antabanta posted:

The two main parties are embroiled in fight for power for the worst possible reason - for individuals to pocket whatever little money, if any, is thrown towards Guyana from Exxon. The previous administration was corrupt, racist, practiced nepotism, involved with drugs and money laundering, and raped the nation. The current administration is dictatorial, slightly less corrupt, practices slightly less nepotism, very incompetent. Where is the Guyanese public? Where are the brilliant minds and community leaders who can galvanize the public to action against these incompetent and self-serving administrations? The Cuffys and Enmore martyrs and Walter Rodneys of Guyana must be turning over in their graves at mockery of independent governance of Guyana.

These are both subjective claims. 

On the yellow highlight: socu, saru, sara after spending billions of dollars to fatten its staff, not 1 ppp jailed.  A failure of PNC/AFC after convincing the public via trial by newspaper that PPP was worse than dog feces. 

Regarding current administration, nepotism abound with friends and family being rewarded. Not sure how you measured this to come up with the term "slightly", clearly your opinion.  

Drugb posted:

antabanta posted:

The two main parties are embroiled in fight for power for the worst possible reason - for individuals to pocket whatever little money, if any, is thrown towards Guyana from Exxon. The previous administration was corrupt, racist, practiced nepotism, involved with drugs and money laundering, and raped the nation. The current administration is dictatorial, slightly less corrupt, practices slightly less nepotism, very incompetent. Where is the Guyanese public? Where are the brilliant minds and community leaders who can galvanize the public to action against these incompetent and self-serving administrations? The Cuffys and Enmore martyrs and Walter Rodneys of Guyana must be turning over in their graves at mockery of independent governance of Guyana.

These are both subjective claims. 

On the yellow highlight: socu, saru, sara after spending billions of dollars to fatten its staff, not 1 ppp jailed.  A failure of PNC/AFC after convincing the public via trial by newspaper that PPP was worse than dog feces. 

Regarding current administration, nepotism abound with friends and family being rewarded. Not sure how you measured this to come up with the term "slightly", clearly your opinion.  

No. My descriptions of the two administrations are fact-based. But that is beside the point. Both have been bad for Guyana. Fixing one by replacing it with the other will NEVER fix the problems. The government has to be made transparent and accountable. Why aren't the people of Guyana rising up en masse against the perpetrators? Where are the protests and marches? And I don't mean the pitiful PPP or PNC-organized protests to serve their own interests.

antabanta posted:

The two main parties are embroiled in fight for power for the worst possible reason - for individuals to pocket whatever little money, if any, is thrown towards Guyana from Exxon. The previous administration was corrupt, racist, practiced nepotism, involved with drugs and money laundering, and raped the nation. The current administration is dictatorial, slightly less corrupt, practices slightly less nepotism, very incompetent. Where is the Guyanese public? Where are the brilliant minds and community leaders who can galvanize the public to action against these incompetent and self-serving administrations? The Cuffys and Enmore martyrs and Walter Rodneys of Guyana must be turning over in their graves at mockery of independent governance of Guyana.

Even the intellectuals have become bankanized ethnically and hide behind the reflected glory of their own in office. This apparently is a trait in group formation. People can organize to support others even when they do not agree with the trust of their ideas. The entire German people followed Hitler because they identified with Germany more and saw the world as against them.  

Thomas Khun spoke to structural revolutions in science and society and suggested that the majority of the people will take sides in an argument and remain there entrenched as the resistence. They will  rationalize the absurdity of their position as anomalous and agree to live with it as necessary.

Change,  when it comes is always  revolutionary. It succeeds only by wiping out the old guard by force in such overwhelming ways that causes them to retire into the background or die.  We do not have any revolutionary leaders...as yet. And none of us are ready to take to the streets to shout these crooks down. Indians still think Jagdeo is sacred. I bet some of them have murtis to him. Granger is the most uncreative and unimaginative person we ever had in office but the PNC will back him and black people will be his phalanx protecting him as rabidly as mad dogs. Change aint coming soon.

Drugb posted:

antabanta posted:

The two main parties are embroiled in fight for power for the worst possible reason - for individuals to pocket whatever little money, if any, is thrown towards Guyana from Exxon. The previous administration was corrupt, racist, practiced nepotism, involved with drugs and money laundering, and raped the nation. The current administration is dictatorial, slightly less corrupt, practices slightly less nepotism, very incompetent. Where is the Guyanese public? Where are the brilliant minds and community leaders who can galvanize the public to action against these incompetent and self-serving administrations? The Cuffys and Enmore martyrs and Walter Rodneys of Guyana must be turning over in their graves at mockery of independent governance of Guyana.

These are both subjective claims. 

On the yellow highlight: socu, saru, sara after spending billions of dollars to fatten its staff, not 1 ppp jailed.  A failure of PNC/AFC after convincing the public via trial by newspaper that PPP was worse than dog feces. 

Regarding current administration, nepotism abound with friends and family being rewarded. Not sure how you measured this to come up with the term "slightly", clearly your opinion.  

You are the only person who can contradict himself in the same post. It is subjective and yet you insist "Regarding current administration, nepotism abound with friends and family being rewarded"  is an objective conclusion we should accept.

Stormborn posted:

Change,  when it comes is always  revolutionary.

What further incentive is needed to prompt such change? People are being murdered daily. Poor people in Guyana are still poor despite the superficial developments of the previous admin, such poverty largely responsible for the daily murders, yet we constantly read about the growing wealth of members of every administration. We constantly read and hear about the rampant corruption and tyranny. But there is no movement by the general public to challenge the perpetrators. A good friend of mine, a former GDF officer, black GDF officer I must emphasize, took me to see the supposedly grand Durban Park, cussing the blatant disregard for public sentiment that not only allows such a travesty foisted upon the nation but encourages more because the person(s) responsible for that disappointment is still in the good graces of the administration and receiving projects. And where is the public outrage?

On another note, I need to read Kuhn's seminal work a third time before fully understanding every aspect of it.

The regular Guyanese person is busy trying to make ends meet, they don't have the time to waste with what the politicians are doing. Because of how Guyana's political system is structured, there will always be a large segment who will be under or unrepresented. Guyanese knows that so they take independent measures to take care of themselves and their families. For Guyana to become a more perfect union, there needs to be a complete overhaul of its political system.

If a powerful country as America can have someone with the mentality of a flea as their leader along with his fellow flea brained Republicans who stick with him as he waddles through the rot he has built up yet millions see him as their hero, then how can we expect "shitty" third world countries do any better?

Now I am not saying change cannot come....but when?

antabanta posted:

Stormborn posted:

Change,  when it comes is always  revolutionary.

What further incentive is needed to prompt such change? People are being murdered daily. Poor people in Guyana are still poor despite the superficial developments of the previous admin, such poverty largely responsible for the daily murders, yet we constantly read about the growing wealth of members of every administration. We constantly read and hear about the rampant corruption and tyranny. But there is no movement by the general public to challenge the perpetrators. A good friend of mine, a former GDF officer, black GDF officer I must emphasize, took me to see the supposedly grand Durban Park, cussing the blatant disregard for public sentiment that not only allows such a travesty foisted upon the nation but encourages more because the person(s) responsible for that disappointment is still in the good graces of the administration and receiving projects. And where is the public outrage?

On another note, I need to read Kuhn's seminal work a third time before fully understanding every aspect of it.

Kuhn's work is a critique on how science advances but also works for society. It  is an enjoyable eye opening read. Here it is

ksazma posted:

The regular Guyanese person is busy trying to make ends meet, they don't have the time to waste with what the politicians are doing.

But that right there is the problem. A reasonable percentage of the population are NOT making ends meet, most barely, and a few doing well, largely because of government mal-administration, and I mean from all the administrations to date.

Stormborn posted:

Kuhn's work is a critique on how science advances but also works for society. It  is an enjoyable eye opening read. Here it is

Thanks. I have a hard copy.

cain posted:

If a powerful country as America can have someone with the mentality of a flea as their leader along with his fellow flea brained Republicans who stick with him as he waddles through the rot he has built up yet millions see him as their hero, then how can we expect "shitty" third world countries do any better?

Now I am not saying change cannot come....but when?

Get with the program, Putin put him there because he didn't want to deal with Hillary. 

antabanta posted:

ksazma posted:

The regular Guyanese person is busy trying to make ends meet, they don't have the time to waste with what the politicians are doing.

But that right there is the problem. A reasonable percentage of the population are NOT making ends meet, most barely, and a few doing well, largely because of government mal-administration, and I mean from all the administrations to date.

I don't think the regular Guyanese person has other viable options. The system is not conducive to structural change.

Leonora posted:

cain posted:

If a powerful country as America can have someone with the mentality of a flea as their leader along with his fellow flea brained Republicans who stick with him as he waddles through the rot he has built up yet millions see him as their hero, then how can we expect "shitty" third world countries do any better?

Now I am not saying change cannot come....but when?

Get with the program, Putin put him there because he didn't want to deal with Hillary. 

And who do you think the Americans will install in Guyana?

Baseman posted:

Leonora posted:

cain posted:

If a powerful country as America can have someone with the mentality of a flea as their leader along with his fellow flea brained Republicans who stick with him as he waddles through the rot he has built up yet millions see him as their hero, then how can we expect "shitty" third world countries do any better?

Now I am not saying change cannot come....but when?

Get with the program, Putin put him there because he didn't want to deal with Hillary. 

And who do you think the Americans will install in Guyana?

The Americans really do not care. They want a stable society. 

Leonora posted:

cain posted:

If a powerful country as America can have someone with the mentality of a flea as their leader along with his fellow flea brained Republicans who stick with him as he waddles through the rot he has built up yet millions see him as their hero, then how can we expect "shitty" third world countries do any better?

Now I am not saying change cannot come....but when?

Get with the program, Putin put him there because he didn't want to deal with Hillary. 

And he is extremely happy ...

ksazma posted:

The regular Guyanese person is busy trying to make ends meet, they don't have the time to waste with what the politicians are doing. Because of how Guyana's political system is structured, there will always be a large segment who will be under or unrepresented. Guyanese knows that so they take independent measures to take care of themselves and their families. For Guyana to become a more perfect union, there needs to be a complete overhaul of its political system.

Kaz,

I agree whole heartedly. What is currently occurring in Guyana today is at the heart of the problem. Indos don’t trust Afros governing and vice versa. 

This mistrust goes way back to when Indentured immigrants first arrived and the British capitalized on that mistrust. Jagan and Burnham further exploited that mistrust for their own selfish political interest. 

Walter Rodney was the only politician who could have potentially galvanized Guyana but we know that the PNC murdered him. That left a void that cannot be filled to this day.

Guyana can still heal and become a more democratic and united country but lacks the political will. The first step will have to be a National Reconciliation like what they did at South Africa’s truth commission. 

Constitutional reform is necessary but both the PPP and PNC use it to their advantage and as such Burnham’s ghost still lingers on. Amendments are necessary and those can easily done in consultation with Church, Business, Political, Community, Academics and even impartial international organizations. The case at CCJ highlighted a few contradictory sections of the constitution and I personally feel that some of the judges are having heart wrenching moments in making a decision. 

The final decision will potentially be a reasonable conclusion but this will not be a PPP or PNC win since one side will claim that their rights have been violated. I personally feel that while the PNC is hapless, we cannot ignore Afro Guyanese right to become equal partners in Guyana’s future economic success. The tit for tat will continue in an eventual PPP electoral victory, the pain continues. 

A genuine third political party is necessary to force change but AFC destroyed Guyanese appetite for any such force. At least not in the near future. The political carnage continues. Shoeman might become that third force but only god knows what is in his mind.

antabanta posted:

Drugb posted:

antabanta posted:

The two main parties are embroiled in fight for power for the worst possible reason - for individuals to pocket whatever little money, if any, is thrown towards Guyana from Exxon. The previous administration was corrupt, racist, practiced nepotism, involved with drugs and money laundering, and raped the nation. The current administration is dictatorial, slightly less corrupt, practices slightly less nepotism, very incompetent. Where is the Guyanese public? Where are the brilliant minds and community leaders who can galvanize the public to action against these incompetent and self-serving administrations? The Cuffys and Enmore martyrs and Walter Rodneys of Guyana must be turning over in their graves at mockery of independent governance of Guyana.

These are both subjective claims. 

On the yellow highlight: socu, saru, sara after spending billions of dollars to fatten its staff, not 1 ppp jailed.  A failure of PNC/AFC after convincing the public via trial by newspaper that PPP was worse than dog feces. 

Regarding current administration, nepotism abound with friends and family being rewarded. Not sure how you measured this to come up with the term "slightly", clearly your opinion.  

No. My descriptions of the two administrations are fact-based. But that is beside the point. Both have been bad for Guyana. Fixing one by replacing it with the other will NEVER fix the problems. The government has to be made transparent and accountable. Why aren't the people of Guyana rising up en masse against the perpetrators? Where are the protests and marches? And I don't mean the pitiful PPP or PNC-organized protests to serve their own interests.

The partial answer can be found in your post above. 

A revolution can start from below or above...it can be genuinely working class and mass based if people rise up against dictatorial practices, generally when they are denied the ability to enjoy the fruits of their labor. The objective conditions for such a possibility does not exist in Guyana. There are no popular leader who are seen as willing to take on this challenge. There is no charismatic leader like a Walter Rodney and a Cheddi Jagan. Additionally, Guyana has an outlet that offers people out of the country...migration or "backtracking", so the disenchanted instead of directing their energy towards regime change are busy migrating...even those who remain in Guyana are "baring the chafe" and waiting for their "papers" as they become part of the chain migration process. 

Lack of leadership and an outlet, and the continued racial divide work against the creation of a unified and "spring" revolution in Guyana, or the type led by Rodney.

Stormborn posted:

antabanta posted:

Stormborn posted:

Change,  when it comes is always  revolutionary.

What further incentive is needed to prompt such change? People are being murdered daily. Poor people in Guyana are still poor despite the superficial developments of the previous admin, such poverty largely responsible for the daily murders, yet we constantly read about the growing wealth of members of every administration. We constantly read and hear about the rampant corruption and tyranny. But there is no movement by the general public to challenge the perpetrators. A good friend of mine, a former GDF officer, black GDF officer I must emphasize, took me to see the supposedly grand Durban Park, cussing the blatant disregard for public sentiment that not only allows such a travesty foisted upon the nation but encourages more because the person(s) responsible for that disappointment is still in the good graces of the administration and receiving projects. And where is the public outrage?

On another note, I need to read Kuhn's seminal work a third time before fully understanding every aspect of it.

Kuhn's work is a critique on how science advances but also works for society. It  is an enjoyable eye opening read. Here it is

Regarding Kuhn' work...what Guyanese need is a "paradigm shift" to borrow a phrase from Kuhn. 

The old politics where political leaders are seen as saviors (doctor politics, according to  Archie Singham) still holds true for Guyana and most of the Caribbean where political leaders are revered. 

I believe some of that is reflected in the fact that the leftist ideology of Rodney and Jagan are seen as discredited (for the world in general).  

antabanta posted:

Stormborn posted:

Change,  when it comes is always  revolutionary.

What further incentive is needed to prompt such change? People are being murdered daily. Poor people in Guyana are still poor despite the superficial developments of the previous admin, such poverty largely responsible for the daily murders, yet we constantly read about the growing wealth of members of every administration. We constantly read and hear about the rampant corruption and tyranny. But there is no movement by the general public to challenge the perpetrators. A good friend of mine, a former GDF officer, black GDF officer I must emphasize, took me to see the supposedly grand Durban Park, cussing the blatant disregard for public sentiment that not only allows such a travesty foisted upon the nation but encourages more because the person(s) responsible for that disappointment is still in the good graces of the administration and receiving projects. And where is the public outrage?

On another note, I need to read Kuhn's seminal work a third time before fully understanding every aspect of it.

Try Karl Popper...and his OPEN SOCIETY

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

This begs the question...how can the PPP promote stability and ensure democracy if it is governing a nation-state with a large percentage seeing themselves as being excluded from power?

you really think the PPP and its leaders are saviors of Guyana...and more importantly, you think you can sell this bag of beans to Afros?

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

This begs the question...how can the PPP promote stability and ensure democracy if it is governing a nation-state with a large percentage seeing themselves as being excluded from power?

you really think the PPP and its leaders are saviors of Guyana...and more importantly, you think you can sell this bag of beans to Afros?

You are asking for the PPP to create a utopia instead of asking the PNC to keep their promise and respect the constitution Guyana.  The PPP lost power through the ballot because a percentage of their supporters crossed party and voted for the coalition.  The PPP did not rig to stay in power.  The respected the will of the People and the PNC should do the same. We cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side violating the same rules and then declaring both of them equal evils.  This is the rubbish being pedalled on GNI by charlatans who masked themselves as intellectuals with smart solutions. Most of these people are nothing more than pursuers of soup.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

This begs the question...how can the PPP promote stability and ensure democracy if it is governing a nation-state with a large percentage seeing themselves as being excluded from power?

you really think the PPP and its leaders are saviors of Guyana...and more importantly, you think you can sell this bag of beans to Afros?

You are asking for the PPP to create a utopia instead of asking the PNC to keep their promise and respect the constitution Guyana.  The PPP lost power through the ballot because a percentage of their supporters crossed party and voted for the coalition.  The PPP did not rig to stay in power.  The respected the will of the People and the PNC should do the same. We cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side violating the same rules and then declaring both of them equal evils.  This is the rubbish being pedalled on GNI by charlatans who masked themselves as intellectuals with smart solutions. Most of these people are nothing more than pursuers of soup.

I agree that when we agree to play by the rules we must also accept the results of the game.

However, the problem is that the rules were skewed to benefit the majority party...the only reason the PPP won elections in a divided society, even after the split...so If the PPP was such a credibly great party why did they have to loose, as you said, because a percentage of their supporters did not vote for them?. In other words, why did they not win with a large multiracial support?   The small percentage they lost were primarily Indians.

So again, here is the problem:  since neither party can govern Guyana to the satisfaction to the majority of most Guyanese...how do Guyanese get to that point of nirvana? 

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

This begs the question...how can the PPP promote stability and ensure democracy if it is governing a nation-state with a large percentage seeing themselves as being excluded from power?

you really think the PPP and its leaders are saviors of Guyana...and more importantly, you think you can sell this bag of beans to Afros?

You are asking for the PPP to create a utopia instead of asking the PNC to keep their promise and respect the constitution Guyana.  The PPP lost power through the ballot because a percentage of their supporters crossed party and voted for the coalition.  The PPP did not rig to stay in power.  The respected the will of the People and the PNC should do the same. We cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side violating the same rules and then declaring both of them equal evils.  This is the rubbish being pedalled on GNI by charlatans who masked themselves as intellectuals with smart solutions. Most of these people are nothing more than pursuers of soup.

I agree that when we agree to play by the rules we must also accept the results of the game.

However, the problem is that the rules were skewed to benefit the majority party...the only reason the PPP won elections in a divided society, even after the split...so If the PPP was such a credibly great party why did they have to loose, as you said, because a percentage of their supporters did not vote for them?. In other words, why did they not win with a large multiracial support?   The small percentage they lost were primarily Indians.

So again, here is the problem:  since neither party can govern Guyana to the satisfaction to the majority of most Guyanese...how do Guyanese get to that point of nirvana? 

 

You are trying to confuse me.  Not going to work. Please elaborate on how the rules are skewed to benefit the majority party (PPP). 

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

This begs the question...how can the PPP promote stability and ensure democracy if it is governing a nation-state with a large percentage seeing themselves as being excluded from power?

you really think the PPP and its leaders are saviors of Guyana...and more importantly, you think you can sell this bag of beans to Afros?

You are asking for the PPP to create a utopia instead of asking the PNC to keep their promise and respect the constitution Guyana.  The PPP lost power through the ballot because a percentage of their supporters crossed party and voted for the coalition.  The PPP did not rig to stay in power.  The respected the will of the People and the PNC should do the same. We cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side violating the same rules and then declaring both of them equal evils.  This is the rubbish being pedalled on GNI by charlatans who masked themselves as intellectuals with smart solutions. Most of these people are nothing more than pursuers of soup.

I agree that when we agree to play by the rules we must also accept the results of the game.

However, the problem is that the rules were skewed to benefit the majority party...the only reason the PPP won elections in a divided society, even after the split...so If the PPP was such a credibly great party why did they have to loose, as you said, because a percentage of their supporters did not vote for them?. In other words, why did they not win with a large multiracial support?   The small percentage they lost were primarily Indians.

So again, here is the problem:  since neither party can govern Guyana to the satisfaction to the majority of most Guyanese...how do Guyanese get to that point of nirvana? 

 

No one is asking the PPP to create a utopia. Guyanese want the parties to work together so that all Guyanese can benefit from what Guyana has to offer....not simply those people who are in power. Both the PNC and PPP have failed in this task. 

I will cast more blame on the PPP since they had a lot of good will coming into power in 1992. They failed miserably in doing so. If they had set up institutions and clear democratic guidelines for future governments, then it would have brought us closer to that point of nirvana and avoid all the excesses we now see.

Your problem is that in your view the PPP is a morally superior organization....compared to the PNC....they are both morally bankrupt.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

This begs the question...how can the PPP promote stability and ensure democracy if it is governing a nation-state with a large percentage seeing themselves as being excluded from power?

you really think the PPP and its leaders are saviors of Guyana...and more importantly, you think you can sell this bag of beans to Afros?

You are asking for the PPP to create a utopia instead of asking the PNC to keep their promise and respect the constitution Guyana.  The PPP lost power through the ballot because a percentage of their supporters crossed party and voted for the coalition.  The PPP did not rig to stay in power.  The respected the will of the People and the PNC should do the same. We cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side violating the same rules and then declaring both of them equal evils.  This is the rubbish being pedalled on GNI by charlatans who masked themselves as intellectuals with smart solutions. Most of these people are nothing more than pursuers of soup.

I agree that when we agree to play by the rules we must also accept the results of the game.

However, the problem is that the rules were skewed to benefit the majority party...the only reason the PPP won elections in a divided society, even after the split...so If the PPP was such a credibly great party why did they have to loose, as you said, because a percentage of their supporters did not vote for them?. In other words, why did they not win with a large multiracial support?   The small percentage they lost were primarily Indians.

So again, here is the problem:  since neither party can govern Guyana to the satisfaction to the majority of most Guyanese...how do Guyanese get to that point of nirvana? 

 

You are trying to confuse me.  Not going to work. Please elaborate on how the rules are skewed to benefit the majority party (PPP). 

You are easily confusing yourself, dont blame it on me.

Check the elections since the 1960s...they were racial censuses....

If you cant comprehend this, I cant help you.

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

This begs the question...how can the PPP promote stability and ensure democracy if it is governing a nation-state with a large percentage seeing themselves as being excluded from power?

you really think the PPP and its leaders are saviors of Guyana...and more importantly, you think you can sell this bag of beans to Afros?

You are asking for the PPP to create a utopia instead of asking the PNC to keep their promise and respect the constitution Guyana.  The PPP lost power through the ballot because a percentage of their supporters crossed party and voted for the coalition.  The PPP did not rig to stay in power.  The respected the will of the People and the PNC should do the same. We cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side violating the same rules and then declaring both of them equal evils.  This is the rubbish being pedalled on GNI by charlatans who masked themselves as intellectuals with smart solutions. Most of these people are nothing more than pursuers of soup.

I agree that when we agree to play by the rules we must also accept the results of the game.

However, the problem is that the rules were skewed to benefit the majority party...the only reason the PPP won elections in a divided society, even after the split...so If the PPP was such a credibly great party why did they have to loose, as you said, because a percentage of their supporters did not vote for them?. In other words, why did they not win with a large multiracial support?   The small percentage they lost were primarily Indians.

So again, here is the problem:  since neither party can govern Guyana to the satisfaction to the majority of most Guyanese...how do Guyanese get to that point of nirvana? 

 

You are trying to confuse me.  Not going to work. Please elaborate on how the rules are skewed to benefit the majority party (PPP). 

You are easily confusing yourself, dont blame it on me.

Check the elections since the 1960s...they were racial censuses....

If you cant comprehend this, I cant help you.

The PPP won because their supporters were in the majority...kit and kin voted for kit and kin...

VishMahabir posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

This begs the question...how can the PPP promote stability and ensure democracy if it is governing a nation-state with a large percentage seeing themselves as being excluded from power?

you really think the PPP and its leaders are saviors of Guyana...and more importantly, you think you can sell this bag of beans to Afros?

You are asking for the PPP to create a utopia instead of asking the PNC to keep their promise and respect the constitution Guyana.  The PPP lost power through the ballot because a percentage of their supporters crossed party and voted for the coalition.  The PPP did not rig to stay in power.  The respected the will of the People and the PNC should do the same. We cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side violating the same rules and then declaring both of them equal evils.  This is the rubbish being pedalled on GNI by charlatans who masked themselves as intellectuals with smart solutions. Most of these people are nothing more than pursuers of soup.

I agree that when we agree to play by the rules we must also accept the results of the game.

However, the problem is that the rules were skewed to benefit the majority party...the only reason the PPP won elections in a divided society, even after the split...so If the PPP was such a credibly great party why did they have to loose, as you said, because a percentage of their supporters did not vote for them?. In other words, why did they not win with a large multiracial support?   The small percentage they lost were primarily Indians.

So again, here is the problem:  since neither party can govern Guyana to the satisfaction to the majority of most Guyanese...how do Guyanese get to that point of nirvana? 

 

No one is asking the PPP to create a utopia. Guyanese want the parties to work together so that all Guyanese can benefit from what Guyana has to offer....not simply those people who are in power. Both the PNC and PPP have failed in this task. 

I will cast more blame on the PPP since they had a lot of good will coming into power in 1992. They failed miserably in doing so. If they had set up institutions and clear democratic guidelines for future governments, then it would have brought us closer to that point of nirvana and avoid all the excesses we now see.

Your problem is that in your view the PPP is a morally superior organization....compared to the PNC....they are both morally bankrupt.

VM,

When I compliment the PPP I do it with concrete facts. When I criticize the PNC it is based on facts and not some fictitious claim by some newspaper columnist. I just cannot see how you can declare the PPP as evil as the PNC. Post colonial Guyana was under the full control of the PNC from 1966 to 1992. Guyana was the last country in the world to get television.  Thanks to the Great LFS Burnham who placed his pictures everywhere for us to see.  We did not need TV. We just had to look at his face and listen to his lies on Radio Demerara and GBC.  A CN Sharma would not survive under a PNC government blasting it they way he did to the PPP. Thuggery was and still is the weapon of one party and that party is no other than the PNC now masked as APNU>

VishMahabir posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

There is great mistrust between the two major parties.  Many years ago these parties agreed to rotate the mayorship of Georgetown.  The PNC had their candidate served first and when it was time for the PPP's candidate to serve they reneged on their promise. Here is an example of one side (PPP) trusting the PNC and that trust was violated. What kind of message did that send to the people of Guyana, or more specifically to the Indo-Guyanese supporters of the PPP?  Does it not say to us that we cannot trust the PNC to work together to advance GT or Guyana?

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

This begs the question...how can the PPP promote stability and ensure democracy if it is governing a nation-state with a large percentage seeing themselves as being excluded from power?

you really think the PPP and its leaders are saviors of Guyana...and more importantly, you think you can sell this bag of beans to Afros?

You are asking for the PPP to create a utopia instead of asking the PNC to keep their promise and respect the constitution Guyana.  The PPP lost power through the ballot because a percentage of their supporters crossed party and voted for the coalition.  The PPP did not rig to stay in power.  The respected the will of the People and the PNC should do the same. We cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side violating the same rules and then declaring both of them equal evils.  This is the rubbish being pedalled on GNI by charlatans who masked themselves as intellectuals with smart solutions. Most of these people are nothing more than pursuers of soup.

I agree that when we agree to play by the rules we must also accept the results of the game.

However, the problem is that the rules were skewed to benefit the majority party...the only reason the PPP won elections in a divided society, even after the split...so If the PPP was such a credibly great party why did they have to loose, as you said, because a percentage of their supporters did not vote for them?. In other words, why did they not win with a large multiracial support?   The small percentage they lost were primarily Indians.

So again, here is the problem:  since neither party can govern Guyana to the satisfaction to the majority of most Guyanese...how do Guyanese get to that point of nirvana? 

 

You are trying to confuse me.  Not going to work. Please elaborate on how the rules are skewed to benefit the majority party (PPP). 

You are easily confusing yourself, dont blame it on me.

Check the elections since the 1960s...they were racial censuses....

If you cant comprehend this, I cant help you.

The PPP won because their supporters were in the majority...kit and kin voted for kit and kin...

Would you declare elections in South Africa racial censuses?

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

 

The PPP won because their supporters were in the majority...kit and kin voted for kit and kin...

Would you declare elections in South Africa racial censuses?

I dont know much about SA, except that they had their own extreme racial segregation (apartheid) and have aired their history of dirty laundry. 

Guyana's problems are its own and has a very small population compared to SA. Guyana's problems can easily be solved if political leaders from both sides act like mature politicians who are concerned about ALL Guyanese, not just their own supporters.

VishMahabir posted:

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

 

The PPP won because their supporters were in the majority...kit and kin voted for kit and kin...

Would you declare elections in South Africa racial censuses?

I dont know much about SA, except that they had their own extreme racial segregation (apartheid) and have aired their history of dirty laundry. 

Guyana's problems are its own and has a very small population compared to SA. Guyana's problems can easily be solved if political leaders from both sides act like mature politicians who are concerned about ALL Guyanese, not just their own supporters.

You are bringing in a distractor w/o responding to my questions above. What does SA have to do with Guyana?

Can you guys avoid the quote feature, hard to read the responses. VishMahabir,presented some good points which are factual.

Just asking.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

You are asking for the PPP to create a utopia instead of asking the PNC to keep their promise and respect the constitution Guyana.  The PPP lost power through the ballot because a percentage of their supporters crossed party and voted for the coalition.  The PPP did not rig to stay in power.  The respected the will of the People and the PNC should do the same. We cannot have one side playing by the rules and the other side violating the same rules and then declaring both of them equal evils.  This is the rubbish being pedalled on GNI by charlatans who masked themselves as intellectuals with smart solutions. Most of these people are nothing more than pursuers of soup.

You are polishing your own gonads here. The PPP are evil because they are evil...simple tautology but truth. One does not have to compare and contrast them with the PPP to get that effect. Like a sin it is upon the owner of the sin not whether others have sinned. I call them both vile, evil, and irredeemably corrupt because neither of these parties think they need to change. Meanwhile, Guyanese suffer because they exist.   

As for the supp part...drinking from a shared cup with these vipers would surely caused you to get ill. I doubt any contemplative man or women would  want to slake their thirst with water from either of these toxic parties. They exist because Guyanese are conditioned to be loyal  sheep by ethnic distrust.

@antabanta Really good post I couldn’t have agreed with you more, APNU have quickly become one of the most incompetent and arrogant governments we’ve had. As for the PPP they had such a good opportunity to make the right changes as they genuinely have some good young blood and yet chose Irfan and king Jagdeo who foams at the mouth given any opportunity.I like Lennox Shuman a lot and the people he’s surrounded himself with, ANUG though full of older style Guyanese politicians are making some ok(ish) noises. I just don’t think the appetite is there this time around in large enough numbers after the mess of the AFC to vote for a 3rd party to make the difference we are looking for there is so much at stake come November. But my x goes to the LJP and Shuman 

VishMahabir posted:

Guyana's problems can easily be solved if political leaders from both sides act like mature politicians who are concerned about ALL Guyanese, not just their own supporters.

The problem in Guyana is corruption and maladministration in successive administrations, not immature politicians. They have no concern for their own supporters and only use them to ascend to a position from where they can rape the country.

Dougla_80 posted:

@antabanta Really good post I couldn’t have agreed with you more, APNU have quickly become one of the most incompetent and arrogant governments we’ve had. As for the PPP they had such a good opportunity to make the right changes as they genuinely have some good young blood and yet chose Irfan and king Jagdeo who foams at the mouth given any opportunity.I like Lennox Shuman a lot and the people he’s surrounded himself with, ANUG though full of older style Guyanese politicians are making some ok(ish) noises. I just don’t think the appetite is there this time around in large enough numbers after the mess of the AFC to vote for a 3rd party to make the difference we are looking for there is so much at stake come November. But my x goes to the LJP and Shuman 

Thanks. We need to stop going around in circles about which party is better and which is worse and establish accountability and transparency for any and every administration. We all know the minister's explanations about how her husband got contracts is bullcrap yet nothing is being done about it. We all know Donald Ramotar's son should not even be near a fiber cable contract, yet nothing was ever done about it. Has anyone been to that bar and club in Hope on East Bank, Demerara built by the former PPP minister and her husband? There is no way they can afford that on their salaries. There will be little condemnation from audits and CoIs and BoIs because successive administrations will always be reluctant to set a precedent of punishment and accountability for government officials. The people need to get militant against any and all perpetrators. The people have to demand government be accountable and transparent.

Billy Ram Balgobin posted:

All this writing about both parties are the same is BS.  I see the PNC as an untrustworthy ally in any arrangement. Look at their history with working with or parties like the UF and the AFC.  Are we still blind to see that they have dominated the coalition government and gave the AFC -0- say in decision-making? 

 

You have to be completely out of touch with events in Guyana between 1992 and 2015 to want to praise the PPP administration. Thievery was rampant. But that's beside the point as it is to be expected when government has no accountability and transparency. No administration will willingly implement such accountability and transparency. The people have to demand it. Community groups - religious, social, boy scout - every and all have to get militant and hold government responsible.

VishMahabir posted:

 

The PPP won because their supporters were in the majority

 

That is usually how elections are democratically won. 

Complete transparency would be hard to achieve but starting by digitising these processes and then publishing publically the results would be a start, at least you’ll have a electronic audit and financial footprint from start to finish, but I think we are whistling in the wind at this point as the will certainly isn’t there. When you walk into any public office in Guyana it’s like a throw back from the land time forgot there is zero accountability at any stage.