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FM
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This thing aint ova yet?

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FM Former Member
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT

An Act to make provision for the election of members of the National Assembly under a system of Proportional Representation and for purposes connected therewith.

(25TH, SEPTEMBER, 1964)

Guyana: Electoral Law, 1964

Section 86

http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Ele...Guyana/guyrep01.html

86

1. No person shall be present at the counting of the votes except-

  a. the returning officer and such other election officers as he may appoint to assist him in the counting.

  b. the Minister, members of the Commission and members of any team of observers appointed by the minister;

  c. duly appointed candidates;

  d. counting agents;

  e. such other persons as, in the opinion of the returning officer, have good reason to be present.

6. The returning officer shall give the counting agents all such reasonable facilities for overseeing the proceedings and all such information with respect thereto as he can give them consistent with the orderly conduct of the proceedings and with the discharge of his duties in connection therewith.

FM
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FM Former Member
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT

An Act to make provision for the election of members of the National Assembly under a system of Proportional Representation and for purposes connected therewith.

(25TH, SEPTEMBER, 1964)

Guyana: Electoral Law, 1964

Section 84

http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Ele...Guyana/guyrep01.html

PART IX
COUNTING OF VOTES POLLED

84.

1. Subject to the provisions of this Act, the votes cast at the polling places in each district shall be counted by the returning officer of that district in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

2. If the Chief Election Officer is satisfied that it is necessary or expedient in the interests of the carrying out of the provisions of this Part with due despatch or security he may, by notice published in the Gazette, direct that for the purposes of the counting of the votes the returning officers of districts specified in the notice shall count the votes for their respective districts at a place appointed by the said notice and this Act shall have effect accordingly.

3. Where the Chief Election Officer has given a direction pursuant to subsection (29)

  a. he may designate one of the returning officers of the districts specified in the notice to exercise general direction and supervision over the counting of votes at the place so appointed;

  b. references in this Part to election officers, duly appointed candidates and counting agents shall have effect as if they included references to such persons appointed in respect of any of the districts in respect of which the direction applies.

FM
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FM Former Member

Failure to have transparent electoral process could lead to dictatorship-Goolsarran

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If Guyana does not see an electoral process that is transparent and representative of the will of the people, then it could very well end up with a dictatorship on its hands. This point was alluded to by Chartered Account and Former Auditor General, Anand Goolsarran in his recent writings.

In his column which was published by Stabroek News, Goolsarran said, “â€ĶThe failure to count each ballot cast in an open and transparent manner thwarts the will of the people to elect a government of their choice, and can lead to a tendency towards authoritarianism and eventually dictatorship.” When this happens, the Chartered Accountant said that the highest form of accountability – accountability to the people – is destroyed; and all other forms of accountability collapse around it.

Further to this, the former Auditor General said, “We have witnessed how the electoral process was severely tampered with on four occasions during the period 1968 to 1985, to produce a government that did not represent the will of the people. By 1981, the country had ground to a halt economically and was declared technically bankrupt.”

On this note, Goolsarran asserted that no amount of oil wealth will save Guyana from economic disaster if respect is not shown for the will of the people and their right to elect a government of their choice to manage on their behalf, the affairs of the State.

Furthermore, when one considers all that has played out with the 2020 General and Regional Elections thus far, the transparency advocate said it leaves one to question whether Guyanese are actually witnessing the first sign of the ‘resource curse’.

FM
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RochelleRochelleModerator

Note that in an affidavit filed with the High Court, Deputy Chief Elections Officer Roxanne Myers revealed that the Spreadsheet System which the Region 4 Returning Officer Mr. Clairmont Mingo utilized was used in 8 of the other 9 regions (SIX of which were won by the PPP). The PPP has objected to the use of the spreadsheet system ONLY in Region 4.

The Chief Justice ruled that it is entirely the decision of RO Mingo on what method of tabulation is used once tabulation is recommenced.

Rochelle
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FM Former Member

Rochelle

Note that in an affidavit filed with the High Court, Deputy Chief Elections Officer Roxanne Myers revealed that the Spreadsheet System which the Region 4 Returning Officer Mr. Clairmont Mingo utilized was used in 8 of the other 9 regions (SIX of which were won by the PPP). The PPP has objected to the use of the spreadsheet system ONLY in Region 4. The Chief Justice ruled that it is entirely the decision of RO Mingo on what method of tabulation is used once tabulation is recommenced.

What is the preoccupation with him using a spreadsheet except the usual he cannot populate it at his discretion with data he procured outside the view of the observers? He can use a spreadsheet all he wants as long as he is using information from transparent sources. It the APNU knows they have the votes why worry about counting it so there is no doubt to anyone?

FM
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T TotaramSenior Member

Well these legal rulings are complicated and the average person doesn't always understand them.  And when I don't understand them I ask people who do to explain.  But you see the problem with political matters is that they are rarely if ever solved by legal proceedings .  In any case the current matter on which the CJ ruled is a political matter and courts don't like to get involved. 

Anyway I have another source of wisdom to whom I take these kids of matters.  Some people like to ask :What would Jesus do? etc. etc.  Well the wise one who is my source of wisdom is my mother. She went to Lord Krishna a long time ago but I have imaginary conversations with her.  So today I had a talk with her about the CJ's ruling.  I mentioned to her the facts of the case and she said bai dem still a fight a Guyana.  Anyway she explained de way she saw things.  She said it is like if you go a Uncle Harry store an yo buy one drinks an cake and pay wid one dalla.  Uncle Harry charge you 65 cents and throw you change pan de counter.  You vex and pick up you change an go home and complain to you daady that the change wrang .  My mother explained that you think the change wrang , Uncle Harry think it right .  So you go to a pandit to help wid the matter.   He hear the matter and say is uncle harry shap and he can tell yu wa you change is but e prapa rude.  You must go bak and tell e that he suppose to han you back you change in you han.  OK me go go back an wa happen if e han me 35 cents in me hand and me still think the change wrang.  Well the pandit say that da would be a matter fo a swami.   Me mumma na go a scool but she smaat mo than dem PPP people. 

Mr. Boston understands the ruling and was only feigning disappointment.

T
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K kpHonorary Member
RochelleNew Member
 The Returning Officer of all polling stations uses the Statement Of Polls to tabulate the results, then the chief election officer put that information on a spreadsheet to be submitted to the chairman, for her to make the final declaration as to who is the winner, ok.   i can't explain this more simple.
 In other words you have to put the jackass infront of the cart.
K
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FM Former Member

Totaram

 

<style="color:#000066;">Well these legal rulings are complicated and the average person doesn't always understand them. And when I don't understand them I ask people who do to explain. But you see the problem with political matters is that they are rarely if ever solved by legal proceedings . In any case the current matter on which the CJ ruled is a political matter and courts don't like to get involved.

 

Anyway I have another source of wisdom to whom I take these kids of matters. Some people like to ask :What would Jesus do? etc. etc. Well the wise one who is my source of wisdom is my mother. She went to Lord Krishna a long time ago but I have imaginary conversations with her. So today I had a talk with her about the CJ's ruling. I mentioned to her the facts of the case and she said bai dem still a fight a Guyana. Anyway she explained de way she saw things. She said it is like if you go a Uncle Harry store an yo buy one drinks an cake and pay wid one dalla. Uncle Harry charge you 65 cents and throw you change pan de counter. You vex and pick up you change an go home and complain to you daady that the change wrang . My mother explained that you think the change wrang , Uncle Harry think it right . So you go to a pandit to help wid the matter. He hear the matter and say is uncle harry shap and he can tell yu wa you change is but e prapa rude. You must go bak and tell e that he suppose to han you back you change in you han. OK me go go back an wa happen if e han me 35 cents in me hand and me still think the change wrang. Well the pandit say that da would be a matter fo a swami. Me mumma na go a scool but she smaat mo than dem PPP people. Mr. Boston understands the ruling and was only feigning disappointment.

Rulings are seldom outside the comprehension of the plaintiff and defendant else they would not be elated or aggrieved by the outcome.

This is counting votes in an election - a proper count that is - it is not a political matter but a matter of grave importance - conservation of the sovereignty of the individual. It is the basis on which individuals electors transfer rights to an agency to act on their behalf and fundamental to democracy.

I am quite sure your mom did not explain it that way. Any ot her way would be puzzling and one would wonder if she was given to drink or you were hence this confused retelling.

FM
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T TotaramSenior Member

@Former Member It is not the counting of the votes that is in question.  It is the tabulation of the SOPs and how that is done and reported. My understanding is that the CJ mentioned that that is the prerogative of the RO/Deputy.  The RO for Region 4 made a declaration days ago.  Should one expect he would make a different declaration tomorrow or Friday.  Oh, the Swami in my story is a judge in an election petition.

T
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K kpHonorary Member

High Court scraps Region Four votes declaration, orders GECOM to conduct recount

Posted by: Denis Chabrol in Elections, Legal, News, Politics March 11, 2020 1 Comment

 

Region/District Four Returning Officer, Clairmont Mingo (left) and Chief Elections Officer, Keith Lowenfield at the High Court on Wednesday, March 11, 2020.

Chief Justice Roxane George-Wiltshire on Wednesday ordered the Guyana Elections Commission (GECOM) to restart or continue the verification of the results for Region Four from Thursday at 11 am.

She issued that and several other orders because she found that GECOM’s Returning Officer for Region Four had caused “substantial non-compliance” with the Representation of the People Act concerning the addition of all of the Statements of Poll for District Four and whether that process was conducted in the presence of persons entitled to have been present.”

Based on court papers filed in this case, of the 879 polling stations, 421 were verified, leaving a 458 to be tabulated.

She also said it would be the Returning Officer or the Deputy Returning Officer to determine whether to restart or continue the process and “it will also be their decision to decide on what is the best method for tabulating the Statements of Poll so I want to emphasise that everybody who thinks they can have an input or a say, it is not their statutory duty.”

GECOM’s Attorney-at-Law, Neil Boston said the elections management agency would not be appealing her decision and that it was ready to commence the process.

Following are the substantive orders:

  • The declaration made on the 5th March, 2020 by the Returning Officer for District Four of the total votes cast for District Four was unlawful and in breach of Section 84(1) of the Representation of the People Act Chapter 103 and is now void and of no effect
  • The declaration made on the 5th March, 2020 by the Returning Officer for District Four of the votes for District Four is hereby vacated and set aside
  • Any act done pursuant to the said declaration is hereby deemed null and void and of no effect
  • Subject to my admonition as regards the role of persons entitled to be present and attend, the Returning Officer and/or the Deputy Returning Officer must comply with Section 84(1) in ascertaining the total votes cast in favour of each list and the public declaration of votes so recorded for each list of candidates
  • The Guyana Elections Commission cannot lawfully declare the results of March 2nd, 2020 general elections until the Returning Officer or Deputy Returning Officer for District Four complies with and/or ensures compliance with the provisions of Section 84(1) of Chapter 103. Therefore, the injunction is granted restraining the Returning Officer of District Four from any manner whatsoever from declaring the votes recorded for each list of candidates for District Four before complying with or ensuring the compliance with the process set out in Section 84 of Chapter 103. That injunction is now made final
  • Injunction granted restraining GECOM from declaring the total number of valid votes cast for each political party until the Returning Officer or Deputy Returning Officer for District Four complies with or ensures compliance with Section 84 of Chapter 103 is also hereby made final
  • The mandatory injunction that refers to the compliance with the letter and spirit of Section 84 is hereby discharged.

The urgency of the situation resulted in the following consequential orders:

  • The Returning Officer or Deputy Returning Officer for District Four must commence compliance with Section 84 (1) of the Representation of the People Act Chapter 103 no later than 11 hours on Thursday, March 12, 2020
  • That in the interest of transparency and taking into consideration, the Returning Officer and the Deputy Returning Officer for District Four is to decide whether the process of determining whether the total votes cast in favour of each list in the District by adding up the votes in favour of the list and in accordance with the Statements of Poll should be restarted or continued
  • It is also ordered that this order is to be served to Counsel for the parties and is to deemed as service to the parties.

Chief Justice George-Wiltshire stressed that her decision does not decide the result of or the validity of the result for District Four regionally or nationally. “This decision is concerned with the conduct of the Returning Officer in compliance” with the Representation of the People Act.

People’s Progressive Party (PPP) Attorney-at-Law, Anil Nandlall failed in his effort to get the Chief Justice to include in her orders that provision should be made for party representatives to be accommodated at the tabulation process. “I do not understand how that can be reflected in the order,” she said.

Boston, for GECOM, said the electoral agency would comply with the law because “that will lead to the confusion that brought these proceedings.”

K
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FM Former Member

Rochelle

THE RETURNING OFFICER OF ALL POLLING STATIONS USES THE STATEMENT OF POLLS TO TABULATE THE RESULTS, THEN THE CHIEF ELECTION OFFICER PUT THAT INFORMATION ON A SPREADSHEET TO BE SUBMITTED TO THE CHAIRMAN, FOR HER TO MAKE THE FINAL DECLARATION AS TO WHO IS THE WINNER, OK. I CAN'T EXPLAIN THIS MORE SIMPLE. In other words you have to put the jackass infront of the cart. 

Those officers are to follow a protocol to ensure the contest is fair. They do not do so willy-nilly. Elections are deemed fair when the process is transparent hence the necessity for so many rules.

It is a contest of merit for one party or another to control the lives of the state and its assets and beyond even the picking of a name from a hat, it is to be adjudicated transparent and fair. That is what is involved  here in the right ordering the cart and the horse.

It is not fair to hide any of the vote counting process where presiding officials can game the system at their discretion. Given the PNC historical penchant to cheat, they have to earn trust. 

 

FM
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T TotaramSenior Member

"She also said it would be the Returning Officer or the Deputy Returning Officer to determine whether to restart or continue the process and “"it will also be their decision to decide on what is the best method for tabulating the Statements of Poll so I want to emphasise that everybody who thinks they can have an input or a say, it is not their statutory duty.”"

This from Demerara Waves is a key part of the ruling.  

T
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FM Former Member

In is glaring that someone who profess to be an attorney did not grasp what the Chief Justice meant when she said that the law does not direct how votes are tabulated. The other one is arguing that the PPP are arguing about tabulation of votes rather than verification of votes. Strange hos all the fools seem to gravitate to the PNC. 

FM
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FM Former Member

The law stipulates a SOPs be used. The SOPs has serial # which is difficult to rig and easy to trace. These SOPs were used and signed of at the polling station by all required personnel . Someone generate s spreadsheet and start inputting numbers. 

The spreedsheet that was invented was showing more votes than voters in 17 of 23 boxes, and this spreedsheet show APNU has 100 more votes compare to the signed SOPs. Even the observers object to this invented spreadsheet.

there is a article on this issue, i will try to find and posted here.  

FM
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FM Former Member

“counting of the votes polled” and is provided for by Section 84 (1) of the Representation of the People Act, Chapter 1:03.

The law states that the Returning Officer shall, “in the presence of such of the persons entitled” to be there ascertain the total votes cast in favour of the parties.

Section 86 (1) lists the persons who shall be present at the counting of the votes.

These persons include:

(A) The Returning Officer, and such other Elections Officer appointed by him

(B) The Elections Commission

(C) Duly appointed Candidates

(D) Counting Agents

(E) Such other persons, as in the opinion of the Returning Officer, have good reason to be present.

Whats the big issue in leaving out observers? 

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FM
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FM Former Member

Mohabir Anil Nandlall

1 hr Â· 

The Order of the Chief Justice is now public knowledge. It is posted on my page. Please read carefully and you will not see the word “SPREADSHEET” mentioned anywhere in that Order.

You will see that the Chief Justice ordered that the Returning Officer must comply with Section 84 (1) of the Representation of the People Act, Cap 1:03 in ascertaining the number of votes cast in favour of each list of candidates.

I am attaching Section 84 (1) of the said Act and you will see that Returning Officer shall “ascertain the total votes cast in favour of each list in the district by adding up the votes recorded in favour of the list, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE STATEMENTS OF POLL...” .....NOT A SPREADSHEET!

It is impossible for me to make it clearer than this.

Image may contain: text

FM
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FM Former Member

Rochelle

Observers are not invited to the party any longer. Please read the CJ's judgement. .

The judge said the count is to begin pursuant to rule 84 through 86. The RO must be compliant with the rules. He is not king with the duty to do as he pleases. APNU should be happy to count votes in a transparent way so t he world would not be inclined to say they are crooks who intends to steal an election

FM
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T TotaramSenior Member

@Former Member Who are you to pronounce on morality?  Django has been objective in his contributions on the elections and he has done what he believes is right.  There is statistical evidence suggesting that the Region 4 numbers provided by the PPP are fake.  I posted a table from a PPP operative that is clearly fake but rather than examining the table to see the problem directly accusations are being hurled at those telling the truth.  

T
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FM Former Member

Recount as stipulated by the Court's Judgement is to be done to complete the election results.

It is important that the procedures must follow the process outlined in the Guyana Constitution -- Representation of the People Act, Section 84 (1) Cap 1:03, 25 September, 1964.

Due to the recent Court's decision, it would be prudent for the respective officers conduct the process precisely according to the conditions outlined in the Act.

Accredited Observers, international Representatives, etc., are to be  present until the process is completed.

FM
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FM Former Member

The RO can use a spreadsheet to tabulate the votes indicated on the SOPs. He can also use an abacus if he so chooses. If he wants to be a typical ridiculous PNC, he can use his fingers and toes. But whatever he tabulates has to come from the SOPs. What the PPP along with every other party other than the Coalition parties objected to was a spreadsheet which was populated with numbers that did not come from those SOPs. The Chief Justice said that that particular spreadsheet is in violation of article 84.

FM
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DjangoDjangoAdmin

Dave

@Django, you saw my post say  Anil Nandall! ...  rite and Anil provide a explanation.. did he not.

What more explanation you need?

You are aware of my question ,then again what can i expect.

It's a slick post by Nandlall ,unfortunately the post are being rebutted with lot of negativity on his fb page.

Django
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ðŸ’ŊâĪïļðŸ˜‚🎉🙏ðŸĪ”😀ðŸ˜đ👍👎☝ïļðŸ‘ðŸ˜ŧ👀ðŸ‘ŋðŸ˜ĒðŸĪŠðŸĪĢ✅🙄ðŸĪ·ðŸ”Ĩ🏆📈ðŸĪŊ
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Welcome to the Original Guyanese Discussion Forums, first established in 1996. Here you can discuss, ask questions or generally debate anything related to politics, movies, music, health or just gyaff away your day/night here. A note of warning, the Political forum is not for the faint of heart.  We do have some rules, so please adhere to them .
 
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Welcome to the Original Guyanese Discussion Forums, first established in 1996. Here you can discuss, ask questions or generally debate anything related to politics, movies, music, health or just gyaff away your day/night here.

Please note while you do have free access to our Forums, the Political Forum will now be a Paid Membership Forum. What does this mean? To write in the Political Forum you must be a paying member. The fee is $25.00 US per year and is non refundable. Payment can be done through PayPal.
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