D2 posted:

 

Free and fair within the confines of a totalitarian constitution that elects autocratic ethnic based presidents is only free and fair by by definition. By practice it is a dictatorship. The PPP was tasked to transition us into a democracy. Instead they did a shuffle step and retained the dictators constitution because of greed hence we are in the same boat as we were in seven decades ago....a dictatorship by the ruling party. 

The PPP selection mechanism is completely per democratic centralism. At least eht PNC has a membership vote and not 15 party insiders. 

I can go into lots of things the PPP hide...skeldon funding...what the Marriott was being constructed to house, why sell ATN shares, why OMAI did not earn profits, Why give away thousands of square miles of land to a Chinese fellow etc but all of that is besides the point presently. It is about their failure to change and the act of deliberately inventing rules to be undemocratic so Jagdeo can be Putin.

I was referencing the first 3+ years of the PPP and the first 3+ years of the Coalition. If you just consider the salary increases and expanding of government along with that 18M signing bonus and extrapolate at for two decades, they will surpass the PPP malfeasance by miles. Now you can also add the fact that they seem reluctance to obey the constitution so that they can remain in government. Suddenly he negatives of the Coalition government are stacking up very fast. 

D2 posted:

skeldon_man posted:

D2 posted:

ksazma posted:

D2 posted:

 

No party should get to determine the criteria of what constitute contribution. What the hell has any of those graduates of GIMPEX U did to deem them worthy of office? Jagdeo's only claim to fame is because he was JJ lapdog. We are a democracy and to be a democracy no cabal of party institutionalist ( 15 persons) should get to select the president and offer him/her for the state to ratify. That kind of thing is for Russia and China and Tajikistan and Iran not us. We should be rid of such shackles a long time now

The PPP is like the bull in the pasture...it snorts an kicks and tell you to walk. If you want to contrast that to the PNC bull that snorts and digs facing you the problem is the same. You are screwed if you get into the field.

Fair enough. However, that is their right as an organization. In the end, they will only prevail if they get the support of the voters. Even the Democrats in the US has a rigged system for selecting their presidential candidate.

The democrats has no rigging system. It has reserved electors to prevent outsiders from invading. It was deemed rigging because one fellow who was not a party member wanted be president and had to confront the institutions in the party It is no less than the system of two senators per state even if California is the worlds fifth largest economy and Vermont is not sufficiently a big city compared.  

Go tell that to Bernie Sanders. The same is true of the PPP then.

Bernie is not a democrat.

Agree. But the Dems should not look for his support in the Senate if they don't want him. Remember, he campaigned on the democratic ticket.

D2 posted:

Fu..ck that....we are not a communist nation. We are a democratic nation where anyone from the local fishwife to the privileged socialite should get a chance to be president. That this party still embrace a philosophically and intellectually dead creed in th is era of open democracy means they are petrified in their thinking.

Calm down. Let the PPP choose its presidential candidate according to its own method. And come election day you're free to reject the PPP if you don't like its candidate. That's your democratic right.

Gilbakka posted:

D2 posted:

Fu..ck that....we are not a communist nation. We are a democratic nation where anyone from the local fishwife to the privileged socialite should get a chance to be president. That this party still embrace a philosophically and intellectually dead creed in th is era of open democracy means they are petrified in their thinking.

Calm down. Let the PPP choose its presidential candidate according to its own method. And come election day you're free to reject the PPP if you don't like its candidate. That's your democratic right.

You will not see anyone holding a gun in Freedom House during the nominating process.

D2 posted:

ksazma posted:

 

I see both of these as similar in essence. Ultimately it is moot as the one who prevails would only do so at the behest of the voters.

How can there ever be a similarity when candidates are primaried by the entire nation and the PPP has a 15 member cabal doing the job. By the time any candidate, GOP Or Democrat are selected they have millions of people selecting them.

Because the primaries in the Democratic party ends up being a farce when one person can make one vote and it counts for thousands of votes thereby bastardizing the process. It is still rigged. Hillary complained about it when she ran against Obama. Obama prevailed at the general elections. Sanders also complained about that system when Hillary benefited from it but lost the general elections. Even if the PPP use only one person to select their candidate, that person still has to confront the general public in the general elections so whatever the PPP did in selecting their candidate is meaningless in the general elections regardless what system they use.

Gilbakka posted:

D2 posted:

Fu..ck that....we are not a communist nation. We are a democratic nation where anyone from the local fishwife to the privileged socialite should get a chance to be president. That this party still embrace a philosophically and intellectually dead creed in th is era of open democracy means they are petrified in their thinking.

Calm down. Let the PPP choose its presidential candidate according to its own method. And come election day you're free to reject the PPP if you don't like its candidate. That's your democratic right.

I have a right to object and protest against this vile ademocratic practice from both party. After all, it is about maximizing the voice and exit strategies of people in a democracy and not accepting practices that restrict it. This is a horrible practice that has been long abandoned by every democratic state on the planet and its retention here shows an obstinacy to change.

Philosophically it as totalitarian in structure ( to conserve a communist vanguard party) and should not be acceptable to people wanting a democracy. My democratic right is to highlight its undemocratic practice and call out those pretentious fellows who foist this dictatorial scheme on a population who are busy trying to survive than to focus on the philosophical backwardness of the people they rely on to save them.

Only the non PPP supporters are complaining  and when the PNC used the barrel of the gun to select their representatives no one complain. The PPP don't have to follow the PNC rigged system. The candidate selected must be one to win the next election at all cost.

ksazma posted:

D2 posted:

ksazma posted:

 

I see both of these as similar in essence. Ultimately it is moot as the one who prevails would only do so at the behest of the voters.

How can there ever be a similarity when candidates are primaried by the entire nation and the PPP has a 15 member cabal doing the job. By the time any candidate, GOP Or Democrat are selected they have millions of people selecting them.

Because the primaries in the Democratic party ends up being a farce when one person can make one vote and it counts for thousands of votes thereby bastardizing the process. It is still rigged. Hillary complained about it when she ran against Obama. Obama prevailed at the general elections. Sanders also complained about that system when Hillary benefited from it but lost the general elections. Even if the PPP use only one person to select their candidate, that person still has to confront the general public in the general elections so whatever the PPP did in selecting their candidate is meaningless in the general elections regardless what system they use.

The reserved votes are electors who hold office in the party. It was worse in earlier times when like the PPP does today the candidate was settled in backrooms. It is seen as anti democratic as t he party evolved hence they are restricting the effect of super delegates.

The PPP on the other hand are making rules that fortify Democratic Centralism.

D2,
I have a right to object and protest against this vile ademocratic practice from both party.

 If you are so disturbed by the PPP process you see there, go to Guyana, join the PPP and register your complaint. I am sure the membership fee is a nominal amount I can reimburse you.
What do you say?

D2 posted:

ksazma posted:

 

Because the primaries in the Democratic party ends up being a farce when one person can make one vote and it counts for thousands of votes thereby bastardizing the process. It is still rigged. Hillary complained about it when she ran against Obama. Obama prevailed at the general elections. Sanders also complained about that system when Hillary benefited from it but lost the general elections. Even if the PPP use only one person to select their candidate, that person still has to confront the general public in the general elections so whatever the PPP did in selecting their candidate is meaningless in the general elections regardless what system they use.

The reserved votes are electors who hold office in the party. It was worse in earlier times when like the PPP does today the candidate was settled in backrooms. It is seen as anti democratic as t he party evolved hence they are restricting the effect of super delegates.

The PPP on the other hand are making rules that fortify Democratic Centralism.

While I agree that there are talks to eliminate the super delegates in Democratic primaries, that system was used as late as 2016. It may still be used next year so we don't know how much the Democrats have evolved from that practice. Likewise, time and events will tell when the system that the PPP uses is no longer a viable one. About communism, while there is always so much talk about the PPP communist views, it is only the PNC who have governed in a quasi communist manner in Guyana. 

kp posted:

Only the non PPP supporters are complaining  and when the PNC used the barrel of the gun to select their representatives no one complain. The PPP don't have to follow the PNC rigged system. The candidate selected must be one to win the next election at all cost.

Get it in your noggins; the PPP practice of gaming the system to select a pliable candidate to have the jagdeo's monkey on his back affects us all. It is a civic duty to complain as you calim to have complained when the franchise was seized by the PNC. What the PPP is doing here is imposing a rigid ideological will on the selection of the president and that practice constricts creative expression, restricts change and worse perpetuates despotism. It is anti democratic.

ksazma posted:

D2 posted:

ksazma posted:

 

Because the primaries in the Democratic party ends up being a farce when one person can make one vote and it counts for thousands of votes thereby bastardizing the process. It is still rigged. Hillary complained about it when she ran against Obama. Obama prevailed at the general elections. Sanders also complained about that system when Hillary benefited from it but lost the general elections. Even if the PPP use only one person to select their candidate, that person still has to confront the general public in the general elections so whatever the PPP did in selecting their candidate is meaningless in the general elections regardless what system they use.

The reserved votes are electors who hold office in the party. It was worse in earlier times when like the PPP does today the candidate was settled in backrooms. It is seen as anti democratic as t he party evolved hence they are restricting the effect of super delegates.

The PPP on the other hand are making rules that fortify Democratic Centralism.

While I agree that there are talks to eliminate the super delegates in Democratic primaries, that system was used as late as 2016. It may still be used next year so we don't know how much the Democrats have evolved from that practice. Likewise, time and events will tell when the system that the PPP uses is no longer a viable one. About communism, while there is always so much talk about the PPP communist views, it is only the PNC who have governed in a quasi communist manner in Guyana. 

No it will not be used. I know this 100 percent. The superdeligate load has decreased substantially. 

The PPP is making new rules to strengthen democratic centralism and when one acquiesced in the face of it as you do you remain a mental slave to party dogma and not a free thinking social being. 

D2 posted:

 

No it will not be used. I know this 100 percent. The superdeligate load has decreased substantially. 

The PPP is making new rules to strengthen democratic centralism and when one acquiesced in the face of it as you do you remain a mental slave to party dogma and not a free thinking social being. 

I will take your word on the Democratic party scrapping the super delegates system. Regarding the PPP, maybe they too will come around. Maybe after the upcoming elections if they are trounced and realize that they need a different system. For clarification, what would be an acceptable system for s/electing the PPP presidential candidate?

Just for the record. I vote for Democrats.

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so. Nothing wrong with being Dalits. If we as human beings make an honest living, caste or status in life doesn't matter. We should be happy that we provide for our families.

this is messed up if true

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

The reality is that were the old rules to remain at least ramson had a chance because most of the people in this inner sanctum want change. They know the PPP cannot rely on its ethnic base to win and that  candidate that is not identified with the baggage of the past 3 decades would stand a better chance against the PNC. 

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so.

He was advised by that Brahmin Nehru of India, to form his committee with his own Jaatee ( the Hindu Varnaa System). This is where Burnham picked up on " Apan Jaat" Samjhe? 

Those in the lower rung in the /C of the PPP can never move up and become President.

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so.

He was advised by that Brahmin Nehru of India, to form his committee with his own Jaatee ( the Hindu Varnaa System). This is where Burnham picked up on " Apan Jaat" Samjhe? 

Those in the lower rung in the /C of the PPP can never move up and become President.

In Guyana this is outdated thinking.

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so. Nothing wrong with being Dalits. If we as human beings make an honest living, caste or status in life doesn't matter. We should be happy that we provide for our families.

So why can't Ramson move up the ladder? 

ksazma posted:

Just for the record. I vote for Democrats.

I am Independent, don't declare who I voted for. As the saying goes to each his own.

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so. Nothing wrong with being Dalits. If we as human beings make an honest living, caste or status in life doesn't matter. We should be happy that we provide for our families.

So why can't Ramson move up the ladder? 

If the man feels he is right, he should take the PPP to court. Everything is settled in court in Guyana.

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so.

He was advised by that Brahmin Nehru of India, to form his committee with his own Jaatee ( the Hindu Varnaa System). This is where Burnham picked up on " Apan Jaat" Samjhe? 

Those in the lower rung in the /C of the PPP can never move up and become President.

Is that true Mits ? bear in mind Cheddi Jagan was an atheist.s

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so.

He was advised by that Brahmin Nehru of India, to form his committee with his own Jaatee ( the Hindu Varnaa System). This is where Burnham picked up on " Apan Jaat" Samjhe? 

Those in the lower rung in the /C of the PPP can never move up and become President.

In Guyana this is outdated thinking.

Look at Emerging new rules  and you will see the analogy of the caste system. 

Django posted:

ksazma posted:

Just for the record. I vote for Democrats.

I am Independent, don't declare who I voted for. As the saying goes to each his own.

 I was a registered independent but changed it to Democrat as a protest to the Republicans for their treatment of Obama. As of now, I vote Democrats and will do so until the Republicans make some very significant changes in their attitudes. That is also why I don't support the PNC. They have not shown that they can change their bullyism attitude.

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so.

He was advised by that Brahmin Nehru of India, to form his committee with his own Jaatee ( the Hindu Varnaa System). This is where Burnham picked up on " Apan Jaat" Samjhe? 

Those in the lower rung in the /C of the PPP can never move up and become President.

In Guyana this is outdated thinking.

Look at Emerging new rules  and you will see the analogy of the caste system. 

The younger generation does not care about religion or caste. They care about making a living.

ksazma posted:

Django posted:

ksazma posted:

Just for the record. I vote for Democrats.

I am Independent, don't declare who I voted for. As the saying goes to each his own.

 I was a registered independent but changed it to Democrat as a protest to the Republicans for their treatment of Obama. As of now, I vote Democrats and will do so until the Republicans make some very significant changes in their attitudes. That is also why I don't support the PNC. They have not shown that they can change their bullyism attitude.

I have never voted Republican; only Democrat.

Django posted:

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so.

He was advised by that Brahmin Nehru of India, to form his committee with his own Jaatee ( the Hindu Varnaa System). This is where Burnham picked up on " Apan Jaat" Samjhe? 

Those in the lower rung in the /C of the PPP can never move up and become President.

Is that true Mits ? bear in mind Cheddi Jagan was an atheist.s

I heard this story when I was a likkle boy. Apan means "your" and jaat means "hair" or "caste" and depends on the context in which it is used.

skeldon_man posted:

ksazma posted:

Django posted:

ksazma posted:

Just for the record. I vote for Democrats.

I am Independent, don't declare who I voted for. As the saying goes to each his own.

 I was a registered independent but changed it to Democrat as a protest to the Republicans for their treatment of Obama. As of now, I vote Democrats and will do so until the Republicans make some very significant changes in their attitudes. That is also why I don't support the PNC. They have not shown that they can change their bullyism attitude.

I have never voted Republican; only Democrat.

I have voted Republican before, most notably for W. 

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Mitwah posted:

Those in the Central Committee are like the Brahmins and in the /C are like the Harijans / Dalits. 

Mits, Dr. Jagan did not think so.

He was advised by that Brahmin Nehru of India, to form his committee with his own Jaatee ( the Hindu Varnaa System). This is where Burnham picked up on " Apan Jaat" Samjhe? 

Those in the lower rung in the /C of the PPP can never move up and become President.

In Guyana this is outdated thinking.

Look at Emerging new rules  and you will see the analogy of the caste system. 

The younger generation does not care about religion or caste. They care about making a living.

Look at the analogy of the cast system and the emerging new rules. Why can't Ramson run for the top position?

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

Look at Emerging new rules  and you will see the analogy of the caste system. 

The younger generation does not care about religion or caste. They care about making a living.

Look at the analogy of the cast system and the emerging new rules. Why can't Ramson run for the top position?

As I said, he can take them to court for denying him his right.

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

 

The younger generation does not care about religion or caste. They care about making a living.

Look at the analogy of the cast system and the emerging new rules. Why can't Ramson run for the top position?

One may argue that he has not contributed enough as yet to rise above many others who have given more sweat and blood. 

D2 posted:

Gilbakka posted:

D2 posted:

Fu..ck that....we are not a communist nation. We are a democratic nation where anyone from the local fishwife to the privileged socialite should get a chance to be president. That this party still embrace a philosophically and intellectually dead creed in th is era of open democracy means they are petrified in their thinking.

Calm down. Let the PPP choose its presidential candidate according to its own method. And come election day you're free to reject the PPP if you don't like its candidate. That's your democratic right.

I have a right to object and protest against this vile ademocratic practice from both party. After all, it is about maximizing the voice and exit strategies of people in a democracy and not accepting practices that restrict it. This is a horrible practice that has been long abandoned by every democratic state on the planet and its retention here shows an obstinacy to change.

Philosophically it as totalitarian in structure ( to conserve a communist vanguard party) and should not be acceptable to people wanting a democracy. My democratic right is to highlight its undemocratic practice and call out those pretentious fellows who foist this dictatorial scheme on a population who are busy trying to survive than to focus on the philosophical backwardness of the people they rely on to save them.

Thanks for sharing your POV. Let's agree to disagree on some aspects. 

Even Gilly has probably spent more time in the trenches than Ramson Jr. so would be more reasonable if he wanted to compete for the presidency of Guyana. 

ksazma posted:

Mitwah posted:

skeldon_man posted:

 

The younger generation does not care about religion or caste. They care about making a living.

Look at the analogy of the cast system and the emerging new rules. Why can't Ramson run for the top position?

One may argue that he has not contributed enough as yet to rise above many others who have given more sweat and blood. 

then canecutters should be eligible since they give plenty sweat and blood

ksazma posted:

Even Gilly has probably spent more time in the trenches than Ramson Jr. so would be more reasonable if he wanted to compete for the presidency of Guyana. 

Without Ramson, they will lose. Too many forces will be acting against them. The best of the rest are PPP ideologues and expected to be as the PPP, hostile t he the US, friendly with the Chinese, unappealing to the young and hated by the black vote. 

D2 posted:

ksazma posted:

Even Gilly has probably spent more time in the trenches than Ramson Jr. so would be more reasonable if he wanted to compete for the presidency of Guyana. 

Without Ramson, they will lose. Too many forces will be acting against them. The best of the rest are PPP ideologues and expected to be as the PPP, hostile t he the US, friendly with the Chinese, unappealing to the young and hated by the black vote. 

Do you know Ramson?

I don't know why the delay, Anil Nandalall is the fit and prappa candidate. Ramson must be included in a major role maybe Attorney  General. 

ksazma posted:

Even Gilly has probably spent more time in the trenches than Ramson Jr. so would be more reasonable if he wanted to compete for the presidency of Guyana. 

Gilly made a modest contribution to the PPP from 1969 to early 1992. I never joined the party for high office. Wealth out of the question. Always honor before money.