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Originally Posted by redux:
Originally Posted by Kari:

Redux, any sports team has reserves that play as hard as they can to sharpen the skills of the players who represent the team. The coach does not ridicule the reserves for pushing the team, it congratulates it. If there are people here who want to see the backs of this PPP Administration but want to make the team that is going to replace it as good as it can be or to give it the best chance to win, then praise them. Do not attempt to characterize your interaction with them as fool's errand. Appreciate the contributions for what they are, and not for what you want them to be.

 

Indeed praise the AFC. Praise APNU. Criticize the PPP. But face the reality of the challenges that Shaitaan and Caribny point out. The track record is there. The demographics are there. The Emigration pattern is there. The psychological factor is there. The race pathology still exists. The absurd irrationality is manifest. Put them all together and show the AFC-APNU coalition how to overcome these challenges. That's better than entreaties of wordy irrelevance.

kari, i regard what you and caribny are trying to do here as distorting and infamous

 

i came to this thread not to 'praise up' the coalition' as u would have people believe, but to:

 

(i) call out Jay Bharrat on his nonsense that embracing the coalition is a "big, big risk"

 

(ii) call you out on your weak, status quo defending "I'm afraid I'm not seeing the new course for a Guyana from anyone" . . . said with a straight face and all

 

what u are doing is in line with your old line that we should tolerate 4-5 more years of PPP mafiya rule . . . the stars not being aligned properly for change right now, etc., etc.

 

no sir, u are not "pushing the team" . . . you are undermining the coalition effort on the not-so-sly much as ksazma does in a more up front way

 

i will continue to call it as i see it . . . with all due respect

Redux, friend......I encourage you to point out the distortions that Caribny and myself are propagating in this Forum, really! I'm not sure I understand the "infamous" characterization, as nothing I've seen in this thread or elsewhere relating to the Elections in Guyana as rising to the status of "infamous".

 

You have every right to praise the coalition, and I agree with praising the coalition, and the courage the AFC has displayed in shaking up the Guyanese polity, bastardized as it has been from since Adam and Eve (and now Steve ).

 

I maintain that the politics of the coalition represent a bold move but the overarching strategy called for patience - hence the 5 more years of mafia PPP rule. I advocate building a true 3-way polity with the AFC as a genuine peer of the PPP and APNU. Now if APNU maintains even 35% of the votes and the AFC gets 16% to 20% (which is where they can get going solo in 2015) then I shall have been proved wrong for calling for  one more cycle and not being bold enough. That's why they count votes.

 

I have no desire to impugn your right t call things for what they are; what I encourage you to do is to see what others are saying truly and not what you think they're saying. That's either a failure in my communications skills or it's on you.

Kari
Originally Posted by Kari:
. . . You have every right to praise the coalition, and I agree with praising the coalition, and the courage the AFC has displayed in shaking up the Guyanese polity, bastardized as it has been from since Adam and Eve (and now Steve ). . .

what's up with the non sequitur here (again)?

 

didn't i just address this kind of bogus argumentation in my earlier response?

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by redux:
.

kari, i regard what you and caribny are trying to do here as distorting and infamous

 

i came to this thread not to 'praise up' the coalition' as u would have people believe, but to:

 

(i) call out Jay Bharrat on his nonsense that embracing the coalition is a "big, big risk"

 

(ii) call you out on your weak, status quo defending "I'm afraid I'm not seeing the new course for a Guyana from anyone" . . . said with a straight face and all

 

what u are doing is in line with your old line that we should tolerate 4-5 more years of PPP mafiya rule . . . the stars not being aligned properly for change right now, etc., etc.

 

no sir, u are not "pushing the team" . . . you are undermining the coalition effort on the not-so-sly much as ksazma does in a more up front way

 

i will continue to call it as i see it . . . with all due respect

What astonishes me about redux is how much time he spends attacking fellow anti PPPites.  Merely because they exercise a pragmatism while he is lost in idealism.

 

1.  The coalition is a risk.  Firstly because some of the PPP Nagamootoo voters who supported him in 2011 might vote PPP, or simply not vote.  Unable to bring themselves to voting for a PNC led coalition. 

 

Secondly because in any coalition there are always tensions between the bigger and more powerful party, and the smaller one. In Guyana it becomes even worse as some people like Nagamootoo saw some in the PNC as mortal enemies for most of their political life.

 

2. Kari has always spoken about Guyana's economy being taken to the next level.  He is saying that he hasn't heard APNU AFC plans for this.  Is there anything wrong with some one querying about Guyana no longer remaining a basic commodity producer, subject to all the vagaries of global commodity prices, over which it has no control? 

 

Indeed such plans will be what will excite young voters, as they will be the biggest beneficiaries should Guyana develop more vibrant manufacturing and service based export sectors, given that the population is much less rural oriented.

 

Bharrat, Kari, and Caribj MADE NO suggestion that any of us want to see the PPP again.  Bharrat is always begging for money for the AFC, and Kari and I offer constructive criticism. 

 

I feel confident that if either Granger or Nagamootoo engaged us in conversation, we would raise the same concerns, more diplomatically of course.  Indeed Granger seems to spend much of his time on meet and greet tours, and seems to listen to people.  I suspect of people offered suggestions in a polite manner he would listen to them.

FM
Originally Posted by caribny:

BTW redux I saw a letter I one of the Guyanese papers condemning the murder of Crum Ewing.  I suspect that the Karimullah, who was one of the signers, is the same Kari who you are now claiming to be a closet PPP.

 

Kari can say whether I am right or wrong.

CaribJ

all Decent Guyanese are proud of Crum Ewing.

He Lived & Die in Guyana...

Thousands bid farewell

to Courtney Crum-Ewing

http://www.kaieteurnewsonline....courtney-crum-ewing/

March 19, 2015 | By | Filed Under News 

crom ewing funeral - acrom ewing funeral - bMajor General (Rtd) Joe Singh addressed the crowd, hailing Crum-Ewing as a maverick who took orders from no one, but recognized that an injustice was done and rather than pay lip service, went out and made his feelings known, regardless if anyone accompanied him.

 

He had one clear message....

Vote for the AFC-APNU Alliance....

End Corruption, Incompetence & Excuses...

 

He used his Bull Horn to Deliver that Message...

He did not Deliver any of the "Bull Poop" or "Goat Shit"  like you....

Never Not ONCE.....NO TIME....NOT ONCE.

He was cut down by those Goat Shit People.

 

The Ballot will stop the Bullet...

 

LETTER: J as in the first letter of my sweet son's name [and my hubby ...

This is about supporting

Right or Wrong...

Good or Evil...

Which side are you on?

Are you on the Right Side?

https://guyana.crowdstack.io/topic/cr...ntry-say-53-patriots

 

Which Queen’s College tradition will we stand for?

March 15, 2015 | By | Filed Under Letters 
 

Dear Editor, In October 2014, the media released a private conversation in which the current Attorney-General Anil Nandlall is heard making threats against the Kaieteur News for critical coverage, discussing how to get the sexual services of a young woman for a relative and admitting to taking government money for private purposes. Near the end of the call, Nandlall, an alumnus of Queen’s College, states: “Is Queen’s College people does run this country, you nah realize that?”

Queen’s College, seen by so many for so long as one of the top schools in Guyana, can stand for different traditions. One is the reproduction of the status quo, the politics of exclusion, of climbing the ladder and kicking it away when you get to the top. It’s about clinging on to your power and your privilege, no matter what the cost, no matter what the price. The most recent and vulgar example of this part of the Queen’s College heritage is represented by these actions of Anil Nandlall, the Queen’s College graduate who occupies the office of the Attorney-General.

There is another tradition that has also always been part of the Queen’s College heritage. It is about saying no to abuse. It has to do with speaking back to power. It has to do with taking a stand whatever the cost. It has to do with breaking the silence despite the fear, and because of the fear. This tradition was for example represented in the hope that resided in two alumni (Forbes Burnham and Cheddi Jagan), when in 1953 Guyana took the world by storm, before things fell apart , before our beloved country fell into a deep anti-democratic slumber that started close to a half-century ago and from which we have still not awoken. It is represented by Walter Rodney. It is represented most recently by Courtney Crum-Ewing, a QC alumnus of the same generation as Mr. Nandlall, who tragically, heart sickeningly, was gunned down earlier this week while calling out people in his community to vote in May.

When Mr. Nandlall, who occupies the office of the Attorney-General, says ‘Is QC people does run this country,” let us understand that the tradition which he represents feeds off little more than contempt for Guyanese other than a select few.

I ask as a Guyanese woman, which tradition will we stand for?

To my fellow Queen’s College alumni, when Anil Nandlall (who has taken the disgrace of public office to a record level) says that Queen’s College people run things, does he speak for you? And if not, what has our silence meant so far, and what is the work to be done?

My deepest condolences to the family and friends of Courtney Crum-Ewing. We must all suffer this unbearable loss with you. Alissa Trotz

 

 

So J if yuh gon mention his name....

Yuh have to Come Clean....

 

Respect the Brother and what he stood for

 

If De Big Racist Hammie can Polish he self

and Come around....What is Holding J Back

So go tek a Shower and wash off all that

AFC Collie Hatred, Indo Centric hatred and complains

yuh got about East Indians in Guyana....

and Duttying yuhself by Spreading Goatshit....

After De Shower....Come Clean

Look at all them QC Jaguar supporting Crum Ewing

Coming out and tell de Nation

to Cast their Vote for AFC-APNU Alliance...

 

Stop being the Only QC Jackass around

J yuh cant Admire, Support or Like Cum Ewing

and not agree 100% with his message he delivered

with his Bull Horn......

J Stop Being a Black Racist ....

Granger said it the Best...

Guyana is currently being Led by a Bunch of JACKASS....

and when The AFC-APNU Team take over on May 11th ...

Guyana would be lead by Jaguars....

 

J are you a Jackass or a Jaguar

 

J is not me or Moses or Ramjattan

or any Coolie man say so...

 

Is Our Next President Call you out....

DAVID GRANGER....

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by caribny:

BTW redux I saw a letter I one of the Guyanese papers condemning the murder of Crum Ewing.  I suspect that the Karimullah, who was one of the signers, is the same Kari who you are now claiming to be a closet PPP.

 

Kari can say whether I am right or wrong.

i commented favorably on Kari's involvement in that very powerful message to the forces of evil in Guyana

 

why would any civilized supporter of the PPP refuse to condemn political murder? . . . in fact, i honestly believe that Donald Ramotar had nothing to do with Crum-Ewing's execution

 

Kari's postings on the coalition have been inconsistent to contradictory . . . he does not feel the lateness of the hour, and i have a problem with that

 

which does not make him a "PPP" . . . closeted or otherwise, but certainly a supporter of the [PPP] status quo

 

you, on the flip side of the same coin, with your antics and antipathy towards "Indo Party II," should understand where i'm coming from

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by caribny:

BTW redux I saw a letter I one of the Guyanese papers condemning the murder of Crum Ewing.  I suspect that the Karimullah, who was one of the signers, is the same Kari who you are now claiming to be a closet PPP.

 

Kari can say whether I am right or wrong.

I answered this on another thread - yes that is me as one of he signers.

Kari
Originally Posted by redux:
Originally Posted by Kari:
. . . You have every right to praise the coalition, and I agree with praising the coalition, and the courage the AFC has displayed in shaking up the Guyanese polity, bastardized as it has been from since Adam and Eve (and now Steve ). . .

what's up with the non sequitur here (again)?

 

didn't i just address this kind of bogus argumentation in my earlier response?

Totally useless response Redux.........why do I even bother to legitimize yours as contributions worth taking seriously. Shed that infantile disposition. Grow up!

Kari
Originally Posted by Kari:
Originally Posted by redux:
Originally Posted by Kari:
. . . You have every right to praise the coalition, and I agree with praising the coalition, and the courage the AFC has displayed in shaking up the Guyanese polity, bastardized as it has been from since Adam and Eve (and now Steve ). . .

what's up with the non sequitur here (again)?

 

didn't i just address this kind of bogus argumentation in my earlier response?

Totally useless response Redux.........why do I even bother to legitimize yours as contributions worth taking seriously. Shed that infantile disposition. Grow up!

i seee u have no clothes

 

if my pointing out that your 'response' is a non sequitur bothers u that much, feel free to clamber up to your bamboo tower and ignore, arite?

FM
Last edited by Former Member

I'm re-posting this (from my response on another thread) to ask Redux about the economic plans (online offered at meetings) by the opposition.

 

 

======================================================

Guyana has had a construction boom for a few years now that was helped partly by the boom in gold prices.

 

The question is whether the PPP's mediocre stewardship of the economy - failing to transform it from a primary-producing income nation to onw of value-added products and services. It hasn't shown much in the way of using its ownership of the airwaves to make telecommunications affordable and efficient by the private sector. It's friends have totally monopolized this area and with a lack of education policies to encourage technology proficiency, all we can do is have a couple of call centers.

 

Given the poor infrastructure and civil institutions - the police and tourism officials - Guyana has failed to take advantage of initiatives on the back-end of sun-n-sand packages and boat cruises.

 

All of this because of a politburo style governance that is stifling innovation and enterprise. The PPP is being fooled by the laundered liquidity floating around the economy. Energy - both hydro and hydro-carbon - are long-gestation projects that require foreign capital and expertise. We are yet to see much returns in this area after a decade when oil prices were going up and up. Now with shale oil production in the US costing less than $40 a barrel Guyana will be faced with a tough situation here.

 

The PPP seems satisfied with the rice-farming areas and the Indian business class (including huckster class businesses) and rely on the sugar belt lethargy when it comes to voting or fear of the PNC.

Kari
Originally Posted by Kari:

I'm re-posting this (from my response on another thread) to ask Redux about the economic plans (online offered at meetings) by the opposition.

 

 

======================================================

Guyana has had a construction boom for a few years now that was helped partly by the boom in gold prices.

 

The question is whether the PPP's mediocre stewardship of the economy - failing to transform it from a primary-producing income nation to onw of value-added products and services. It hasn't shown much in the way of using its ownership of the airwaves to make telecommunications affordable and efficient by the private sector. It's friends have totally monopolized this area and with a lack of education policies to encourage technology proficiency, all we can do is have a couple of call centers.

 

Given the poor infrastructure and civil institutions - the police and tourism officials - Guyana has failed to take advantage of initiatives on the back-end of sun-n-sand packages and boat cruises.

 

All of this because of a politburo style governance that is stifling innovation and enterprise. The PPP is being fooled by the laundered liquidity floating around the economy. Energy - both hydro and hydro-carbon - are long-gestation projects that require foreign capital and expertise. We are yet to see much returns in this area after a decade when oil prices were going up and up. Now with shale oil production in the US costing less than $40 a barrel Guyana will be faced with a tough situation here.

 

The PPP seems satisfied with the rice-farming areas and the Indian business class (including huckster class businesses) and rely on the sugar belt lethargy when it comes to voting or fear of the PNC.

not sure what this has to do with me

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by redux:
Originally Posted by Kari:

I'm re-posting this (from my response on another thread) to ask Redux about the economic plans (online offered at meetings) by the opposition.

 

 

======================================================

Guyana has had a construction boom for a few years now that was helped partly by the boom in gold prices.

 

The question is whether the PPP's mediocre stewardship of the economy - failing to transform it from a primary-producing income nation to onw of value-added products and services. It hasn't shown much in the way of using its ownership of the airwaves to make telecommunications affordable and efficient by the private sector. It's friends have totally monopolized this area and with a lack of education policies to encourage technology proficiency, all we can do is have a couple of call centers.

 

Given the poor infrastructure and civil institutions - the police and tourism officials - Guyana has failed to take advantage of initiatives on the back-end of sun-n-sand packages and boat cruises.

 

All of this because of a politburo style governance that is stifling innovation and enterprise. The PPP is being fooled by the laundered liquidity floating around the economy. Energy - both hydro and hydro-carbon - are long-gestation projects that require foreign capital and expertise. We are yet to see much returns in this area after a decade when oil prices were going up and up. Now with shale oil production in the US costing less than $40 a barrel Guyana will be faced with a tough situation here.

 

The PPP seems satisfied with the rice-farming areas and the Indian business class (including huckster class businesses) and rely on the sugar belt lethargy when it comes to voting or fear of the PNC.

not sure what this has to do with me

Remember this from 6 hours ago.............

 

(ii) call you out on your weak, status quo defending "I'm afraid I'm not seeing the new course for a Guyana from anyone" . . . said with a straight face and all

Kari
Originally Posted by Kari:
Originally Posted by redux:
Originally Posted by Kari:

I'm re-posting this (from my response on another thread) to ask Redux about the economic plans (online offered at meetings) by the opposition.

 

 

======================================================

Guyana has had a construction boom for a few years now that was helped partly by the boom in gold prices.

 

The question is whether the PPP's mediocre stewardship of the economy - failing to transform it from a primary-producing income nation to onw of value-added products and services. It hasn't shown much in the way of using its ownership of the airwaves to make telecommunications affordable and efficient by the private sector. It's friends have totally monopolized this area and with a lack of education policies to encourage technology proficiency, all we can do is have a couple of call centers.

 

Given the poor infrastructure and civil institutions - the police and tourism officials - Guyana has failed to take advantage of initiatives on the back-end of sun-n-sand packages and boat cruises.

 

All of this because of a politburo style governance that is stifling innovation and enterprise. The PPP is being fooled by the laundered liquidity floating around the economy. Energy - both hydro and hydro-carbon - are long-gestation projects that require foreign capital and expertise. We are yet to see much returns in this area after a decade when oil prices were going up and up. Now with shale oil production in the US costing less than $40 a barrel Guyana will be faced with a tough situation here.

 

The PPP seems satisfied with the rice-farming areas and the Indian business class (including huckster class businesses) and rely on the sugar belt lethargy when it comes to voting or fear of the PNC.

not sure what this has to do with me

Remember this from 6 hours ago.............

 

(ii) call you out on your weak, status quo defending "I'm afraid I'm not seeing the new course for a Guyana from anyone" . . . said with a straight face and all

i do

 

but exactly how does your eloquent critique of PPP economic stewardship rebut what i said?

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Kari:
Originally Posted by caribny:

BTW redux I saw a letter I one of the Guyanese papers condemning the murder of Crum Ewing.  I suspect that the Karimullah, who was one of the signers, is the same Kari who you are now claiming to be a closet PPP.

 

Kari can say whether I am right or wrong.

I answered this on another thread - yes that is me as one of he signers.


Yes I vaguely recalled that, but just wanted redux to know that you arent some extreme PPPite.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by redux:
 

you, on the flip side of the same coin, with your antics and antipathy towards "Indo Party II," should understand where i'm coming from


Redux the coalition is often described as a unification of Indian and AFrican political leadership .

 

We know that APNU is the African one.  I will leave it up to you to deduce which party is seen as the Indian focused on.  Clue for you.  It is the party which is hoping to bring INDIAN votes to the coalition!

 

I dont know why you are running yourself hysterical rather than admit that since the arrival of Nagamootoo the AFC's focus has been mainly focused on the rural Indian base, because this is where Nagamootoo's base lies.  Cannot help you if you fail to accept that fact.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Kari:
 

Totally useless response Redux.........why do I even bother to legitimize yours as contributions worth taking seriously. Shed that infantile disposition. Grow up!

Redux seems to be the type of person who is so filled with rage that he has lost the ability to argue his points rationally.  It always is placed within the context of a personal attack.

FM

Redux.... Bhai yuh wrong.....

 

You do not know Kari,

 

When Jagdeo first came to NY as President....

Kari was asked to Introduce him....

 

and the Introduction he got

caused Jagdeo and the PPP to request

that they find a Good PPP ass-licker

to Introduce them in future.

 

So do not Big up yuh self too much.....

because Kari aint hustleing fuh anything.....

he been there.....done that....

if yuh doubt me ....ask CaribJ he will tell you.

 

The Problem I got with CaribJ.....

is he love his Shades....

and that cause him to only see Black.

 

Corbin, Harmond, Basil Williams or Granger

will never do anything wrong,

He Radar Lock in on Indian Leaders only...

Poor Chap....... Other than that he Ok.

 

And he mellowing out now with the Indians in AFC...

because he got no Choice.....

Without Dem Coolie man in AFC Granger is a nobody.

 

 

CaribJ like this Bullying attitude...

and Granger is not a Pig Headed Racist....

so de still got lil problem there.

 

But who wil he run to.....Benschop.... No Way.

 

Granger tell him

in this AFC - APNU Alliance

de Leaders are Jaguar not Jackass....

Jaguar do not wear Blinders or Sun Shade

 

and he got the message now.

Ah bet you he stop Bray now.....

All Dem Goat Shit Nonsense will stop...

 

Printable Bubble Letter J Alphabets to Print

must

Accept the AFC-APNU Team as it is .....

or Go Support PPP or Benschop....

So Dem Blinders must go....

 

 

 

Granger said it the Best...

Guyana is currently being Led by a Bunch of JACKASS....

and when The AFC-APNU Team take over on May 11th ...

Guyana would be lead by Jaguars....

 

J are you a Jackass or a Jaguar

 

J is not me or Moses or Ramjattan

or any Coolie man say so...

 

Is Our Next President Call you out....

DAVID GRANGER....

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Jalil:

Redux.... Bhai yuh wrong.....

 

You do not know Kari,

 

When Jagdeo first came to NY as President....

Kari was asked to Introduce him....

 

and the Introduction he got

caused Jagdeo and the PPP to request

that they find a Good PPP ass-licker

to Introduce them in future.

 

So do not Big up yuh self too much.....

because Kari aint hustleing fuh anything.....

he been there.....done that....

if yuh doubt me ....ask CaribJ he will tell you . . .

 

jalil, you're quite right . . . i don't know Kari; in fact, i don't "know" anybody on this BB beyond what they choose to reveal in their writings here

 

and i certainly would not be stupid enough to accuse him of hanging his mouth for PPP soup with his postings on GNI

 

i re-post what i said earlier on this thread which captures fairly accurately my take on GNI's resident bamboo tower dweller:

 

--------------------

"i commented favorably on Kari's involvement in that very powerful message to the forces of evil in Guyana

 

why would any civilized supporter of the PPP refuse to condemn political murder? . . . in fact, i honestly believe that Donald Ramotar had nothing to do with Crum-Ewing's execution

 

Kari's postings on the coalition have been inconsistent to contradictory . . . he does not feel the lateness of the hour, and i have a problem with that

 

which does not make him a "PPP" . . . closeted or otherwise, but certainly a supporter of the [PPP] status quo

 

you [caribny], on the flip side of the same coin, with your antics and antipathy towards "Indo Party II," should understand where i'm coming from"

--------------------

 

now, what i truly despise in otherwise intelligent people is slack and cowardly argumentation

 

straw men, red herrings and the odd non-sequitur thrown in to gain breathing space or to punch up inane meanderings are not forgivable in my book, and i am constrained to point them out on fundamental principles

 

note that when i do so, i am usually met with moanings about personal attacks, much projection about rage, anger, screaming, etc., etc., (Caribny, especially, provides plenty amusement with this)

 

the one thing these guys do not do is show the BB where i pointed wrong. NOT ONE TIME!

 

They cannot rebut; they simply move on to the next poorly argued dispute they are having with themselves, muttering to all who care to listen that i am being "childish" for insisting on proper standards of discourse

 

i form impressions from aggregate postings, and i take people at their word

 

my BS detector of late is very twitchy

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by redux:
.

 

note that when i do so, i am usually met with moanings about personal attacks, much projection about rage, anger, screaming, etc., etc., .

Redux you NEVER discuss facts.  You personally attack.  And you do so like a mad bull stuck in mud.  Thrashing, heaving and kicking, but getting no where.

 

Argue your point with facts and then maybe you would seem less ridiculous.

 

 

FM
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by redux:
.

the one thing these guys do not do is show the BB where i pointed wrong. NOT ONE TIME!

 

.

We show you all the time, but so demented in rage you are that you don't even see it.

simply not true . . .

 

e.g., i ask Kari why he predicates a full line of 'reasoning' on a non sequitur . . . he doesn't even acknowledge or try to explain his (2nd attempt) obvious dodge, but proceeds to respond to me by fulminating about why and how he will not respond to me

 

crazy shit (also check bold, lol)

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by caribny:

What astonishes me about redux is how much time he spends attacking fellow anti PPPites.  Merely because they exercise a pragmatism while he is lost in idealism.

 

1.  The coalition is a risk.  Firstly because some of the PPP Nagamootoo voters who supported him in 2011 might vote PPP, or simply not vote.  Unable to bring themselves to voting for a PNC led coalition. 

 

Secondly because in any coalition there are always tensions between the bigger and more powerful party, and the smaller one. In Guyana it becomes even worse as some people like Nagamootoo saw some in the PNC as mortal enemies for most of their political life.

 

2. Kari has always spoken about Guyana's economy being taken to the next level.  He is saying that he hasn't heard APNU AFC plans for this.  Is there anything wrong with some one querying about Guyana no longer remaining a basic commodity producer, subject to all the vagaries of global commodity prices, over which it has no control? 

 

.........

 

I feel confident that if either Granger or Nagamootoo engaged us in conversation, we would raise the same concerns, more diplomatically of course.  Indeed Granger seems to spend much of his time on meet and greet tours, and seems to listen to people.  I suspect of people offered suggestions in a polite manner he would listen to them.

 

You are a whiner...glass is half full kind of guy. You will never see the brighter side that this is the most powerful moment to transition our society out of a 70 decades long racial stasis.

 

Pragmatism is not about whining that  you do not see this or that. It is a balance about the benefits to come given what you know. You know Constitution reforms is on the table, local government elections, procurement commission and a revised AML bill and all promised in the first 100 days. Then there is the forensic audit of NICIL, NBS, and grand pirate schemes like the Marriott, Berbice river bridge and complete overhaul of Amalia not to mention reform in our forestry sector.

 

These are monumental changes. Selling this is the key and returns on it is pure political gold. It is easy to grasp, it is sell able and it is real. People can get it digest it and react viscerally because it the immediacy of its impact is there.

 

Add to that the Coalition has an attentive audience. You worry about the minutia not the big picture.  But then again, that is your disposition. If you see caster oil and creme brulee you would take the caster oil  knowing for sure you need a cleansing vs thinking you need a tasty treat. The fact that there is nothing such as a cleansing will not even intervene to mediate your persistent your morose pessimistic disposition

 

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by redux:
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by redux:
.

the one thing these guys do not do is show the BB where i pointed wrong. NOT ONE TIME!

 

.

We show you all the time, but so demented in rage you are that you don't even see it.

simply not true . . .

 

e.g., i ask Kari why he predicates a full line of 'reasoning' on a non sequitur . . . he doesn't even acknowledge or try to explain his (2nd attempt) obvious dodge, but proceeds to respond to me by fulminating about why and how he will not respond to me

 

crazy shit (also check bold, lol)

While you are debating philosophy Kari is looking at the reality of Guyana.  He is saying that while many Indians no longer like the PPP, they aren't so uncomfortable that they will risk the return of the PNC.  Every one is aware that Nagamootoo may not keep the support which he won last time, given the reality of Guyana's ethnic paranoia. 

 

Indeed before Nagamootoo decided to enter into a coalition, he too was anxious about being perceived to being seen as being too close to the PNC.  Indeed the AFC just last year denied that it planned an alliance with the PNC, when the PPP was inciting this as part of its plan to spread racial panic.

 

Now if you have a different view of this than Kari does then you need to provide your evidence, rather than engaging in some nonsensical argument over definition. 

 

You have this habit of getting side tracked into nonsense.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
.

Pragmatism is not about whining that  you do not see this or that..

 

Pragmatism is about analyzing reality and then developing strategies of dealing with it.  What you don't understand is that most people on this planet don't have the time or energy to be high minded. 

 

They do what they perceive to be in their best interests.  If they are reasonably satisfied they don't give two hoots about the larger picture.  So any one who wants their votes will have to come down to their level and display a better ability to deliver to these people that which they want better than the other guy.

 

And yes most Indians see the APNU AFC coalition as a risk, given their apprehensions of the PNC. 

 

And if APNU AFC wins, the PNC supporters will want to get their share that they perceive not to gave received.  Tensions can then develop with the AFC supporters, especially those (Indians) who don't trust the PNC to begin with.

 

So yes there is risk. 

 

Now does one do like you and scream that to make note of this is "whining"?  Or does some one take note of this and develop strategies to mitigate this risk? 

 

If you don't understand this, I am afraid that you are an idealistic liberal arts kid, not an adult who has developed some wisdom over the years.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
.You know Constitution reforms is on the table, local government elections, procurement commission and a revised AML bill and all promised in the first 100 days. Then there is the forensic audit of NICIL, NBS, and grand pirate schemes like the Marriott, Berbice river bridge and complete overhaul of Amalia not to mention reform in our forestry sector.

.

Tell you what if APNU AFC doesn't win then NONE of things will get done.  So the coalition must win, and then it must remain sufficiently coordinated to actually do these things.

 

This isn't whining.  This is about being REAL!

FM
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
.

Pragmatism is not about whining that  you do not see this or that..

 

Pragmatism is about analyzing reality and then developing strategies of dealing with it.  What you don't understand is that most people on this planet don't have the time or energy to be high minded. 

 

They do what they perceive to be in their best interests.  If they are reasonably satisfied they don't give two hoots about the larger picture.  So any one who wants their votes will have to come down to their level and display a better ability to deliver to these people that which they want better than the other guy.

 

And yes most Indians see the APNU AFC coalition as a risk, given their apprehensions of the PNC. 

 

And if APNU AFC wins, the PNC supporters will want to get their share that they perceive not to gave received.  Tensions can then develop with the AFC supporters, especially those (Indians) who don't trust the PNC to begin with.

 

So yes there is risk. 

 

Now does one do like you and scream that to make note of this is "whining"?  Or does some one take note of this and develop strategies to mitigate this risk? 

 

If you don't understand this, I am afraid that you are an idealistic liberal arts kid, not an adult who has developed some wisdom over the years.

 

How terribly interesting. I could have written this myself. One of our Caribj's not so infrequent moments of reason and insight.

 

This is basically all I've been trying to get across to you and others (albeit quite unsuccessfully it seems).

 

I understand you're trying to sell this Coalition and are perhaps constrained at the moment to concede that this is the return of one race domination to the Guyanese State system. The fact that the Coalition insists on not addressing Indian ethnic concerns about the distribution of power in the State apparatus tells me all I need to know. Instead of the racial stalemate being solved with a "just settlement" for the major races, it will be ended by a near total victory by one race over another. This is victory not a comprehensive peace with honor. The terms of defeat will be presented to us shortly. In the mean time we must watch this charade play out. Our mudheads vs. the PNC's chess players.

FM
Originally Posted by Shaitaan:
. . . I understand you're trying to sell this Coalition and are perhaps constrained at the moment to concede that this is the return of one race domination to the Guyanese State system. The fact that the Coalition insists on not addressing Indian ethnic concerns about the distribution of power in the State apparatus tells me all I need to know. Instead of the racial stalemate being solved with a "just settlement" for the major races, it will be ended by a near total victory by one race over another. This is victory not a comprehensive peace with honor. The terms of defeat will be presented to us shortly. In the mean time we must watch this charade play out. Our mudheads vs. the PNC's chess players.

ahhh yesss . . . the appeal to secure Indo-Guyanese "honor" in the face of cunning, ovewhelmingly powerful blackman; the inapposite buzzwords of war and annihilation . . .

 

and we still have nearly 2 months to go till elections

 

what is most revealing here is that, without skipping a beat, Shaitaan turns his own 'logic' on its head - describing the current dispensation as a "racial stalemate"

 

this is what happens to folks when the civilizing aspects of 1st World existence penetrate only skin deep

 

'make it existential' is the criminal regime's Hail Mary

 

these ideological racists and desperate PPP tiefman are abee creatures of the night on a rampage for the duration of this pre-election eclipse

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
.

Pragmatism is not about whining that  you do not see this or that..

 

Pragmatism is about analyzing reality and then developing strategies of dealing with it.  What you don't understand is that most people on this planet don't have the time or energy to be high minded. 

 

They do what they perceive to be in their best interests.  If they are reasonably satisfied they don't give two hoots about the larger picture.  So any one who wants their votes will have to come down to their level and display a better ability to deliver to these people that which they want better than the other guy.

 

And yes most Indians see the APNU AFC coalition as a risk, given their apprehensions of the PNC. 

 

And if APNU AFC wins, the PNC supporters will want to get their share that they perceive not to gave received.  Tensions can then develop with the AFC supporters, especially those (Indians) who don't trust the PNC to begin with.

 

So yes there is risk. 

 

Now does one do like you and scream that to make note of this is "whining"?  Or does some one take note of this and develop strategies to mitigate this risk? 

 

If you don't understand this, I am afraid that you are an idealistic liberal arts kid, not an adult who has developed some wisdom over the years.

Pragmatism is not validating a means to end schema.It is taking what works and using it because it is necessary to address the immediacy of a problem. Pretending you have the time to deliberate on the minutia in a short turn around as the present election is for nitpickers. Losing is not an option.

 

One takes the best of the message and deliver it for the benefit of winning. The message is the simple, general one. We have is a kleptocracy that survives on and aggravates racial tension. It is not ever going to change. The promised of change is on reforms beginning with general constitutional reforms, local government, procurement etc. Trying to examine the means one create institutional fences against racism, or pretending Indians in general will move on rational deliberations to APNU-AFC is pure nonsense. You address those supporters you know that will come because you have determined a win number and you know where you can cherry pick to achieve it.

 

This is campaigning not policy development. Indeed one must have the visage of an underlying profound layer but to say that is concretized and sell it as such is nonsense. It is about delivering a clear, understandable, credible and persistent messages to those who will vote and who will serve to get you over the top. The message will all converge on the idea of change and why not the minutia of why. If asked directly one of course must be able to answer in some coherent way because afterall, it is not build on air.

 

Also, I am a scientist not a liberal arts dilettante.  I also do not do anything half way so petty insults don't get to me. I merely makes me tell you in plainer terms what I think of you and  that you should know that  to this point . You are a whiner...nothing positive comes from you, no directive to solving any problem. What comes from you is what  you think others miss and how good you are at chiding them as if you are god with an omniscient view. When it comes down to any matter, again, you simply a whiner. When you tell me how you think one may achieve positive ends in positive ways I will say otherwise. It has never happened in our dozen or so years arguing over hundreds of issues.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Shaitaan:
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
.

Pragmatism is not about whining that  you do not see this or that..

 

Pragmatism is about analyzing reality and then developing strategies of dealing with it.  What you don't understand is that most people on this planet don't have the time or energy to be high minded. 

 

They do what they perceive to be in their best interests.  If they are reasonably satisfied they don't give two hoots about the larger picture.  So any one who wants their votes will have to come down to their level and display a better ability to deliver to these people that which they want better than the other guy.

 

And yes most Indians see the APNU AFC coalition as a risk, given their apprehensions of the PNC. 

 

And if APNU AFC wins, the PNC supporters will want to get their share that they perceive not to gave received.  Tensions can then develop with the AFC supporters, especially those (Indians) who don't trust the PNC to begin with.

 

So yes there is risk. 

 

Now does one do like you and scream that to make note of this is "whining"?  Or does some one take note of this and develop strategies to mitigate this risk? 

 

If you don't understand this, I am afraid that you are an idealistic liberal arts kid, not an adult who has developed some wisdom over the years.

 

How terribly interesting. I could have written this myself. One of our Caribj's not so infrequent moments of reason and insight.

 

This is basically all I've been trying to get across to you and others (albeit quite unsuccessfully it seems).

 

I understand you're trying to sell this Coalition and are perhaps constrained at the moment to concede that this is the return of one race domination to the Guyanese State system. The fact that the Coalition insists on not addressing Indian ethnic concerns about the distribution of power in the State apparatus tells me all I need to know. Instead of the racial stalemate being solved with a "just settlement" for the major races, it will be ended by a near total victory by one race over another. This is victory not a comprehensive peace with honor. The terms of defeat will be presented to us shortly. In the mean time we must watch this charade play out. Our mudheads vs. the PNC's chess players.

I think the do well in not getting into the mud of race and racial appropriations of power. They must move away from that. Their message is that we picked the right person we have given the constraint. It is not on race but on competence. Race matters but difference to race in decision making suffocate efficacy to practical and reasonable ends. If there are race fears; the message is we will not feed them. Those are social pathologies to be addressed to be addressed but it cannot be addressed with superficial quotas.

 

A society settles its ethnic problems when the foundation is laid so all feel the presence of fairness in the system.  That will come with constitution reforms, decentralization, redistricting, etc so the government is always composed of people t hat are known for their works and are elected by local people who knows of their work. How that is created is not for the APNU or PPP. This is a contract between a people and entities that administrate their offices and t hey should be involved in the forging of it.

FM
Originally Posted by Shaitaan:
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
.

Pragmatism is not about whining that  you do not see this or that..

 

Pragmatism is about analyzing reality and then developing strategies of dealing with it.  What you don't understand is that most people on this planet don't have the time or energy to be high minded. 

 

They do what they perceive to be in their best interests.  If they are reasonably satisfied they don't give two hoots about the larger picture.  So any one who wants their votes will have to come down to their level and display a better ability to deliver to these people that which they want better than the other guy.

 

And yes most Indians see the APNU AFC coalition as a risk, given their apprehensions of the PNC. 

 

And if APNU AFC wins, the PNC supporters will want to get their share that they perceive not to gave received.  Tensions can then develop with the AFC supporters, especially those (Indians) who don't trust the PNC to begin with.

 

So yes there is risk. 

 

Now does one do like you and scream that to make note of this is "whining"?  Or does some one take note of this and develop strategies to mitigate this risk? 

 

If you don't understand this, I am afraid that you are an idealistic liberal arts kid, not an adult who has developed some wisdom over the years.

 

How terribly interesting. I could have written this myself. One of our Caribj's not so infrequent moments of reason and insight.

 .

The difference between me and you is that I see our ethnic anxieties in two ways that you don't.

 

1.  Indians and the PPP are EQUALLY culpable as is the PNC and Africans/mixed.  You scream that only the PNC (and by implication Africans) are to blame.

 

2.  I try to see how these ethnic anxieties can be resolved.  I see Guyana is ONE nation with many different parts.  You see Guyana as a piece of real estate with 70% of the population (those who self identify as Indians or Africans) battling each other, ignoring the fact that BOTH groups will soon no longer dominate.

 

 

Guyana will rise when Guyanese understand that they need to empathize with the anxieties of BOTH major groups.  As you can see I am not deaf to the concerns of Indo Guyanese.  Pity that you completely refuse to acknowledge the concerns of Afro Guyanese, or the role that Indo Guyanese play in creating them.

FM

Shaitaan lets compare the PPP with APNU AFC.

 

PPP selects a black woman who has no political experience and will bring no votes.  Her role will be like that of the First Lady...engaging in a few female empowerment programs and staying well away from issues of race.  Indeed she is likely to be that bourgeois Negro who Hinds refers to who will aways try to negate the fact of race, merely because she is lucky enough to be one of the few black tokens selected by the PPP, and so she doesn't care about the majority of blacks EXCLUDED.

 

APNU AFC.  The PM will be given a role is selecting appointees to a variety of committees, commissions, and state corporations, in addition to being responsible for designing the staffing and structure of the ministries.  He will be assigned two ministries which address Indian security concerns Agriculture (sugar and rice) and National Security (the issue of Indian under representation in the armed forces).  In addition the AFC is guaranteed 40% of the ministries, even though it will most likely not bring in more than 20% of the votes received by the coalition, and certainly no where near 40%, unless the PPP implodes.

 

The PM turns out to be an Indian who is quite popular among the grass roots Indian population, even if they are confused by what he is trying to do.

 

So we have.

 

1.  The PPP which remains an Indian party, assigning blacks to token roles, and making not the slightest acknowledgement of African/mixed ethnic anxieties.  The PPP feels that it can win by raising Indian anxieties about Africans, and clearly doesn't care how that impacts how Africans perceive them.

 

2.  APNU AFC which will represent an African alliance with Indian interests.  While this will be African dominated the Indians (Nagamootoo) will be assigned significant roles, and will also have the power to remove the Africans from power by merely exiting the coalition.  The AFC will have 12 seats. 

 

Given that the prospects of APNU winning 33 seats on its own are a zero probability (this will suggest that the PPP only wins 20 seats) then an AFC exit will trigger a constitutional crisis.

 

Now what power do Africans have over the PPP.

 

Shaitaan, try as you should to be a GUYANESE, in other words attempting to have empathy with BOTH the Indian and African security dilemma.  Because if you do you will see that in PRACTICAL terms the APNU AFC allows more scope for this than does the PPP.

 

 

But of course you as an Indo KKK will never see this, because you care only about spreading racial panic.

 

FACT.  APNU cannot and will NOT have the power that the PNC had, because there will be no tolerance for the blatant rigging which occurred in the Burnham years. 

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
.

A society settles its ethnic problems when the foundation is laid so all feel the presence of fairness in the system.  That will come with constitution reforms, decentralization, redistricting, etc ..

 

 

Any change requires a 2/3 vote and so unless APNU and the PPP cooperate NONE of this will occur.  Has APNU made any mention of this?  I know that the PPP hasn't.

 

 

In the mean time Nagamootoo will have to educate his base on the fact that the agreement that the AFC has with APNU has embedded in it certain safeguards to reduce the incentive for APNU to go on a power drunk spree of ethnic revenge.  He can explain this more diplomatically of course, but that is the language which people in his base will have to hear. 

 

So yes there is risk, but then there are also factors which mitigate this risk, at least in the short term.  As Hinds says pretending as if ethnically based anxieties don't occur in Guyana with the 80% of the population which is  Indian/African and Afro oriented mixed is foolish.

FM
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
.

Also, I am a scientist not a liberal arts dilettante..

Well maybe that is your problem as you don't know that humans don't work like machines and cannot be reduced to algorithms.

 

There is a risk which must be identified and acknowledged.  Once this is done there must be strategies to mitigate this risk, and then this must be communicated to people.

 

Humans act based on emotion, and the most powerful emotion is fear, especially in a society like Guyana where people see themselves as being powerless. And where they feel that they  lack an ability to defend themselves against powerful interests.  But yet feel very vulnerable to these forces. So they cling to the "tribe". 

 

True in 1992, when most Africans voted PNC and not WPA.  Will be true in 2015 when most Indians will vote PPP and not AFC....The trick is to woo enough to vote AFC and you don't do this by disrespecting them.  Because the PPP didn't need Africans to win. APNU AFC will have to have some Indians to win.

 

Sorry if you think that is whining.  Now go back to your computer programming but understand that we are dealing with humans.   You cannot program humans to do what you wish them to do.  They act on their own free will, and often quite irrationally when it is based on fear.  Just ask the impoverished souls of Mississippi why they voted for a man who damned most of them as "Takers".

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
.

Also, I am a scientist not a liberal arts dilettante..

Well maybe that is your problem as you don't know that humans don't work like machines and cannot be reduced to algorithms.

 

There is a risk which must be identified and acknowledged.  Once this is done there must be strategies to mitigate this risk, and then this must be communicated to people.

 

Humans act based on emotion, and the most powerful emotion is fear, especially in a society like Guyana where people see themselves as being powerless. And where they feel that they  lack an ability to defend themselves against powerful interests.  But yet feel very vulnerable to these forces. So they cling to the "tribe". 

 

True in 1992, when most Africans voted PNC and not WPA.  Will be true in 2015 when most Indians will vote PPP and not AFC....The trick is to woo enough to vote AFC and you don't do this by disrespecting them.  Because the PPP didn't need Africans to win. APNU AFC will have to have some Indians to win.

 

Sorry if you think that is whining.  Now go back to your computer programming but understand that we are dealing with humans.   You cannot program humans to do what you wish them to do.  They act on their own free will, and often quite irrationally when it is based on fear.  Just ask the impoverished souls of Mississippi why they voted for a man who damned most of them as "Takers".

I do not know that the human intellect is not reducible to mathematics. Actually, every thing we have done in science so far has been to take the mechanics of the mind and mirror it mathematically in machines. Who know...we may be on the right path. The eventuality may arise when those concentrations of algorithms  themselves spark a consciousness of its own. I do not know how it comes about but that is not impossible. There is nothing special about the mind except its complexity and mathematics is the thread of all complexities simplified so far.

 

We do not need lessons in psychology except they aid the messaging. That is to remove the PPP from office because of their entrenched corruption. Any messaging is to highlight that, offer change from it and propose in simple terms alternatives. The PPP has been so prodigious in their work at robbing us there are many areas to mine such messages. That is the aim of the campaign and its ends are to win. The minutia of government and governing will follow. It is the broad sweeping scopes of our problems and who caused them and that the Opposition will address them.

FM
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
 

We do not need lessons in psychology except they aid the messaging.

So here is a fact.  Whites in West Virginia are considerably poorer than those in Massachussetts. Yet they voted for Romney, who has no time for people who dependent on social supports provided by the Feds. 

 

Mass was one of the few states which went all blue in the last election.  Even liberal states like CA and NY were a fierce red once one looked at regions outside of the metro areas.

 

Now I invite a rational explanation for this behavior.  It is very applicable to Guyana. 

 

Most models would have predicted the opposite result, given that Mass whites pay high taxes and are relatively well off, while the opposite is true for those living in WV.

FM
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by caribny:
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
 

We do not need lessons in psychology except they aid the messaging.

So here is a fact.  Whites in West Virginia are considerably poorer than those in Massachussetts. Yet they voted for Romney, who has no time for people who dependent on social supports provided by the Feds. 

 

Mass was one of the few states which went all blue in the last election.  Even liberal states like CA and NY were a fierce red once one looked at regions outside of the metro areas.

 

Now I invite a rational explanation for this behavior.  It is very applicable to Guyana. 

 

Most models would have predicted the opposite result, given that Mass whites pay high taxes and are relatively well off, while the opposite is true for those living in WV.

Marxists have a nice term for this . . . "False Consciousness"

 

caveat: as with so many (scientific?) things Marx, this concept falls apart under rigorous scrutiny . . . but let's roll with it here since it explains so much in the low-information context

FM
Originally Posted by Stormborn:
 

I do not know that the human intellect is not reducible to mathematics. Actually, every thing we have done in science so far has been to take the mechanics of the mind and mirror it mathematically in machines. Who know...we may be on the right path. The eventuality may arise when those concentrations of algorithms  themselves spark a consciousness of its own. I do not know how it comes about but that is not impossible. There is nothing special about the mind except its complexity and mathematics is the thread of all complexities simplified so far.

 

 

GNI got sauce......

Kari

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