Bet if you ask them what they think of black people they will claim that "black people lazy" and will be proud of everything that rich Indians own.

Elite Indos didn't get their EXTREME power just based on their efforts alone.  Who put Jagdeo in power?

LMAO LMAO...You're resorting to guessing that this poor poor downtrodden woman who would be poor even in Bihar is most likely a racist who specifically hates black people and loves rich Indians.

Jesus man. We were talking about Indian Privilege. I wanna know how this Indian family has "Indian Privilege." Where is it? What does it constitute?

You're just trying to shove this unpleasant fact into your chosen narrative unsupported by the facts. You have a theory of Indian Privilege because you heard some lefties harass some white people about White Privilege and you down to saying essentially that our Indian Privilege is basically feeling good that people who look like us are living the high life.

Man I feel sooooooooo good knowing that Jagdeo is soooooooooo rich enjoying life in the Caribbean while I'm stuck in my cold NYC basement. I feel so damn privileged.

In terms of the racism and the racial exclusion that they BOTH practiced, what was the difference?

yet it is quite fashionable to paint the Burnham era as one where Indians were especially oppressed, even as blacks also suffered as the economy crumbled, and were also beaten up if it was THOUGHT that they were with the WPA.

Yet you comment that what we have today is "soft" racism.  You claim that there was more racism in the Burnham era than there is today.  Why? because the Indo dominate power structure today enables you to more easily maneuver your way around it than in the 70s when the Africans saw you only as a "coolie boy" and so excluded you?

Well change the hair texture of the victimizers and the victims and I do not see any difference today.

You would look better in your eyes and simply said that the pain that Indians suffered under Burnham they inflect today against blacks, and that revenge is normal human behavior.

.

Now as to the state.  Indians block streets and burn down a police station in the Corentyne. The PPP races to meet them.  In Linden they block a bridge THREE SHOT DEAD and several others injured.  Please don't let us go there.

You screamed about black privilege under Burnham.  How is this woman any different from the blacks of Tiger Bay, Albouystown and many other parts of Guyana in the Burnham era?

You know full well that the Indian elites project the notion of the lazy, and criminal black who can be shot down, no questions asked, and then you claim that there is not racist treatment.

There are too many instances of blacks being assaulted in Guyana, and even shot and killed by the police.  Sadly the condition of blacks in Guyana isn't that much different from what it is in the USA with its history of bigotry. 

Ok so now that you seem to think that white privilege doesn't exist in the USA, because some one can trot out pictures of impoverished whites, I can see why you don't think that Indian privilege exists in Guyana.  You think that its a "lefty" theory!  Even white WOMEN talk about while MALE privilege and these are women who sued Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, etc.  Not people likely to agree with Michael Moore.

 .  Like you said Indians hire other Indians, and so if the majority of those who are in a position to hire are Indians, then you seriously don't mean to suggest that being Indian doesn't bring advantages in Guyana in 2015.

Yet you had no problem in suggesting that black privilege existed under Burnham, despite the massive black poverty existing then.

Just admit that blacks had life sweet (at least relative to Indians) when the PNC was abusing Indians and now Indians are enjoying their revenge.  It will seem more HONEST!

I hate to even be placed in the position of seeming to defend the PPP but here is what they are and what the are not.

The PNC would actually beat and shoot members of the Indian opposition as a matter of policy. The PNC made a literal party card necessary for everything. The PNC State had a national security strategy designed to lay siege to the Indian civil population. Blacks were especially targeted for employment and government largesse. The PNC Black State was designed to maximally screw Indians and maximally benefit blacks (under Burnham of course but that part is of little relevance).

The PPP on the other hand are a bunch of kleptocrats who don't share their loot with black people. They may not hire you or promote you or make you ambassador. There is no state designed strategy to oppress black people. They may hurt your feelings. Try your nerves.

The Guyanese State is an authoritarian state. (once again as designed by blacks). The Black-dominated Guyanese Police Force seems to be trigger happy. They shoot first and arrest later. This has led to more black people getting extra judicially killed. This is not some evidence of Indian racism. This is an authoritarian police force acting in line with its nature. If these were Indian cops, I'd say you have a point. And yes I'm sure the PPP raced to the Corentyne for political reasons not because they love coolies so much but because they were concerned about political damage to their party interests.

Under the PNC, racism was at the point of a gun. Under the PPP, it's a little more polite relying more on perverting the law or ignoring it.

However, I will say that the result is a racially unjust society where yes black people are discriminated against. But I won't equate it to the extent of the threat to life and property that the PNC held over Indians.

For the same reasons, historians draw a solid line between slavery and indentureship. It is academically dishonest to equate the horrors of the two, though they had many similarities.

I will say it thusly:

Blacks had a State designed for their advancement (whether they utilized their opportunities is another matter) and enrichment while Indians scraped by and often broke the law to get by and now a segment of the Indian population dominate Guyana to their benefit. That some may view this result as just karmic vengeance, I would not be shocked. That this is a common opinion, I would be.

Looking at the fact that Indians clearly dominate leadership, and YOU ADMIT, hire their own (other Indians) AGAIN, how is that different from what Burnham did?

Under Burnham state control was centralized and engaged in ethnic patronage for blacks and ethnic exclusion of Indians.

Now we have the PPP and a private sector BOTH dominated by Indian elites, who, like you say, hire other Indians.  Seems to me as if we once again have ethnic patronage directed to those who share the same ethnicity as the dominant group and ethnic exclusion of those who come from the ethnic group which is seen as more of a threat to the power structure.

You are NOT sympathetic.  You see life through Indian eyes and refuse to see that life today is filled with the same favoring of the "in" ethnic group and exclusion of the "threatening" group.

In addition I wouldn't be so arrogant to suggest as you are that the PPP doesn't engage in its own violence.  Many have complained of threats and intimidation, and it is known that there is a goon squad, funded by the Indo elite, most of whom are tight with Jagdeo.  They were in cahoots with criminals like Roger Khan who they used to intimidate others.

Seriously.  You would look more honest if you told me that I shouldn't complain about how blacks are treated today, because revenge is normal and that blacks should be excluded as they once excluded Indians. At least that will be honest.

  And that was true in 1970.

What is true in 2015 is that we have a state machinery in cahoots with a business elite, BOTH INDIAN dominated, who engage in the SAME practice of ethnic patronage (this time for Indians) and ethnic exclusion (this time against blacks).

I seriously don't know why you wish to pretend as if the net result on the access to opportunity as defined by race was any different.  BOTH engaged in racial EXCLUSION.  Thanks to Hoyte's liberalization of the economy, the PPP cannot do so on its own, but now works with invigorated private sector.  The specific tactics might differ, but the impacts are the same.

Given that neither Walter Rodney nor many others who were victimized were Indians, and some argue that the PNC was way more violent against those blacks who it viewed as its enemies you really don't seem credible when you pretend as if this was only about race.

What was about race was who was hired, awarded contracts, or involved in decision making.  I submit that in this Burnham was NO DIFFERNT than Ramotar is today, and yet its so easy for many to call Burnham a racist, and claim that the PPP isn't, or only engages in "soft" racism.

Well tell that to the folks who they shot down in Linden!  I will change my opinion when rice farmers or sugar workers get that treatment from Ramotar.

I somehow feel like were arguing over the merits and attractions of two piles of turds.

Let me try this. The current Government has managed to utilize elections, corruption, law, economics, etc. etc. to essentially accomplish the marginalization of blacks in every sphere of public life. That is pellucidly clear. I readily concede that. I cannot however concede because to do so would be factually wrong that this was somehow some grand plan conceived and executed by Indians towards blacks as revenge. It was the natural consequence of race based government. Once you start with race based government, you get race based appointments, awarding of state contracts, a new race based oligarchy etc etc.

The PNC did all of the above utilizing the same tools plus raw coercive state power driving the fear of God into the Indian population. Indians prior to 1966 did not fear black people. This thing about Indos fearing blacks is pretty new as in newly instilled. Post-1966, it was drilled into them.

But regardless of this fine academic point about the difference between these two piles of turds, I wholeheartedly concur that the end results have surprisingly been remarkably similar in terms of disenfrachisement and marginalization. And I suspect much worse for blacks as they were/are more vulnerable with the loss of public power and the rise of the new private sector. And were less equipped to weather the storm that is Indian rule.

I concur!

Now you finally noting that the PPP turd is as nasty as the PNC turd under Burnham was.  Thet engaged in the same behaviors with the same impacts.

Yes for historical reasons blacks in Guyana were more dependent on public sector employment than were Indians (British colonial policy which aimed at destroying the class of black farmers and small traders who emerged after slavery ended).  But that doesn't change the fact that one CANNOT condemn the Burnham era as being racist without similarly condemning the Ramotar/Jagdeo era.

But what you fail to understand is that blacks had already begun to drift from primary dependence on the civil service.  They encounter racism in the Indian dominated private sector, along the same lines as they do from the PPP itself.

So if the private sector continues its behavior, even if the gov't changes we will see the same ethnic tensions continuing.  A capitalist society cannot support as large a civil service as can one which is centrally planned, and so people seek private sector employment.  What is interesting is that the examples that I have been told of about racism in employment came out of the PRIVATE sector!

You will note David Hinds' reaction to Nagamootoo being selected as the presidential candidate under an APNU/AFC alliance.  Even as he is being used to destroy the PPP, to more than a few blacks he is an Indian, and they want to know why they are being told to exchange one Indian president for another.  The fact that its election tactics doesn't ease their angst because what frustrates them isn't the PPP only, but it is the Indian elite in general, Nagamootoo being seen as one of them.

Good. Loud and rowdy argument, but we finally seem to have gotten some where.

The debate that how ever needs to happen is one of the creole vs. the Indian notion of what being a "Guyanese" is, and how it relates to ethnic identities.  All sorts of misunderstandings and ill feelings stem from this, which then leads to ethnic tensions, where this might not have been the intention.

I gave the example of the black taxi driver. Did Indians pass by him because they hate him? Most likely not, but they simply identified with the Indian drivers, and saw him as an outsider, and not part of the "family". They would likely be quite shocked that he thinks that he shouldn't be ignored merely because he isn't Indian.  And indeed might wonder about why blacks behave differently and chose the first taxi that they see.

Because he sees ethnicity as not being much more significant than one's eye color, he then interprets this as a manifestation of Indian hostility, which then puts him on the defensive.  Tell him about the PPP and his response will be that AFC Indians are no different and that there is a conspiratorial reason why they left the PPP, so not to be trusted.

Had his experiences been different, would he harbor this feelings about Indians?  Quite likely not.  But this is the base of racial voting in Guyana. because Indians will detect the fact that he is suspicious of them, so will withdraw into their own insecurities.

I hope that my point is clear.

All very good points. In case you missed it, I had said on at least one or two other threads that I found Jagdeo to be a figure who more thoroughly dominated Guyana than Burnham ever did. I think all in all he was our most powerful ruler. Even beyond our royal Governors.

Moses would have a great laugh though that anyone would see him as a member of the elite. He really really believes that lefty stuff (to his credit)

He is not of the business elite, and he is one of the few PPP leaders who isn't rich (or yuji would have let us know).  By virtue of being a leader he is part of the elite.  Just in his case a man who HAPPENS to be Indian...but then that point doesn't always transmit in ethnically paranoid societies.

Moses has not in any way looted any treasury but instead, Moses is a man hungry for power.

Let us assume for a moment that the PNC takes him in. The PNC will make a major mistake since this can also work in a very negative way for them and turn off a lot of PNC voters who might end up staying home.

All U try wide Moses deh. He going to bruk up and split de PNC.

PPP assume this will happen May 11,will decide

which party rule the homeland shock and awe

awaits the PPP.

The only shock and awe I see is when the combined AFC/PNC suffers a massive defeat as a result of merging both parties.

I wish to remind you that the AFC has no support base left.

PNC will suffer a major setback and might end up being a fractured party if Moses joins the PNC. The PNC does not trust Moses.

If they trusted him they would have accepted him as Speaker over Tortman.

I completely agree that there needs to be a long overdue debate over what kind of nation are we and how should construct a "national" identity. We have this undefined or ill defined one at best. Guyana was never engineered for the people who actually live there. It was decreed by rulers who wished to "mould" us. People are moulded by history and habits not decrees.

Let me iterate here that Indian People came to Guyana with a sense of nationhood fairly well defined in a classical sense. There are also blacks and Amerindians who claim other sources of national legitimacy. These claims are what should be moulded into a more or less coherent and cohesive Guyanese identity. We are probably Three Peoples with one nationality. Who knows!

Like most immigrant groups, we arrived in a strange land and huddled together for safety and survival and developed traits and habits to facilitate the same. Today, some of those habits and customs may no longer be necessary and should be extinguished. And in some instances may be highly negative in a multiethnic state. I can see how some of our customs and habits (termed "clannishness") should bend for the greater good.

I thank you for being fair (this time) to Indian actions not necessarily being taken out of a determination to punish black people. Though the end result may very well be just that.  I also readily concede that most if not all people will not care to go into the nuances of such behavior and will inevitably reach for the simplest negative conclusions.

We have never designed a system for the Guyanese Peoples as they currently exist. We must do that. We don't need a philosophical state or the state born of political theory. We need a pragmatic state crafted to our unique history, habits (good and bad), needs, and aspirations.

IMPORTANT CORRECTION:

Please permit me to correct this. While it has been the custom in Guyana hitherto for the Presidential Candidate of a Political Party in Guyana to also serve in the dual capacity of being the named "Representative of the List", apparently there is nothing in the Constitution or the Representation of the People Act to require this.

On the contrary, a plain reading of the Representation of the People Act clearly allows for the designated Presidential Candidate and the Representative of the List for the same party to be different persons. The Representative of the List is only required to be a candidate for MP.

Therefore, Nagamootoo can be the AFC-APNU Presidential Candidate and Granger can hold the absolute legal authority over the coalition as the named Representative of the List.

I say this because it seems like this turned out to be a crucial part of the actual price of Nagamootoo's Presidential candidacy. Nagamootoo will get to be President, but under some rather stringent conditions backed up by the full force of the law.

With Granger as the Representative of the electoral list, he will decide how many Indians are chosen.  As there are more blacks in the top brass of the AFC, more blacks will be chosen than Indians.  

Moses will not  be able to implement his communistic ideas.

I don't care. And neither does anyone of my generation. I'm ok with a 100% non-coolie extraction of MPs. They can even find every homeless person in Guyana and make them MP. And that would still be an improvement over this perpetual Rum Shop Raj.

You truly underestimate how much your party is HATED!

To quote my Learned Colleague DG..."Irrelevant!"

Moses' sole job is to expose, oppose, and depose on May 11th.

Once he does that, we'll figure out the rest.

That was the objective of the United force in 1964. History could repeat itself..

It could. And it will. The part about the PPP having their balls cut off that is by a united opposition.

With Indians gleefully assisting the PNC to bury ayuh.

Ah! yes! The dirty Indians.  I haven't forgotten them.  Do you know what happened to the dirty Indians during Burnham era.  During the social gatherings at congress place, the men were sent out of town on errands and their women were left to entertain the blackmen.

You must have been hiding between the folds of nuff vaginas from 1964 to 1992 to be privy to such intimate details.

I can neither attest to nor deny the veracity of your claims.

I hope that you aren't implying that Indo Guyanese are some "immigrant" group entitled to gran group rights from themselves alone on the basis of some national identity which excludes others.  Given that few Indo Guyanese know a thing about India, aside from Bollywood, that is a joke and a crass attempt to excuse xenophobic behavior towards non Indians.

So tell me why does Trinidad with a similar demographic mix, not have this problem to the same degree that we do.  A TRINIDADIAN is a TRINIDADIAN and that doesn't seem to pose a problem.

Carnival comes and EVERY Trinidadian group, class, color, race, and religion, participate. 

Trinidad and Guyana are both alike given that they are populated by Indians and Africans, BOTH being large MINORITY groups.  No one thinks that Trinidad will collapse on the basis of racial tensions.  This is a real risk for Guyana.

What Trinidad has that Guyana lacks, is a strong civic society which binds all Trinidadians into a common fate, and a strong cultural event where Trinidadians of all elements devise their own way to be engaged in.

This isn't to say that they don't have tensions.  But the debate doesn't arise to arguments about defining nationality.  Its about ensuring that Trinidadians of all races, skin colors, social classes and from all regions have equal access to opportunity.

We can't even agree as to what a "Guyanese" is. And we have one group with few ties to the others, who they define as outsiders with a virtual status of being "foreigners"..

Afro Guyanese primarily identify as GUYANESE. Cease trying to attempt to perpetrate that we have the some notion that being "Guyanese" is only about being born in a country called Guyana, that sadly many Indians do.

Indians have to have a conversation amongst themselves. Are they Indians born in Guyana, and therefore disconnected from other Guyanese.  OR are they Guyanese who have Indian ancestry and some cultural retentions.

Guyana will NEVER survive or thrive if the largest ethnic group ropes itself off from the others, with some notion of being some perpetually immigrant group involved in a sojourn from India to the USA, with Guyana only being a stop on the way.

The issue with Amerindians is completely different so don't try to use them as an excuse either.

Caribj does turn in his bed and on his chair everyday and will NOT stop turning until a "COOLIE" is no longer President of Guyana. If Moses become PNV President he will jump in front of an A Train, believe me.

Shaitaan these comments are a manifestation of feelings of emasculation that many Indian men over 45 have.  This perpetual fear of the black male predator, and their inability as men to protect their wives and daughters.  This paranoia that their wives and daughters might be attracted to thus hyper masculine black male, who might treat them better.

We have even heard that during the Burnham era on the Corentyne that at lunch time black men used to rape Indian women on the road.  Yes the Corentyne where 90% of the population is Indian!  Clearly this is a lie, but clearly many Indian men above a certain age need to believe in it.

You will commit suicide if a black man becomes president.  Especially if this is because sizeable numbers of Indians voted for him.

You and I both know that Nagamootoo isn't going to be president, because people like YOU will never support him joining an alliance with a majority black party.

A blackman of the WORST kind was President for over 20 years when I was living there. Go Figure!!

And given that you are a racist it then condemns all blacks to being unfit to be president.

If that is what your Pea brain allows you to conclude, then who am I to ask that you get a brain surgeon. You were born with a Pea brain and so you are limited in your understanding.

The fact that you even raise a black man who died 30 years ago shows your intent to condemn all blacks as being unfit to lead.

But then what can I expect from a die hard member of the Indo KKK (PPP)?

Weren't you with Sidney King burning Indian Houses in Buxton and Annandale.

seriously . . .?