambassador's attention
because he believes the source is credible and he believes
that retaliation for the Waddell murder is inevitable.

¶3. (S) Post is taking the following actions to improve
Ambassador's security.
-- A/RSO detailed to Ambassador's existing Police Protective
Detail when Ambassador traveling out of home or office.
-- RSO will re-brief Ambassador's Protective Detail and
Drivers on principles of protection.
-- Ambassador and Ambassador's driver will increase variation
in routes and times of Ambassador's travel.
-- One SD team (two members) will be dedicated to the
Ambassador.
-- RSO will ask Commissioner of Police to detail an armed
Police Officer of the Special Response Team to the EMR.
-- Motor pool will vary armored vehicle used to transport
Ambassador rather than using one vehicle constantly.

¶4. (S) Text of note follows. Begin quote:

INFORMATION RECEIVED

After the funeral of Waddell on Saturday, it seems that
elements associated with the group had a discussion on some
form of retaliation. The two-for-one ratio was expanded on
this occasion for more high profile targets. The following
were identified as possible targets but Odinga Lumumba is
felt to be top of the list.

Odinga Lumumba - High Profile target seen as an organizer
Sita Ramlal - too powerful and dismissing black people
Norman McLean - Association with the above and wanted
badly for crossing over to PPP
Chief Justice Carl Singh - High Profile target
Donald Ramotar - As above
Roger Luncheon - As above and a sell out of black people
Steve Surujbali - High Profile target

Juror in Mark Benschop Case - for obvious reasons

Roger Khan) - Association or control
Ricardo) of Phantom groups

Brian Tiwari - High Profile Indian
Khursid Sattaur - Government Official and High profile
Indian

Roland Bullen - US Ambassador lending support to
Government

It is understood that reconnaissance has started in several
areas e.g., Bel Air where there is a Phantom House and where
SR lives. Hits could start on the anniversary of the
jailbreak around Mash time. The scenarios could be Hits
direct and by staged vehicle accidents.
Purpose to cause chaos and confusion, disrupt the likelihood
of investment and frustrate the upcoming Elections and
improve chances of a Constitutional crisis. It is understood
further that an operative named Rawlins aka &Fine Man,8
Oliver Hinckson, Godwin McPherson and others, are
orchestrating these actions.

End Quote.

¶5. (SBU) A copy of the note as been e-mailed to WHA/CAR Laura
Luftig.

Post Bio notes on persons named as targets:
------------------------------------------

¶6. (S) Odinga Lumumba: Strong man for the former PNC
government. Followed ex-Prime Minister Hamilton Green to the
GGG when the PNC expelled Green then moved to the PPP.
Currently Coordinator of the President's Youth Choice
Initiative, Presidential Advisor on Empowerment PPP Member of
Parliament, President of the Guyana Football League, central
figure in a wildlife export scandal, frequently seen clubbing
with President Jagdeo and popularly rumored to procure women
for the President.

¶7. (SBU) Sita Ramlal: Registrar of the Supreme Court and
Norman McLean's girlfriend.

¶8. (SBU) Norman McLean: Served as both Commissioner of Police
and Chief of Staff of the Guyana Defense Force during the
Burnham years. Since the early 1990s McLean has been Human
Resources Manager of Omai Gold Mines, a subsidiary of
Canada's Cambior Inc. A fixture in the business community,
McLean has occupied a number of positions including President
of the Guyana Manufactures Association, member of the
Security Sub-Committee of the Local Organizing Committee for
the 2007 Cricket World Cup, Deputy Chairman of the Ethnic
Relations Commission. Most pertinent to the matter at hand,
McLean served as a member of the Presidential Commission of
Inquiry that incredibly cleared former Minister of Home
Affairs Gajraj of involvement in extra-judicial killings by
the Phantom Squad.

¶9. (C) Carl Singh: Chief Justice of the High Court, Acting
Chancellor of the Judiciary, active in efforts to streamline
administration of justice and reduce judicial corruption, and
widely perceived to be partial to the PPP Government.

¶10. (SBU) Juror in Mark Benschop Case: the only one of ten
jurors who voted to convict Benschop for treason after he led
a crowd storming the Office of the President in 2002.
Popular opinion believes the juror was suborned by the
PPP/government to vote guilty.

¶11. (U) Donald Ramotar: General Secretary of the People's
Progressive Party, Member of Parliament.

¶12. (S) Roger Luncheon: Head of the Presidential Secretariat
and second ranking member of Cabinet after the Prime
Minister. Commonly referred to as "Machiavelli" by the
Diplomatic Corps. Commissioner of Police Felix says Luncheon
ordered him to say that the arrest of drug-kingpin and
Phantom Squad member Roger Khan at a Guyana Defense Force
roadblock in an armored vehicle with high-tech cell phone
intercept equipment and automatic weaponry was a mistake
because it was a police operation (Felix refused).

¶13. (SBU) Steve Surujballi: Chairman of the Guyana Elections
Commission, veterinarian, former director of the National
Dairy Development Program, former member of the Working
People's Alliance.

¶14. (U) Roger Khan: Guyana's number one narco-trafficker and
a member of the Phantom Squad used by GoG in 2003-2004 to
reign in an out-of-control crime situation. Widely rumored
to be responsible for the execution-style murder of Ronald
Waddell.

¶15. (SBU) Brian Tiwari: Managing Director of engineering firm
B.K. International Contractors that wins many government
contracts. Locally referred to as one of the "untouchables"
because his firm continues to get government contracts
despite poor performance.

¶16. (SBU) Khursid Sattaur: Commissioner General of Guyana
Revenue Authority. Disliked by nearly everyone who has any
contact with the GRA.

Bio Notes on purported perpetrators:
-----------------------------------
¶17. (SBU) Rawlins aka "Fine Man": A gang member resident in
Buxton. Reportedly the target of a 2005 Roger Khan-led
execution attempt that mistakenly killed a young boy in
Buxton.

¶18. (SBU) Oliver Hinckson: According to McLean, a former GDF
lieutenant. Now associated with the COPS Security Service.

¶19. (C) Godwin McPherson: Former number two in the Guyana
Defense Force with the rank of Colonel was cashiered from the
GDF in 1996 and prosecuted for multiple charges of theft and
embezzlement totaling nearly US$2 million. Currently serves
as PNC Representative on the National Sports Commission Board
and President of the Guyana Amateur Basketball Federation.
Now employed as Physical Education Coordinator at the
Ministry of Education. Served as Chief Elections Officer for
the April 2005 Guyana Public Service Union elections that
were marred by accusations of irregularities in counting the
ballots.

BULLEN

Good God, doesn't the citizens wish to escape all of this and have a new start. Cursed we are since 1950.

Whats interesting is how two of Burnham's strong man operatives, McLean and Lumumba are in tight with Jagdeo, yet he will scream about Granger. The two were much worse than Granger.

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:
Whats interesting is how two of Burnham's strong man operatives, McLean and Lumumba are in tight with Jagdeo, yet he will scream about Granger. The two were much worse than Granger.

His excellency is allowed to choose the devils he wishes to dine.

quote:

Originally posted by Horse Man:

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:
Whats interesting is how two of Burnham's strong man operatives, McLean and Lumumba are in tight with Jagdeo, yet he will scream about Granger. The two were much worse than Granger.

His excellency is allowed to choose the devils he wishes to dine.

Yes his "Excellency" does have a right to chose. If he consistently dines with devils theh he is one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:

quote:

Originally posted by Horse Man:

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:
Whats interesting is how two of Burnham's strong man operatives, McLean and Lumumba are in tight with Jagdeo, yet he will scream about Granger. The two were much worse than Granger.

His excellency is allowed to choose the devils he wishes to dine.

Yes his "Excellency" does have a right to chose. If he consistently dines with devils theh he is one of them.

Not necessarily, he can dine with them to ensure that they are being obedient.

quote:

Originally posted by Horse Man:

Not necessarily, he can dine with them to ensure that they are being obedient.

It gets back to the point. When asked about the numbers of AfroGuaynese in leadership opositions the token Lunchen cant help the PPP. he exposes them by saying nothing.

Yet Jagdeo scrambles to offer Lumumba waht he doesnt deserve. Ditto McLean. Ditto McCoy. Ditto Greene.

He likes black criminals, especially if they did the same thing for Burnham.

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:

quote:

Originally posted by Horse Man:

Not necessarily, he can dine with them to ensure that they are being obedient.

It gets back to the point. When asked about the numbers of AfroGuaynese in leadership opositions the token Lunchen cant help the PPP. he exposes them by saying nothing.

Yet Jagdeo scrambles to offer Lumumba waht he doesnt deserve. Ditto McLean. Ditto McCoy. Ditto Greene.

He likes black criminals, especially if they did the same thing for Burnham.

I disagree with you on this they are not tokens they may have been tokenized but they are not tokens.

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:


He likes black criminals, especially if they did the same thing for Burnham.

Jagdeo will have no problem embracing you.

quote:

Originally posted by Mitwah:

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:


He likes black criminals, especially if they did the same thing for Burnham.

Jagdeo will have no problem embracing you.

quote:

The scenarios could be Hits direct and by staged vehicle accidents. Purpose to cause chaos and confusion, disrupt the likelihood of investment and frustrate the upcoming Elections and improve chances of a Constitutional crisis.

It is understood further that an operative named Rawlins also known as Fine Man, a former army officer and now late Deputy Chief of Staff, Godwin McPherson and others, are orchestrating these actions."

"Slow fyah moh fyah"...well maybe Hoyte got it wrong. Them fellas wanted a fast burning fyah.

This is more than sufficient proof that some of the X-13 Architects and others may still be around today...

I think the embassy was being kind to the PNC...they did not report on what most people knew to be a fact. The PNC was part of the plan with the radical groups to remove the PPP.

quote:

Originally posted by DND:
I think the embassy was being kind to the PNC...they did not report on what most people knew to be a fact. The PNC was part of the plan with the radical groups to remove the PPP.

I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by DND:
I think the embassy was being kind to the PNC...they did not report on what most people knew to be a fact. The PNC was part of the plan with the radical groups to remove the PPP.

I think like the PPP that it's all BULLSHYTE....we gat moo important thing to worry about.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:

quote:

Originally posted by DND:
I think the embassy was being kind to the PNC...they did not report on what most people knew to be a fact. The PNC was part of the plan with the radical groups to remove the PPP.

I agree.

I don't believe this. There may have been PNC personnel involved with the FF. But not the official party, just as one can claim that the official PPP party is not involved with drug trafficking and money laundering, just some key persons!

quote:

Originally posted by Horse Man:
I have explained this several times before the PPP mishandled dealing with the threat from the PNC by engaging with Roger Khan's outfit.

The US govt gave specific assistance to GOG and referred them to Security companies approved and also used by the USG.

Instead the PPP did not have the where withal to understand what they were being told, they felt they were given the brush off and thus enlisted the services of several unscrupulous individuals many of whom they underestimated.

The situation rapidly got out of control and in these same wikileaks documents we see that RK had taped details on many high officials within the PPP. As a result - Black mail.

With a pro PNC police and gdf, the business community had no option but to solicit rk and his army of ex police to clean up the ff's. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. It was not the PPP who controlled RK, it was the rich businessmen who stepped in. So in fact the PPP did nothing while the nation suffered.

In any functioning normal democracy, these revelations would have seen the passage of a no confidence motion passed, and a credible government of itself anyway would have gone to the people by way of elections, once these revelations became public.

quote:

it was the rich businessmen who stepped in.

And that too was a popular rumor. Funny the embassy guys never heard that one but almost all the business people were privy to it.

One business guy told me that powerful business man put the phantoms together and sent a message that the GoG should stay out of the way. At the end of the day it was pure capitalism that was the main motivator. The businessmen were losing too much money.

quote:

Originally posted by squingy:
In any functioning normal democracy, these revelations would have seen the passage of a no confidence motion passed, and a credible government of itself anyway would have gone to the people by way of elections, once these revelations became public.

I agree with that. There is so much at stake now.

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

it was the rich businessmen who stepped in.

And that too was a popular rumor. Funny the embassy guys never heard that one but almost all the business people were privy to it.

One business guy told me that powerful business man put the phantoms together and sent a message that the GoG should stay out of the way. At the end of the day it was pure capitalism that was the main motivator. The businessmen were losing too much money.

It was pure mayhem during that time, DND. And I have heard of businessmen involved out of self interest too. However, this in no way negates the facts of Roger Khan's involvement with the GoG. I remain as unconvinced as ever, that all other avenues were explored first.

And like you, I lay blame on the PPP for not having engaged in any meaningful security reform - though I understood Dr Jagan's point of view, I did not agree with it. And Ramjattan was hauled before a Freedom House disciplinary committee in 1993 for his paper that demanded immediate reform.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerhard Ramsaroop:

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

it was the rich businessmen who stepped in.

And that too was a popular rumor. Funny the embassy guys never heard that one but almost all the business people were privy to it.

One business guy told me that powerful business man put the phantoms together and sent a message that the GoG should stay out of the way. At the end of the day it was pure capitalism that was the main motivator. The businessmen were losing too much money.

It was pure mayhem during that time, DND. And I have heard of businessmen involved out of self interest too. However, this in no way negates the facts of Roger Khan's involvement with the GoG. I remain as unconvinced as ever, that all other avenues were explored first.

And like you, I lay blame on the PPP for not having engaged in any meaningful security reform - though I understood Dr Jagan's point of view, I did not agree with it. And Ramjattan was hauled before a Freedom House disciplinary committee in 1993 for his paper that demanded immediate reform.

RK was a tool. In American history the Sheriff would deputize the bad guys when he could not control what was happening in town. Actually, look at history world wide and you will find that when the State is under threat they will resort to unconventional strategies to protect the state.

As unpopular as this statement is, Rk served the interest of the people of Guyana when he took on the PNC gangs.

Clint taranted....make my day.

quote:

Originally posted by DND: RK was a tool. In American history the Sheriff would deputize the bad guys when he could not control what was happening in town. Actually, look at history world wide and you will find that when the State is under threat they will resort to unconventional strategies to protect the state.

As unpopular as this statement is, Rk served the interest of the people of Guyana when he took on the PNC gangs.

No intention to fight you, DND, but I strongly disagree. Like I said before, I remain unconvinced that the PPP explored all options before engaging Roger Khan. It could not have been lost on them either the repercussions of such a move, one that has set fire to ethnic tensions once more. In fact, that is how they won the election in 2006 by a majority - the AFC lost a lot of support when we took the principled stand against Roger Khan. It was just wrong to engage a criminal, DND.

Remember too, this was just not a person pulled from thin air, there were business connections to the Government as well, pointing even more to the shadiness of the whole thing. However, once people feel there was no other option left to the PPP, it would appear to be right, and this was where my dad and I went up the road. He saw it in the context of the 60s where outside help was not an option. Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this.

quote:

Godwin McPherson

What amazes me is that this Godwin McPherson sat next to Dr.Jagan many times at several meetings. On one New Year's eve Dr. Jagan even danced with his wife at the Army's New Year's eve party. We never know what really is in people minds.

quote:

Originally posted by cain:
Clint taranted....make my day.

Yeah, Roger Khan took on an Eastwood role and cleaned the town of all the imminent threats, that were looming........reasons why he will be a hero, in the eyes of the majority of Guyanese.

.

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

it was the rich businessmen who stepped in.

And that too was a popular rumor. Funny the embassy guys never heard that one but almost all the business people were privy to it.

One business guy told me that powerful business man put the phantoms together and sent a message that the GoG should stay out of the way. At the end of the day it was pure capitalism that was the main motivator. The businessmen were losing too much money.

I seriously doubt that RK needed other "businessmen" to conceptualize and fund his phantom death squad(s); Gaje's phantoms (and others??) . . ., more likely.

A lot of lazy thinking on this BB.

quote:

Originally posted by squingy:

I don't believe this. There may have been PNC personnel involved with the FF. But not the official party

Transcript of Alleged Conversation between PNCR Vice Chairman and Commissioner of Police

Kaieteur News presents the following transcript of the content of an audio disc that was
anonymously distributed to the media and allegedly records a conversation between Police
Commissioner Winston Felix and PNCR Vice Chairman and Member of Parliament, Basil Williams.
The newspaper decided to publish this transcript after careful consideration of the sensitive issues
involved and having obtained the go-ahead from its lawyers.
The contents of the recording have already been widely publicised in the electronic media, and
Kaieteur News would like its readers to have the same opportunity to examine the contents and
make informed conclusions on the matter.
Voice 1 is purportedly that of Basil Williams, while Voice 2 is supposedly that of the Commissioner of
Police.


Voice 1: Wha goin on?
Voice 2: I deh.
Voice 1: I just settle a matter with Glenn Lall wheh the Magistrate sue he fuh libel.
Voice 2: Which Magistrate?
Voice 1: Holder-Allen.
Voice 2: Dey settle it?
Voice 1: Uh huh!
Voice 2: Fuh how much?
Voice 1: Just about a hundred thou.
Voice 2 : (laugh) …(cough)… I thought y'all would'a seh a hundred million.
Voice 1: Nah.
Voice 2: Oh you settle it?
Voice 1: Uh huh. But he told me, am, how some police call him and tell him to publish how I had
some problem de night deh. I had some gun story de night.
Voice 2: (pause) He tell you some police call he and tell he publish duh?
Voice 1: Eh heh.
Voice 2: Well leh he publish nah.
2
Voice 1: But he seh he ain't tek dem on…so I suppose he come to court and see me doin de matter.
Voice 2 : Uh hmm. Uh hmm. He pull he self together.
Voice 1 : But who police could a do dah, boy?
Voice 2: Boy, he paying a lot of people, and a lot ah people know dat he tekking stories from
anyway, right, and am dey usually get into dis lawlessness.
Voice 1 : But wha angle could he take, boy? I turn up deh.
Voice 2: Banna, is anything dem people tekkin and write, police get a five, six thousand dollar and
dey feel nice.
Voice 1laugh) Cause if he de publish dah now, he de force me now fuh respond. You understand
wha ah mean?
Voice 2 : Uh hmm.
Voice 1 : Anyway, me ain't gat time with dah. You get chance fuh deal with dah matter?
Voice 2 : Which one?
Voice 1: Dat same thing about...
Voice 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we am, we talk about it, we…
Voice 1: Dese public thing?
Voice 2: Uh hmm. We talk about it and am, we gon refine our position about it. But cricket World
Cup, you ain't gat nothing you can go in with. You can't go in with yuh gun period.
Voice 1: muffled… license or unlicensed?
Voice 2: Licensed or unlicensed, you can't carry any firearm in there.
Voice 1: We gat am…one of our studies at de thing was cricket World Cup, you know.
Voice 2: Okay.
Voice 1: De threats and stuff like duh.
Voice 2: Uh hmm.
Voice 1: Uh hmm (pause) I get it, our group…(muffled)
Voice 2: Who?
Voice 1: Our group had made a good presentation.
Voice 2: Okay.
Voice 1 :… de different threats and thing you gah look for and general objective and strategy fuh
deal with dem. Yeah. Anyway I see you busy; number one seh he had to call you or something.
3
Voice 2: Whey he deh?
Voice 1: Me ain't know if he geh you. I tell he...
Voice 2: He come back?
Voice 1: Yeah, I told him yuh might, yuh sey you might need to talk to he.
Voice 2: Uh hmm, if I did know that I woulda set up something tonight; I ain't know he come back.
Voice 1: Yeah, he say he wanted to talk to you to see wah…(muffled)
Voice 2: He run away when all this gun play teking place?
Voice 1: (Laugh) he...(muffled)…(laugh)
Voice 2: Yuh laugh eh?
Voice 1: (Laugh)
Voice 2: (Muffled)… watch the move good, but yuh all ain't mek no statement about them eight
people wa dead you know.
Voice 1: I did saying the same thing.
Voice 2: Yuh all aint mek no statement.
Voice 1: I did saying the same thing, they aint mek no statement deh.
Voice 1 : but, am…
Voice 2: Yuh all playing dangerous games.
Voice 1: No, I don't check pun da PR thing, but ah gon gaffa find out from them in the morning.
Voice 2: You all shoulda been the fus people fuh run in deh. That is a Black people community.
Voice 1: Well, boy…
Voice 2: And them criminals gone and slaughter them people in deh.
Voice 1: Well, I suppose when deh need them men nobody ain't running out (pause) you know how
it go…and…
Voice 2: Yuh all should a been fuh de fust set a people…
Voice 1: And yuh ain't get the facts about wha going on.
Voice 2: People screaming…(muffled)…yuh aint want facts, is you people dead.
Voice 1: I mean, is you help me out when you seh is Ashmin them.
4
Voice 2: Eh?
Voice 1: You help, well, you give…
Voice 2: Banna banna, I …
Voice 1: You give me information.
Voice 2: I, eh eh, (cough) I, I deliberately…
Voice 1: I know.
Voice 2: I, I deliberately turn the thing away…
Voice 1: I know.
Voice 2 : From it…(muffled)
Voice 1: I know.
Voice 2: But now I can't do duh because the facts coming out.
Voice 1: Uh hmm.
Voice 2: So, but on in the interim, in the initial stages I…(muffled), I made a firm decision that me
ain't saying nothing, but them people, I turning them away.
Voice 1: Uh hmm, I realise duh.
Voice 2: Is just dem f……g putagee and, and f…..g people want kill me because I seh I satisfy with
the response and I still satisfy with it. MMC…
Voice 1: Deh ain't want pay nobody, they ain't want…
Voice 2: MMC.
Voice 1: They aint want...(muffled)
Voice 2: But hear this man, MMC security as I understand it, the… (muffled)…button go off deh
quarter past ten, right? The police reach deh in less, in, in under half an hour, right?
Voice 1: Uh hmm.
Voice 2: The police decide that the officer seh hey, yuh all hold down, we going deh as one group,
you don't rush into nothing, before, before, people get slaughter and all sort ah thing, but like duh
is what these people want, they want…(muffled)…they want police run into the midst of gun fire.
Voice 1: MMC men guh though and, and, aint get slaughter.
Voice 2: Well dey bin deh.
Voice 1: Oh, they didn't respond?
Voice 2: No, they didn't respond, they been fuh air.
5
Voice 1: Oh s..t boy, that thing was rough though. boy. That was a rough day, skites. I mean you
shooting a passing minibus and all them thing.
Voice 2: I gun deal, I, I waiting fuh Normal McLean and Jerry Gouveia them seh deh coming fuh tell
me s…t …
Voice 1: (laugh)
I hear, I hear, I hear dey release some ah, some am, something in the paper coming out tomorrow.
Voice 1: Uh hmm.
Voice 2: Yea, and if you know how I hear about this thing, duh is why I am emphatic bout them
men, you can't blame them too much, right?
Voice 1: Uh umm.
Voice 2: The Minister call me, I, I didn't record the time, the minister say hear, look, somebody call
her to say look, they hearing gunfire in Eccles, if I get a report. I say Minister, I ain't get nothing
yet, but when I finish talking to you I will check it out, look.
Voice 1: Ummm.
Voice 2: I call Brickdam, Brickdam say yes, we just get something and we tell this officer and the
officer gone, the officer gone to the scene. The officer stop at Ruimveldt, the officer summon all
them other patrols wah been, duh is he manpower he get to…(muffle)… thing the scene.
Voice 1: Umm.
Voice 2: That is a big story.
Voice 1: Uh hmm.
Voice 2: I call TSU, when I call TSU, TSU men now joining the vehicle to, to go out because, one set
a people hear de thing on the radio and call them and tell them. So I want know wuh these F…..g
people want. Like they want fifteen police guh and dead…(muffled)…
Voice 1: The reality ah de thing is them police banna ain't going no way whether you send them or
not.
Voice 2: But hear banna, hear, hear, hear, banna, I'm saying that was not the case, I check on duh.
Normally when them men hesitate to respond to anything, I would know; the word does come up
the line, look, dem men didn't want go to da scene last night, right? The word does come up.
Voice 1: Uh hmm.
Voice 2: I specifically check on da after Adam Harris start talking stupidness at the press
conference.
Voice 1: Um hmm.
Voice 2: I check on that, the man at Ruimveldt seh he men, nobody fuh he because he had to
caution them about running to the scene. TSU same thing. So me aint, me aint know wha is this
big, big thing deh talking bout and then.
6
Voice 1: You badda with dem banna, bai?
Voice 2: No, the PNC getting suck into the same s..t too.
Voice 1: Meaning wa?
Voice 2: Talking about… (muffled)… police response and all kind a shit.
Voice 1: Today?
Voice 2: Da ah hear at parliament today.
Voice 1: Who read da, who spoke about da? I had to leave to go to a meeting so.
Voice 2: Eh?
Voice 1: Me ain't hear da, but who spoke to parliament sehing da?
Voice 2: (muffled)
Voice 1: Don't worry with da, we gon deal with da. The point I am making to you is, is the same
thing deh come out from Laurie Lewis. You understand wah ah saying?
Voice 2: Mmm.
Voice 1: But I find that you go out deh and you, you and you give (muffled) how the thing went.
But I don't, I dont think anybody in this country expect unpaid policemen who are ill-equip to go to
them thing, you know; y'all could say wha y'all like, this general population ain't expect da. You
know putagee banna want deh could put some ah them in they, in ah sort ah special squad, and
they will go and respond to them. Because from what, the account I read in the papers, wa went on
deh, that skites look like was spirits.
Voice 2: Like was?
Voice 1: Was Spirits been out deh, nah human beings.
Voice 2: (Laugh)
Voice 1: Eh, no, if they want let them get a putagee squad to go out pun these scenes, you know.
That thing deh was freaky, banna. The only thing that left out from deh is that them banna wasn't
eating people, that them ain't eat some of them victims. Was real s....t. I don't know. Me ain't know
that you could be everywhere, you could do everything.
Voice 2: Well they…
Voice 1: What kinda response they wanted, boy?
Voice 2: Well, I gon ask Norman them that and leh them tell me. You see, when they had this
robbery in New Market Street, I check the thing and I see police and lil fault, me ain't seh nothing. I
went quick and I try fuh sew up the ends. Well that s…t that they trying to get on with, me ain't got
no time wid them.
Voice 1: But you know there's a trend happening now, people not sure who did what. Who did.
Nobody ain't coming an announce they do nothing, you know. So you ain't really know wah guyin
on, you know like with Waddle, nobody ain't announce and claim it. You understan wah I saying?
7
Voice 2: But why shoot up the gas station? That is wah I want know.
Voice 1: Well, that's a, I mean, you give a reasonable account, that it might be something to do wid
oil. That he either skin up he rival or something, you know. But I, as I said, I don't know, the whole
thing just look crazy. But in terms of the PNC giving a statement, I think that the PNC probably
want information so as to make an informed statement. So I don't know who go in parliament and
talking on the issue already. I trying fuh get what was there to talk about. We were discussing
Caricom. I left deh at 4 o'clock.
Voice 2: Uh-huh. Nah I hear from the PPP side that some people at parliament, they ain't
specifically, seh who.
Voice 1: Oh not, not like at the session?
Voice 2: Nah, not in Parliament.
Voice 1: Oh, like them who walking about in the corridors? Okay. So you just gotta hold…I think you
did well at the press conference deh. You hold a light, you know. You gotta hook up.
Voice 2: Yeah, yeah, I gon hook up.
Voice 1: You got to hook up and, am, get a focus on what's going on.
Voice 2: Uh-huh.
Voice 1: You know.
Voice 2: But hear I think that alyuh should run in that place you know. Y'all should run in da place.
Voice 1: But you forget that me don't really check pun them things you know.
Voice 2: I know, but, am, it showing up. It showing up.
Voice 1: Me don't check pun them. Now I see another thing deh; I know that is a platoon, a platoon
amount to 32.
Voice 2: (laughing and coughing)
Voice 1: I learn that pun the course. That is a whole platoon gone out deh plus one boy. I tell you. I
don't know. Is certain if you want a atmosphere of fear to attend the election, it certainly is there,
you know.
Voice 2: Well, you know some people don't understand, you know once you want to play wid
violence, violence will have to surround you. When they go and kill Shaka Blair, they didn't expect
this s…t woulda happen, right?
Voice 1: Uh-huh.
Voice 2: They run into years and months of s…t. They gone and kill f…..g Waddle now. What the
f...k they expect?
Voice 1: Boy, them man head ain't good. I think they start something they can't finish, rass. Dah
skite deh is rough, boy. Them banna head ain't good, boy. As I tell you the best thing that could
happen now is they announce that they can't mek the election deadline.
8
Voice 2: Fuh wha? Fuh y'all behave bad?
Voice 1: No. If they can't mek…
Voice 2: Like y'all playing the people hand.
Voice 1: No, if they can't mek dat, they can't continue. They gatta get some other arrangement
Voice 2: They in office. They gotta get a government.
Voice 1: No. no. They life finish at the end of the five years.
Voice 2: So who is the government?
Voice 1: They can't. Them ain't got no government. The President is the only man that continue
until the next person elected tek up office.
Voice 2: So who is the government?
Voice 1 : But that's what I'm saying. You gotta get a arrangement in place. Hoyte coulda extended
it because he had two thirds, they don't have.
Voice 2: I know dah, I know dah.
Voice 1: So it might be a blessing in disguise for Guyana. That they gah wuk together and try and
see how they can try and carry the country forward.
Voice 2: Well, you know, I tell, I tell them so a morning, I seh I bet the two a them who bruck-up
come back together and start a new show.
Voice 1: Banna, even if you have an election, you think that is gonna solve problem? In this, under
the old system, same system.
Voice 2: But hear, banna, hear, hear, them banna want an extension right?
Voice 1: Yeah, they want two years.
Voice 2: Righ.t
Voice 1: But they can't get no extension like dat, because them ain't got the power fuh get the
extension. After they expire deh on the 4 th they ain't get no rule fuh keep them in power. The
President is the only man, but them ain't get no parliament, you know, and they got to do some
constitutional manoeuvering. So you got to look at forms of interim government, caretaker
government, share governance what we been talking about, they got to wuk on it now. They could
come together and mek decision fuh the country, you know. Cut all this violence and all this shit
that going on here, and they also start the dangerous trend weh they gone and stage that thing deh
the other day.
Voice 2: Which one?
Voice 1: That stage thing deh with dah other one, wha you seh was stage.
Voice 2: F…..g stage, yes.
Voice 1: Now dat thing deh sent shock waves through this country you know, don't get tie up.
9
Voice 2: Uh hmm. Banna, that is why I come out wid that statement.
Voice 1: Uh hmm.
Voice 2: Yeah, because I know how people felt about it and I seh that I will bust it up because…
Voice 1: That is wholly unacceptable, boy. Even the mafia don't touch family, boy.
Voice 2: Hear, hear wha these people do. Hear, hear what they do. They get Benfield fuh put up he
child. Benfield been at this school whole morning wid this child. From ten past ten till almost 12
o'clock. He wife call he fuh some key. School got 10 minutes more to go in recess. He goes away
and leave the child. Why not ask the teacher to take the child? Because is only 10 minutes more, is
not a whole period left.
Voice 1: I agree there was no profit fuh the child stay there for another 10 minutes.
Voice 2: Good. He could have gone wid the child. He go way, look after he key, come back 15
minutes after. Some woman come and asked fuh the child by her home name. The home name is
Tiffany. The teachers in school ain't know nothing about who is Tiffany. The teacher saying ‘me ain't
got no Tiffany' till eventually the child answer to the name Tiffany. This child walked out wid this
lady without a queh.
Voice 1: Somebody she know?
Voice 2: It look suh. So we start to investigate. Well, you know, they gon run mad and they gun run
up and down. They hear the child deh in Alexander Village, they run and search da house. Nothing
ain't deh in deh. They hear the child deh in Agricola. Run search da house, nothing ain't deh in deh.
Well, is Green they had in a uproar, not me. Then some calls start coming through, when we check
up on these calls, banna, one is in Queen Street, Shawn Benfield had control of da place. He used to
live deh. While the police in deh, he turn up. The other call that we trace to D'Urban Street, a
woman living in a bottom flat.
Voice 1: Uh hmm.
Voice 2: That woman.
Voice 1: He came to me, eh.
Voice 2: Eh eh.
Voice 1: Yeah. That was me clerk.
Voice 2: Well, hear nah man, Benfield wife use to visit dah woman.
Voice 1: Uh hmm.
Voice 2: Benfield wife use to. Isn't it strange that in a kidnapping the call did making from places
where the mother and father got control of?
Voice 1: Uh-huh.
Voice 2: Eh? That is how kidnapping does guh?

quote:

Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this.

Gerhard,

Lets agree to disagree on this point. I am convinced that RK was a necessary evil in the context of what was happening.

You wrote:

"Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this."

Lets not kid ourselves my friend. Guyana is insignificant in the scheme of things, as far as the Americans are concerned. The situation may change if oil/gas is discovered. Guyana should not act thinking how the Americans or British or Canadians will view us. Our interest are not always aligned with theirs. History has been clear on this point.

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this.

Gerhard,

Lets agree to disagree on this point. I am convinced that RK was a necessary evil in the context of what was happening.

You wrote:

"Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this."

Lets not kid ourselves my friend. Guyana is insignificant in the scheme of things, as far as the Americans are concerned. The situation may change if oil/gas is discovered. Guyana should not act thinking how the Americans or British or Canadians will view us. Our interest are not always aligned with theirs. History has been clear on this point.

True, even the most pro-Western person knows this, there will always be tension as every nation look at it's own interest. You should however, not create a sense of threat to each other. Given our proximity, the US will b our natural customer and we shoul keep a cordial, luke warm, if not warm and fuzzy relations. In the end, Guyana's strategic interest will better be served by a good relations with the West.

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this.

Gerhard,

Lets agree to disagree on this point. I am convinced that RK was a necessary evil in the context of what was happening.

You wrote:

"Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this."

Lets not kid ourselves my friend. Guyana is insignificant in the scheme of things, as far as the Americans are concerned. The situation may change if oil/gas is discovered. Guyana should not act thinking how the Americans or British or Canadians will view us. Our interest are not always aligned with theirs. History has been clear on this point.

You are ignoring the fact that Roger Khan wanted to turn Guyana into a narco state where he would be the king. This guy would have played the game from both sides. Your threshold for evil is quite high.

quote:

Originally posted by redux:

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

it was the rich businessmen who stepped in.

And that too was a popular rumor. Funny the embassy guys never heard that one but almost all the business people were privy to it.

One business guy told me that powerful business man put the phantoms together and sent a message that the GoG should stay out of the way. At the end of the day it was pure capitalism that was the main motivator. The businessmen were losing too much money.

I seriously doubt that RK needed other "businessmen" to conceptualize and fund his phantom death squad(s); Gaje's phantoms (and others??) . . ., more likely.

A lot of lazy thinking on this BB.

You may doubt it but what do you base that doubt on. The American cables was based on "man in the street interviews." In other words the political officer sat at his desk went through the dailies and then went out and spoke to friends and acquaintances.

I did pretty much the same. During and after the incidents I was in Guyana every other week and I spoke to many business people from Georgetown to Skeldon. I spoke with political operatives from various political parties...the most interesting conversation was one with CN at a beer garden on the East Coast. Buddy Shivraj and his brothers were playing music and dancing on the road opposite beer garden.

I sat in different rum shops talking to people about what was happening and I even went to Enmore. My driver did not want to go to Buxton but we did briefly stop on the main road...truth be told I too was pretty nervous.

I used the same methodology as the embassy. The difference was I was not talking to those who were making the decisions.

Of course there was a reason for my interest. Understanding how to assign political risk was important to me.

quote:

Originally posted by TK_REDUX:

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this.

Gerhard,

Lets agree to disagree on this point. I am convinced that RK was a necessary evil in the context of what was happening.

You wrote:

"Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this."

Lets not kid ourselves my friend. Guyana is insignificant in the scheme of things, as far as the Americans are concerned. The situation may change if oil/gas is discovered. Guyana should not act thinking how the Americans or British or Canadians will view us. Our interest are not always aligned with theirs. History has been clear on this point.

You are ignoring the fact that Roger Khan wanted to turn Guyana into a narco state where he would be the king. This guy would have played the game from both sides. Your threshold for evil is quite high.

I am practical. Sometimes we make difficult decisions and then deal with the consequences. I do not support RK's illicit activities. I welcomed his intervention which was planned by the business community.

Recently the US Government decided that they had to make peace with the drug cartels in Afghanistan if they were going to win over the support of the villagers. US soldiers turned a blind eye to heroine being moved through the country. That was a practical decision. That doe not mean that President Obama supports drug trafficking or that he has conceded to the cartels.

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

Originally posted by redux:

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

it was the rich businessmen who stepped in.

And that too was a popular rumor. Funny the embassy guys never heard that one but almost all the business people were privy to it.

One business guy told me that powerful business man put the phantoms together and sent a message that the GoG should stay out of the way. At the end of the day it was pure capitalism that was the main motivator. The businessmen were losing too much money.

I seriously doubt that RK needed other "businessmen" to conceptualize and fund his phantom death squad(s); Gaje's phantoms (and others??) . . ., more likely.

A lot of lazy thinking on this BB.

You may doubt it but what do you base that doubt on. The American cables was based on "man in the street interviews." In other words the political officer sat at his desk went through the dailies and then went out and spoke to friends and acquaintances.

I did pretty much the same. During and after the incidents I was in Guyana every other week and I spoke to many business people from Georgetown to Skeldon. I spoke with political operatives from various political parties...the most interesting conversation was one with CN at a beer garden on the East Coast. Buddy Shivraj and his brothers were playing music and dancing on the road opposite beer garden.

I sat in different rum shops talking to people about what was happening and I even went to Enmore. My driver did not want to go to Buxton but we did briefly stop on the main road...truth be told I too was pretty nervous.

I used the same methodology as the embassy. The difference was I was not talking to those who were making the decisions.

Of course there was a reason for my interest. Understanding how to assign political risk was important to me.

I was making a distinction between RK's squad and the others. You do realize that there was more than one death squad . . .

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

Originally posted by TK_REDUX:

quote:

Originally posted by DND:

quote:

Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this.

Gerhard,

Lets agree to disagree on this point. I am convinced that RK was a necessary evil in the context of what was happening.

You wrote:

"Today however, especially give the strategic significance of Guyana to the West, there would have been help. I am convinced of it. But let us not get bitter about this."

Lets not kid ourselves my friend. Guyana is insignificant in the scheme of things, as far as the Americans are concerned. The situation may change if oil/gas is discovered. Guyana should not act thinking how the Americans or British or Canadians will view us. Our interest are not always aligned with theirs. History has been clear on this point.

You are ignoring the fact that Roger Khan wanted to turn Guyana into a narco state where he would be the king. This guy would have played the game from both sides. Your threshold for evil is quite high.

I am practical. Sometimes we make difficult decisions and then deal with the consequences. I do not support RK's illicit activities. I welcomed his intervention which was planned by the business community.

Recently the US Government decided that they had to make peace with the drug cartels in Afghanistan if they were going to win over the support of the villagers. US soldiers turned a blind eye to heroine being moved through the country. That was a practical decision. That doe not mean that President Obama supports drug trafficking or that he has conceded to the cartels.

Your analogy with respect to Afghanistan is nonsensical for two reasons:

1. The PPP utilized a guy who wanted to turn Guyana into another Colombia.

2. The PPP REFUSED foreign legitimate assistance and chose a murderous drug pusher instead. They had another option but went the drugs route. Why?

Many innocent people were killed in all of this. Tell that to their families.