Politics aside. Nice read.

Do you think that it is a fair account?  It seems to have been well researched.

carib

You will disagree with me on this but if Granger offers an apology on behalf of the Burnham and Hoyte dictatorship then Guyana will start to heal. 

My resentment is towards a PNC dictatorship. I experienced the discrimination and to leave assets worth millions to flee from a PNC dictatorship was not an easy thing.

As Ray said, take some fresh air.  Then think about the suffering that Indos experienced under the PNC and you will understand what I am speaking about.

Does Afro Guyanese need an even playing field ? Yes. The best minds in the PNC and PPP hold the key to Guyana's racial unity. Some day you and I can have a maubey and red bread (salara) together.

If Granger offers an apology, you propagandist would have a field day with putting on all kind of spin. This call for an apology is to distract from the PPP cronyism and corruption. If Granger apologizes what next? The PPP is trembling with fear of a pending election.

What is there to apologize for?? Guyana was a far safer place under the PNC than it currently is under the PPP.

I am hoping to read the wise Mr Gilbakka comment on this article. 

I dont know which "Ray" you are referring because I dont see Raymond addressing any posts towards me.

Almost every post on this matter I ahve said BOTH have suffered racism.  The issue is that I acknowledge what Indians have suffered at the hands of the PNC.

YOu refuse to acknowledge what acknowledge what blacks have suffered at the hands of the PPP.

So it is YOU who need to do serious thinking on this issue.

If you ar4e so bent on an apology (which I think is a waste of time) let PNC and PPP apologize at the SAME TIME (given that you all are so bent upon apology).  So neither group is going to feel that they didnt get an acknowledgement of the racism against them.

You see if the PNC aplogizes to Indians and blacks dont also receive an apology it then becomes the belief, that you Chief Kishan B, Kaz and Kari, have that black people have no more need to feel abused by the PPP than Indians have becomes enshrined.  And this is exactly why large numbers of blacks will object, and might take their ran=ge out against Granger in the polls.

If both are sinners than BOTH need to repent.

Hey maybe my views about the PPP might change too?  Did you ever think of that?  With the black/mixed vote almost equal to the Indian vote its not only Indian voters who matter.  The main issue is that many mixed Guyanese are too young to vote, but the trend has been for mixed people to support the PNC.  With Africans at 32% of the voters clearly they pull mixed voters to reach their consistent 41%.

We both know that both the PPP and PNC are incompetent and corrupt.  So a swing vote on BOTH sides will be need to keep them "honest".

Mr CaribJ that is fair.

Granger didn't write this piece. TK is getting hammered on Facebook for posting the same. This is only one of negative responses TK received.

What's your point, wanker, in posting this? Is this your way of kissing Granger's ass... the same Granger who headed an Army that took the lives of innocent, protesting Indians, in their struggle for free and fair elections?
Are you trying to boost his 'scholarly' credentials here... the same Granger who is a falsifier of Guyana's history?
There is nothing new in what he writes above. The authority with regards to Indian Immigration and its aftermath in Guyana are Dr Cheddi Jagan, Dr Basdeo Mangru, Dr David Chanderbali, and the current professor at UG, Tota Mangar. Granger is just regurgitating here what others have pain-stakingly researched. Does that make Granger a Historian?
You're such a kiss-ass... and yu call yourself a 'Professor'?

Sir,

I found it on FB  Guyana Message Board. What is your problem? Envious because Mr Jagdeo or Mr Ramotar produce something like that about East Indians? It is an old magazine article by Mr Granger. 

Mr Cobra,

Is Dr Cheddie Jagan an authority on Indian immigration? 

My point is that TK is getting hammered for being a hypocrite and you're an associate hypocrite to even talk about Indians who suffered at the hands of David Granger and his hooligans.

Don't LIE. That was not your point.

Nothing political here, just a historical note: Granger said "But they (Indians) had come as free persons from functioning villagesocieties and economies. When their contracts (indentures) expired, they were able to resumetheir original occupations and recreate near-typical traditional Indian village life in their adopted homeland. "

There needs to be mention of the Indian Indentureds' Kala Pani passage (the Indian's version of the African Slaves' "Middle Passage". There ought to be reference to the Cat-o-Nine whippings and the logies, etc.

Mits, I'm reminded of that disclaimer in a Wall Street trader-broker commercial, to wit, "Past performance is not a good predictor of future behavior". You may have good reasons for knowing in advance of how people behave in different circumstances given past record (you could make millions ).

You ask "what next?" after a Granger hypothetical apology for the PNC sins of the past after saying it is to distract from the PPP cronyism. You also assert that the "PPP is trembling with fear of a pending election", with the confidence of a clairvoyant whose past record is spot on.

HEHEHE When I stated here over and over that the Chap is the Master ASS KISSER and would do ANYTHING Fuh Minista Wuk, some Al YUh attacked me.

Anywhere TK goes, he's getting hammered for selling out Indians to the PNC. And this JB is an accomplice to this bastard, TK and the PNC who raped Indian women and their daughters.

What an ignorant man you is. 

You are losing your cool? Why are you vex? Vex Mr Granger know more about your history than you, Mr Jagdeo and Mr Ramotar know? 

And you IS who???

Have you start to drink XM cheap rum this early friday? Please take your pay checque home to your family. 

rEMEMBER I HAVE TO DRINK BEFORE I COME TO YOUR HOUSE TONIGHT. yuH SEY YUH LIKE WHEN THE HOUSE AH SHAKE LIKE eARTHQUAKE DOES DO.

You are right that Granger knows more about Indians than we are. That is because he was screwing our wives and children in broad day light and you seems to like it, and therefore, you're endorsing it along with TK.  

Cheap Rum + XM = Impotence 

Why yu so insecure? Don't distrust your wife. Treat her like a queen. Dont let insequity get the better of you. 

yuH GUN SING AGAIN TONIGHT "gIMME MOE LEH MEH GO jHONNY, GIMME MOE LEH MEH GO"

Let me tell you something woman, Granger will never get the satisfaction to ever be president of Guyana. Mark my word for it. You and TK will have to suck salt after that. This is my last advise for you today.

Don't be angry. I dont know about Mr TK but I will still run a business if APNU or AFC win or not. I will have a 2000 USD cognac this weekend. My family in this to get rid of the communist and evil PPP. 

While the conditions for Indian (and other) indentures was abominable, and there is this increasing tendency to compare it with African slavery consider this.

1.  Indians came of "free will", even if coerced and provided inaccurate information.  African slaves were brought against their free will, sold by various African states to European slave traders.  Africans were stacked in the ships like pieces of wood, whereas Indians had free movement, even if conditions were overcrowded and unhygienic, resulting in many deaths.

2.  Indians, though limited in rights, with few freedoms during their indenture period, were treated as humans.  African slaves were listed as property, alongside farm machinery and animals.  Indians lost their freedoms for a specified contract period.  African slaves had no rights that the courts

would respect, in fact werent even consider worthy of using the courts appeal against how they were treated.

3.  Africans were punished brutally for practising their culture, whereas the practise of their cultrure by Indians was ignored, provided that it didnt "disturb" "decent"  citizens. 

I can go further but it is clear that the treatment of the Indian was vastly different from that of the African slave.  If people wish comparisons then they should compare with how the working class of 19th Europe were treated.  But to pretend as if there is requivalency between how the indentures (Indian, African, Chinese and Portuguese) wer treated vs. the African slaves is to complete show ignorance of what Trans Atlantic slavery was about.

What people should however remember is, unlike the older colonies like Jamaica, and Barbados, a not insignificant % of Africans arrived in Guyana and TRinidad, either as indentures, or as people rescued from the illegal transport of slaves to Cuba after the Slave Trade was abolished (1807) and Slavery itself was abolished in phases (1834-38).

ah ANOTHER 200 us COGNAC TO KNACK TONIGHT WHEN I COME.

The sex was consensual so what is your issue.  Any way I dont hear you complaining about all those country girls recruited to work in G/twn who ended up either having to give it up to the boss, or made into street workers.  Indian men were guilty in most cases.

I doan think dem white overseers suddenly had a change of heart in whipping their new labourers as soon as the Africans leff the plantations. As a matter of fact, the 1838 group, perhaps were treated far worse than any slave of the 1830's. Too many Anti-Slavery groups were keeping a close watch on the planters on what they did to African Slaves. It was so horrible for the Kulies, that Emancipated Africans in the vicinity of Vreed-en-hoop, Vreistein and the other estate(the name skips me right now) were obliged to give testimony of what they saw inflicted upon the kulies. It must have been disturbing to the Africans to be appauled by it. They had a compassionate heart-and still believe Afroes are a compassionate people.

CribMan, I don't know why you are predisposed to write the things you do when it comes to the condition of Africans and Indians in Guyana. I was at pains to say that my contribution in this thread started with "Nothing political here, just a historical note:"

I then quoted a passage from the article that stated a fact that I did not dispute - Indians came as free persons. I continued by saying that the Indians had their version of the Middle passage and had Cat-o-Nine tail whippings. Now there is nothing there to construe that the Indian Kala Pani passage was similar in its horror and cruelty as the African Slave experience, nor did the Cat-o-Nine reference insinuates that the Indentured plantation condition was as brutal and inhumane as the Slave plantation treatment.

You then went on to write a lengthy point-by-point exposition to conclude that somehow I'm making an equivalency to the two experiences. Man, its pointless engaging you on this.

CribMan, I believe you have a problem with English Comprehension as this excerpted post continues to flail away (Don Quixote-esque) that somehow others like myself want the PNC to apologize and the PPP to get off scotch-free like Angels. It is simple: the "Apology" was stated as a technique to pry away a disaffected PPP base in some numbers that would make them a true minority party (and I hear echoes of that other English Comprehension failure D2/Stubborn about 1 seat under 50% being a minority already). We don't care to have the PPP apologize. When another government is in power and the PPP continues to lose and have a changed party and continues to not gain votes THEN we would be telling them about apologizing for the drug-runnings, the extra-judicial killings and not advancing the Guyana economy. Comprehension anyone?

You afre not going to budge me from my position do dont even try.  I have said my piece.  You have been unable to refute my argument, so you need to let it go.

One cannot have a situation where TWO groups feel abused, but only have one apologize.  Had you addressed that point then we would have been able to carry this further, but you are stuck on your point even though SEVERAL people here have told you that it isnt workable given our history of ethnic insecurity, manifested by our slavish "loyalty" to two political parties who NOBODY likes.

Until you address the possible reaction of a significant part of the African vote, who arent demanding any apologies for anyone (NEITHER THE PPP NOR THE PNC), and this includes people like David Hinds, then you ae4 completely missing the point.

YOU might not think that this is about blacks (the PNC) grovelling to Indians (the PPP) but this is how it is seen.  Because aside from Freddie Kissoon and a few others, we havent heard a body of Indian opinion address the issues faced by Africans the way that people like Walter Rodney, David Hinds, Andaiye, Eusi, and others did about Indians and their treatment by the PNC AND the African elites.

D2 and Gilbakka told you this, and neither are black, so it will be hard for you to prove that their reaction was emotional.

So go back and retool and come back with an idea that doesnt give blacks the impression that their claims of discrimination by the PPP/Indo elites, much as you demand that an apology by the PNC to get Indian support is needed.

Indeed, given that the two voting basis are almost equal in size, what makes appeading one group more important than another.  The PPP is guaranteed 45% and needs to claw a few blacks and Amerindians to their side.  The PNC knows that black and black identified mixed voters guarantees  them the 40%. Not a big difference. If blacks dont vote then that will offset any switch by Indians to opposition parties, as we saw in 2006, when despite a decline in Indian voting, the PPP INCREASED their share of the vote.

Kari if blacks dont vote the PPP takes the parliament.  Its that simple. 

Kari people of all stripes are telling you an apology is not necessary and in fact will NOT happen.

There happen to exist many people within the PNC who think that Burnham is a hero.  Let Granger pull that off and there will be an instant rage within the PNC.  It will be Hammie and Hoyte again.  And yes, the infighting will make yuji and company quite happy.

Ironically the PPP are the only people who will benefit from your plan.  It is evident to me that you have NO IDEA of the complexities which exist among African and black identified mixed Guyanese.  There are many fractures.

There is little or no trust of Indo-Guyanese in the PNC.  Carib's distrust of Kari's call for an apology clearly reflects how Africans in the PNC feel about Indians and the PPP. We have come a long but we still have long journey to get to the point of trust. Getting over the PNC syndrome is hard for Indos. There is even mistrust for anti-PPP Indians in the PNC as is clearly the case here with Kari. 

i think he left out one more profession the indian people bring to guyana,the ppp government inherit it,civil society call it thiefing