ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

 

If a Christian decides to become an atheist or convert to Islam there are no consequences.  Let a Muslim try that in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, and you know fully well what will happen.  And this is NOT ISIS.

 

That is not just religion, it is everything in that part of the world. Just recently a young woman who eloped with her boyfriend and got married was eventually set on fire by her own mother. And guess what, both young people were Muslims so its not like she eloped with a non-Muslim. Could she have killed her daughter any worse if it was a non-Muslim boy?

And on what basis did the mother justify this behavior? HER interpretation of the Koran.

Here is the deal. 200 years ago Christians justified slavery by quoting the bible.   Now we have learned that the bible cannot be interpreted literally.

There is a whole school of tribal Islam which literally interprets the bible/Koran (which are the same book despite what die hards like Chief might think). Jihad, being one of these things that they distort.  Similar concepts can also be found among Christian, hence the barbarous Inquisition and conversion by the use of a sword that once defined Christianity.

But we have moved on.  Tribal Christians (like the snake worshippers of the Appalachians) aren't allowed to define the entirety of Christianity.

So who can stop this?  If non Muslims try to do so then there will be accusations of colonial cultural domination.  It is only Islam which can bring an end to this barbarity.

ksazma posted:

RiffRaff posted:

 

Let's play this out...how would boycotting Mecca stop terrorism? Maybe the US and UK can start by not being in bed with the Saudis...

If America wants to punish Saudi, they should stop buying their oil. That will affect the Wahabi movement more than any boycott of the pilgrimage can do. Are we ready and willing to stop buying that oil right now?

The West is quite happy to ensure that the Middle East remains weak with Islam continuing to be controlled by tribal people, and with Muslims killing each other.   All the better to dominate oil. Generations after oil was discovered Saudi Arabia still remains heavily dependent on westerners to maintain the infrastructure of that industry.

They will act when this lunacy spills into the West, and it will be the Muslims who live in those lands who will suffer as more people like Trump, Boris Johnson and Le Pen gain an audience.  Pity as the Muslims who live in these lands by and large operate outside of this tribal world, with value systems no different from others.

The power brokers of the West remain immune from the lunacy, except in rare moments like 9/11.  In the long run millions of Muslims suffered tremendously for what a few dozen Muslims concocted.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

So Chief how about if you tell those desert Arabs that Islam is a global religion and cease to use books with Arabic script, or to pray in Arabic (when most don't understand that language)?

 

No need for this extreme. The Arabic Qur'an was alive and well even when Saudi was a pauper nation. The Arabic Qur'an is not what made them rich, arrogant and evil. It is the oil they got around 1932. If we really want to punish them, we can do so by letting them drink all of their oil. As a Muslim who was active in the comparative religion arena, answering islam has no credibility to me.

So continue to let nomads define Islam.  Just don't get angry when others stereotype you with what they connect to those, and then threaten to have you do a "Sharia test".  That will happen if Trump wins.  I expect him t get at least 48% of the votes.

caribny posted:

 

 

These Islamists are engaging in special criminal behavior, not out of greed, or power, but out of a warped interpretation of the Koran. 

Stealing cell phones, or robbing stores is one thing.  The motivation is greed.

Now what is the rationale for slamming a truck into people?  Any personal gain?  What inspires these people?

Face it.  It comes from a warped interpretation of the Koran.   This is the fact that Muslims need to change. 

Until Muslims address the underlying reasons which create people who brainwash others by offering a warped interpretation of the Koran then we will continue to have these incidents.

Muslims need to "detribalize" Islam.  Toss Saudi Arabia out of the center of the Muslim world. Go back to that classical era when it was scholars from Baghdad, Cairo, Casablanca, and Timbuktu which defined Islam.  Now it is in the hands of former nomads who have inserted their primitive tribal customs as Islam. 

So why don't Muslims speak out against Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan?  Because that is the rationalization that lunatics cite to justify their warped attitudes.  Harassing women because they don't want to  be covered from head to toe, and want to enter the modern world.

Look at Malala. Her troubles are because of some warped notion of what Islam is.  Look at the honor killings that are not uncommon throughout the Muslim world. Again justified by a warped notion of what Islam is.

Muslims need to detribalize Islam.   Do you all expect non Muslims to do this?

.

I am curious to know what these people are told when inspiring them to commit these acts. I doubt it has anything to do with any interpretation from the Qur'an. There is the common argument about virgins in heaven. It is strange that men will pass up on ***** right here on earth and instead blow themselves up to get ***** in heaven. Or as Mars would argue, batty. So what are they telling these people as they recruit them to their evil cause. I don't know nor do I care but it would be good to know whet they are telling these people as they go about motivating them. I always thought it was more a geopolitical campaign which makes it more political than religious. The Saudis laws are based more on their tribal and cultural inclinations than on the Qur'an but claim that they are following the Qur'an. Why would the Saudis claim that women driving cars is against Islam when the Prophet's most favorite wife other than his first one Khadijah rode camels considering that she had to straddle the camel which women do not have to do in cars. Malala is from Pakistan and her pain came at the hands of tribal customs which are against Islam. The Prophet advised that if a parent has a son and daughter and can only afford to educate one, he should educate the daughter because she is the future mother of the nation. So how can someone assault Malala for seeking an education and then claim that it is Islamic. Most parents in the world today would probably be inclined to educate their sons than daughter using the argument that the son if the future caretaker of the household. Yes Saudi's influence on the Muslim world has not been positive. We don't all need to dress like Arabs, talk like them or act like them. I have made that very clear for a very long time. I don't wear my gowns to mosques but not because I don't like them or wish to boycott the Saudi dress style. I chose not to wear them because I don't see how they remain clean when so much of it is exposed to the elements. And after, cleanliness is next to Godliness in Islam.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

Now when we see folks screaming Jesus Christ, before blowing themselves up and killing 50 people then we can equate how Islam is being practiced and what is happening in Christianity.

 

They don't need to dude. They can count on their government to do it for them. Take a walk down memory lane and see how many Christian organizations were having multiple orgasms just before we invaded Iraq in 2003. They couldn't wait for us to win the war so they can move Jesus in not giving any attention to the fact that Iraq already had a sizeable Christian population.

You think highly of Christians if you believe that it was about religious "morality".

The power elites wanted to get free oil and so invaded one of the largest producers. GREED, not Jesus motivated that move.

Check out how the Bush family has married its involvement in politics with its greed.  Daddy Bush and Saddam had a squabble over a pipe line, so Daddy Bush thought that Saddam should get a spanking. Then that idiot Jamaican, Collin Powell, got in the way and forced an end to the first invasion.  Daddy told Sonny Bush to finish off what he started, and to ensure that Collin Powell complied.

Kari posted:

..

When that white dude went in to that Black Church and killed 9 people in the name of Whites, no one blamed the white race.

You mean that whites were in denial.

Blacks put Mr Roof's behavior firmly within the context of white barbarity that has been directed towards blacks since 1619. They didn't blame the sad little boy.  The blamed a racist society that made the lunatic think that such behavior was appropriate.

In fact they even make note that Roof was "rewarded" by those who arrested him, who even took him to a restaurant, before he went to jail.

Now contrast this with the black terrorist in Dallas, who was immediately blasted away.  And BTW NO credible black person has condemned the fact that the police killed him.  NOT even Black Lives Matter!

So yes Kari that incident was seen as yet another act of white racism, and also added to the notion that many whites applauded his actions.

Apparently you don't talk too much to blacks.

Chief posted:

..

Maybe you all need to give Saudi Arabia a rest for a while, and start using the local languages in your mosque instead of praying in Arabic. No wonder some Muslims are ignorant of the religion if it is conducted in a language other than their own.

Carib J

Sheer nonsense you talking shit.

Hmmm.  Saudi Arabia is a hell hole because of its conservative version of Islam (much of it actually tribal customs). 

This then becomes "pure" Islam in the head of a lunatic, who then sets off to kill "Infidels".   It is a known fact that much of the funding of this comes from within that nation, which is why they are now mounting threats to force these facts to remain hidden.

And yet you endorse the Saudi notion of what Islam is.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

ksazma posted:

.. . And no one has held her responsible for her son's actions..

Her son didn't kill in her name.  Thousands of lunatics kill in the name of your religion.

Now doesn't that bother you? Apparently not.

While I am clearly bothered by people committing heinous acts in the name of the religion that I profess, my point above was in response to you suggesting that I can do something to stop it..

All I expect from you is to be bothered about the fact that your religion, (once a fountain of knowledge that ALL of us, including the most arrogant white American, owe a debt of gratitude), has been seized by primitive tribalists with their anti intellectual traditions.  Turns out even anti the Muslim intellectual tradition.

If you and the other 1 billion plus non tribal Muslims expressed your opinion then this issue will end.  Those who wish to foment mayhem will have to find some other vehicle to do so.

So its not on you alone. Its on all of those Muslims who are horrified by what lunatics are doing to the image of your religion.

Surely there is some Muslim collectivity which can speak loudly to the Saudis, and others, with their sick interpretation of Islam.  Because it is those people who give credibility to the jihadist quest for "pure" Islam.

ksazma posted:

.

From all the bigotry I see on television, I doubt any of those people care if they are accused as harassing the Muslim "holy land". .

My experience is that more Muslims understand Islam much more than people of other religions understand their religion. We were single digits years kids who through the teachings gained at our madrassahs explain our religion, its concepts, beliefs and rituals. .

AAAh the maddrassahs, training ground for terrorists in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

I rest my case.

ksazma posted:

.  Nor do I think it provides the answer to the Saudi influence around the Muslim world. Oil does and that is where the West can squeeze the Saudis balls but no one wants to do so. It is almost like no one wants a resolution to all this terrorism going on around the world.

The West will gladly demonize its sibling rival religion, by allowing its tribalist elements to define what that religion is.

So Bill Maher can go on TV every Friday and describe tribal culture in the Middle East and South Asia, claim that this is the belief system of 1.5 billion people, and then encourage bigotry to be directed towards Muslims who live in the West.

If you are waiting for the West to solve the Muslim image problem wait again.  Note to you. Muslims suffer  more from jihadist lunacy than any one else.  With every passing day, another act.  Sorry for the poor British, French or American Muslim kid who has to go to school and then suffer the embarrassment of all of this.

It is up to Muslims to remove the tribal Saudi influence on Islam!

ksazma posted:

.

I am curious to know what these people are told when inspiring them to commit these acts. I doubt it has anything to do with any interpretation from the Qur'an. There is the common argument about virgins in heaven. It is strange that men will pass up on ***** right here on earth and instead blow themselves up to get ***** in heaven. Or as Mars would argue, batty. So what are they telling these people as they recruit them to their evil cause. I don't know nor do I care but it would be good to know whet they are telling these people as they go about motivating them. I always thought it was more a geopolitical campaign which makes it more political than religious. The Saudis laws are based more on their tribal and cultural inclinations than on the Qur'an but claim that they are following the Qur'an. Why would the Saudis claim that women driving cars is against Islam when the Prophet's most favorite wife other than his first one Khadijah rode camels considering that she had to straddle the camel which women do not have to do in cars. Malala is from Pakistan and her pain came at the hands of tribal customs which are against Islam. The Prophet advised that if a parent has a son and daughter and can only afford to educate one, he should educate the daughter because she is the future mother of the nation. So how can someone assault Malala for seeking an education and then claim that it is Islamic. Most parents in the world today would probably be inclined to educate their sons than daughter using the argument that the son if the future caretaker of the household. Yes Saudi's influence on the Muslim world has not been positive. We don't all need to dress like Arabs, talk like them or act like them. I have made that very clear for a very long time. I don't wear my gowns to mosques but not because I don't like them or wish to boycott the Saudi dress style. I chose not to wear them because I don't see how they remain clean when so much of it is exposed to the elements. And after, cleanliness is next to Godliness in Islam.

They are told that the West is an evil place and that moderate Muslims are corrupted.  That the "pure" Islam is defined by Saudi tribalism.

This brainwashing is well funded, and clearly there are powerful interests which are behind all of this.

You say that Muslims know more about their religion.  So how come they don't know that Mohammed didn't treat women as objects?

Take Saudi tribal culture out of Islam and problem solved!

It is a known fact that the fastest way to eliminate poverty is to educate women as they are the ones who transmit culture to their kids. It is also a serious fallacy to claim that women cannot be important bread winners. Have you seen who works in most countries these days?  Almost as many women as men.

caribny posted:

ksazma posted:

When the conspiracy theories started spinning, I too found them more plausible than regular Muslims being able to pull off such a sophisticated operation. The story of all those Jews not showing up for work that day also played into that narrative since it is not secret that Jews are very smart sophisticated people. ..

Muslims used to be the conduit through which sophisticated thought was transmitted around the Euro Asian African land masses.  The concept of mathematics was developed by Muslims, who were also the foundation of science.  Baghdad, Cairo, Casablanca, and Timbuktu were sophisticated intellectual centers in an era when the Germans and the British were banging each other with clubs, and where cannibalism wasn't unknown.

This is the problem that the Muslim world has to face. Some where along your history nomadic groups seized control and Islam became anti intellectual, hence your disbelief that Muslims can be sophisticated.

So here we are.  A Tribal Islam setting out to eliminate classical Islam by destroying the artifacts at Timbuktu!

In fact as recently as the 60s Egypt and Iraq were fairly sophisticated countries on par with Israel, the latter only being advanced because of the massive aid that it received from the USA. It was military dictatorships which destroyed these Arab lands.

I know but those days are gone. There are still bright Muslims but they don't have that same sophistication that they once did. I once read that the Muslim world had the technology for the press 200 years before it actually came into being but were too lackadaisical in inventing it. The lament was that Muslims could have had the opportunity to flooded the world with the mass printing of the Qur'an. But there again, that is a very geopolitical approach to expanding the Muslim world. Instead, Muslims continued to handwrite the Qur'an throughout the centuries and we still boast of its unchanged form. The world has moved and Muslims have been left behind and I agree that the Saudi influence is dumbing down the religion but those are no reasons for Muslims to abandon their faith nor anglicize it. Speaking of great education, check out these two high school grads GPA this year.

ksazma posted:

.

I know but those days are gone. There are still bright Muslims but they don't have that same sophistication that they once did. I once read that the Muslim world had the technology for the press 200 years before it actually came into being but were too lackadaisical in inventing it. The lament was that Muslims could have had the opportunity to flooded the world with the mass printing of the Qur'an. But there again, that is a very geopolitical approach to expanding the Muslim world. Instead, Muslims continued to handwrite the Qur'an throughout the centuries and we still boast of its unchanged form. The world has moved and Muslims have been left behind and I agree that the Saudi influence is dumbing down the religion but those are no reasons for Muslims to abandon their faith nor anglicize it. Speaking of great education, check out these two high school grads GPA this year.

Who is saying Anglicize Islam?  Why is removing tribal influences from Islam Anglicizing it? Why not communicate that in the ORIGINAL Islam women had MORE rights than did Christian or Jewish women, so this contemporary behavior is Bedouin culture? 

Why the slavish genuflection to Arab norms. Even in the Caribbean some Muslim women are adopting Arab attire, claiming that this is based on religion?  This isn't part of their contemporary Caribbean culture, nor was it part of their South Asian culture.

Why the GROWING influence of this tribal culture? Why is it allowed to increasingly define expected norms of what being a Muslim is?

Look at how Moroccan and Egyptian women are being harassed to dress like nomads!

In Christianity local languages are used.  No longer Latin. This so that people can understand and participate.

So what's up with Islam where every thing is in a language not spoken by the vast majority of the faith?

caribny posted:

And on what basis did the mother justify this behavior?

 

Likewise, over 95% of the global Muslim population does not justify the actions of these terrorists acts. The hypocrisy is in insisting that Muslims control the actions of some lunatic halfway around world when they would not hold a mother responsible for the actions of her young child who lives in the same house that she did.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

And on what basis did the mother justify this behavior?

 

Likewise, over 95% of the global Muslim population does not justify the actions of these terrorists acts. The hypocrisy is in insisting that Muslims control the actions of some lunatic halfway around world when they would not hold a mother responsible for the actions of her young child who lives in the same house that she did.

Do Muslims condemn the fact that in the HOLY LAND, the country that you all look to in order to define what Islam is (use of Arab language as an example) this is considered Islamic?

You cannot remain silent about nomads passing off their tribal culture, and then distance yourself from it when the influence of these people is pointed out to you.

THIS is what I expect Muslims to do.  I do NOT expect Muslims to catch terrorists.  There are many reasons why this exists.  I expect Muslims to redefine Islam to block out any space where tribal belief systems can exist that will provide a moral justification for jihadis!

When North African boys in Paris harass North African girls because they don't wear a hijab, do Muslims condemn this?  Why is this allowed to define what being a Muslim is? It will not shock me that those doing the harassment are probably wearing shorts and vests in those increasingly hot Parisian summers.

caribny posted:

 

Who is saying Anglicize Islam?  Why is removing tribal influences from Islam Anglicizing it? Why not communicate that in the ORIGINAL Islam women had MORE rights than did Christian or Jewish women, so this contemporary behavior is Bedouin culture? 

Why the slavish genuflection to Arab norms. Even in the Caribbean some Muslim women are adopting Arab attire, claiming that this is based on religion?  This isn't part of their contemporary Caribbean culture, nor was it part of their South Asian culture.

Why the GROWING influence of this tribal culture? Why is it allowed to increasingly define expected norms of what being a Muslim is?

Look at how Moroccan and Egyptian women are being harassed to dress like nomads!

In Christianity local languages are used.  No longer Latin. This so that people can understand and participate.

So what's up with Islam where every thing is in a language not spoken by the vast majority of the faith?

There are no tribal influence in Islam. The tribalism is connected to Saudi Arabia being passed off as Islam. Yes Saudi has been buying influence with their oil money but most Muslims haven't changed how they pray because of Saudi Arabia. The Saudi influence is mostly geopolitical in hiw people dress, talk, etc. We Muslims don't bellyache over these things because we understand the difference. The trouble is that the West like to pretend they know Islam more than the Muslims and that is why they sound so silly. Look at all the tribal customs in Christian Africa that look so much like the tribal ones in Saudi. Why isn't Christianity doing a better job in eradicating them? The answer is that tribalism is deeply rooted in all of us. Even in Guyana.

BTW in the UK it has been discovered that Indian kids with Hindu (or Christian) backgrounds outperform those with Muslim backgrounds. 

The poorest people in the UK are now those with Muslim backgrounds.  Much of this being due to their (religiously justified) exclusion of females.

caribny posted:

The West is quite happy to ensure that the Middle East remains weak with Islam continuing to be controlled by tribal people, and with Muslims killing each other.   All the better to dominate oil. Generations after oil was discovered Saudi Arabia still remains heavily dependent on westerners to maintain the infrastructure of that industry.

They will act when this lunacy spills into the West, and it will be the Muslims who live in those lands who will suffer as more people like Trump, Boris Johnson and Le Pen gain an audience.  Pity as the Muslims who live in these lands by and large operate outside of this tribal world, with value systems no different from others.

The power brokers of the West remain immune from the lunacy, except in rare moments like 9/11.  In the long run millions of Muslims suffered tremendously for what a few dozen Muslims concocted.

Then they are wasting their time bellyaching. They don't care for a solution any more than the folks over there making them just like the folks over there.

caribny posted:

BTW in the UK it has been discovered that Indian kids with Hindu (or Christian) backgrounds outperform those with Muslim backgrounds. 

The poorest people in the UK are now those with Muslim backgrounds.  Much of this being due to their (religiously justified) exclusion of females.

That is a problem for those Muslims to resolve or risk falling into the abyss. Lots of backs fall through the cracks in America and they are not Muslims so I wouldn't necessarily blame the performance of those Muslims on Islam. I once read that there are more female doctors in Pakistan than they are in America but I have lost my desire to validate it.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

 

.

There are no tribal influence in Islam. The tribalism is connected to Saudi Arabia being passed off as Islam. ..

As far as the jihadis are concerned the tribal version of Islam represents Islam at its purest. This why they kill those who they see as infidels.

Remove these influences from Islam and the religious justification goes away.

It makes no sense arguing that there are no tribal influences in Islam when we have seen growing Saudi-ization even in the Caribbean.

And here is the deal.  Residual tribalism (whether Celtic, African or what ever) doesn't define Christianity. 

The fact that Appalachian Christians kiss snakes and also beat demons out of kids (at times even seriously injuring them) doesn't define the religion. Those people are marginal.  I don't see any one in the USA killing people in New York because we refuse to beat demons out of our kids.

Do yourself a favor and toss the Bedouins to the side the same way.

BTW I define as "tribal" cultural norms that will be considered backward by most right thinking 21st century people.  Beating Kwekwe drums isn't tribal.

caribny posted:

BTW in the UK it has been discovered that Indian kids with Hindu (or Christian) backgrounds outperform those with Muslim backgrounds. 

The poorest people in the UK are now those with Muslim backgrounds.  Much of this being due to their (religiously justified) exclusion of females.

Bwoi, having an Indian Hindu female admirer has done wonders for you...and quick rass!  Caribj seems to be on some path of redemption!!

caribny posted:

So continue to let nomads define Islam.  Just don't get angry when others stereotype you with what they connect to those, and then threaten to have you do a "Sharia test".  That will happen if Trump wins.  I expect him t get at least 48% of the votes.

Nomads don't define Islam. Jimmy Faldwell, Tammy and Faye Baker and Jimmy Swaggart, etc. did not define Christianity so why would Nomads define Islam. Islam is defined by the Qur'an and more than 95% practices that Islam. Those who chose to understand it through the small percentage of evildoers are free to do so. Bigotry has always been around so I don't expect it to go away suddenly. Bigotry has always managed to find a victim whether it is religion, caste, race or name.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

BTW in the UK it has been discovered that Indian kids with Hindu (or Christian) backgrounds outperform those with Muslim backgrounds. 

The poorest people in the UK are now those with Muslim backgrounds.  Much of this being due to their (religiously justified) exclusion of females.

That is a problem for those Muslims to resolve or risk falling into the abyss. Lots of backs fall through the cracks in America and they are not Muslims so I wouldn't necessarily blame the performance of those Muslims on Islam. I once read that there are more female doctors in Pakistan than they are in America but I have lost my desire to validate it.

I am using a controlled group.  Indian immigrants to the UK.  The Sikhs, Hindus and Christians are doing better than the Indian Muslims.  British society views all as "Pakis" and doesn't differentiate in how they are treated.  So the different outcomes reflect something internal to those communities.

What is very apparent is that in the UK Indian Hindu, Sikh, and Christian females are well educated and have high labor force participation.  Indian Muslim women are less educated, and more likely to be stuck in the house.  Pakistani and Bangladeshi women being even worse off than are Indian Muslim women.

The issue with blacks is a legacy of slavery and the remnants of extreme racism specifically directed to that group.  So you cannot make a comparison, except with the similarly stigmatized Native Americans.  Those folks are even worse off.

Pakistan was once a modern nation, but is now sliding backwards to "tribal" Islam, no doubt encouraged by the Saudis.  Malala proves that seeking education can be life threatening for many Pakistani females.

Any way singling out one profession shows nothing.  Its quite clear that US women have far more autonomy over their lives, and more rights over their bodies and over their families than do women in Pakistan. That females in Pakistan might account for a higher % of the doctors than is true in the USA is due to the fact that they have a narrower range of career options.

ksazma posted:

.

Nomads don't define Islam. .

In the eyes of the jihadis they do, so remove Tribal Islam by sidelining Saudi influences and your problems will be solved.

And yes those Tribalists will cite the Koran to justify their beliefs too. That is what the madrasahs in Pakistan and Afghanistan train people to  do.

caribny posted:

 

You think highly of Christians if you believe that it was about religious "morality".

The power elites wanted to get free oil and so invaded one of the largest producers. GREED, not Jesus motivated that move.

Check out how the Bush family has married its involvement in politics with its greed.  Daddy Bush and Saddam had a squabble over a pipe line, so Daddy Bush thought that Saddam should get a spanking. Then that idiot Jamaican, Collin Powell, got in the way and forced an end to the first invasion.  Daddy told Sonny Bush to finish off what he started, and to ensure that Collin Powell complied.

 

Same with the terrorists. They want to have that great Caliphate that once existed but don't care a heck for the 5 articles of faith in Islam. It would be curious to know if these terrorists pray 5 times a day, give charity, fasts in Ramadan or perform the pilgrimage. Notice here that the pilgrimage is one of those articles so Muslims can't just not do it because they have a beef with Saudi especially since Saudi does not won Islam or the Kaaba. Those terrorists are seeking to regain the lost glory of the Caliphate and only use Islam because religion is always a reliable vehicle to ride on. There are four churches occupying the four corners of an intersection near the Miami Dade - Broward County line. My guess is that that has to do with more than just salvation. Religion is big business. 

ksazma posted:

.

 

Same with the terrorists. .

Of course it is convenient for you to limit this discussion to ISIS.  What of the other roaming Jihadi groups intent on foisting their version of Islam on the rest of us.

And again you are denying the role of tribal Islam. Why are women subjected to genital mutilation. In some Muslim lands there is a "religious" basis for this. And what of the "honor killings" of rape victims. Again a religious excuse is cited.

In fact some of the biggest anti Islamic people are females who tried to escape that practice and were brutalized.  They are prized by people who hate Muslims.

Do yourself a favor. Side line those Saudi tribalists.

BTW what is happening in those Christian churches is irrelevant.

The reason why I cannot take liquids on a plane, have to take off my shoes, and belt, and go through a metal detector before boarding a plane is because some Muslim identified folks don't know how to be nice when flying on planes.   And this isn't because the Muslims are holding us up to steal our money, cards, and electronic devices.

caribny posted:

All I expect from you is to be bothered about the fact that your religion, (once a fountain of knowledge that ALL of us, including the most arrogant white American, owe a debt of gratitude), has been seized by primitive tribalists with their anti intellectual traditions.  Turns out even anti the Muslim intellectual tradition.

If you and the other 1 billion plus non tribal Muslims expressed your opinion then this issue will end.  Those who wish to foment mayhem will have to find some other vehicle to do so.

So its not on you alone. Its on all of those Muslims who are horrified by what lunatics are doing to the image of your religion.

Surely there is some Muslim collectivity which can speak loudly to the Saudis, and others, with their sick interpretation of Islam.  Because it is those people who give credibility to the jihadist quest for "pure" Islam.

Sure I am bothered but I can't do anything about it. That kind of behavior does not exist in our house. If you expect me to do something about it you would be greatly disappointed especially since the mosque is no more than a place to pray for me. All the great military and intelligence minds in the West seems to not have the solution either. Now if you expect me to denounce Islam, I will have to disappoint you.   That feeling of peace and tranquility I experience when I make prostration is unmatched for me. Can't give that up even for a cool dude like you.

caribny posted:

AAAh the maddrassahs, training ground for terrorists in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

I rest my case.

Madrassah means school so any school in Pakistan would be a madrassah.    Didn't remember learning about explosives in madrassah in Guyana so I don't know why you are resting your case.

ksazma posted:

.. All the great military and intelligence minds in the West seems to not have the solution either. .

I think that my denunciation is about tribal customs which are disguised as Muslim behavior. 

Do you support honor killing, genital mutilation, abuse of females, or murderous religious  intolerance? No you don't.  Do you consider that to be Islamic?  No you don't.

Do you know that others justify their thuggery by insisting that this is Islamic? Yes you do. 

So ought you not as a Muslim, within communities where you participate as a Muslim, insist that this not be passed off as "pure" Islam?  I say the collective "you" because for all I know some at your mosque might have no problem with tribal Islam.  So you as an individual might be powerless.

As to the military might of the West.   Hmmm.  Between the ambitions of Israel and the desire to ensure access to the densest source of energy on this planet I think that you will agree that encouraging Muslims to kill each other is definitely a plan.  

It has already been commented that the West only cares about terror victims if they exist in Paris, Brussels, or MAYBE Istanbul, as many visit there.  So to think that the solution lies from those sources is really simple.

  The West will make life very difficult for Muslims who live in the West if terrorism continues.  There was a movie a few years ago when all the Muslims living in NYC were put in concentration camps. Think on this, especially if Trump wins.

ksazma posted:

caribny posted:

AAAh the maddrassahs, training ground for terrorists in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

I rest my case.

Madrassah means school so any school in Pakistan would be a madrassah.    Didn't remember learning about explosives in madrassah in Guyana so I don't know why you are resting your case.

I rest my case because the fact that some madrasahs are used as terror training camps suggest that there is institutional support for this behavior from a segment of the Muslim religion.

Why do Muslims not close down such places?

ksazma posted:

. That feeling of peace and tranquility I experience when I make prostration ..

If I were Mars or Redux I would say something but I will leave that alone.

caribny posted:

The West will gladly demonize its sibling rival religion, by allowing its tribalist elements to define what that religion is.

So Bill Maher can go on TV every Friday and describe tribal culture in the Middle East and South Asia, claim that this is the belief system of 1.5 billion people, and then encourage bigotry to be directed towards Muslims who live in the West.

If you are waiting for the West to solve the Muslim image problem wait again.  Note to you. Muslims suffer  more from jihadist lunacy than any one else.  With every passing day, another act.  Sorry for the poor British, French or American Muslim kid who has to go to school and then suffer the embarrassment of all of this.

It is up to Muslims to remove the tribal Saudi influence on Islam!

Of course the West will gladly demonize Islam which explains why so many Muslims don't lose sleep over them since they cannot take away their faith. Now they do try to secure their socio-economic and political opportunities since those can be repressed. I doubt that Muslims lose sleep wondering when Anglo Saxons will accept them as equal because they don't have much confidence in it happening regardless of how Muslims live. Blacks have been fighting for a much longer time and we still have a Trump winning the Republican nomination partly on the claim that blacks are brutes. Very seldom will the efforts of anyone change the mind of a bigot. My need for an end to all this terrorism has nothing to do with changing peoples' minds. It is because I am sick and tired of all the violence and bloodshed.

Kari posted:

Mars posted:

I've seen the excuses here time and again. Bush brought down the twin towers, Al Qaeda, the Taliban are not Muslims. The West should not attack ISIS, leave them to duke it out. It creates an air of distrust when people deny the obvious. 

 

I've seen the excuses here time and again.

Another idiot. A hater. A bigot.

Do you not think you are off on a limp here? As I stated previously, I have personally argued with every muslin on this site at one time or another and the only one I see not making excuse or blaming the victim is Riff. I would have added you to the lonely list but you just called the man names for stating a fact and so  you disqualified yourself. You are now in the category of the excuse and that list is long

ASJ said  the taliban were Muslim soldiers fighting the US because the US are killer of women and children ( ironic since the Taliban has no qualms doing that and often). Chief, Abu shi.thead, Terry Ishmael, Kazima et al all said the US bombed the WTC because the evil neocons wanted to go to war to steal oil. Chief said ISIS was Muslims doing their thing and the US had no right to be on Muslim lands ( don't know who give Muslim alone right to these lands)

I do not give a damn about any religion and lump them in the same box but I have been called worse than you did for asking for a reformation. One muslim was driven of this site, a professor, alias dara Silko, for agreeing with me that there ought to be a reformation in Islam where the clerics come together and affirm articles of the faith so it be very clear to worshipers. 

I still think that is necessary. Lacking that Muslims are without a basis to say Muslims believe this or that.  It therefore leaves the religion subject to any moron establishing themselves official interpreters of the faith (as is the case presently with terrorist fermenting imams) and say the west is evil and killing evil people is a secure way to heaven.

caribny posted:

1) They are told that the West is an evil place and that moderate Muslims are corrupted.  That the "pure" Islam is defined by Saudi tribalism.

This brainwashing is well funded, and clearly there are powerful interests which are behind all of this.

2) You say that Muslims know more about their religion.  So how come they don't know that Mohammed didn't treat women as objects?

3) Take Saudi tribal culture out of Islam and problem solved!

4) It is a known fact that the fastest way to eliminate poverty is to educate women as they are the ones who transmit culture to their kids. It is also a serious fallacy to claim that women cannot be important bread winners. Have you seen who works in most countries these days?  Almost as many women as men.

1) That is how people beat the war drums. Before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Glen Beck used to beat the war drum by saying that Iraq was a cesspool of terrorism. In war the objective is always to demonize the opposition. These terrorists do it also. And just like how so many Americans believed Bush and Powell's lie about Iraq's WMD so do some Muslims believe these terrorists.

2) Sure. Most Muslims know Islam very well and they don't treat their women as objects. The ones who seek to subjugate their women will do so. Keep in mind that status of women was vastly improved by Muhammad. But the teachings of Islam did not intend that the status of women should remain where Muhammad left it. Changing with times is highly supported by Islamic teachings as the Qur'an reference replacing something with something better. 

3) Saudi isn't in Islam. Saudi's oil wealth has allowed them to buy Muslims' influence though.

4) And the Prophet said that over 15 centuries ago.

caribny posted:

Who is saying Anglicize Islam?  Why is removing tribal influences from Islam Anglicizing it? Why not communicate that in the ORIGINAL Islam women had MORE rights than did Christian or Jewish women, so this contemporary behavior is Bedouin culture? 

Why the slavish genuflection to Arab norms. Even in the Caribbean some Muslim women are adopting Arab attire, claiming that this is based on religion?  This isn't part of their contemporary Caribbean culture, nor was it part of their South Asian culture.

Why the GROWING influence of this tribal culture? Why is it allowed to increasingly define expected norms of what being a Muslim is?

Look at how Moroccan and Egyptian women are being harassed to dress like nomads!

In Christianity local languages are used.  No longer Latin. This so that people can understand and participate.

So what's up with Islam where every thing is in a language not spoken by the vast majority of the faith?

Muslims have been performing their religious rituals in Arabic from the beginning of Islam. They have continued it even through those years which you mentioned where they were responsible for having greatness. If it was not a hindrance then, it is definitely not a hindrance now. Muslims read the Qur'an it their local language all over the world but they also recite it in Arabic.

caribny posted:

Do Muslims condemn the fact that in the HOLY LAND, the country that you all look to in order to define what Islam is (use of Arab language as an example) this is considered Islamic?

You cannot remain silent about nomads passing off their tribal culture, and then distance yourself from it when the influence of these people is pointed out to you.

THIS is what I expect Muslims to do.  I do NOT expect Muslims to catch terrorists.  There are many reasons why this exists.  I expect Muslims to redefine Islam to block out any space where tribal belief systems can exist that will provide a moral justification for jihadis!

When North African boys in Paris harass North African girls because they don't wear a hijab, do Muslims condemn this?  Why is this allowed to define what being a Muslim is? It will not shock me that those doing the harassment are probably wearing shorts and vests in those increasingly hot Parisian summers.

Condemning something only serve to appease some objective. It does nothing to solve the problem. There are people and nations with power who can take the correct stand. Nations like us who have placed economic sanctions on rogue nations to influence their corrective efforts. Saudi has had a very influential role in the Muslim world which they are able to buy because of their oil wealth. We never bothered to take a stand to change Saudi errant ways. That is more our fault than Muslims level of condemnation of terrorists. How do anyone know how many Muslims have a problem with terrorism is they don't bother to ask them. Even the many times I have mentioned my opposition to it on this topic alone and I have no delusion that I altered anyone here bout my position. So what you are seeking is something in futility because as many times as it is done, those who don't care wouldn't care.

caribny posted:

As far as the jihadis are concerned the tribal version of Islam represents Islam at its purest. This why they kill those who they see as infidels.

 

And they are less than 5% of the global Muslim population. The other 95+% is more than an acceptable sample size who disagree with them. In any other scenario, that would be a massive landslide.

caribny posted:

ksazma posted:

.

When the conspiracy theories started spinning, I too found them more plausible than regular Muslims being able to pull off such a sophisticated operation. The story of all those Jews not showing up for work that day also played into that narrative since it is not secret that Jews are very smart sophisticated people. ..

Muslims used to be the conduit through which sophisticated thought was transmitted around the Euro Asian African land masses.  The concept of mathematics was developed by Muslims, who were also the foundation of science.  Baghdad, Cairo, Casablanca, and Timbuktu were sophisticated intellectual centers in an era when the Germans and the British were banging each other with clubs, and where cannibalism wasn't unknown.

This is the problem that the Muslim world has to face. Some where along your history nomadic groups seized control and Islam became anti intellectual, hence your disbelief that Muslims can be sophisticated.

So here we are.  A Tribal Islam setting out to eliminate classical Islam by destroying the artifacts at Timbuktu!

In fact as recently as the 60s Egypt and Iraq were fairly sophisticated countries on par with Israel, the latter only being advanced because of the massive aid that it received from the USA. It was military dictatorships which destroyed these Arab lands.

You are taking liberties. The Greeks give us the basis of much of mathematics. They were limited because of a convenient number system. Arabs brought the decimal system from Indian and introduced it to the west and indeed that was a great seeding of mathematical thought. Arabs give us algebra and the theory of optics. They were also good at medicine.  Avicenna was the authority on medicine until recently but he held that working with the dead to be sin so could not penetrate further into the mechanics of the body that was only discoverable via autopsies.  Modern medicine could only arise with a disease pathology and that came with  Anton van Leeuwenhoek  who declared that"there be wee little beasties" on looking through a microscope he developed. Muslim astronomy catalogued and named many of the naked eyes stars but again they were building on earlier Greek work. Much of this was also located mainly with Persian scholars. Indeed Muslim can take indirect benefit for seeding the renaissance by the collapse of Constantinople.  It held a great archive of Greek thought stored there by muslims.

caribny posted:

I am using a controlled group.  Indian immigrants to the UK.  The Sikhs, Hindus and Christians are doing better than the Indian Muslims.  British society views all as "Pakis" and doesn't differentiate in how they are treated.  So the different outcomes reflect something internal to those communities.

What is very apparent is that in the UK Indian Hindu, Sikh, and Christian females are well educated and have high labor force participation.  Indian Muslim women are less educated, and more likely to be stuck in the house.  Pakistani and Bangladeshi women being even worse off than are Indian Muslim women.

The issue with blacks is a legacy of slavery and the remnants of extreme racism specifically directed to that group.  So you cannot make a comparison, except with the similarly stigmatized Native Americans.  Those folks are even worse off.

Pakistan was once a modern nation, but is now sliding backwards to "tribal" Islam, no doubt encouraged by the Saudis.  Malala proves that seeking education can be life threatening for many Pakistani females.

Any way singling out one profession shows nothing.  Its quite clear that US women have far more autonomy over their lives, and more rights over their bodies and over their families than do women in Pakistan. That females in Pakistan might account for a higher % of the doctors than is true in the USA is due to the fact that they have a narrower range of career options.

I used the doctor scenario because I regard doctors in high esteem. The Kardashians have lots of autonomy over their lives but I would be inclined to use them as an example for coveted achievements.   There have been several female Muslim head of states while we have not gotten to that point as yet. We have had three women VP candidates and none of those ever ascend office.

All of this have nothing to do with Islam anyway because the Prophet already decreed that the education preference should be given to the daughter.

caribny posted:

As far as the jihadis are concerned the tribal version of Islam represents Islam at its purest. This why they kill those who they see as infidels.

Remove these influences from Islam and the religious justification goes away.

It makes no sense arguing that there are no tribal influences in Islam when we have seen growing Saudi-ization even in the Caribbean.

And here is the deal.  Residual tribalism (whether Celtic, African or what ever) doesn't define Christianity. 

The fact that Appalachian Christians kiss snakes and also beat demons out of kids (at times even seriously injuring them) doesn't define the religion. Those people are marginal.  I don't see any one in the USA killing people in New York because we refuse to beat demons out of our kids.

Do yourself a favor and toss the Bedouins to the side the same way.

BTW I define as "tribal" cultural norms that will be considered backward by most right thinking 21st century people.  Beating Kwekwe drums isn't tribal.

If practices like all those Phillippinos who pale themselves at Easter time don't define Christianity, why do you think that more than 95% of Muslims will care to lose sleep worrying if the actions of these terrorists defines Islam or if non-Muslims feel that way?