Chief posted:

RiffRaff posted:

I haven't seen anything that says this fella is a Muslim...where you guys see this

IN THEIR BIGOTED MINDS!

Your defensiveness leads you into your own trap. He is of Iranian descent, so think about what % of the Iranian population isn't Muslim and then assess the probability that he is Muslim, practicing or not.

You so want to ardently defend anyone that is Muslim that you reduce your credibility.

What you should be arguing is that there is no evidence that this person acted based on religious beliefs.  Not trying to fool yourself that Muslims are of a superior religion, therefore not capable of criminal acts.

Support Kaz's idea that there is a need for some centralized structure in Islam to determine who is and who isn't allowed to represent themselves as a cleric, and to expose and close down the mosques, madrasahs and online sites run by frauds.  Do you want Christians to do this?  I think not.

Kari posted:

.

.. You're essentially saying that I should not be committed to the idea that Muslims are a peaceful people.

.

 

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It makes so sense to get into dialogue about whether Islam is pure or not. In fact YOU are encouraging others to get into the dogma of Islam and what main stream Muslims do.  That is NOT the point.

Some points.

1.  The Muslim world has allowed Saudi Arabians to take over and define what Islam is. Note some Caribbean Muslim women are now dressing like Arab women when this at no point represented their culture.  What the Saudi are doing is infesting their primitive nomadic tribal view point into mainstream Islam.  So what are Muslims doing to push back against this, and do you expect Christians to stop this growing scourge for you?

2.  This austere interpretation of Islam is being used as justification by fringe elements WITHIN Islam to propagate and spread their view point to more moderate Muslims, and even to attempt to change the cultural practices of non Muslim societies.

Around the late 90s there was a Muslim cleric who had a mosque in Jersey City where he was preaching hatred and violence and actively recruiting people to engage in terrorism. Other mosques have also been found.  So now these charlatans have gone online.  Clearly these activities are being funded and those who perpetrate this hold themselves as people knowledgeable about Islam.

3.  Islam is the ONLY religion which has allowed itself to be used as a vehicle by nutcases to commit acts motivated by insanity.  Now examine for a moment why bombings of abortion clinics, or of gay bars is relatively rare in the USA.  A nation filled with nut cases and with ample weapons available.

The issue that should concern you as a practicing Muslim is to investigate the reasons for this, and to propose various strategies to stop it. 

Note that I have NOT mentioned ISIS any where.  That is only an excuse by you to trivialize the issue, and to pretend that its demise will solve the problem.  It will NOT and you know it!

Kari posted:

 

 

CARIBNY, where is honor killing an Islamic thing?

Fatwahs, and jihads.  Is that something that non Muslims can solve?

CARIBNY, where is fatwah that incites killing an Islamic thing? You obviously do not understand the term jihad and instead use the western understanding of murderers.

 

So someone draws insulting images of Mohammed.  Is that a death sentence?  Why this anger?

Where do you see Muslims expressing outrage at images of the Prophet to the extent of murder? Those killers who kill caroonists and painters are the exact people you call Jihadists. They are not Muslims.

 

You need to admit that there are lunatics who use the Koran as inspiration.

Oh, we've said this so many times but you choose not to listen to anything other than Muslims = kill, kill, kill. If a KKK guy kills Blacks in a church and says the Bible is his inspiration does that make the Bible an agent of killing?

 

Al Qaeda is virtually dead.  Yet events over the past couple of months should indicate that religious violence is far from over. 

Arab, not Islam. Political ideology, not religion. The tool is not the murderer. The gun is not the killer; the man who pulled the trigger of the gun is the murderer. Invoking Islam (deranged) does not make Islam the killer.

 

There is a problem with how some interpret the Koran.  There are well organized systems to brainwash people.  ONLY Muslims can deal with that issue, because you certainly don't want others to interfere with your religion.

There is a problem with how climate deniers interpret science. If some Arabs interpret a book one way that's different from others then boo hoo to them and not to the book.

You keep using Muslim problem like it's a broken record. Can't help you there fellah. They will come for you and you will keep saying it's a Muslim problem, instead of defending yourself.

OK Kari you are in deep denial.  Just let one of these Jihadists have a major attack in the USA, and Trump is president.  Even Democratic analysts are admitting this.

Trump as President, Christie as the AG, and Giuliani in charge of the Homeland Security.....................

These Jihadists are Muslims, whether you wish to accept that fact or not.  They base their actions on their belief about what Islam represents, whether you chose to admit this or not.  And there is a well funded program of recruitment and brainwashing structured by people who hold themselves out as authorities on Islamic practices, whether you wish to admit this or not.

And the joke that the concept of fatwah, and jihad, aren't embedded in Islam is comical.  Just say that only a lunatic fringe uses Medieval interpretations of what this represents, like killing cartoonists.

As is the fact that in Muslim lands from Morocco all the way to Pakistan honor killing is used, with religion the justification for it.  Asked why people do it, they will point to Allah, whether you are happy with this behavior or not.

Kari, copy your friend Ksaz.  He admits that there is a problem and urges that Muslims form some centralized entity to remove from the ranks of the clerics any Tom Dick and Harry who can run their mouth, and them claim to be "correctly" interpreting Islam.  

But pretending as if Islam doesn't have a problem, from charlatans within its ranks, that it hasn't been partially hijacked by criminals, and that it hasn't become a vehicle for confused lunatics to engage in their madness

And Kari the probability of me having to defend myself if there is a Jihadist in late October is remote.  That is unless I am unlucky enough to be where it occurs.

YOU will have a problem when Giuliani, the Homeland chief and President Trump are forced to respond to the cries for blood that will emanate from the heartland.

Stormborn posted:

 

No that is not what I am saying. Religion is diktat. It is written. It is expressed as interpretations. ISIS hijacked it because they can gull close to half a million people that what they believe is of the Koran. Were there a world body of Muslim scholars who can be authoritative then there would be some uniformity of interpretations.

Islam somehow never care to have such a body. Such a body could say what does it matter if anyone paints the prophet or burns the Koran. The Koran is facsimile and the real one is in the meaning of the words not any book.

If a mullah say beat your wide. The authority can say that is not permitted. etc. If a Rushdie writes a book critical of the religion then so be it. No mullah can say kill him. These are consensus bodies that could inform on the coherency of the law and prevent  misuse

This is what Kari has to respond to. Rushdie wrote as he did and his life is threatened.   Ayaan Hirsi Ali did her bit and was also threatened.  These might be obnoxious people but in a free world people have a right to say what they want, and it is the role of those who disagree with them to  refute their claims.

Just as one cannot claim that some one isn't your brother, just because he is an axe murderer Kari cannot claim that jihadists aren't Muslim, even as they attend recognized Muslim places of worship.

Bill Maher screams against Christianity every week, and his program is still on and the studios haven't been bombed.

Islam has an issue that it must address, and mainstream Islam needs to take the bull by the horns, instead of distancing itself.  The problem comes from those elements of Arab tribal culture, which have now been mainstreamed as Islamic by the Saudis.  This is then used as justification by nutcases, inspired by renegade clerics.

Wailing that such behavior is "un Islamic" is a cop out.  The fact is that those who engage in it think that it is, and its the role of the rest of Islam to remove them from having the right to think that they can speak on behalf of Islam.   They need to set the standard of a 21st century Islam and insist that this is adhered to.

Oh skites,  you fighting wid youself

Abu Jihad posted:

Oh skites,  you fighting wid youself

No.  Just amazed at how folks like you have let lunatics use your religion as justification for their manic behavior.

ksazma posted:

Stormborn posted:

RiffRaff posted:

I could easily say that Police brutality against blacks is because blacks have a history of crime and blacks need to examine themselves and solve their problems. WHy do they act the way they do?

But I know that you cannot paint one set of people with a broad brush, and police brutality is real and wrong, and there is a large set of police who are plain out racists

black crime stats are horribly skewed due to over policing, onerous judicial process and recidivism given the disenfranchisement convicts face. Blacks are about ten times more likely to be stopped by police and when arrested over charged and before the courts under represented legally.

And one can address the social issues as inability to get loans and when the can the steering or red lining in the real estate market. Then there is the insubstantial government services from schools to health services.

Black problems are not ones they can directly change on their own input as we see in the philosophy of presenting ones religion for public consumption.  They need to over come racism and institutional racism. Muslim problems are  easily settled if the will exist to meet in a global conclave and make a declaration of faith  by presenting a committed front against distortions of a faith. This is an inter Muslim community problem

 

Stormy, are you suggesting that it is easier for some Muslim or group of Muslims reach into every nook and cranny of the Muslim world with a message to curb the current problems plaguing the Muslim world than it for Americans to reach into every nook and cranny of America to solve the racism and institutional racism plaguing America?

Secondly, if I use your analogy that "black crime stats are horribly skewed due to over policing, onerous judicial process and recidivism given the disenfranchisement convicts face", then I would have to conclude that the Muslim world doesn't have a terrorism problem given that the incidents of crimes by blacks in America vastly outnumbered the incidents of terrorists although a terrorist attack gets wall to wall reporting and rightfully so.

 

There is a black problem crime problem as there is a muslim terrorist/civilization collapse. Those are indubitable facts. The reasons and who have more options to change on their own initiative is the problem. As I said religion is dickat. It is about theology as predicated by a source compendium.

Kari posted:

Stormborn posted:

Caribj is  making a point that you miss because of your commitment to the idea that Muslims are a peaceful people. That may be the practice and intent but there is ample evidence that something is happening in the Muslim community that causes it to fracture and disintegrate with some fragments becoming morbidly anti life.

That lack of tolerance is woefully absent in the Muslim community because there is no custom of interrogating the faith as one sees in Christianity and Judaism.

There is legacy of criticism of doctrine as in the talmud where the common man can read and grasp understanding. The myth is the Koran is pure and simple and sufficiently so that it alone provides that understanding. That is bunk. It is nullified by the fact that  there many mullahs rise from the weeds claiming official status as interpreters  of the faith and  are confusing the hell out of adherents. Worse the cause adherents to become fanatical regurgitation of Quranic verses to substantiate everything and think that alone is acceptable to others not of the faith.

I therefore can see why Caribj say the faith has a responsibility to itself for creating a summoning creed above and beyond theology and ritual that is not religion specific and  invites Muslims to accept others on their own terms.

Stormie,

.......your commitment to the idea that Muslims are a peaceful people.

Show me how you scientifically, by deductive reasoning, or by any methodology of knowledge, how this is not right. You're essentially saying that I should not be committed to the idea that Muslims are a peaceful people.

On this same score you have tailored the conversation that terrorism is right off the bat related to a religion, rather than a people. In other words you conflate Islam with Arabs (and a particular strain I might add). So you lay claim to a discussion I want no part of.

 

That lack of tolerance is woefully absent in the Muslim community because there is no custom of interrogating the faith as one sees in Christianity and Judaism.

Again Stormie, you're going to have to prove this statement as you made it. You do not know what goes on at sermons and after sermons about particular spaects of Islam and passages of the Quran are read to people who gather for Prayers or Reading. But you assert with God-like confidence that there is no interrogating (actually I like to use the term inquiry as the emotive meaning of interrogation is that something is not right and not only that something is missing).

The myth is the Koran is pure and simple and sufficiently so that it alone provides that understanding.

Not so. I do not know if Kzaazzz or others addressed this here in this thread or elsewhere, but two things: (i) something being pure and sufficient does not translate to the only understanding; (ii) that understanding is indeed the object of inquiry as society evolves. You're pretending that practice of Islam today is the same as it was in the 6th and 7th centuries. They drive cars today, they have iPhones and the Internet. They don't ride camels to work. [Reminds me of Obama telling Romney about the US military not needing more 17 the century rifles and carbines].

 

I therefore can see why Caribj say the faith has a responsibility to itself for creating a summoning creed above and beyond theology and ritual that is not religion specific and  invites Muslims to accept others on their own terms.

Even if I understand this painful concoction of words, you invoke that master of societal thinking CARIBNY to assert that Muslims must not treat their religion as the supreme center of the universe and accept others and their practices. Again, show me the empirical evidence, the science or the inference where Muslims (note - not a strain of Arabs) believe in the crap about the supremacy of their religion and way of life as above all others. You take the holy scriptures too literally when it comes to the Quran, but use nuance when it comes to the Talmud and the Bible. Nah suh?

I get what you want to me to prove but you framed the question poorly. I cannot prove a negative. I can affirm that the muslim world is in disarray and it alone constitute the entirety of human displacement and migration due to internecine violence. If you accept this then my statement is affirmed.

I do not care to dispute your second query. In science, though not a rule but a healthy guide, we say a thing must of necessity be simple ( Occam's razor) If simplicity is truth then it is the path to understanding.  Driving cars has nothing to do with islam no less than burqua wearing. That has to do with interpretation. If what is to interpret is simple then what it predicates will be simple also.

That there is no god but allah means it is supreme. The same goes for Christianity and Judaism. These religions do not admit plurality of faith.  How that is emphasized in a society is a measure of its tolerance for others. In the west, the idea of pluralism of cultures while accommodating religious exclusivity is self evident. The fact that some muslim countries ie saudi Arabia do not allow other religions to be practiced openly and to a lesser extent every other muslim country speaks to how intractable these societies are. One cannot even enter Mecca and Medina if one is of another faith.

I also do not know how I nuanced the bible and the Talmud. I did not reference the bible but said Christians have since the reformation adopted the  Greek philosophical approach of doctrine and criticism of doctrine as means to strengthen their understanding of what they believe. I said the Talmud is an example of such in Judaism since it is all about argumentation to rationalize viewpoints. I also said that such a tradition is completely absent in Islam. Questioning is haram and all that is interpretation rather than exegesis. It is why everything begins the prophet said......

posted:

Kari posted:

 

On this same score you have tailored the conversation that terrorism is right off the bat related to a religion, rather than a people. In other words you conflate Islam with Arabs (and a particular strain I might add). So you lay claim to a discussion I want no part of.

 

 

Muslim terrorists in southwest Asia (Pakistan and Afghanistan). Muslim terrorists in the Philippines and Indonesia.   Muslim terrorists in Somalia (spreading to Kenya), Mali, Nigeria, and now spreading to other parts of West Africa.

A common theme is a very conservative interpretation of the Koran, in line with its practice in Saudi Arabia. And an attempt to violently impose this on other Muslims, and to destabilize non Muslim societies.  And indeed evidence is that many of these activities are financed by Saudi based entities.

Kari your attempts to tie this only to Arabs falls flat, especially as Islam is essentially an Arab religion.   Unlike Christianity which has moved way beyond its Middle Eastern origins, adapting the local cultural practices of the places where it finds itself.   Christianity that one can find in a church in Mississippi is different in style from that of an Orthodox church in Egypt.

I don't want to sound like Trump. But what the hell is going on. You have a german Iranian out to kill Turks and other muslims while he himself is muslim.

Prashad posted:

I don't want to sound like Trump. But what the hell is going on. You have a german Iranian out to kill Turks and other muslims while he himself is muslim.

This is the same issue as with Columbine. Should all young white men be banned because they account for the bulk of the mass killings in the USA?

This event had NOTHING to do with Jihadists.  Maybe it might be the issue of how Muslim immigrants in Europe are treated and the stress that this engenders. 

There is no evidence presented that this was a religiously inspired event. It was tied to bullying and the stress that this causes for introverted kids. Violent video games might have impact as well.

Many of these Iranian parents pack alot of Aryan BS into the heads of their kids. No wonder this kid may be thinking he is an Aryan white.

kari getting beat up by carib and stormy, I notice he even ask a question the wrong way, hehehehe

Prashad posted:

I don't want to sound like Trump. But what the hell is going on. You have a german Iranian out to kill Turks and other muslims while he himself is muslim.

You think these dam, Aryans, German,Iranians and Muslims and all those gun crazy rasses should just go get themselves they own piece of island somewhere out there? They could even be neighbours to your piece ah land...somewhere out there. Or were you planning on saving yourself the trouble and move to India instead?

cain posted:

kari getting beat up by carib and stormy, I notice he even ask a question the wrong way, hehehehe

???????

You rass playin stupidy nuh, hehehehe

"I get what you want to me to prove but you framed the question poorly"

Listen what ah sayin, u ask the ? de wrong way.