Smiling sisters shot dead for dancing in the rain: Pakistani girls, 15 and 16, killed along with their mother for making video which 'stained the family honour'   

ASJ, that's the work of your heroes, the Taliban/Al-Qaeda.  You should be proud.

It is tribal customs of which they live under, it will take a gazillion of years to teach them otherwise, until then what can we do. Please for the last time, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda has never been my heroes.

Take it easy bro, relax a bit and then come back, it will make a difference.

Please, stop talkin bullspit...this is plain murder, it is not a custom, this is the 21st century....this is the act of sick people who should be wiped off the face of the earth!

Stop lying and say you don't support Taliban or Al QUida...you must so proud of what happened to these girls, yu should go live among those sick barbarians and kill your fellow man, I am sure it will warm your heart!

asj

you are a real disappointment...instead of condemning this shameful act, you offer an excuse for it....if you represent how a Muslim should act, then it is a real sad day for the religion.

I have been avoiding reading all your anti American rants, because I know you feel for those folks killed over there, I understand...but your reaction to this leaves a real bad taste....really disappointed

A few drones would teach them otherwise.  They are under the influence of Al-Qaeda/Talibal wahab Islamic influences.  The two girls and their mother are from the tribal/customs.  Christianity is the only solution to such medieval teachings.

Ray, you are taking your own imaginations, and regard it as facts, if you were to ask me if I condone those type of "honor killings" definately I will tell you blatantly "No" I always say that a murder is a murder, and I do not condone murders.

The answers given was direct to the question of the Taliban/Al Qaeda being my heroes? and the answer was simply no they were not, so cut the bullcrap, do not assume that which you think, to be facts.

Whatever you may think, that is your dead, if you want to kill of all the muslims as you normally think that you should, then go ahead, all I am telling you is that Al-Qaeda/Talibal has never been my heroes or will ever be.

Your understanding seems to be dull not even comparing to a five year old, honor killings has been with these people for ages, I might know that it is not right, but you may not know that, and no matter how much Christianity you peddle, that will not solve the problem, you need to understand that when these people from the East comes to the West, they face a different way of life, which they are not used to. They apply their Eastern Custom and practice here (including "honor killing) especially when their female folks go all out towards the Western Way of Life.

I guess that I am wasting my time explaining this to you, as you will never get it......seems like to you it is an exercise in futility.

Honor killings has nothing to do with Islam . baseman even in christians practice honor killings. but only when it is done by someone with a muslim sounding name it is exposed to the world. 

BTW baseman the Bible encourages Honor Killings

And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)

Everyone irrespective of religious must condemn honor killings

In Pakistan and Afghanistan and India, "honor killing" is prevalent, also other parts of the world it happens, you may hear about some, but the majority is not reported. Re quote "The United Nations estimate for the number of honor killings in the world is 5000 per year. Many women's groups in the Middle East and Southwest Asia suspect that more than 20,000 women are honor killed in the world each year.

Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, an anthropology professor at Rhode Island college, explains how honor killings can be viewed in cultural relativist terms. She writes that the act, or even alleged act, of any female sexual misconduct, upsets moral order for the culture of interest and bloodshed is the only way to remove any shame brought about by the actions and restore social equilibrium.

Cultural implications can often be seen in public and private views of honor killings. In some cultures, honor killings are considered less serious than other murders simply because they arise from long-standing cultural traditions and are thus deemed appropriate or justifiable. Additionally, according to a poll done by the BBC’s Asian network, 1 in 10 of the 500 Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and Muslims surveyed said they would condone any murder of someone who threatened their family’s honor.

Ray, read and learn buddy, I  will not be here forever to give you a free education. Please try to learn something about "honor killing"

Whenever you do then go and look at your post and see how stupid it looks and read.

Now u gon mek de man froth at the mouth.

U know my friend, that part of the Bible was worded by Moses (one of the men Islam considered in reverence). He was a descendant from Jacob (Israel). In today's world, he would be classed as a Jew. And Mohammad quoted all the words of Moses in the Quran. 

Christainity on the other hands, tells us we should treat others expecting the same treatment meeted by them. Honour killings is not the teachings of Christ. It is an old old custom among tribal people who lived in darkness and to appease them, Islamic clerics upon invading them permitted them to carry on as it pleases them. Charlatans are every where. God's statues are very very clear. Why would God want a son to kill his parents when the same God chastised Cain for killing Abel.  

While at it we should also condemn that dam Bible, written to hold down the masses ( Ohhh Lucas would love this )

The Bible doan seem to hold you down. You so bold you can curse God and get away with it.

For you, does the devil have an existance?

 Why is this disgusting habit to be excused on "cultural" custom? Obviously they are informed by the ground of their moral underpinning, Islam, and clearly they are behaving contrary to their god since I presume ( actually I know) nothing such exist in the book.

The doctrine or sympathy to the doctrine of the Taliban or Al Queda certainly informs your belief. You would not be here everyday with your slant from Mullah TV to try to sell the idea that the US is killing women and children had that not been the case. You would speak to this "cultural" habit of the Taliban to behead women and children per their interpretation of infractions of the law and that their murder of the same group constitute to some 90 percent of all deaths in the region.

honor killing is plain murder...no matter which group does it! This is the 21st century, those who practice such should be shot on sight.

What exactly is stupid about saying honor killing is murder???

so you only believe in part of the bible

ASJ has a point, we can not impose our views on a culture that spans centuries. The change will come from within and not from outsiders screaming in horror unless they are willing to invade and do what the British did to India more than a century ago. Many horrific customs were wiped out in India during the British rule. 

it still is murder...and should not be excused

In your eyes its murder for sure, but within that culture it is considered a norm. We must respect the culture of all people. We can express our displeasure and bring sanctions against such nations but we must understand that culture is in the fabric of the society and can not be changed overnight. When I posted about the bacha bazi boys, you all recoiled in horror and claimed I was making this up, however it is part of the culture and is passed down from generation to generation. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/...ys/etc/synopsis.html

I don't recall recoiling in horror at the bacha bazi boys...I know that story pretty well..

I still maintain that those folks are uncivilized and murderers....

Nope!

You are plainly and incorrigibly silly. ASJ is an intellectual mutt. Indeed all cultures have validity but not all human practices are acceptable. We do not accept apartheid or slavery or castism because it is universally understood to be abominable practices and one must caution change because one must. We do not deny the validity of Somalian, Ethiopian and many arab and African nations but not their practices of infibulation or clitorectomy as these practices are barbaric and of necessity must be condemned as inappropriate and inhuman.

Change is not limited to coming from within. Actually, cultural transformation occurs mostly from outside. It is a matter of the fish never discovering the medium in which they live because of the ubiquity of water.

I never mentioned accepting this practice personally, we may all have our opinions but what is important is the mindset of the culture were the impropriety is happening. Slavery is not accepted in most of the world but yet it still exist, it was not eradicated.  Change must come from within not from outsiders who are outraged. The outside influences do have an impact but the people must embrace those influences. We have seen these folks go deeper and deeper into their culture the more we try to ram western values down their throats. Look how many suicide bombers exist today when it was almost unheard of 50 years ago. 

You are making an excuse ie respect for the cultural prerogatives that celebrates honor killing, disfigurement etc as punishment for infraction to male pride in a society. When it murders young girls for dancing, tolerates disfigurement by pouring acid on the face of women it is an odium to be condemned and sanction if one can. One does not say that with exposure change will come. Exposure is the external condemnation plus any other sanction one can muster to chastise these evil doers.

And how in the world did suicide bombers come into the discourse about the beheading of young girls? If you want to know inquire of its introduction by the Tamil Tigers. In any event, it has no place ere.

Yes, I know, that's why we zapped Osama and we continue to drone and zapp those wahab medievals to eternity.  This is true and honorable "honor" killings.

Have you not learnt anything from the so called  Arab spring rising? Uprising from withing? The more the west condemn, the more entrenched the archaic culture becomes as it serves as a rebellion against western values. The Pakistanis and Arabs will be even more resolved to keep their culture intact the more folks like you thumb your noses at them. Let them take care of their own problems, when they are shamed into realizing the bestiality of their actions then they will change.

Suicide bombers are a result of folks like you trying to force your values down the Muslim world's throat. 

I believe in the Lordship of Christ. The Bible is limited and mans interpretation of it requires divine inspirations. Follow Christ and u shall understand the words within its pages.

Such as?

I am surprised you would ask this question, it is in the history books and Indians would acknowledge this.

5.4 BRITISH IMPACT ON SOCIETY AND CULTURE

Indian society underwent many changes after the British came to India. In the 19

th

century, certain social practices like female infanticide, child marriage, sati, polygamy

and a rigid caste system became more prevalent. These practices were against human

dignity and values. Women were discriminated against at all stages of life and were

the disadvantaged section of the society. They did not have access to any

development opportunities to improve their status. Education was limited to a handful

of men belonging to the upper castes. Brahmins had access to the Vedas which were

written in Sanskrit. Expensive rituals, sacrifices and practices after birth or death were

outlined by the priestly class.

When the British came to India, they brought new ideas such as liberty, equality,

freedom and human rights from the Renaissance, the Reformation Movement and

the various revolutions that took place in Europe. These ideas appealed to some

sections of our society and led to several reform movements in different parts of the

country. At the forefront of these movements were visionary Indians such as Raja

Ram Mohan Roy, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Aruna Asaf Ali and Pandita Ramabai.

These movements looked for social unity and strived towards liberty, equality and

fraternity. Many legal measures were introduced to improve the status of women.

For example, the practice of sati was banned in 1829 by Lord Bentinck, the then

Governor General. Widow Remarriage was permitted by a law passed in 1856. A

law passed in 1872, sanctioned inter-caste and inter-communal marriages. Sharda

Act was passed in 1929 preventing child marriage. The act provided that it was illegal

to marry a girl below 14 and a boy below 18 years. All the movements severely

criticized the caste system and especially the practice of untouchability.

Impact of British Rule on India: Economic, Social and Cultural (1757-1857)

SOCIAL SCIENCE

Notes

The impact of the efforts made by these numerous individuals, reform societies, and

religious organisations was felt all over and was most evident in the national

movement. Women started getting better education opportunities and took up

professions and public employment outside their homes. The role of women like

Captain Laxmi Sehgal of Indian National Army (INA), Sarojini Naidu, Annie Besant,

Aruna Asaf Ali and many others were extremely important in the freedom struggle.

What does the arab spring has to do with the right or wrong of a cultural practice? Through out history, the imperative has always been to speak against a morally depraved belief. It is why we have a detailing of what should call forth community opprobrium in all of our religious books. It is also why we have laws. We censure bad conduct because we are compelled to do so if we are to have any moral moorings.

One can say the Islamic world is paying heed to the way the western universalist project is constructed, from the bottom up ie individual rights centered and not for some proverbial utilitarian benefit of a proverbial Ummah.

If indeed you were a graduate of Howard you would know from your sociology and antropology classes that concepts of right and wrong are factors of time and place. What is moral in one place can be immoral in another, there is no universal "morality" as you suggest. It's bofoons like yourself that foster hatred by imposing your values on others. Let these people determine their own fate, as a society they have to collectively come to the conclusion that these barbaric actions are wrong.

You are a nut case. The men involved in this barbarism  are sought by their local police and have been seriously condemned by their own community. That much is in evidence. 

It would be a strange world indeed if everyone for their own reason come up with unjustified beliefs or spurious belief systems to justify barbarism Christians had to contend with the idea of slavery, religious supremacy, centralized authoritarian fundamentalism and the complaint across the various communities changed because people stood up to defy the laws or the beliefs. Given the world was an amalgam of city states until the late 19th century is is clear that change happening elsewhere influenced many societies.

And while there is a rule that all cultures are valid moral relativism is not an absolutist rule. It is clear societies have distinct opposing views enough so that one would go to war to defend. The US did not say let the south have their way with slavery. It imposed emancipation on them. Luther did not bend the knees to the dictum of the Pope Leo X. Her took to pen and paper and wrote his condemnations and posted them on the church door sparking the reformation across the Christian world. Most of the world is against casteism and they all are critical of it even if doing so insult the good Brahmins who sustained it for 6000 years. The west did not like Markxism and for almost all of the 20th century the cold war waged as competing groups imposed tried to impose their views on the best system.

There are no grounds in their society or outside of their society for the murder of these young girls and their mom. That the half brother felt aggrieved at their dancing and conspired to murder them adds to the odium. That it is again a man imposing his will on a woman tops it off in terms of its depravity. If you think that it has cultural standing on any prevailing modern ethical and meta ethical theories then you are as usual, thinking like a cow.

You do know who authored that history ...right? For your information when people in the east observed basic hygiene and wore silk, the British lived in mud huts and killed each other for little or nothing. I am not denying there were and are horrific practices that need to be eliminated but your giving credit to the British is absurd.

The banning of the production of salt by the British was horrific.

Destroying the silk trade to force Indians to wear cotton imported from the UK was horrific.

300 years of the British colonial yoke was horrific.

Stop supporting your arguments with shallow google output and start using your brain with substantiated thoughts and facts.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Just as there are universal laws of physics there are universal laws of morality. We can look at honor killings since that's the topic.

Are honor killings anything other than exploitation of religious doctrine to impose male dominance?

What kind of a lunatic society would kill children for singing and dancing?

Whose honor is restored? Are we really dealing with honor or pride, shame, and control? Is this so-called honor voluntary or imposed by the the controlling part of society?

The Arab spring did not happen without external intervention - even if it was limited to the Internet that is still external.

Who determines who should intervene or who shouldn't?

No doubt the British did horrific things, however you asked for examples of the horrific customs that the British eradicated from the Indian society and I gave you a response. Now you are taking off on a tangent of a different topic. 

Think about it without emotion and you will see that I am right. There is no such concept of universal right and wrong. There are intersections of right and wrong among different cultures but not entirely. Honor killings were a norm in these nations prior to Western influences as a safeguard to the deterioration of the foundation of the culture. Society accepted these killings for centuries. There are many more examples across the world of customs that we may consider horrific, however that does not mean our opinion is the correct one. If you subscribe to the theory that morality is a function of time and place then you would still be outraged but understanding of why these things happen. 

You completely missed my point, the honor killing has been a cultural norm for centuries, if not more.  Do you really believe that the police is making a concerted effort to apprehend the suspects? Many of them support these killings as it is deep rooted in culture. Why do you think so many kerosene burnings go unpunished? There is complicit support for such retribution by society. The same with honor killings. Society must come to acknowledge the wrong in such crimes before there is change. You or I shouting from our armchairs in the west will have limited influence on the culture. The young and influential in those societies must lead the charge for change, not some atheist thousands of miles away living in the lap of relative luxury.

The British imposed far more than they eradicated, not only in India but throughout the world, to satisfy greed. Any eradication was in the pursuit of wealth, nothing more. This is not a different tangent.

You are quoting history as written by the British, written solely for the purpose of embellishing their contribution to the world while ignoring the destruction. I could take your quote apart piece by piece but suffice it to say when the British arrived in India there was no liberty, equality,

freedom and human rights in Great Britain or in Europe in general.

There is no missing any point. You are defending the indefensible. Abhorrent cultural behavior whereever they exist is subject to criticism. It is what we do. We make judgements. It is how we know what we stand for as oppose to what others stand for. If we cannot celebrate and defend what we stand for then what is our purpose? Surely it is not to live insular lives and tolerate every sort of idiocy from whomever.

You may be shouting from your armchair. I am expressing my disgust and hopefully others will and we get a butterfly effect to exorcize this atrocity from the midst of humanity. Brutality to women and children is never to be excused on any cultural imperative. Such an imperative if held by states should be forthwith feel global sanctions. If practiced by individual groups, pressure must be brought on states to eradicate such belief systems.