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Originally Posted by redux:
Originally Posted by Brian Teekah:
There is BIG BIG risk with the Cummingsburg Accord, but which is better, a clean break with the APNU or 5 more years of Bharat tiefing?

no, there is not . . . enough with the scaremongering

In any coalition there is risk.  

 

The AFC and APNU most likely have different interpretations of this agreement.  The AFC likely over estimates the amount of latitude that they will be allowed to operate unilaterally by the PNC, should the coalition wins.  The PNC likely under estimates the fact that the AFC will see itself as a co partner and not as a junior partner.

 

This is especially as even WITHIN the PNC and the AFC there are different factions with their own competing interests.

 

Your response would look more intelligent if you agreed that there was risk, but that you predict that both Granger and Nagamootoo possess the political maturity to convey to each other, and to the various factions within their own parties that potential conflicts will be managed appropriately.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by redux:
Originally Posted by Brian Teekah:
There is BIG BIG risk with the Cummingsburg Accord, but which is better, a clean break with the APNU or 5 more years of Bharat tiefing?

no, there is not . . . enough with the scaremongering

In any coalition there is risk.   The AFC and APNU most likely have different interpretations of this agreement.  The AFC under estimates the amount of latitude that they will be allowed to operate unilaterally by the PNC, should the coalitions wins.

in most every real choice in life there is downside risk

 

on any rational scale, this one is low, and the potential payoff for Guyana is once-in-a-century transforming

 

the hysterics are, frankly, annoying

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Jay Bharrat:

The Coalition has made several statements on policy.

 

Once you stop the thieving, there will be more money for national development projects with the working poor at the center of our focus, not trickle down economics of the parasitic bourgeoisie with the crumbs falling from the masters' tables.

Such an idealist.  Listen there will be corruption within the coalition, as there is within any political system.  You hope that it will be less blatant than the current Grand Theft which the PPP is currently engaged in.

 

The "parasitic" bourgeoisie is going to fund both the PPP and APNU AFC, given that no one can predict who the winner will be.  They will exert significant influence, regardless as to who the winner might be. 

 

One can hope that APNU AFC will inspire confidence by operating with greater transparency than is the case with the PPP, reducing the levels of blatant crony capitalism which currently occurs.

FM
Originally Posted by Jay Bharrat:

The Coalition will have to do better because the PPP will be a strong Opposition.

how much you want the collation to do,is the guyanese dumb,blind and stupid,you voting for the ppp because of your race then you call your family overseas to send for you because things is bad.we will see how mature the guyanese become in this election,i say this election will make it of break it,if the ppp win guyana will become a full blown dictatorship 

FM
Originally Posted by redux:
 

in every choice in life there is downside risk

 

on any rational scale, this one is low,

Why is it low? 

 

Not that long ago there was so much contention within the PNC that physical blows were exchanged, and a gun was discharged.  And that was WITHIN the PNC. 

 

We heard rumors of similar, even if less dramatic tensions within the AFC.  Indeed HM_Redux ranted about how selfish the black AFCites were not that long ago.  This suggesting some tension between the Hughes/Trotman wing of the AFC and the former PPPites brought in with Nagamootoo.

 

 

Does this mean that there will be fighting from the beginning? Doubtful.

 

But obviously this is a coalition of people who were  formerly mortal enemies, and are only together as they feel that this is the only way to get rid of the PPP.  So to say that the risk is low is quite naÃŊve. 

 

There will be some PNCites who will feel that Granger gave away too much, given that at least 80% of the votes will be won in PNC strongholds.

 

There will be some AFCites (former PPPites) who will retain distrust for a large segment of the PNC.

 

When Nagamootoo makes his various appointments expect rancor if PNC members think that the gov't is too AFC oriented, especially of Nagamootoo relies heavily on the PPP refugee wing of the AFC.

 

So there is definite medium to long term risk.

FM
Originally Posted by Kari:

Just saying the other side is bad won't deliver governance. One has to work for it. Show how you're different in policies and vision. So far it's PPP (corrupt); APNU (fear of old rampaging PNC) and AFC (home of disenchanted PPP and PNC). I'm afraid I'm not seeing the new course for a Guyana from anyone and you know the PPP has the incumbency factor as well as money and organization.

I read this and I don't see why Redux is having a heart attack.  There is no evidence of any support for the PPP here.  There is just pragmatism, and this is what rules the world, not idealism.

 

Indeed listening to summaries of the Linden even I think that you just about sum it up. 

 

I have yet to hear of any solution from the AFC as to how it plans to solve the problems of the rice and sugar industries. APNU mischievously carved those problems out of areas over which they will have control, so it will be an Indian vs. Indian battle if these problem remain unsolved.  I can already see Granger suggesting that folks must speak to Nagamootoo.

FM
Originally Posted by redux:

 

 

i see absolutely no need to waste my time on such a fool's errand

Redux the AFC will be responsible for agriculture.  Rice is in huge problems as is sugar.  With the softening of gold prices, those industries once again become quite important.

 

Tell us how the AFC plans to solve the problems faced by many on those industries?  A rabid AFC supporter like you must definitely know this.

FM
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by redux:
 

in most every real choice in life there is downside risk

 

on any rational scale, this one is low, and the potential payoff for Guyana is once-in-a-century transforming

 

the hysterics are, frankly, annoying

Why is it low? 

 

Not that long ago there was so much contention within the PNC that physical blows were exchanged, and a gun was discharged.  And that was WITHIN the PNC. 

 

We heard rumors of similar, even if less dramatic tensions within the AFC.  Indeed HM_Redux ranted about how selfish the black AFCites were not that long ago.  This suggesting some tension between the Hughes/Trotman wing of the AFC and the former PPPites brought in with Nagamootoo.

 

 

Does this mean that there will be fighting from the beginning? Doubtful.

 

But obviously this is a coalition of people who were  formerly mortal enemies, and are only together as they feel that this is the only way to get rid of the PPP.  So to say that the risk is low is quite naÃŊve. 

 

There will be some PNCites who will feel that Granger gave away too much, given that at least 80% of the votes will be won in PNC strongholds.

 

There will be some AFCites (former PPPites) who will retain distrust for a large segment of the PNC.

 

When Nagamootoo makes his various appointments expect rancor if PNC members think that the gov't is too AFC oriented, especially of Nagamootoo relies heavily on the PPP refugee wing of the AFC.

 

So there is definite medium to long term risk.

alyuh try deh busying y'allself with petty what ifs, every which way whatever scenario speculations and hand wringing

 

perhaps if you had the intellectual wherewithal to step outside and see the big picture, u would understand (as i posted elsewhere) that what really matters is the overturning of the system we have lived with since 1964

 

this is bigger than the AFC, APNU, Moses, Khemraj, Nigel, Granger or PPP/Ramotar/Jagdeo for that matter

 

indeed sir, IT MATTERS NOT IF THE COALITION BREAKS UP AFTER WINNING OFFICE! what matters is letting the genie of new politics out of the bottle . . . something the status quo warriors are cleverly battling to prevent for as long as possible

 

best case scenario is a re-written constitution, meaningful coalition politics, transformative governance, properly independent, democratic institutions and the end of the criminal state . . . i'll take any one of those for a start!

 

looking at the potential upside . . . exactly what is the downside you envision that could be worse than what we have seen unfold before our eyes this past decade and a half?

 

how much more punctuation than Crum-Ewing! do you need?

 

am i clear now?

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by redux:

 

i call it as i see it

 

Kari is a smart fellow . . . he does himself no credit with the flimsy, anti-common sense stuff he throws up to rationalize '4 more years' of mafiya PPP rule

 

he is not some low-information person that needs to be brought along

 

i see absolutely no need to waste my time on such a fool's errand

Redux the AFC will be responsible for agriculture.  Rice is in huge problems as is sugar.  With the softening of gold prices, those industries once again become quite important.

 

Tell us how the AFC plans to solve the problems faced by many on those industries?  A rabid AFC supporter like you must definitely know this.

u give me too much credit bro . . . i am neither AFC insider, Nostradamus nor "rabid" (no foamin-at-the-mouth antibodies were found with my last blood test, thank gawd)

 

my post was about none of these things u throw up here

 

"fool's errand" simply references me declining to be in the 'winning over' business with smartman like Kari

 

why is that so hard . . .?

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Demerara_Guy:

The Cummingsburg Accord is simply a personal general description of what may generally exist with the PNC and AFC merger.

 

The gist of the agreement guarantees the transition of former PNC members in the AFC to become full members again of the PNC.

Do you figure out this from your personal experience as a PNC engineer?

sachin_05

Redux, any sports team has reserves that play as hard as they can to sharpen the skills of the players who represent the team. The coach does not ridicule the reserves for pushing the team, it congratulates it. If there are people here who want to see the backs of this PPP Administration but want to make the team that is going to replace it as good as it can be or to give it the best chance to win, then praise them. Do not attempt to characterize your interaction with them as fool's errand. Appreciate the contributions for what they are, and not for what you want them to be.

 

Indeed praise the AFC. Praise APNU. Criticize the PPP. But face the reality of the challenges that Shaitaan and Caribny point out. The track record is there. The demographics are there. The Emigration pattern is there. The psychological factor is there. The race pathology still exists. The absurd irrationality is manifest. Put them all together and show the AFC-APNU coalition how to overcome these challenges. That's better than entreaties of wordy irrelevance.

Kari
Originally Posted by redux:
 

alyuh try deh busying y'allself with petty what ifs, every which way whatever scenario speculations and hand wringing

 

 

My dear sir as you get stuck in the mud as usual, I am sure that even Granger and Nagamootoo have their own apprehensions about how the coalition will work, assuming that they win of course.  This is true of EVERY single coalition.

 

As to the new constitution.  Hmmm.  It was a PNC constitution, and enjoying the fruits of power I suspect they will not see changing it a priority.

 

Maybe the PPP may find Jesus, Allah, or whomever and suddenly realize that the constitution ill serves them as an opposition party.  But then I suspect playing mischief, with an aim to disrupt the coalition, will be their chosen method to get back into power.  The PPP will remain the party with the ability to get more votes than any other singular party, and so will have incentive to break up the coalition, or at least try to.

 

So being practical, and given that a 2/3 vote is necessary for a constitutional change, I suspect that you have a rather long wait for that.

 

The PPP and APNU will each win over 1/3 of the vote.  I really don't see these sworn enemies cooperating over anything.  The PNC fresh with power that they haven't had for over 22 years.  And the PPP being hysterical with rage that the PNC must have obviously "stolen" the election, as there is no way that they PPP can lose.  After all Guyana belongs to the PPP, so they think.

 

I suggest that APNU and the AFC create a more transparent way of governance, host LGE, and focus on providing a more inclusive economy less beholden to new money elites.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by redux:
 

 

 

u give me too much credit bro . . . i am neither AFC insider,

You certainly act as if you are rabid, the way you behave should any one say anything other than full gushing support for the AFC.  So it is natural to assume that you are fully aware of what the AFCs plans are. 

 

Does it not strike you as weird that one must be an insider to know what the AFCs plans are for the second and third largest industries in Guyana.  Especially as its relevance is totally tied to grabbing votes from those who earn a living in these industries.

 

If the AFC hasn't voiced what it plans to do, after it has already announced that it will handle agriculture, should the coalition win, then why will the AFC, or you, think that they will win support from rice farmers and cane cutters?

FM
Originally Posted by Kari:

. Put them all together and show the AFC-APNU coalition how to overcome these challenges. That's better than entreaties of wordy irrelevance.

Redux is like the parent of a lazy child, who praises the kid, even when no homework is done, because he wants to show that he loves the child.

 

Redux needs to understand that constructive criticism helps APNU and the AFC much more than does pretending that they are perfect.

 

Shaitaan's hysteria reflects how many Indians think, and the AFC in particular, needs to be reminded of this as it will make them work harder and be more innovative in wooing these voters to its side.

 

I fear that some will look at the rumors of what the demographics are which suggest 40% Indian in 2012.  Yet the PPP only lost majority rule by 5k votes.  Obviously the Indian vote is much higher than census numbers indicate, for the reasons which Shaitaan and I have outlined.

FM
Originally Posted by Kari:

Redux, any sports team has reserves that play as hard as they can to sharpen the skills of the players who represent the team. The coach does not ridicule the reserves for pushing the team, it congratulates it. If there are people here who want to see the backs of this PPP Administration but want to make the team that is going to replace it as good as it can be or to give it the best chance to win, then praise them. Do not attempt to characterize your interaction with them as fool's errand. Appreciate the contributions for what they are, and not for what you want them to be.

 

Indeed praise the AFC. Praise APNU. Criticize the PPP. But face the reality of the challenges that Shaitaan and Caribny point out. The track record is there. The demographics are there. The Emigration pattern is there. The psychological factor is there. The race pathology still exists. The absurd irrationality is manifest. Put them all together and show the AFC-APNU coalition how to overcome these challenges. That's better than entreaties of wordy irrelevance.

kari, i regard what you and caribny are trying to do here as distorting and infamous

 

i came to this thread not to 'praise up' the coalition' as u would have people believe, but to:

 

(i) call out Jay Bharrat on his nonsense that embracing the coalition is a "big, big risk"

 

(ii) call you out on your weak, status quo defending "I'm afraid I'm not seeing the new course for a Guyana from anyone" . . . said with a straight face and all

 

what u are doing is in line with your old line that we should tolerate 4-5 more years of PPP mafiya rule . . . the stars not being aligned properly for change right now, etc., etc.

 

no sir, u are not "pushing the team" . . . you are undermining the coalition effort on the not-so-sly much as ksazma does in a more up front way

 

i will continue to call it as i see it . . . with all due respect

FM
Last edited by Former Member

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