Good morning Redux and how are you today?

What amazes and disappoint me at the same time is how some folks are only seeing race and nothing else.

When I write about the ills of the PPP ia m being labelled a PNC. wHEN i WRITE ABOUT THE ILLS OF THE pnc Iam being called a low level racist.

No wonder Guyana is in the mess it is in.

Everyone have a blessed day back to my work screen.

i never called u a PNC

i'm calling u out as a tribal spear carrier with serious, dangerous [i have been re-reading your recent posts], unacknowledged race issues . . .

u are simply a useful idiot to the PPP . . . a fellow traveler, not a true believer

Redux

Please look in the mirror.

In my everyday life I do deeds of kindness across skin color so you contiun in your small blinded racist world.

i have absolutely no doubt that you do . . .

but THAT doesn't change what I said

Does the fact that the WPA and people like David Hinds and Rupert Roopnarine are NOW an integral INVOLVED IN APNU not indicate that your insistence that the PNC needs to apologize is irrelevant.

However you cut it tyhe people who were most impacted by the Burnham dictatorship are now in bed with the PNC indicates that they DO NOT SEE an apology is relevant. Clearly in 2011 they made a decision that the contemporary PPP is WORSE than is the contemporary PNC, so they are in alliance with their former enemies.

So who do you think are waiting for an apology if people like Roopnarain, and Hinds arent?

Tell me something when Kari said that the PNC should beg Indians for forgiveness in order that some small % should support them, wasnt there a racial component in that?  He specified Indians.  The second largest bloc (blacks and mixed) already support the PNC and ARE NOT asking for any apologies.  Most are too young to care about 40 years ago, and even older people are now more concerned about the present.

To most Guyanese talking about Burnham is like you and I talking about the early 60s.  We have vague memories of it as small kids, and most of our knowledge is from reading about it, and I doubt that that era seriously impacts how we view life in Guyana.   To me a rehash of the 60s is one of the most boring topics out, and I suspect that your typical Guyanese voter (around 35) views the 70s in the same way.  Most of those who were adults in that era are long dead.

What do they see today.  The WPA being a critical part of the APNU coalition.  Indeed some argue that it was the speeches of Roopnarine and Hinds, and not the lackluster speeches by Hinds, which inspired the surprsii9ng voter turn out for APNU, especially in places like Region 3 and 9 where the PNC normally did poorly.

Why does it only become "racial" when we inject that the fact that the behavior of the PPP (and the 3% Indian elite) towards blacks over the past 20 years (and especially since Cheddie died) will trigger an angry response from significant % of this group who support the PNC becaus ethey want them to protect black people against this racism?

  Are you seriously debating that the PNC and the PPP arent black and Indians parties respectively?  I guess the source of their vote and the   composition of their leadership (aside from a few tokens) escapes your notice.

1.  From the very beginning of the PPP/PNC divide open and closet appeaks to race were made.  The PPP because they felt that an Indian majority guaranteed their victory, given the paranoia of tahyt group about black rule.  The PNC because they knew that blacks and many mized Guyanese were paranoid about what their collective fates will be under an Indian dominated regime, and so exploited it.

2.  Cheddi always operated always operated as if was the "rightful" winner because his base was THEN the majority of the voters. Most Guyanese dont support communism, so this was clearly a reference to race.

'

3.  Burnham rigged the elections, with the complicit support of most of the blacks, because they saw the PPP as an Indian party, still remembered what happened to them in the 60s, so held their noses and accepted this as thy saw this as their only way to survive against dominance by an Indian party.  Until life became hard in the late 70s Burnham faced minimal oppoistion from blacks.

4.  Even though most Indians are even less likely to support communism than are most blacks, they still supported the PPP as a vehicle to protect them against their fears of what will happen to them if a black dominated party won (the fears PRIOR to the Burnham regime). Of course the behavior of the PNC confirmed their belief.

5.  22 years of PPP rule has confirmed in the minds of most blacks of what will happen to them with an Indian dominated government.  So regretfully a new YOUNG group if blacks, who dont know what happened during the Burnham regime, are resurrecting him as a "hero" and are seriously angry with people like me who claim that, not only is he NOT a hero, but much of what now ails blacks is due to HIM!  I have been to several meetings where open disputes on this topic have occurred, including one where poor Eusi was maligned as carrying on a "personal beef against Burnham".

Now all of this is clearly beyond your capacity to understand but it is what it is.  85% of Guyana is about two races (including the black identified mixed population) who are paranoid of each other. While they respect each other as individuals, and there is little tension on a day to day basis, these doesnt change the fact that on a collective basis they FEAR each other, to the extent that BOTH have supported and kept aloivfe some of the most corrupt and incompetent leadership in the Caribbean.  Despite our vast and untapped natural resource base, and the tremendous talents of our people, we remain the POOREST nation in the English speaking Caribbean.

Chief I am not going to comment on the psychology of the grass roots Indians.  Africans are however different.  Our legacy of slavery and intense colonialism means that we DO NOT trust each other.  Macchiaveliian tactics by Burnham deepened this lack of trust.

So if these people think that the PNC elite is selling them out tehy will stay home, as they did in 2006 and in 1994.  Note that Trotman apologized for the PNC misrule of the Burnham era, and urged his fellow PNC officials to do the same.

Result was that he was booted out of the party, and more tellingly, has FAILED to bring with him a significant % of the black vote.  Did this apology win him support from Indians? NO.  It is only when Nagamootoo jumped in that the AFC won some support among Berbician Indians.

Your request for an apology is naive, even though coming from a good place.

It's a fact that blacks shifted their votes away from the PNC  AND VOTED \AFC whilst Indians remained with the PPP.

The Indian voters need to wake up and I think we will see that at the next general elections.

No chief in 2006 blacks shifted to the AFC, or stayed home when they were angry with Corbin. This because they thought that he was drinking Jagdeo milk.

In 2011 APNU enjoyed a significant increase in votes, especially in regions 3, 4, 7, and 10.  AFC LOST votes in those regions. Obviously black/mixed voters came out, and/or shifted votes to APNU.

The AFC did relatively well in regions 5 and 6, while APNU held their own, the loser being the PPP.  Clearly some Indians followed Nagamootoo away from the PPP.

The AFC is where people register their protest votes, but we cannot say to what degree it has developed its own constituency outside of portions of the G/twn middle class.

You and I live in different worlds. I am not into abrading ancient wound or disinterring old corpse. I am not into political paleontology. I am into addressing basic needs as they exist and the fabrication of structures that addresses systemic political failings.

The Rodney inquest offered no new information beyond what was known. That it was held now is galling. The corrupt PPP did not care about the facts. It cared about political mileage and cover they can get for their political bad practices.

To ask for an apology and make that a theme at this time is just another devious strategy of distraction. I doubt the young in Guyana who see the bleeding of the society think the PNC apologizing for events three decades ago is ever helpful. Making sure the PPP minority government understand their grandfather did not leave state to them as their inheritance will. There is blood in the water on both sides.

There is dead to be disinterred from killings by each of these parties. There are wounds to the the psyche of our people caused by both. The injury caused by one side has been 3 decades ago. The other is on going ans the party involved is not only in denial. They are asking the other side to apologize!

Apologies are a waste of time. Systems that constrain injustices to our people are what we should be worrying about.

Basically the Rodney Commission will achieve nothing.

1. Those most impacted, WPA leaders, are now in an alliance with the PNC.  They know what happened in 1980 more than the rest of us know.  Yet they chose the PNC to form an alliance with.  NOT the PPP, and Roopnarain and Hinds have been very vocal about the reasons why.

2.  Most Guyanese dont care.

3.  Those who will be adversely impacted by this discussion in how they perceive the PNC will not vote for them anyway.

4.  Those who dont like the PPP will not change their minds.

5.  As D2 said no new info was provided, so it was a waste of time.  What we want to know is who organized the killing of a govt minister and some of his relatives?  Why does the PPP not seem interesting in finding and punishing the culprits are? Why is some one connected to teh Lusignan massacres, as well as allegedly Bartica, Agricola, and Linwood Creek, walking free without punishment?  Why did the PPP protect Roger Khan?

Pnc cannot gain the trust of the majority for a long long long time.  Maybe when carbin and hammie Dead.

The PPP never rigged election, they never stole the franchise of the people, the PNC did.  The PNC used very oppressive and brutal means to keep the aspirations of the Indians in check.  The apology which some are demanding is to do with that, pure and simple.  The fact that the PPP is incompetent and corrupt (the PNC was that also) is not a cause for an apology.  They could/should be voted out if enough feels so.

Many blacks are way better off that anytime under the PNC however, there is a big poverty problem among both Blacks and Indians.  Indians are not immune to poverty however, they handle it differently than blacks and that's a fact regardless how anyone try to twist and turn the story.

That being said, baseman is not in the camp calling for a meaningless and humiliating apology.  I prefer to see a proud and confident PNC who is willing to push for the necessary changes and guarantees which will prevent them and the PPP from exploiting the fears among each side.

A sincere apology regardless by whom is always very welcomed.

The PPP never had to rig because they can rely on their spear carrying tribals like you to bend the knees and chant their racist creed. Awee pon tap.

The PNC kept Guyanese in check and when the reaction to them came it was not from the Indian contingency but from the black middle class who carved out the path to their demise. You chose to think a dictatorship was only an indian burden. I do not need to remind you that everyone stood in line for what was available sporadically.

Let me know how Indians handle poverty. Is there a good way vs a bad way to starve or to suffer deprivations? That indians being ,mainly agrarian and rural means they have better access to live off the land and not that they are better culturally disposed to deal with it. Were that the case, our dalit ancestors would not have been under the bottom rung of the social ladder for 6 thousand years. Note our brothers and sisters by blood are still into communal shitting back in the mother land and foraging among the grime. You lived there and so know that well.

There is not an  "apology vs no apology" camp. That is an sententious artifice generated by a couple of knuckle heads who can cite no precedence for any such strategy to conflict resolution. The literature demands that one begin with a state of no guilty party! The reason for this is self evident...it simply breeds rancor!

The one apologizing is deemed flawed and the one receiving the apology is seen as long suffering. How can that be a position from which to build trust? This  never gets to the meat of the matter which is a competition for finite resources of the state. Both are in this competition and that they are at odds means there are wounds are on all sides. The fear of one party for another is never spontaneous but have a legacy. This may seem  real but often it is mostly imagined.

The rant of a fool.  You just don't get it.  You talk too much.

I suggest you investigate what is a rant or not. That I speak a lot mean you have ample chance to discern what is foolish or not. But then you would have to speak and then one might hear braying sounds instead.

And of course you as an Indian are an expert on blacks?  Well they feel distinct hostility against them, and that is what matters.  In addition it is debatable about whether their relative position in Guyana is worse than it was prior to 1973.

Baseman just be honest.  If in 1964 the black population were 50% of the voters the PPP would have been very happy to rig the election and their Indian base would have supported them. 

So don't think that the fact that the PPP, up to now, hasn't rigged is because they have the moral high ground.  They got a rude shock in 2011, when they lost control of parliament, and you bet they will rig to get it back. 

The problem that they have though is the PNC, being riggers, will find them out, and hell will have no fury like a rigger being rigged against.

That is an sententious artifice generated by .........

Ii just got my (humor) fix.......

Storm is that rare creature......a GNI Gem.........

Sorry I haven't followed the topic and checked all the responses but what is "Indian economic ethic?"

I meant to say economic ethos antabanta. The ethos that gives rise to a practice of deferring present gratification for future returns on investment. Hoyte understood investments rather than loans as an engine for growth, but his called for such deferment. Let me know if I can help[ you further understand this Indian mindset.

Qusetion for you CaribJ.

wHAT MAKES YOU FEEL THAT ONE HAS TO BELONG TO THE SAME RACE TO BE AN EXPERT ON IT?

no such thing exists . . . it is the tribalspeak of closet bigots

So you subscribe to the stereotype that Indians in general care more for future return/financial security while blacks only care for the next soiree?

Because in a polarized nation like Guyana people say things among their own that they will not say to others.

Your comments clearly indicate that there are certain conversations that you arent privy to.  Because if you were you would know that many blacks will interpret a PNC apology, not followed by a PPP apology, to be black people having to apologize to Indians.

There is an Indian narrative about politics in Guyana which clearly is th basis for asking for an apology.

There is also an African narrative which will equally see the need for an apology if a party which over 90% of them have supported in free and fair elections since 1992 is asked to apologize.

You didnt factor that, and if you were aware of certain conversations and sentiments you would have.

I even wonder if there is any actual basis for this stereotype in 2014.  Guyanese, regardless of race, are consumerist now. 

People are peddling a stereotype that might have been true 3 generations ago, but is now quite dated.

Who talked about Blacks?

I mentioned Hoyte's admiration for an attribute of the Indians in Guyana. Does that speak to other races or ethnicities. You see race when you want to eh? I'm reminded of Jesse Jackson when he said that being pro-Black does not mean anti-White.

What stereotype and of whom Caribny?

Whenever you post on this Board its IQ took a deep dive.

Indeed you can laugh. It will not increment your intellect. To the contrary, it validates a degree of perceptual impairment for most indians  when it comes to addressing the  black/Indian political schism. Even the so called intellectual class cannot but demand homage to sacred if ancient wounds.

While you did not mention blacks the gist of your post suggests that there was progress in Guyana under Hoyte because he was able to recognize these positive traits in Indians. Why would there be progress solely because of Indian economic ethos? Is economic ethos a genetic attribute reserved for the Indian? 

Thank you for the flattering compliment but I could not possibly be elevated to such company as Jesse Jackson.

If you single out one race it implies comparison with others.  You didnt talk about an entrepreneurial class without mention of ethnicity. 

This is why you get into trouble.

"Indian economic ethos" is just another way of saying what is at the heart of our ethnic divide...black folks are different...they are not like "us". I dare not even broach the idea that Amerinds even have an "ethos" of any kind but that of the subaltern backward others!

You response is rubbish!!!

Your narrow thinking is making you belch out that only a blackman can speak for a blackman and further you are saying that only a whiteman know of issues that affect a whiteman.

You should immediately leave the shores of America and go live in a cave.