well, let me pellucid here shaitaan, u are as unqualified as i am to lecture Moses Nagamootoo on the politically correct conventions of alyuh idle, divisive, nouveau Indian nationalism of the radical Hindutva kind

it is instructive that you chose to 'respond' with a smarmy blast at my supposed 'inadequate' ancestry and ignore what i pointed out about Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, etc.

why is that?

one gets away with your kind of klowning only for a while; shit catches up with u eventually

I always hesitate to respond to your silly sophistry on every issue. It's your bread and butter on GNI.

This term "South Asian" is an invented term which largely seeks to placate the other states of the Indian Subcontinent who are not called India and who for different reasons are loathe to be confused with India like Pakistan.

The fact is that we are are some polyglot Hispanic-type people. We are "Indian."

We are racially "Indian." The reason that we were never classified formally in the 19th century by our British overlords as "Indian" was primarily for political reasons and for reasons of scientific racism.

Guyanese Indians do not largely know of this "South Asian" identity or would even care to use it because we have no affiliation or affinity to any entity that came into being post-1947. It is an empty meaningless term.

But we all live in reality, there is a notion of what a typical Indian looks like. We can all recognize each other with rare exception. So an Indian race exists.

The fact that I'm arguing with you over whether or not "Indians" are a race is beyond believable to me. You question our right to be or you're just engaging in some pointless sophistry.

All Guyanese Indians must be under some mass delusion or misapprehension in thinking they are racially Indian. My mother, my father, my grandparents, my great-grandparents. All aweh wrang? Are we not able to self-define and self-identity without the approbation of redux and the Colonial Office?

If we ain't Indian, then is we Black or white or mongoloid?

.....so please explain.

I see the inclination to be vituperative continues unabated. Incessant rambling that borders on malapropism wells like a volcanic eruption with aimlessness. I don't know why Shaitaan even engage your shallow vacuousness.

you are making a modern political argument, and that is your right

but who are u to pour scorn on those who choose not to embrace the nationalism of country INDIA for whatever POLITICAL reasons?

again, nothing wrong with self-identifying as "Indian" if that means race to you . . . tens, perhaps a couple hundred million on the sub-continent and elsewhere simply disagree with that!

people use "African" and it has wide acceptance primarily because the term is not political . . . imagine if "Congolese" or "Ethiopian" (actually used in BCE times) were being pushed as the accurate descriptor of Negroid peoples wherever they are found

unbunch your Hindutva panties lil and relax

Redux is on some fool's errand to prove that there is no race of people who are "Indian" and if such a people does exist they should be properly called "South Asian."

This is redux's aloo v. potato argument. We cannot call people who are native to the Indian Subcontinent "Indian" (like Guyanese people ancestrally from the Subcontinent who themselves think they are members of the "Indian" race) but they may be permitted to use the term "South Asian." I can just imagine my forebearers leaving "South Asia" to cross the dark waters where they worked hard to protect their "South Asian" identity.

Kari, you and I are now South Asian-Guyanese or Guyanese South Asians because that makes redux more comfortable

I am fine with being labeled East Indian. Don't mind Indo-Guyanese or Indo-Caribbean. I am definitely not Indian. So what's exactly is the problem here?

"Race" is a biological construct, not a location or nationality

clear enough?

Stupid children need the most attention. So I try my best to in loco parentis him.

Don't encourage this madman. "Indian" is used narrowly here as a race and among Guyanese people as shorthand to describe ethnically what is specifically a subgroup of Guyana and the Anglophone Caribbean.

karimullah, there is some (good) reason i am making u mad and incoherent

i like it

You go tell those Punjabi and Gujarati they are Indian. There is no such thing as a unique Indian.

why am i a "madman"? . . . for writing this:

"you [Shaitaan] are making a modern political argument, and that is your right

but who are u to pour scorn on those who choose not to embrace the nationalism of country INDIA for whatever POLITICAL reasons?

again, nothing wrong with self-identifying as "Indian" if that means race to you . . . tens, perhaps a couple hundred million on the sub-continent and elsewhere simply disagree with that!

people use "African" and it has wide acceptance primarily because the term is not political . . . imagine if "Congolese" or "Ethiopian" (actually used in BCE times) were being pushed as the accurate descriptor of Negroid peoples wherever they are found

unbunch your Hindutva panties lil and relax"

hmmmm . . .?

Lawd thank you for dis free education.

"Indians" are a biological construct. We is composed of Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians. To use some old and familiar terms, we is largely Indo-Aryan and Dravidian, with some various degrees of other infusions.

The Indian race is spread all over the Indian Subcontinent. Give you an example, the Afghans are largely a people who look as though they could fit anywhere in India. Same for Pakistan. No one can argue that there are some drastic biological differences between the peoples of the Subcontinent. Oh yea, and various genetic studies bear this out. We are a people who share genetics.

Indian people are a race who share a common location (largely), share a common pagan/pantheistic religious origin, share related languages, and at various periods of our history shared a common political sovereign (be he Indian or foreign).

he asked . . .

Oh Shri Ram, why is dis bai such schupid?

No one is embracing the "nationalism of country India" for any reason whatsover. And certainly not pouring scorn on those who do not embrace it either.

Try and breathe for a moment chap. This is not about India the country. No one is talking about that country. No one cares about it as a country.

Lemme splain lil, India is no concern of mine.

There is the region we call the Indian Subcontinent and inhabited by people who share this geography many choose to call "Indian" for various historical reasons. Some of those people left and call their ethnic group "Indian" which obviously confuses some stupid people who think we have some deep loyalty to the State of India which has Indian citizens and Indian passports.

Just a small question. How many pro-India posts have you seen me make here? Like ever? Do I display any affinity for the Indian State whatsoever?

well, i don't disagree with most of what u are saying above . . .

unfortunately, none of it addresses the thrust of my many postings on the thread

so, who again is discounting the relatedness of the peoples rooted in the subcontinent?

not exactly sure which straw man u are tilting so courageously and confidently at

Look Auntyman,

Grown ups are talking. Go on Social or something.

not sure what the (relevant) point is

Moses made a mistake. He should have said he is East Indian or Indo Guyanese. These guys allow the PPP and its proxy groups to shift the focus. Seems like the communist/atheist President Ramotar gets it...the man even doing pooja during this Navratri. The former board member of World Marxist Review do doing lil pooja.

Seems like you may have involuntarily lost your BT virginity or you hiding something. You are quite the homophobe. 

Very interesting considering that you support a party that has more Antimen than actually men in senior ranks within the establishment.

nohomo.

I am inclined to agree with you. He made a stupid mistake. That's all. Politicians even cannot be expected to always get every sentence right.

"I am not Indian. I am Guyanese" is a stupid thing for a Guyanese Indian politician to say. Why couldn't he just say "I am Guyanese" if he wished to affirm his loyalty to the Guyanese State. (Why he felt that was in question is another matter) He had to deny being "Indian" (a term every Guyanese Indian understands what it encompasses and what it doesn't). I'm even sure his non-Guyanese hosts in India did not think he was an "Indian" as they understood the citizens of India to be.

Who de rass was Moses talking to that day in India?

Just that some folks like to pretend that the way to solve the issue of ethnic insecurity is to pretend as if it doesn't exist.  I think that Nagamootoo was quite clear in his explanation.  The PPP was also happy with it when he made it.  They only pretend to be upset now that it suits their plan to engage in racial panic.

When Nigel Hughes, David Hinds, Eric Phillips and others assert an Afro Guyanese identity the PPP calls them racist.  I am willing to bet that 10 years ago when Jagdeo was attempting to make inroads into PNC strongholds he made the same comments.

Guyana is a multi ethnic, multi cultural, and multi religious society.  When people see that as a strength and not as a weakness then they will not have such a condition if some one asserts their ethnicity within the context of being Guyanese. I aim that comment to BOTH Shaitaan and Redux.

Shaitaan you are aware that Nagamootoo made that statement in India, not on some campaign in Linden or Ruimveldt.  I very much doubt his audience was Afro Guyanese. 

I suspect that his point was to tell the GOPIO types that even though he acknowledges being of Indian descent his primary allegiances are to Guyana. 

There are those who dream of some pan Indian civilization.  Even though they put NRIs in a higher category as being more "authentic" Indians, they have some subordinate role which they want you inferior PIO types to play. Especially you Caribbean Indians who are so "lost" that you speak some patois that you got from black people and not one of the "fine" languages of India.

I have a feeling that Nagamootoo was telling them that he isn't part of their scheme.

TK, let's review what really happened.

In 2008, on the recommendation of GOPIO, the Indian government gave Moses Nagamootoo an award. Moses was a senior PPP functionary in 2008 and no one in Freedom House objected to him accepting the award. He travelled to India and there, during his acceptance speech, he declared that he was not Indian but Guyanese. Again, no one in Freedom House raised a hue and cry about Moses' statement.

Now, Moses Nagamootoo is APNU+AFC prime ministerial candidate and a big threat to the PPP's dream of regaining its majority in parliament. At Babu Jaan, Bharrat Jagdeo bowled the first racial bouncer and Ravi Dev of Guyana Times caught it. Dev's friend Dr Baytoram Ramharack suddenly dug up that speech Moses made in India 7 years ago and made it an issue in Stabroek News 2-3 weeks ago. As expected, all the racialists in the PPP have picked it up and are making hay. They are making an issue of a non-issue. It just shows how desperate they are.

I did not mean what Moses said 7 years ago. All he needed to say today was he is Indo-Guyanese. That he is of Indian origin and he is proud of his heritage (at least his ancestors came from the progressive south compared with the ancestors of Bisram and Dev from UP). Of what is he ashamed? You know he has access to those political geniuses yet he walked into this PPP upper cut. This is similar to cutting the budget knowing the PPP will use Kamakazee budget tactics to blame opposition given they control media. PPP bundled education, Amerindian funds, etc, to blame opposition.  Don't walk into their traps. That's what keeps PPP alive.

And in 2008 when Nigel Hughes was attacking the PPP for being racist, and bringing to their attention their plan to systematically excludes blacks, he was accused of being a racist who "only cared about black people".  Of course Hughes was defending Kissoon, a proud Indo Guyanese, who made those assertions.

Shaitaan has been led down a wrong road and has fallen for PPP racial panic.

Trotman says he is "mixed", and not black.  How often does he hear blacks talking about that?

I do believe that he has said exactly that in his response. 

The PPP is however clinging to the notion that Nagamootoo is self hating. 

What Nagamootoo is saying is that the fact that he is Guyanese first and foremost is what will qualify him to be a "Guyanese" leader and not an "Indo Guyanese" leader whose views towards non Indians will be held suspect.

We identify ourselves as Indians-in a silent way. We see the reflections. And our appearances is different than the other 5 races living in Guyana.

Seldom do I hear Indoes. Journalist make that distinctions-Afroes and Indoes.

The elites are polite, so they call us Indians, Afro-Guyanese, Blacks, Indo-Guyanese. And they are a small percentage.

I think the majority of citizens call one another very quick names-blackman, coolieman, the N word, buckman etc,etc.

It would be interesting to know what are the names the Amerindians used to identify the other 5 races.

Generally, each of us sees who we are. What is more important, is how our leaders treat our ethic diversity to enhance the progress of our country.

Guyana is slowly changing-an Indian sounding names these days could have an Afro or Amerindian features to the face. 

No problem. For some years now I've seen names like Bhagmattie Prince, Drupattie Mendonca and Dilip Williams.  So far I haven't come across Susheila Zhou Yongkang. Maybe, the voters list has some.

bogus thread, bogus issue, bogus argumentation . . . lout with agenda staring down reason

from Law360, Jan 2, 2015 . . . Profile/Q&A of Safraz Ishmael of Proskauer Rose LLP

In 2014, [Safraz] Ishmael was named a Massachusetts “Rising Star” by Super Lawyers Magazine. He is a member of the American Bar Association and the Boston Intellectual Property American Inn of Court. He is active in Boston’s legal community, formerly serving as a judge for Harvard Law School’s Ames Moot Court competition, and on the Board of Directors of the South Asian Bar Association of Greater Boston.

"For example, starting at one of my first law-related jobs, and being of South Asian heritage, I found at first to have little in common with the senior associates and partners for whom I worked. I enjoyed watching cricket and listening to Indian music, while those I worked for preferred football or golf, and anything but Indian music! So on the face of things — it appeared that it was hard to form a natural bond and to create a comfort level in a working relationship that is so critical to career advancement."

Only a few days I sent your cousin to you to clarify for him the nature of nation, nationalism and national etc but you are confused as him. Whether an Indian call himself an Indian is his choice. No one can determine the nomenclature one uses to label themselves.

This big fuss about whether Moses called himself Guyanese vs Indian is another layer to the superficial racist bullshit the PPP hope to massage in order to cull a few votes back from the AFC base. You are reluctant to admit he had a valid point in doing so because he was confronted with an instance when he was required to do so to emphasize his Indian designation was not his national designation. One is ethnic label the other is jus solis or his  Guyanese by national designation. One gives him his legal location in the world and the other his descent.

It is right and proper and necessary to use one or the other as is required in social or in legal matters. It does not mean a lesser or more respect for the terms. You are making much ado about nothing.

When those villains in the PPP need to show they are for everyone you hear them shout we are guyanese first. One knows they are Indian first and that is why they so neglect those who actually do not place such emphasis on a supranational identity but their guyanese identity. They have no problems calling Native peoples Amerindians when referring to us. But we are 9 distinct tribal peoples!  If you are so pedantic about this Indian ethnic designation, please let us know which amerind group you refer to when you speak of us.

Nope. Hate to disappoint. I frankly agree with both sides here to a degree.

The PPP via Dr. Ramharack (a man who personally hates the PPP as I do and who is actually supporting the PPP for the simple reason that the permanent State institutions, both civil and military are overwhelmingly majority Black) is of course opportunistically demonizing Moses for making this comment.

This comment of Moses made several years ago is no surprise to me. If you can recall the many many times I have politely said Moses is not my type of Indian politician while going to lengths to not even seem to attack him. He's totally not trusted by me or by many Indians I know and will potentially not have the trust of Indian voters in this election because of his fundamentally inapposite approach to Indians. He doesn't fit. I'm even on the GNI record as puzzling you with my several statements which clearly state that I trust David Granger more on having a care for ordinary Indian people and their concerns than I do Moses, whom I like as a person and will trust as a person but can never bring myself to support and trust as a politician.

All that being said, the Coalition still retains my support because of David Granger.

I keep tellin ya'll that the Jaganites and the Jaganite philosophy are not liked among ordinary Indians. Ya'll don't like to listen when an Indian is being honest and telling ya'll things that contradict your personal long held views and analysis of tings. I suggest ya'll at least for self-interest adjust that attitude.

This is the most devastating argument employed so far against Moses. "I am not Indian" is a sentence known well to ordinary Indians and it is loathed as much as the speaker of such blasphemy.

The PPP is in Ramharack's debt for finding and publicizing this quote. And if Moses wasn't so committed to ideology (the ideology that caused him to make this blunder in the first place) he would have said something to smooth it over. But he said exactly what he meant to say. Unfortunately for him, Indians will interpret it exactly how he meant it to the Coalition's detriment. Moses does not think he made a blunder. This is the problem. He said what he believes and believes what he said. This accurately represents the Moses that people know politically. And we doan like it.

I believe redux laughed when I suggested the Coalition make a "hard Indian" argument for itself. Well, here is the PPP (who Indians think are anti-Indian to begin with) making a "hard Indian" argument against the Coalition.

Moses and his Jaganites are may cost the Coalition a victory for the simple reason that they mistake ideology for campaign strategy and they are immune to responding to the emotions of Indian people.

Ayuh try wid duh "I am not Indian" ting.

Who the hell is Bartoram to take Umbrage of a man emphasizing his Guyanese nationality to make the point he belongs somewhere else than in India where he only has a connection based on a historical descent? It is quite clear to Moses that he is a man of Indian ethnicity since he cannot hide from it. I can move in and out of the culture but he cant. 

If I call myself Indian who in the world can say different? I participated in the Indian identity growing up by being a part of the culture and living its creed. My father had us doing our hindu prayers and going to hindi classes and attending the Mandir while we also by our mothers demands went to christian church on Sundays.

The point is one aligns culturally with a people hood and I straddle both fences. I am Indian and I am Amerind. I am lucky I can pass fluidly through both communities.  I am however, Guyanese first and call myself Amerind because I feel at "home" in that skin. All this bullshit from Bato to glean some political coin is crap. 

He is on point and you are being an ass. None of us have a right to tell Moses what to call himself. He has as much right to call himself a madrasse as he does indian but he must call himself a Guyanese because that is his nationality and when he does that he speak not to ethnically parochialism but for all of us. The occasion on which he is accused of being a race traitor by Ramharack of all persons.  Redux is right this is solely Indian nationalism of a most perverse kind. He is right they are philosophically hindutva. Even among most Indians this is seen as a perverse form of nationalism.

1. "Bartoram" is Guyanese in the middle of a Guyanese election and he's demonizing a Guyanese candidate for something he has said. That's just how elections work. All Guyanese will take umbrage at something. The man with less umbrages taken will win on May 11th.

2. The fact that you are "fluid" means you are of the mindset that cannot "get it." The non-fluid Indians are Indians 24/7 not part-timers. These 24/7 Indians don't care for part-timers nor do we care for the "I am not Indian" Indians.

3. If Moses is not Indian then why is he seeking Indian votes on the basis of his Indianness?

4. Also, why do you care how "40% of the electorate" votes since your "60% non Indian supermajority" will decide the day anyway?

You are missing the point. Batoram and his two pandit friends are fervently hindutva so the grinding here on Moses supposed ethnic slight is not merely that to him He believes that all indians can only be Indians and nothing else. Muslims are Hindus gone wrong. That is the Hindutva creed.

There is not it to get. It is some intangible shit you folks pull from the air to situate your fallacious creed of premordialism in culture that is binding. That is bullshit.

I am perfectly willing to concede that some adherents of Hindutva creed object to his statement on Hindutva grounds. It's perfectly conceivable that Baytoram et al are of this ilk.

However, the ordinary non-Hindutva Indian finds the statement "I am not Indian" as a statement meant to distance one from us who do subscribe to that identity. That is the point I'm trying to make. And that is important. This is a very potent weapon against Moses because Indians take strong exception to anyone who says they're not Indian and still wishes to partake of our identity. Can't resign from the club/fraternity and still claim the camaraderie club membership affords.

Let us move away from the rightness or wrongness of the issue if such exists. The problem for Moses is that this argument is damaging to him among Indian voters. The time for philosophical arguments is after May 11th. The smart thing to do is for Moses to "clarify" his statements and strongly assert his Indian identity. You and I know he won't. So ya'll can enjoy glorious defeat.

Moses ain't bringing no non-Indian votes to the Coalition. His only use is as an Indian vote getter. I don't know how it sounds for an "Indian vote getter" to declare "I am not Indian" and then leave that out there as the narrative.